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Hey guys,

I'm trying to build a Dark Angels army and was wondering what people opinion on running several small black night squads backed up by landspeeders, or a bike swarm with grav guns?
I plan to have a large scout squad in the list to support the fast charging units and a Skitarii ally if points permit.

Cheers

black knights should be working with bikers not taken exclusively their totally consistent workers (the black knights i mean) but thats the problem they always preform statistically the same whereas regular bikers can vary

Black Knights are much better in close combat and all have twin-linked, rapidfire plasma talons that are relentless, hammer of wrath, rending, rerollable 3+ save, move 12" a turn and hit and run. They are awesome if you prefer a close combat army, and I've played them to great effect. Expect to lose a few guys to get hot, AV14 and Knights are a lot scarier, but still very top tier especially if you all in some thunderwolf iron priests to cover their weaknesses.

Agtthot wrote:
Expect to lose a few guys to get hot

What? Losing guys that have twin-linked weapons, 3+ armor and usually FNP to Gets Hot is pretty unlikely. On the contrary, expect that you don't lose a single guy to that.

Edit: the chance to take an unsaved wound from Gets Hot for Black Knights is (1/6)*(1/6)*(1/3)*(2/3) which rounds up to about 0,6% per shot. I wouldn't call that very likely.

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

Agtthot wrote:
Expect to lose a few guys to get hot

What? Losing guys that have twin-linked weapons, 3+ armor and usually FNP to Gets Hot is pretty unlikely. On the contrary, expect that you don't lose a single guy to that.

Edit: the chance to take an unsaved wound from Gets Hot for Black Knights is (1/6)*(1/6)*(1/3)*(2/3) which rounds up to about 0,6% per shot. I wouldn't call that very likely.

Ravenwing Apothecaries are 1 per army, so the majority WON'T have feel no pain. 5 guys rapid firing is 10 shots, and I normally play around 25 bikes. This is potentially 50 shots a turn, over 7 turns. When you jink you are only hitting on 6's, and the twin linking is greatly reduced. Overwatching at BS 1-2 depending on if Grim Resolve is working is another increased chance to roll 1's. If you are spamming a huge army of twin linked bikes, you will probably snapfire at at Flying Hive Tyrants and Daemon Princes occasionally as well. It would be nice to use your full BS every single shooting phase, but considering Ravenwing durability is based around jinking, it isn't likely.

Shooting a non-command squad that jinked, overwatched, or shot at a flier - (5/6) * (1/6) * (1/3) - Almost 5% per shot.

I've never played a single game where a guy hasn't died to get hot.

Snap firing doesnt increase your chance of rolling 1s for a Gets Hot result. Its still. 1/36 chance to roll a Gets Hot result on a TL weapon.

 astro_nomicon wrote:
Snap firing doesnt increase your chance of rolling 1s for a Gets Hot result. Its still. 1/36 chance to roll a Gets Hot result on a TL weapon.

It isn't 1/36. You don't have to roll a 1 into a 1 to get hot. You have to miss period, then roll a 1 on the final twin linked roll.

Edit:

In this case, snap firing absolutely does increase your chance of getting hot, because you miss more shots off the first volley of twin linked shots, giving you more chances to roll a 1 on second volley.

Ok I see what you're saying. I still don't think its quite as high as you are making it out to be.

Agtthot wrote:

 astro_nomicon wrote:
Snap firing doesnt increase your chance of rolling 1s for a Gets Hot result. Its still. 1/36 chance to roll a Gets Hot result on a TL weapon.

It isn't 1/36. You don't have to roll a 1 into a 1 to get hot. You have to miss period, then roll a 1 on the final twin linked roll.

Edit:

In this case, snap firing absolutely does increase your chance of getting hot, because you miss more shots off the first volley of twin linked shots, giving you more chances to roll a 1 on second volley.

Not true. To get a Get's Hot, both rolls need to be a one.

If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (including because of BS 6+,orTwin-linked), a Wound is only suffered if the To Hit re-roll is also a 1

So, if the first roll was not a 1, the also part is what prevents the second roll to cause a Gets Hot.

Seems like the overall opinion is that the plasma drags down the units usefulness given all the other buffs (hit and run, render and rerollable saves) and the small unit numbers. Considering each BK is 40pts, losing one to gets hot is HUGE!

This really drags down the armies usefulness. Having expensive units that kick themselves while trying to do too much.

Black Knights are incredible.
2+/2+ jink (darkshroud). 3+ armour. T5. twin-linked plasma. 4 attacks on the charge at S5, rending. Skilled rider. Overwatch at BS2.

Run two squads (one with apothecary and sammael).
Run two Ravenwing support squadrons (typhoons with melta, or hb/ac + darkshrouds).
Run two bombers (and maybe the fighter, it's actually pretty good - ALL have hover capability, and the jink bonus, and automatically arrive turn 2).

The interceptor/supporting fire rule is straight up broken to pieces. YOU CAN FIRE INTERCEPTOR AND OVERWATCH IN THE SAME TURN. I was placed in the position of facing TWO rounds of 'free' S8/S8 melta volleys.

I can't kill the buggers with shooting (2+ re-rolls... argh!). They are risky to assault (you eat plasma overwatch plus supporting fire)... if you get in, they hit and run away and then plasma you next turn. I can't reserve in (interceptor). The force multiplies (darkshrouds) are bastard hard too (jink re-rolls, shrouded, SQUADRON so they have ablative hull points...)

Seriously, these guys are a massive sleeper. They absolutely stuff necrons as they have so little ignores cover (tomb blades, which are fragile to plasma, and one-use S7 AP3 flamer is about it).

Expect to lose some to Gets Hot, but don't expect to care too much, because you will probably still win the game without too much difficulty.

I love black knights but I would recommend two grav squads as well. Most people run 2 BK squads, since they are so expensive it is hard to take more and still fit in the must haves like a support squadron.