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For those looking to build pre-Heresy human armies, the fifth book, Tempest, has the Imperial Militia army list, with an option called Survivors of a Dark Age that allows for neat options along the lines of power armoured mortals toting high-powered weaponry.

 Vermonter wrote:
The thing is, while Mantic is a lot smaller, before Warpath there effectively wasn't ANY viable contender or alternative choice to 40K. So if you didn't like 40K's Gothic fantasy counter-reformation aesthetic, and you wanted to play a game with multiple hard plastic army options, you were just out of luck. Granted, Mantic's armies aren't entirely hard plastic either, but even so, after this KS an alternative will be out there. That's new, at least on this scale.

Maybe not new for very long, with Maelstrom's Edge (although that's skirmish) coming and Gates of Antares starting to show an interest in producing plastic minis. In fact, I hope a number of other companies break the hard plastic sci-fi barrier in the coming years, because I love modding and I love variety.

The other thing about Heresy-era minis coming and Mantic's Warpath line is that it provides the perfect confluence to stage some of future Warhammer's most interesting battles - the pre-Grimdark era of the wars of compliance. I'm pretty much out of 40K now except for getting bits to do mods with, and still enjoying the odd book here and there. But staging compliance war battles vs. Mantic's sci-fi armies might even get me back into buying some GW product. Particularly since I'd do it with an open future in mind, where the triumph of Chaos isn't assured and the Horus Heresy's outcome isn't engraved on a holy stone tablet. I really liked the hope vibe in Horus Rising, before everything fell apart.

It's a shame that GW themselves can't launch an alternative sci-fi line with a completely different flavor. They have the money and resources to do so easily, but they're powerless to try it because of their brand (and business-wise, it wouldn't make any sense), so only companies with much less wherewithal can attempt it.

I was just about to ask "If I want to play a SF mass battle game with plastic infantry and vehicles, and I don't want to play 40K, what are my options?"

There aren't many, are there?

Maybe Spartan's stuff, but is any of it plastic?

And have they stopped changing the rules too frequently?

Is there something else?

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Like I already said, Mantic obviously rushed this and knowingly sacrificed a higher pledge total in order to get some money fast, which suggests that they're desperate for cash.

They almost completely sold out of KoW a month ago, why do you keep saying they're desperate for cash? It's a narrative only you think is true

Two different systems; there might be some crossover but fantasy gamers and sci-fi gamers don't necessarily have to be the same people.


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 dragqueeninspace wrote:
It is far more likely they favor smaller more consistent influxes of work and cash. A huge kickstarter will overwhelm areas of their supply chain (I'm thinking distribution as the obvious one), tool making and CAD->milling probably being the other.

It also makes sense that they would want to run a new KS before the last delivered since the resources at the start of the production sequence (sculpting, art etc) will have finished the last wodge of work while manufacture and distribution are still not finished.

This makes the most sense. They're having KS fund their regular release schedule and it makes more sense to do small Kickstarters that fund a few products versus what we saw with the first few Kickstarters. Ideally this will also allow them to have tighter controls over QC though I won't get my hopes up since what I've seen so far could be done in someone's garage, not what I would expect from a professional organization.

 NTRabbit wrote:
Yeah but then again, how many people (who didn't have inside info) actually saw them ending WHFB as a game and withdrawing all 8th related material from sale? It took rumours and photos of 8th material being stuffed in return to sender boxes, a fortnight before AoS hit retail, before even the pessimists first figured out what was happening

GW are a sequential terrible decision machine, it makes sense for Mantic, Warlord and anyone else wanting to get into the market segment to position their product ready to benefit from the next terrible decision cluster.

Yep, if nothing else GW are ridiculously good at doubling down on bad decisions.

GW are wholly behind AoS type gameplay (or at least Rountree is) and do see it as the future. 40k is already most of the way there towards AoS so it wouldn't take much of a push to take it over that edge. From what I've heard from internal sources, the poor sales of AoS are being blamed on staff rather than the product.

Like I say, it's pure speculation on my part, but it fits a lot of what I've been seeing. Warpath was brought forward and done a lot quicker than normal. There was no marketing campaign like every other post-KoW1 KS, it was done before they had core rules to show off like they had in every other KS and obviously it was way sooner than anticipated. Mantic also seem to make sure that they have at least one Open Day before a KS campaign so that they can show things off and have seminars about the upcoming KS. That didn't happen this time so something made Mantic bring it forward and last time they did that it was because Ronnie knew that AoS was coming and they had to launch to compete with it.

From the GW side, we know that GW are wholly behind AoS and do not see its flaws. It's the style of game they've been playing in the studio even before AoS was a concept (FORGE THAT NARRATIVE - WHO NEEDS POINTS) and comments from the shareholder meeting confirm that they're very happy with it. I've been told that poor sales are being blamed on staff, so they're not recognising that it's not a very good game and we know that they believe customers will buy anything that they release, regardless of gameplay quality. They don't care about losing customers as long as they keep the "collectors" on board, so 8th edition 40k being made into an AoS clone doesn't seem far fetched to me. They might not destroy the setting or try to embarrass people with older armies by giving them joke rules (HAHA IF YOU HAVE A MOUSTACHE YOU GET TO RE-ROLL DICE) but I really wouldn't dismiss them switching the system over.

From Mantics side I'm sure they're well aware that they don't have as much cross-sales opportunity as they did with WHFB to KoW, but if even a fraction of 40k players make the switch then it'll be a bigger influx of customers than even the one following KoW 2nd ed.

Edit: It's far from an exact science, but KoW groups on Facebook have seen about an influx of about 1500 members from WHFB groups that have about 7000 members (though a number of those may have quit the WHFB groups first). If that's indicative of the general population then you're looking at a good 20% of the WHFB population making the switch which tallies up with anecdotes that I've seen. The 40k groups have 20,000 members so even an 8% switch would net Mantic more customers from 40k to WP than WHFB to KoW.

Why are people discussing a possible AoS-ification of 40k? I don't see that as a possibility, given that 40k is selling well and their approach right now is working... Basically the polar opposite of Fantasy before the reboot. HH might be similar, but that won't impact 40k.

Just my idle speculation/theory for why Warpath has come about quickly.

I wouldn't be so sure about 40k working. We know that GWs sales have been dropping year on year and while a good portion of that will have been WHFB sales, that's not to say that they're not also seeing a smaller drop in 40k sales.

I don't recall seeing anything in the last few years of financials that said anything about 40k being in growth (actually I think I did basic thought experiments based on a bit of insider knowledge of the other game systems that suggested it was also in decline for 2 of the last 3 years - the other one didn't have enough info to do it).

As someone who writes financial commentary for companies, if 40k (insert any company's flagship product here) were growing, it would be stated clearly in the report, front and centre.

 Alpharius wrote:
Many of us really did envision this as a serious contender for 40K and GW.

9 days in (12 to go), I thought we'd be WAY past $250K.

It's doing like an order of magnitude better than Maelstrom's Edge, but that thing was stillborn.


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 MasterSlowPoke wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Like I already said, Mantic obviously rushed this and knowingly sacrificed a higher pledge total in order to get some money fast, which suggests that they're desperate for cash.

They almost completely sold out of KoW a month ago, why do you keep saying they're desperate for cash? It's a narrative only you think is true

Not only KoW rulebooks, but army sets, too. Basilean and Goblin army sets. Yeah.

There's zero evidence that Mantic needs "money fast".

 judgedoug wrote:
It's doing like an order of magnitude better than Maelstrom's Edge, but that thing was stillborn.

That's a colorful way of putting it. To be fair, Maelstrom's Edge was completely brand new. Warpath has been building a fan base, as well as at least 70% of the product that they're currently selling on this campaign, through smaller releases over several years. ME didn't have a hugely successful kickstarter campaign - it's starting to look like the days of hugely successful Wargame kickstarters (as opposed to boardgames) may be over - but its creators are still plugging away at it. Give it time.

 judgedoug wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Many of us really did envision this as a serious contender for 40K and GW.

9 days in (12 to go), I thought we'd be WAY past $250K.

It's doing like an order of magnitude better than Maelstrom's Edge, but that thing was stillborn.

2 + 2 = 14!

 judgedoug wrote:

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Like I already said, Mantic obviously rushed this and knowingly sacrificed a higher pledge total in order to get some money fast, which suggests that they're desperate for cash.

They almost completely sold out of KoW a month ago, why do you keep saying they're desperate for cash? It's a narrative only you think is true

Not only KoW rulebooks, but army sets, too. Basilean and Goblin army sets. Yeah.

There's zero evidence that Mantic needs "money fast".

Probably about the same amount of evidence as GW is going to "AoS-ify" 40K!

 agnosto wrote:

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Like I already said, Mantic obviously rushed this and knowingly sacrificed a higher pledge total in order to get some money fast, which suggests that they're desperate for cash.

They almost completely sold out of KoW a month ago, why do you keep saying they're desperate for cash? It's a narrative only you think is true

Two different systems; there might be some crossover but fantasy gamers and sci-fi gamers don't necessarily have to be the same people.

Got nothing to do with crossover or same people, being sold out of all the first print run rule books and much of the second, and a lot of armies - remember this is after all the KS backer product had been ringfenced - shows Mantic have plenty of retail profits flowing in just from KoW. ie there is no cash shortage

 NTRabbit wrote:

Got nothing to do with crossover or same people, being sold out of all the first print run rule books and much of the second, and a lot of armies - remember this is after all the KS backer product had been ringfenced - shows Mantic have plenty of retail profits flowing in just from KoW. ie there is no cash shortage

Well, no. None of that actually shows that at all. And is pretty speculative, at that.

 Vermonter wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
It's doing like an order of magnitude better than Maelstrom's Edge, but that thing was stillborn.

That's a colorful way of putting it. To be fair, Maelstrom's Edge was completely brand new. Warpath has been building a fan base, as well as at least 70% of the product that they're currently selling on this campaign, through smaller releases over several years. ME didn't have a hugely successful kickstarter campaign - it's starting to look like the days of hugely successful Wargame kickstarters (as opposed to boardgames) may be over - but its creators are still plugging away at it. Give it time.

I would say the days of hugely successful kickstarter campaigns for any old garbage (Sedition Wars) are over, which is why Medge failed so hard.

My point was Alpharius' quote "Many of us really did envision this as a serious contender for 40k and GW" which is what the perceived tagline and goal of the "NEXT-GEN!!1!1" Medge was, and that fell flat on it's face at, what, 70 grand? If Warpath ended today with 250 grand, by Alpharius' own deduction, Medge is a serious contender for perhaps, the popularity of Void 1.1 in 2003; it's rules and design decisions are certainly the spiritual successor


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 Alpharius wrote:
2 + 2 = 14!

Sorry buddy, you made the false equivalency. If 250k is not a 40k Contender, then my analogy of Medge being a Void 1.1 Contendor is pretty spot on

These arguments would sure be easier to have if Mantic were a publicly traded company and had to publish their earnings. It would probably do wonders for their creative output, too, like it did for GW's.

 Alpharius wrote:
Probably about the same amount of evidence as GW is going to "AoS-ify" 40K!

Man, I really hope they do. AoS is incredibly fun, and the death of Warhammer meant that I have now tripled my KoW player pool at the FLGS _and_ have awesome AoS models and the most fun beer and pretzels game GW has released ever. I've dropped a few hundred on Stormcast releases, I can't imagine how much I'd drop on an AoS 40k!

I'm sorry, Judgedoug. I didn't know that MEdge killed your father. I'd call their work stillborn garbage if they hurt my family, too.

judgedoug wrote:
Not only KoW rulebooks, but army sets, too. Basilean and Goblin army sets. Yeah.

And people try to tell parents that wargaming is a brain-boosting hobby.

judgedoug wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
2 + 2 = 14!

Sorry buddy, you made the false equivalency. If 250k is not a 40k Contender, then my analogy of Medge being a Void 1.1 Contendor is pretty spot on

I think it was more along the lines of 'what the unmentionable has Maelstrom's Edge got to do with Warpath slowly trundling to a stop?'

At least, that's what's going through my head.

Yup, that's what was going for too.

I hope Mantic figures out some stuff soon and can turn this around.

Competition for GW and 40K is a good thing!

I don't know what would be a greater disaster, GW dropping the 40k line (if we're talking rewinding the timeline to the Heresy, that's a lot of xenos that don't even exist as factions yet) or the current lot of local players switching over to Mantic.

Are we really saying that a $250K KS qualifies Warpath as a 40K Challenger?

If it's there, ready to absorb players when (if) 40k is killed off, then yes, it's a challenger, regardless of how much money it makes today.

I don't think so - but I thought WP was supposed to be one?

There are enough disgruntled/dissatisfied 40k players out there that it could be one....

 Vermis wrote:
I think it was more along the lines of 'what the unmentionable has Maelstrom's Edge got to do with Warpath slowly trundling to a stop?'

At least, that's what's going through my head.

Oh, it's simple, see, this was said:

 Alpharius wrote:
Many of us really did envision this as a serious contender for 40K and GW. 9 days in (12 to go), I thought we'd be WAY past $250K.

Which is interesting, because another game, Medge, was actually billed as the next 40k, and one can see how well that did.

You seem to be taking these things way too personally.

Maybe take it down a notch or two?

And FYI, I've got absolutely zero to do with MEdge.

@Judgedoug - I apologize for being obnoxious in my last post. My only complaint with your comments is the tone, which feels a bit like Chaos dancing on the ashes of Mankind after everything's over. I don't see grounds for schadenfreude over Maelstrom's Edge and their KS campaign. Unless you feel threatened by MEdge as a Mantic supporter, which I definitely don't as a supporter of both, why the venom?

Honestly, I'm pretty happy to see any new sci-fi 28mm lines coming out, especially in hard plastic. Even if I have no interest in the rules or universe (although I usually do), it's more conversion fodder for the games I do play. I've even made use of Sedition Wars figures to improve my Mantic ones (specifically a 2nd Gen). Relying on 40K plastics alone for conversions has gotten really old, and given the Gothic specificity of much of what they make, really tedious.

 Alpharius wrote:
You seem to be taking these things way too personally.

Maybe take it down a notch or two?

Haha, I would say the same about you and Vermonter I'm just pointing out these totally subjective definitions of success. Hell of a moving target when one can claim 70k is a success and 250k is disappointing But I personally hold no cows as sacred

 judgedoug wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
You seem to be taking these things way too personally.

Maybe take it down a notch or two?

Haha, I would say the same about you and Vermonter I'm just pointing out these totally subjective definitions of success. Hell of a moving target when one can claim 70k is a success and 250k is disappointing But I personally hold no cows as sacred

Point taken and acknowledged. But see my last post. I'm trying to reign it in.

The last point I'd like to make on the subject is that it isn't necessary to denigrate MEdge to argue that Warpath has merit. They're different products at different stages. I like and support both.

 Vermonter wrote:
@Judgedoug - I apologize for being obnoxious in my last post. My only complaint with your comments is the tone, which feels a bit like Chaos dancing on the ashes of Mankind after everything's over. I don't see grounds for schadenfreude over Maelstrom's Edge and their KS campaign. Unless you feel threatened by MEdge as a Mantic supporter, which I definitely don't as a supporter of both, why the venom?

Honestly, I'm pretty happy to see any new sci-fi 28mm lines coming out, especially in hard plastic. Even if I have no interest in the rules or universe (although I usually do), it's more conversion fodder for the games I do play. I've even made use of Sedition Wars figures to improve my Mantic ones (specifically a 2nd Gen). Relying on 40K plastics alone for conversions has gotten really old, and given the Gothic specificity of much of what they make, really tedious.

Nothing to apologize for, I don't really take toy soldiers very seriously. Honestly, I wish Medge all the best, but the rules and models just aren't for me, and that's a deadly combo. re: Warpath, the models _are_ for me - they are evocative of a badass Saturday morning cartoon and for some reason that strikes some chord that makes me want them, lots and lots of them. I could honestly care less about the Warpath rules. If anything, Gates of Antares has me quite excited after Manchu's overview of the ruleset.

And yes, I agree about any 28mm sci-fi plastics. I can't stand 40k aesthetics any longer, honestly.

 Vermonter wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
You seem to be taking these things way too personally.

Maybe take it down a notch or two?

Haha, I would say the same about you and Vermonter I'm just pointing out these totally subjective definitions of success. Hell of a moving target when one can claim 70k is a success and 250k is disappointing But I personally hold no cows as sacred

Point taken and acknowledged. But see my last post. I'm trying to reign it in.

The last point I'd like to make on the subject is that it isn't necessary to denigrate MEdge to argue that Warpath has merit. They're different products at different stages. I like and support both.

Agreed!

It feels goofy and petty to drag MEdge in here to somehow show that Warpath is doing...great?

I want a serious competitor to challenge GW and 40K.

I was thinking Warpath might be it - sorry, my mistake!

The truth of it all is that the GW will make more money in pre-orders for the Horus Heresy plastics than Mantic will make in a year.

They're going to sell a gak load of Horus Heresy plastics.

I dunno if I'm willing to give Mantic another chance unless they can show me some Rebels HIPS. Beyond that, nothing really gets my juices flowing.