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I've played against friends, and they've had some hard to read dice. Black / Gold marble, with yellow pips. And small. That's just annoying, no matter how well you like your dice.

A dice cup solves most any issue of "fairness" in rolling. Hence the reason that backgammon requires them... at least if you're gambling. A proper dice cup has a lip on the inside of the mouth, that encourages the diced to tumble upon exit.

If a tournament has concerns for dice fairness, then a simple measure would be to require all dice to be rolled from a cup, with a minimum of 3 full shakes before the roll-out. Unless they're actually weighted.

Ain't nobody got time to train a roll that way.

 ultimentra wrote:

 Dramagod2 wrote:

 ultimentra wrote:
My pet peeve is when people simply won't allow me to touch their dice because of superstitions or just because they don't want me to. I have a regular opponent, we both use chessex I think, and I usually roll from average to gakky. His rolls are consistently good, I've played against him multiple times and he rarely fails morale, but his rolling to hit is also way above average consistently. His scatter also hits 5/6 times it feels like. And yet he absolutely will not allow me to touch his dice, simply because "they're his dice".

I just don't get people like this. It's almost depressing to play against him because of the tactic he uses and how good his dice rolls are in comparison to mine. I could wipe the floor with any army if my dice rolled as good as his on a consistent basis. I've bought two cubes sets of chessex dice because the first one rolled like gak. Second one rolls slightly more towards average, but still pretty bad. Or at least, it's bad in my eyes because I can't consistently make 18 or 19/20 3+ to hit rolls.

He may very well be cheating, does he constantly use different dice for different things? I think it even says in the rules that opponents should be allowed to use eachothers dice.

Nope, he uses the same light blue dice with white pips for everything. I just think his dice roll high and he gets lucky on Ld tests, and doesn't want to let his opponents take away his advantage. So while It's not cheating per se, its just being kind of a dick because he knows they roll high and doesn't want to share his "luck". On the rules requiring you being to use opponents dice well, apparently that's become a matter of preference with some people. I played this guy last week, and I think that's probably the last time I'll be setting up a game with him.

Have you tried "forgetting" your dice and ask to use his?

 Dramagod2 wrote:
I know its been a few weeks but my LGS just released official rules for all events, most of which are pretty typical, but then there's this little paragraph...

"Players are required to bring a set of either Chessex 12mm dice or a 12mm dice cube from Games-workshop. These are the only dice allowed to be used during any Event, Tournament, or Campaign. Failure to do so will result in a game loss. Repeated attempts will result in being Disqualified."

To me it just seems a little ridiculous. Not only does it affect me and the few others who switched to the casino or square cornered dice, but everyone that uses their own dice, including people who've bought army specific dice for themselves. I've never heard of anyplace else having a restriction like this and it just seems pointless. Has anyone else encountered something like this?

Sounds like your LGS is trying to sell dice. Chessex dice are okay, but they have roubded edges and aren't that great on soft table tops. Seems like your LGS just whats to move dice.

SJ

 Dramagod2 wrote:
To me it just seems a little ridiculous. Not only does it affect me and the few others who switched to the casino or square cornered dice, but everyone that uses their own dice, including people who've bought army specific dice for themselves. I've never heard of anyplace else having a restriction like this and it just seems pointless. Has anyone else encountered something like this?

That's just beyond ridiculous. People should be able to use any dice they want to (as long as they properly weighted).

SG

 Dramagod2 wrote:
I was curious is anyone knew of any tournaments or had local groups that require you to play with round edged, pipped dice?


I recently switched dice after reading this article. http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/That's_How_I_Roll_-_A_Scientific_Analysis_of_Dice
The issue has been making recent waves so I was curious to see what people here thought. Thanks!

I have seen no requirements for using ____ dice or disallowing ____ dice, no.

Do you let your opponent use them? I don't see how wanting to use a more normal distribution dice is cheating. However, as mentioned, for casino dice to "work", you need to toss them and have them bounce twice. Right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ultimentra wrote:
My pet peeve is when people simply won't allow me to touch their dice because of superstitions

Among RPGers, this is common.

Among wargamers, this just makes me suspect your dice. I've had a few times recently playing new opponents where I rolled an unusual number of 5's and 6's. After the last event, I then pushed them across the table for the other guy to roll his saves. He appreciated that, rolled like gak, and I rolled average the rest of the game.

I wouldn't attend the event.

 Dramagod2 wrote:

"Players are required to bring a set of either Chessex 12mm dice or a 12mm dice cube from Games-workshop. These are the only dice allowed to be used during any Event, Tournament, or Campaign. Failure to do so will result in a game loss. Repeated attempts will result in being Disqualified."

I wouldn't play and I'd take my business elsewhere after telling the owner why. But then, I'm blunt and can go months between getting in games.

 kronk wrote:

 Dramagod2 wrote:

"Players are required to bring a set of either Chessex 12mm dice or a 12mm dice cube from Games-workshop. These are the only dice allowed to be used during any Event, Tournament, or Campaign. Failure to do so will result in a game loss. Repeated attempts will result in being Disqualified."

I wouldn't play and I'd take my business elsewhere after telling the owner why. But then, I'm blunt and can go months between getting in games.

The problem is that it's the only shop in my area and it actually has a pretty nice strong group, I don't have a personally problem with anyone there and the owner/manager is a good guy as well. The whole thing started when I posted that article about the dice discrepencies to the group FB page and it cause a stir. Some people seem to think that its cheating because (according to the article) it gives an advantage to the player using the correctly weighted dice. I don't see how it can be an advantage to have dice that work like theyre supposed to. In my opinion, if someone chooses to use chessex dice they can do that, if they roll a statistically inordinate amount of ones that's the player cheating themselves, not me cheating for bringing dice that I know roll evenly. The article cause a big argument among various players, some being on my side and some not. The manager (he's not the owner as its a satellite of a store about an hour away) did seem more to the other side and made this rule to make it "fair" but I don't see anything fair about it. Below is the exact reason given by the manager:

"This is why most of the time games require rounded corner dice to be played so if everyone rolls them then they are at the same chances of failure and success. As soon as someone comes in and rolls some other type of dice then it seems clear that the player is trying to "increases" his/her odds of play and have technically advantage against another player. It is simple, 1 type of dice used in official games with no exceptions."

to which I replied

"This makes absolutely no sense. Dice are supposed to present an equal chance of rolling on all sides. Why should someone who has dice that actually roll statistacally average be penalized just because other don't. Dice are dice and having ones that roll correctly shouldn't be against the rules. If other people feel their rounded corner dice roll better then they can use them but you won't find me complaining when they have a better chance of passing leadership or getting preferred enemy rerolls from increased number of ones. Having dice that roll correctly isn't the same as having loaded dice, I don't see why anyone shouldn't be allowed to use them. Basically you're saying that since some people have defective dice that don't roll the way a die (any die) is supposed to roll, that we all should use defective dice?"

to which he replied

"If they are all defective then it clearly isn't a defect but a design choice. Either way several different gaming events force transparent rounded edge dice for tournament use and for the most part I try to inform players of that fact, what you do at home and in a casual game is up to you but in an event all players will be using the same type and size of dice so no player is trying to gain a technical edge. The shop has plenty of loaner pairs for those who need them until they can provide their own. Nice fair environment."

That was the final word on the matter. As you can see they've offered the use of loaner dice so I really don't think they're trying to gauge customers or sell dice. Plus, they really are nice people so I don't think there is anything malicious about it. I just think the the reasoning is a little off base.

In terms of priorities, I think most events would put this near the bottom of the list, focusing more on formations/Unbound.

 Dramagod2 wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 Dramagod2 wrote:

"Players are required to bring a set of either Chessex 12mm dice or a 12mm dice cube from Games-workshop. These are the only dice allowed to be used during any Event, Tournament, or Campaign. Failure to do so will result in a game loss. Repeated attempts will result in being Disqualified."

I wouldn't play and I'd take my business elsewhere after telling the owner why. But then, I'm blunt and can go months between getting in games.

The problem is that it's the only shop in my area and it actually has a pretty nice strong group, I don't have a personally problem with anyone there and the owner/manager is a good guy as well. The whole thing started when I posted that article about the dice discrepencies to the group FB page and it cause a stir.

Fair enough. I still say it's dumb, but that's not my play group, fortunately.

 Dramagod2 wrote:
Either way several different gaming events force transparent rounded edge dice for tournament use....

While I can understand the transparent requirement to remove the possibility of someone rocking up with weighted dice, transparent dice can be really hard to read on the table, and I would avoid any event with such a requirement as a result.

If they're really that concerned about dice equality, a better solution than stipulating dice brands would be to provide compulsory dice for the event as a part of the tournament pack.

 kronk wrote:

 ultimentra wrote:
My pet peeve is when people simply won't allow me to touch their dice because of superstitions

Among RPGers, this is common.

Among wargamers, this just makes me suspect your dice. I've had a few times recently playing new opponents where I rolled an unusual number of 5's and 6's. After the last event, I then pushed them across the table for the other guy to roll his saves. He appreciated that, rolled like gak, and I rolled average the rest of the game.

For me, my apprehensions about letting other people use my stuff (dice, templates, etc.) is less about superstition and more about making sure I don't lose anything. I like my blue Koplow dice, and I don't want to lose any of them.

I've been using large, squared poker dice for a while, along with 12mm Chessex type, and I *feel* better about them compared to the tiny GW dice. I use a big poker dice cup to mix them prior to rolling, so I think that's plenty fair.

But now, I'm interested in "precision" backgammon dice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:
If they're really that concerned about dice equality, a better solution than stipulating dice brands would be to provide compulsory dice for the event as a part of the tournament pack.

Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

Standard, translucent 12mm dice set should be included in the tournament price and pack. That gets everybody using the exact same dice for the event, with no question over fairness or tampering.

This thread makes me worried about how my dice aren't all the same size...

The big bummer for me isn't even the way they roll, but the fact that a persons dice are usually an expression of the player. Everyone loves having their own unique dice. It's just a shame to lose that.

I use mostly GW Munitorum and 4th Ed (?) Special Edition dice as I got them for a good price.

I love the straight edge on the GW Munitorum dice and being "official" GW merch, people are rather hesitant to complain...except how the 2 and 5 look similar.


Unless loaded dice, people should be able to use whatever the hell they want, IMHO. Adds personality and theme to your army. Just roll openly, and don't have specific dice for specific types of rolls. What I mean by that is you don't use the same 2 dice for every leadership roll etc. That is just shady as hell, superstition be damned.

That Dakka article gets a lot of people talking... but it seems very faulty to me.

There is no clear reason given why Chessex dice should roll more 1's than any other number, let alone TWICE the number of 1's expected. The dice would need to exhibit clearly visible and uniform deformities for this to occur.

Yes, round-cornered dice aren't made with precision. But equally there is no method to the non-precision to which they are made. Given the creation process is extremely random (tumbling dice in a steel drum until the paint wears off) there is nothing which should favor one side any more than others. Your dice will end up imprecise, but all imprecise in different ways, so that over a cube of dice it evens out.

Square edged dice are really only used at casinos. There they are used in a very controlled environment - you are required to throw your dice in a very specific way, on a very specific type of surface. After a few hours the dice are considered 'worn out' and replaced. None of those conditions are met when playing wargames - where they're being tumbled out of your hand on to terrain/miniatures, bouncing around in your carry-case... As Ghaz said: "a precision pair of calipers that can measure down to the nanometer is wasted if you use them as a hammer". IMO there is far higher chance of square-edged dice being purposefully abused than round-edged dice.

The other side is pure confirmation bias. I've heard multitudes of players bemoan how their dice roll way more 1's or 6's than they should... yet no-one ever exclaims that their dice consistently roll 3's. You're going to notice the successes or failures more.


As for your games store... Ask the owner if he really wants to alienate customers based on the contents of one article written by some guy on the internet. Point out that DakkaDakka articles can be edited by anyone. Ask if it is genuinely in order to counter a problem that has been encountered at the store - and if so, couldn't it be handled better by simply banning or just shaming the player who is stupid enough to use weighted dice.

For a LOT of players, selection of dice is actually a big deal... theres a reason Chessex sells dice in a billion color combinations. Having dice that match your army is a point of pride for a lot of people. Mandating that players buy a product they don't want to fix a problem that doesn't exist is shooting themselves in the foot.

The solution, if the TO/store organiser really cares that much, is for THEM to provide dice for use at events. Dice there are OPTIONAL - the TO can require that particular players use dice, or require players to swap dice, if needed. But its not a general rule that applies to everyone.

Trasvi wrote:

Yes, round-cornered dice aren't made with precision. But equally there is no method to the non-precision to which they are made.

That really depends on at which point in the process the imprecision is introduced. Mass-produced plastic dice are cast in a mould. If it's that moulding process that results in an imbalanced die, then every die that comes out of that mould will potentially be identically imbalanced.

Is there a reason why we're still arguing about physical dice when we can just make a dice app that is within extremely small error margins of true randomness? If you're concerned about your dice not being accurate then just get rid of the physical dice entirely.

 insaniak wrote:

Trasvi wrote:

Yes, round-cornered dice aren't made with precision. But equally there is no method to the non-precision to which they are made.

That really depends on at which point in the process the imprecision is introduced. Mass-produced plastic dice are cast in a mould. If it's that moulding process that results in an imbalanced die, then every die that comes out of that mould will potentially be identically imbalanced.

True. Potentially. But on the other hand, both precision and rounded dice are made cast from a mould at some point; and being cast from a mould is the most reliably precise part of the entire procedure as the moulds are going to be CNC machined steel.
The imprecision in rounded dice comes from the polishing mechanism - rolling the dice around in a tumbler until the corners are rounded, the paint remains only in the pips and the faces are polished.


If every chessex dice were identically balanced it would be visible.

If every chessex dice were identically imbalanced to the point they roll 30% 1's, then it should be SO visibly obvious that the dice look like small pyramids rather than cubes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
Is there a reason why we're still arguing about physical dice when we can just make a dice app that is within extremely small error margins of true randomness? If you're concerned about your dice not being accurate then just get rid of the physical dice entirely.

1 - In my experience, using apps to replace physical wargaming tools slows down the game immensely.

2 - Its trivial to write a 'random' dice app that is not uniformly random. And you can't tell this until you're looking at the source code. Not talking about objections to pseudorandomness, I mean apps which purposefully roll only 10% 1's and 25% 6's. So you have to decide between your opponent which dice app you'll use, watch them install it from the app store (in case someone has decompiled, edited and recompiled the app), and then start playing. At which point you're back to 'you must use chessex dice to play'

Trasvi wrote:


1 - In my experience, using apps to replace physical wargaming tools slows down the game immensely.

2 - Its trivial to write a 'random' dice app that is not uniformly random. And you can't tell this until you're looking at the source code. Not talking about objections to pseudorandomness, I mean apps which purposefully roll only 10% 1's and 25% 6's. So you have to decide between your opponent which dice app you'll use, watch them install it from the app store (in case someone has decompiled, edited and recompiled the app), and then start playing. At which point you're back to 'you must use chessex dice to play'

If I suspected someone of actually putting forth that much work to cheat, I proly wouldnt play them anyway.

That said, couple years back at my old FLGS we did have a guy get caught using weighted die (he put regular die in his oven and cooked them a bit), so I can see TO's wanting to regulate that, but I agree with the previous posts, if they require you to use certain dice they should be part of the tourny package.

I honestly have a lot of stuff going on in life, and I just have a box with my modeling and gaming tools and I grab that, a box with army in it, and a codex and rulebook and head out. I have a cloth bag with all kinds of different d6s from different sets I had for DnD, board games, and boxes I have and even ones friends pitched in to add more random ones to my bag. There are all kinds and sizes in there and nobody has ever had a problem with me using different ones. Admittedly I open it up and theyre welcome to use it if they want and I have enough I'm glad to use em as markers and stuff but I've honestly never noticed a difference using one kind or another.

Trasvi wrote:
Yes, round-cornered dice aren't made with precision.

They could be, depending on how the die was designed, etc.



Precision Backgammon dice run $20+, depending on size - about the same as Vegas Craps dice.
http://www.zontikgames.com/backgammon-precision-dice-saffron.html

Note how these are flat vs drilled pips, for example. Translucent, so you can see it hasn't been weighted / drilled, etc.

Trasvi wrote:
That Dakka article gets a lot of people talking... but it seems very faulty to me.

There is no clear reason given why Chessex dice should roll more 1's than any other number, let alone TWICE the number of 1's expected. The dice would need to exhibit clearly visible and uniform deformities for this to occur.

You're forgetting that the pips on chessex dice are drilled out which is what truly leads to the discrepancies in rolls. The rounded edges just amplify the effect of the weighted side by allowing the dice to roll easier. Dice with drilled pips have one pip on the 1 side but 6 on the opposite six side, so whatever the weight of a drilled pip is, the six side is five times that weight lighter than the one side.

Clear Reason

 Dramagod2 wrote:

You're forgetting that the pips on chessex dice are drilled out which is what truly leads to the discrepancies in rolls. The rounded edges just amplify the effect of the weighted side by allowing the dice to roll easier. Dice with drilled pips have one pip on the 1 side but 6 on the opposite six side, so whatever the weight of a drilled pip is, the six side is five times that weight lighter than the one side.

Clear Reason

Except that should actually result in them rolling more 6s, as the heavier 1 face is going to be more likely to wind up on the bottom.

So it would seem that, if the perceived phenomenon of Chessex dice teending to roll 1s is actually a thing (and anecdotal evidence certainly says it is ) then there has to be something else going on that counteracts the weight discrepancy from the drilled holes and results in the 6 face being the heaviest.

I have a fairly big dice collection. It's a mix of chessex dice, casino dice that I've picked up over the years, and other random d6's that I've picked up. Some are from other games, some are from GW's Board games (such as the execution force) and some of them are just random (like how I have Cygnar Dice that I picked up at my LGS). I've never really noticed any particular difference in the dice, besides cosmetic ones.

 insaniak wrote:

 Dramagod2 wrote:

You're forgetting that the pips on chessex dice are drilled out which is what truly leads to the discrepancies in rolls. The rounded edges just amplify the effect of the weighted side by allowing the dice to roll easier. Dice with drilled pips have one pip on the 1 side but 6 on the opposite six side, so whatever the weight of a drilled pip is, the six side is five times that weight lighter than the one side.

Clear Reason

Except that should actually result in them rolling more 6s, as the heavier 1 face is going to be more likely to wind up on the bottom.

So it would seem that, if the perceived phenomenon of Chessex dice teending to roll 1s is actually a thing (and anecdotal evidence certainly says it is ) then there has to be something else going on that counteracts the weight discrepancy from the drilled holes and results in the 6 face being the heaviest.

Except that if you had actually read the article that this is all based on, you would have seen that it is the rounded edges that actually cause the dice to flip to its non weighted side since the rounded edge doesn't provide enough stopping power to negate the inertia of the weighted side, resulting in the ones being more prevalent. It is specifically addressed in the article as they hypothesized the same outcome that you did and were surprised to find that the results were contrary to their suppositions.

Have you rolled each die hundreds (if not thousands) of times and kept a record of the results to see if there is an even distribution of results?

 Ghaz wrote:
Have you rolled each die hundreds (if not thousands) of times and kept a record of the results to see if there is an even distribution of results?

What dice are you speaking of? Did you read the source article?

 Dramagod2 wrote:

Except that if you had actually read the article that this is all based on, you would have seen that it is the rounded edges that actually cause the dice to flip to its non weighted side since the rounded edge doesn't provide enough stopping power to negate the inertia of the weighted side, resulting in the ones being more prevalent. It is specifically addressed in the article as they hypothesized the same outcome that you did and were surprised to find that the results were contrary to their suppositions.

I've read the article. You seem to have drawn different conclusions from it than I did.

He says that the rounded corners allow it to roll. He doesn't actually say that this is the reason that they come up 1 more often... just that it happens. The takeout from that article is that he has no idea why they come up 1 more often, just that they do.

My guess would be that it's something to do with the initial casting process, and the plastic on the '6' side winds up slightly denser.