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I know this has probably been hashed out a thousand times before, but I've brought up this suggestion in regards to making Terminators more playable in the current meta.

Give them a re-rollable armor save. (Just armor, not the invuln save)
Allow their squads two heavy weapons per 5 guys.
Reduce the cost of their heavy weapons choices by say 5 points each.
They still keep all their other rules and stats.

This gives them their resilience back more in line with the fluff and doesn't go overboard in making them an OP unit. Thoughts?

put them on jet bikes and give them scat lasers. That is how you make anything worth playing.

More mobility. Some kind of personal teleporters would be OK.

Filch, if I could give them all assault cannons I would!

 bomtek80 wrote:
Filch, if I could give them all assault cannons I would!

Even if the assault cannon was included in the price tag already they'd be worse than scatterbikers by a long margin.

Rerollable armor saves would be broken as all gak. 2+ rerollable saves are crazy strong despite the fact that AP2 bypasses it completely. Orks can make 1 Warboss have 2+ rerollable and that is one of the best things in the entire codex.

Give Terminators 5+ FNP and see how that plays out. Would help against both plasma and non AP2 weapons but not help vs the big guns that instant kill them.

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 bomtek80 wrote:
Filch, if I could give them all assault cannons I would!

Even if the assault cannon was included in the price tag already they'd be worse than scatterbikers by a long margin.

I've brought this up before, but was kinda shouted down.

At this point Terminators are not salvageable without major changes to the core game. As long as rules are released to push model sales we're gonna see more and more grav-esque weapons.

The roots of termies being unplayable are:
- They are too expencive
- They are not survivable or shooty enough for their cost
- While they hit like a truck in melee, they have no grenades, cannot sweep, and more importantly their delivery system is either extremely unreliable (deep strike) or extremely expensive (Land Raider).

Giving them extra survivbility against non-AP2 is not a solution, since every army now runs tons of plasma or grav weapons to deal with things like Riptides or Wraithknights, not to mention lascannons an equivalends.

Making them cheaper, adding more dakka (turning Stormbolter into a two bolters with 4 shots at 12", adding extra heavy weapon slots), and more reliability (deep strike mishap protection or making teleport homers / homing beacons available to more units) on the other hand would help. 7E codices dropping prices by 5 points helped, but not enough.

Termies die to lasguns when their armor is made for PLASMA REACTORS. The issue is large volume of fire or attacks will kill them a re-rollable save prevents that.

Frankly grav is broken and here to stay, there is no solution to it that doesn't screw over the other AP2 or AP1 options against Termies.

IMO having the rerollerable on the 2+ is the best idea i've heard. Immunity to mass small arms fire, but easy pickings for heavy weapons.

The whole game is screwed atm, so agreements in metas are the easiest fix by a long shot. Not even worth comparing broken stuff to terminators, the gap is too far.

Add a second wound for free. Problem solved.

I've been playing GK quite a bit with termies as troop choice. While any time I had to face off against grav or ap2 pie plates of death I would just groan and bear it. I had more problems with dealing with masses of non ap2 weapons like Tau missile-sides squads, IG lasgun blobs, and Tyranid dakkafexes.

Yeah I got armor saves but when I have to roll 30 armor saves with my Termie squad it makes them useless as a T4 1 wound model.

It might help to add the extra wound but then you run into the usual pains of keeping track of wounded multi-wound models.

FNP might be an option as well but I think for the points you pay for them it should be 4+ and not 5+

Plus 1 toughness and strength, minus 1 initiative. allow them to take grenade launchers and personal teleporters or ignore all S3-4 attacks

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Add a second wound for free. Problem solved.

New problem added: keeping track of those wounds. Every Ork and Nid player would say you how much it slows down the game.

Tactical_Spam wrote:personal teleporters

OneEyedALice wrote:personal teleporters.

There in no personal teleporters in the IoM, save for those used by GKs (and those are basically magitek, that only works in conjunction with GK psychic powers). The teleporters they use to deep strike terminators are hugeass machines, that require so much power that only battlecruisers or higher class ships can power them without rediecting pretty much all of the ship's reactor output to the teleporter.

 Mezmerro wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
Add a second wound for free. Problem solved.

New problem added: keeping track of those wounds. Every Ork and Nid player would say you how much it slows down the game.

Tactical_Spam wrote:personal teleporters

OneEyedALice wrote:personal teleporters.

There in no personal teleporters in the IoM, save for those used by GKs (and those are basically magitek, that only works in conjunction with GK psychic powers). The teleporters they use to deep strike terminators are hugeass machines, that require so much power that only battlecruisers or higher class ships can power them without rediecting pretty much all of the ship's reactor output to the teleporter.

ignore terrain then, Terminators are so garage at whatever they do

 Mezmerro wrote:

There in no personal teleporters in the IoM, save for those used by GKs (and those are basically magitek, that only works in conjunction with GK psychic powers). The teleporters they use to deep strike terminators are hugeass machines, that require so much power that only battlecruisers or higher class ships can power them without rediecting pretty much all of the ship's reactor output to the teleporter.

Centurions suddenly were added to the game. Necrons suddenly changed in 5E.
Why the Terminators can not get teleporters?

I say bring back the old 3+ Armor Save on a 2d6.

3+ on 2d6 is a equal to 2+ with re-rolls.

Maybe assault the turn they deepstrike, and reroll scatter on deepstrike (or no scatter).

Whenever I read a story about them in the lore they instantly appear and start fighting (no standing around for a turn)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think ignores unwieldy would be appropriate - they should be able to swing a power fist with their terminator armor faster than an imperial guard sergeant with one.

+1 Ws, +1 toughness and option for FnP would go a long way towards making Terminators good. Paying 17 pts more than your marine to get a power weapon and a +1 armor is not enough and you don't see people playing plain marines either. A 5 str/5 toughness, 2+ armor, 5++ with possible pauy-pts-for-fnp would be a different story though. Suddenly you don't get to save 10 wounds from lasguns so that you lose your guys in vain, because they need 6's to wound you. Same goes for all small arms fire. And where 2 attacks with Ws 4 were nothing to write home about, having Ws 5 changes the dynamics a LOT.

Then of course Nurgle terminators would have Toughness 6 which would maybe be problematic, or have them akin to the wraithblades for slightly more points.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
+1 Ws, +1 toughness and option for FnP would go a long way towards making Terminators good. Paying 17 pts more than your marine to get a power weapon and a +1 armor is not enough and you don't see people playing plain marines either. A 5 str/5 toughness, 2+ armor, 5++ with possible pauy-pts-for-fnp would be a different story though. Suddenly you don't get to save 10 wounds from lasguns so that you lose your guys in vain, because they need 6's to wound you. Same goes for all small arms fire. And where 2 attacks with Ws 4 were nothing to write home about, having Ws 5 changes the dynamics a LOT.

Then of course Nurgle terminators would have Toughness 6 which would maybe be problematic, or have them akin to the wraithblades for slightly more points.

toughness 5 is a must. If SM shrug off small arms with power armour, then Terminators must be god-like durable

I agree that them getting a 2+ rerollable save would help them out a fair bit

Part of this is to make it as simple as possible to change across the board, since updating the 6 Codexes with Terminator Armour in takes ages!

I'd say the best way to making Tactical Terminators more powerful is a broad change to Stormbolters in the rulebook. Something like Salvo 3/ 4 or Salvo 4/ 5 Pinning. Terminators are always relentless so they'd just get tons of shots. Doesn't require changing all the codexes either. Also has other advantages, like making Stormbolters worth taking generally, and giving a slight boost to Rhinos.

If we're going to go for changes to the actual Terminator Armour rules, ignoring Unwieldy would be a simple buff. Anything to do with increasing their regular save becomes silly - they're already at 2+.

This is a problem.
Give 'em T5 W2 and a Terminator Command Squad? A terminator apothecary giving FNP to his unit and the Termie Captain (When they get a re-release) would make them be used alot more.

 ArbitorIan wrote:
I'd say the best way to making Tactical Terminators more powerful is a broad change to Stormbolters in the rulebook. Something like Salvo 3/ 4 or Salvo 4/ 5 Pinning. Terminators are always relentless so they'd just get tons of shots. Doesn't require changing all the codexes either. Also has other advantages, like making Stormbolters worth taking generally.

this was being covered a whole other thread

+1 wound and FNP would help a lot, imo.

Just listing a few ways to make them more playable.

They need a points drop, hands down

They should force every enemy unit within 12" to be blind for the next game turn due to the way they teleport in (also a nod to the film) when they deepstrike.

They should ignore their first (and only first) failed 2+ save, and their first invulnerable save should be 3+, at which point it should revert back to 5+.

The whole point of them is they should be able to wreck havoc (which they will) if left ignored, but they should also be able to absorb a lot of punishment, which these rules would. It would force your enemy to throw a ridiculous amount of firepower at them for potentially 2 game turns along with also handicapping the enemy for a turn without needing to have their offensive output boosted.

This way they could wreck face in the enemy back field, literally plug a hole as a counter unit in your line, and also turn the tide of the battle at a crucial moment.

Just to note Grey Knights Termies would NOT get these rules additions for balance reasons, just a points drop.

I think it might be good to just give them a 2++ with 2 wounds. That way they keep the T4 for ID purposes. The have the added survivability of the two wounds while they get to keep their great save in almost any circumstances. The main thing that sucks about them now is the massive amount of AP2 that makes their save not very great. Plus theyare still vulnerable to grav, which they should be, since its specificaly meant to counter high armour infantry and MCs

2++ is a little OTT for Terminators. A 4+ invuln save, +1W and FNP will be plenty to make them more survivable.