Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2015/10/12 17:20:09
Subject: Are there other wargames with the breadth of background of Warhammer?
Grot 6 wrote: and maybe Malfaux, if they were not such .... not nice peoples.
What's wrong with Wyrd?
Wyrd are pretty well known for maintaining positive relationships with the community, and the only Wyrd employee I've personally met (Justin Gibbs, the lead designer of Malifaux) was extremely friendly and gracious with his time and thoughts on the game.
Maybe Grot 6 means that his problem with Malifaux is that each faction is just bad guys? That's true of a lot of games, but I think it's a pretty reasonable thing to prefer settings with a more defined good v. evil component.
2015/10/12 17:40:37
Subject: Are there other wargames with the breadth of background of Warhammer?
NorseSig wrote: I actually think Battletech has more story and history than Warhammer (Fantasy or 40k) has ever had. Yes, Battletech was inspired by Macross (to the point they ripped off some of the robots); but overall, they created their own unique history for the factions, people, and robots. The only reason Battletech has been less accepted is the poor support for miniatures (poor detailing, non-standard sizing amongst models, ect) and the poor marketing. I really love battletech and it's companion mechwarrior (rules are much simplier but not too simple) but hardly anyone plays it and when asked about it most say Battle what. I think there are dozens of novels now for it, yet hardly anyone knows about it.
FASA didn't 'rip off' the anime artwork. They thought they had legally licensed the artwork, but founf out years later that the company they got the license from (Twentieth Century Imports) may not have been in the legal position to provide those rights (see the article HERE).
Also note that BattleTech is technically a board game. Miniatures are not a necessity to play BattleTech. Thus the miniature line was licensed to MiniFigs and Ral Partha, and since the size of the miniature didn't matter for game play purposes they were sculpted for what looked good for the model in question and not for a consistency of scale.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
2015/10/12 21:38:49
Subject: Re:Are there other wargames with the breadth of background of Warhammer?
NorseSig wrote: I actually think Battletech has more story and history than Warhammer (Fantasy or 40k) has ever had. Yes, Battletech was inspired by Macross (to the point they ripped off some of the robots); but overall, they created their own unique history for the factions, people, and robots. The only reason Battletech has been less accepted is the poor support for miniatures (poor detailing, non-standard sizing amongst models, ect) and the poor marketing. I really love battletech and it's companion mechwarrior (rules are much simplier but not too simple) but hardly anyone plays it and when asked about it most say Battle what. I think there are dozens of novels now for it, yet hardly anyone knows about it.
I have a couple of shelves full of BattleTech stuff, but the miniatures, frankly, suck. I absolutely loved the BattleTech fiction in my youth, and there have been several awesome computer games. As Ghaz mentioned above, though, it's more of a boardgame than a wargame.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/12 21:39:39
2015/10/12 22:53:57
Subject: Are there other wargames with the breadth of background of Warhammer?
jonolikespie wrote: Sadly a lot of the 40k novels don't add much, they are just bolter porn (even the HH series is no bogged down with filler stories that don't advance the overarching plot and the HH is now seen as a setting not a story).
And really how much of the fluff in the rulebooks and codexes over the last 3 editions has been new and how much of it has just been rewriting old stuff?
40k has a TON of material to read, but sadly there is little depth to it outside a couple of their better writers.
And after having been made privy to a conversation between a game dev and a GW executive, it seems they are intent on distancing themselves from Abnett's work as much as possible. An imperium full of civilians is not a good concept,apparently.
That doesn't surprise me actually, Ian Watson was ostracised as well many years ago when his vision began to fall outside of the tightly controlled boundaries. And Abnett has always been the master of making imagination out of what has really become a very stagnant and fully defined setting.
Although I'm sure I read that Abnett was working on a new series as part of the 32nd millennium range?
Talys wrote: I have a couple of shelves full of BattleTech stuff, but the miniatures, frankly, suck. I absolutely loved the BattleTech fiction in my youth, and there have been several awesome computer games. As Ghaz mentioned above, though, it's more of a boardgame than a wargame.
Sadly, the minis do suck. There are some exceptions, but, and I say this as a 20+ year collector of Battletech, the minis are atrocious by contemporary standards and almost require a heavy dollop of nostalgia to find suitable.
However, regarding the board game/miniature game comment, the relatively new Alpha-Strike rule set for Battletech is trying very hard to be a Battletech miniatures game and is worth checking out.
There are even new plastic lance packs of `Mechs (4-mechs to a pack) that cost around US$15.00 after regular online discounting. The plastics aren't GW quality but they aren't horrible either and can be a cheap entry point into Alpha-Strike/Battletech.
2015/10/13 03:22:03
Subject: Are there other wargames with the breadth of background of Warhammer?
Where would be a good entry point for Battletech fluff? I never got into it because I thought the robots (minis) looked silly. Also, where is there a plastic Battletech kit other than the starter? Do you mean the old 'clix?
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Also, where is there a plastic Battletech kit other than the starter? Do you mean the old 'clix?
HERE are the previews of the first two Lance Packs and the schedule for the remaining six that Catalyst released for BattleTech, and no they're not 'clix'.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
2015/10/13 08:25:23
Subject: Are there other wargames with the breadth of background of Warhammer?
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Where would be a good entry point for Battletech fluff? I never got into it because I thought the robots (minis) looked silly. Also, where is there a plastic Battletech kit other than the starter? Do you mean the old 'clix?
Michael A Stackpole's books are pretty good. Not as good as his Star Wars: X-wing series with Aaron Allston (I love those books), and the early ones like the Warrior Trilogy are a bit dated now, but worth a read. I haven't read all of the very many Battletech novels, but as one of the more senior writers in their stable Stackpole's novels seem to be the most important in the overarching story (Ghost War initiated the Dark Age sequence, for instance).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/13 10:22:44
Read the first two novels in the Maelstrom's Edge Universe now:
Mattlov wrote:Conan has more than LotR does. And is better written.
Now I know you're trolling!
Interesting and somewhat disheartening to hear about Dan Abnett. He's one out of about... how many was it... twoBL authors I trust, and I wonder what's to become of his Bequin trilogy.
jonolikespie wrote: Sadly a lot of the 40k novels don't add much, they are just bolter porn (even the HH series is no bogged down with filler stories that don't advance the overarching plot and the HH is now seen as a setting not a story).
And really how much of the fluff in the rulebooks and codexes over the last 3 editions has been new and how much of it has just been rewriting old stuff?
40k has a TON of material to read, but sadly there is little depth to it outside a couple of their better writers.
And after having been made privy to a conversation between a game dev and a GW executive, it seems they are intent on distancing themselves from Abnett's work as much as possible. An imperium full of civilians is not a good concept,apparently.
Wait WHAT?
Do you have a link?
A quote?
A brief paraphrasing of what you heard?
His Inquisition work was what added depth to and fleshed out the setting for me. I don't find it hard to believe they don't want to write about civies since they don't make models for them but it's still a dumb choice that sounds like it will reduce the fluff into a caricature of itself.
I agree with all you've said. I love his books and he spoiled W40K fiction for me. After reading the Tanith books, I just couldn't bear the stuff the others were putting out. You got a sense of the vastness, greatness of the galaxy, and dynamic changes in the universe as the story progressed. My friend works on Eternal Crusade, so he has regular meetings with GW, and when they get over to this side of the pond, they dine out. He was politely giving them gak over this decision. As for the internal politics of that decision, he couldn't tell me more because he was told to drop it.
GamesWorkshop wrote: And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!
2015/10/13 14:24:03
Subject: Are there other wargames with the breadth of background of Warhammer?
Battletech might not have movies, but it can top that just with material from 1985-1990. Let alone the next 25 years.
And if you want a fantasy genre, Conan has more than LotR does. And is better written. And 62.374 times more entertaining.
99.99% of people have never heard of "battle tech".
99.99% of people have never heard of Warhammer40k, or if they have its "that thing my brother did when he was 12". If you actually meant "99.99% of gamers have never heard of Battletech, then you're just plain wrong altogether. There some guys down the club I go to play it regular, and not old fellas either
This is a ridiculous thread anyway, since there is barely a hint of originality in background of 40k in the first place. Just ram Dune, Foundation and Starship troopers together, sprinkle with some fantasy races and half-bake for 20 odd years, job done.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: As I keep telling my wife, ever since the Illiad and the Odyssey, everything feels pretty derivative.
Scratch marks on a cave wall were good enough for my ancestors and theyre good enough for me. Everything is just a blatant copy of Hero Ug and the Mighty Sky-fire in any case.
When I were a lad, we were lucky, lucky, mind you, if our father didn't cut off our hands, and the only time we saw a hand was once a year, on our birthday, when he'd let us look at them.
Pictures...
Of hands...
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
If you keep hammering on LOTR maybe should check the source material that Tolkien stole oops i mean was influenced by, the Nibelungen, Celtic, Norse, Greek, Roman, Egypt, Sumerian mythology.
When I were a lad, we were lucky, lucky, mind you, if our father didn't cut off our hands, and the only time we saw a hand was once a year, on our birthday, when he'd let us look at them.
Pictures...
Of hands...
Look at a hand?! What I would 'ave given to LOOK at a hand. We had to get up at 3am, have our entire arms chopped off, then stand with our backs turned while father described hands to us using a series of colourful euphemisms. Looking at hands, thats rare posh that.
Mattlov wrote:Conan has more than LotR does. And is better written.
Now I know you're trolling!
Interesting and somewhat disheartening to hear about Dan Abnett. He's one out of about... how many was it... twoBL authors I trust, and I wonder what's to become of his Bequin trilogy.
Actually, you'd be surprised how much quality Conan stories are out there. Robert E Howard was an awesome writer and the closest thing to a friend H.P. Lovecraft had. Seriously check it out.
Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions.
2015/10/14 13:51:25
Subject: Are there other wargames with the breadth of background of Warhammer?
Battletech might not have movies, but it can top that just with material from 1985-1990. Let alone the next 25 years.
And if you want a fantasy genre, Conan has more than LotR does. And is better written. And 62.374 times more entertaining.
99.99% of people have never heard of "battle tech".
99.99% of people have never heard of Warhammer40k, or if they have its "that thing my brother did when he was 12". If you actually meant "99.99% of gamers have never heard of Battletech, then you're just plain wrong altogether. There some guys down the club I go to play it regular, and not old fellas either
This is a ridiculous thread anyway, since there is barely a hint of originality in background of 40k in the first place. Just ram Dune, Foundation and Starship troopers together, sprinkle with some fantasy races and half-bake for 20 odd years, job done.
You forgot Judge Dredd. (Though that was more noticeable in the Rogue Trader and in the Necromunda days.)
*EDIT* And the Arbites, of course.
Though it would not surprise me if there had been a time when more people had heard of Battletech through the MechWarrior computer games than had heard of the miniatures game.
The Auld Grump
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/14 13:52:52
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
2015/10/14 14:04:59
Subject: Are there other wargames with the breadth of background of Warhammer?
Perhaps 40K background doesn't have depth, but what it had for a long time was a sandbox feel to it. I felt like I could make up my own stuff, insert it into existing over-arching story lines and it wouldn't step on anyone's toes. Heck, I could even make up whole new games and they could still fit into the 40K universe because it is so vast and sandbox-y.
With a game like Battletech, this gets a bit more difficult because it is so fleshed out. The main outlet is in Mercenary companies.
In Warmachine (and other Boutique named character driven games) it is almost impossible due to its Caster focus.
However, as was mentioned before, it is all a matter of preference in what you want out of the game. Each universe/background/fluff was made for different reasons.
Edit: I am not an expert on any of these games, so these perceptions maybe incorrect. I'm sure everyone will be glad to jump on me and correct me.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/10/14 14:06:26
Support Blood and Spectacles Publishing:
https://www.patreon.com/Bloodandspectaclespublishing
2015/10/14 19:18:00
Subject: Are there other wargames with the breadth of background of Warhammer?
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Where would be a good entry point for Battletech fluff? I never got into it because I thought the robots (minis) looked silly. Also, where is there a plastic Battletech kit other than the starter? Do you mean the old 'clix?
Michael A Stackpole's books are pretty good. Not as good as his Star Wars: X-wing series with Aaron Allston (I love those books), and the early ones like the Warrior Trilogy are a bit dated now, but worth a read. I haven't read all of the very many Battletech novels, but as one of the more senior writers in their stable Stackpole's novels seem to be the most important in the overarching story (Ghost War initiated the Dark Age sequence, for instance).
To follow up on darrkespur's post Stackpole is a great suggestion. He has two main trilogies that set up two important timelines in Battletech's fictional universe, and choosing which one to read depends on which aspect of the game appeals to you.
The Warrior Trilogy is set in Battletech's 4th succession war (1980's era of the game) and deals with the 5 Successor Houses of the old Star League battling it out for control of the Inner Sphere. This is the gritty "Mad Max" era of Battletech where `Mechs are nearly priceless and new parts are hard to come by. This is my favorite era to play in, and is my suggestion for beginners because there are fewer weapons to learn and the combat is close and personal. Combats usually devolve into slugging matches as `Mechs punch and kick each other into scrap. The focus during this era was on single pilots or small companies of Mechwarriors who fought for honor and gold. Very much a King Arthur's Knights in spaaaaaace! situation.
The Kerensky Trilogy is set right before the Clan invasion of the Inner Sphere (early 1990's in terms of publishing) and introduces high technology human invaders who shake up the political framework of the Inner Sphere. These books set up the Clans both as playable factions and as antagonists for the Inner Sphere factions. This era of game play is faster, there are more brutal weapons that do more damage at longer ranges, arguably making the game more tactical. However, I find this era to be lacking in the "charm" of the Succession wars period because the Inner Sphere finally gets its manufacturing issues in order and `Mechs begin to be produced in larger numbers. The focus changes from individual warriors or small units of warriors to larger regiments of `Mechs and full-scale planetary invasions. This era has a more modern feel to it.
So how do you like your giant, killy robots? If you like them rusting and patched together with duct tape spit and a prayer try the Warrior Trilogy and if you like sleek warmachines blasting each other at range give the Kerensky trilogy a try.
2015/10/14 20:53:15
Subject: Are there other wargames with the breadth of background of Warhammer?
Easy E wrote: In Warmachine (and other Boutique named character driven games) it is almost impossible due to its Caster focus.
Aye, but the setting itself is AMAZING for roleplaying games.
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
2015/10/14 21:00:21
Subject: Are there other wargames with the breadth of background of Warhammer?
Did Rifts or Shaowrun ever have proper wargames, or were they always just RPGs with the odd smattering of minis? I seem to recall both games having fairly fleshed out settings.
Easy E wrote: In Warmachine (and other Boutique named character driven games) it is almost impossible due to its Caster focus.
Aye, but the setting itself is AMAZING for roleplaying games.
I really like the Malifaux universe, but I agree that it's going to turn off some people who like that sandbox approach to world building. I think Infinity strikes a good balance of having a well constructed world that isn't just bat-crap insane and is still open enough for the people who want that out of their settings. I don't have time for RPGs these days, but I imagine the setting will be perfect for the RPG they just kickstarted.
2015/10/14 23:26:57
Subject: Are there other wargames with the breadth of background of Warhammer?
Barzam wrote: Did Rifts or Shaowrun ever have proper wargames, or were they always just RPGs with the odd smattering of minis? I seem to recall both games having fairly fleshed out settings.
Never played Rifts, but Shadowrun had a skirmish game called DMZ (Downtown Militarized Zone) that could be a starting place for a war game. DMZ used map-sheets with dots for movement and positioning, so it wasn't a true war game.
2015/10/15 07:42:07
Subject: Are there other wargames with the breadth of background of Warhammer?
Well, I'd say Shadowrun counts then. I think once your IP becomes a multi-media franchise, then you fall into the same category as Warhammer in terms of breadth of background.
So, Shadowrun has had:
-an RPG -multiple video games
-novels
-a miniature range
All it's really missing is either a cartoon or a movie.
Warzone/Mutant Chronicles definitely falls into this category as well. It had:
-an RPG -a video game
-a crappy movie
-board games
-a CCG -a miniature wargame
-a comic book
