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 master of ordinance wrote:
"Overpriced Devilfish".....
Son, have you ever heard of the Chimera? Because that thing is by far the most overpriced dedicated transport in the game and yet it is still used because IG players HAVE too. The Devilfish is a decent vehicle and with these Breachers in it will bring the hurt just about anywhere on the board.
Think of them as a specops team and the Devilfish as their gunship transport.

Is this where the IG guys enter and complain about how bad the IG have it and the Tau shouldn't complain while at the same time demonising the players who use Marines as a comparison in the IG thread?

 master of ordinance wrote:
"Overpriced Devilfish".....
Son, have you ever heard of the Chimera? Because that thing is by far the most overpriced dedicated transport in the game and yet it is still used because IG players HAVE too.

"My army has something that's overpriced so yours should too.", is not an argument, and never has been.

Besides, I was under the impression that Chimeras weren't that bad, maybe a previous edition? I'm going to have to check the rules.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
"Overpriced Devilfish".....
Son, have you ever heard of the Chimera? Because that thing is by far the most overpriced dedicated transport in the game and yet it is still used because IG players HAVE too. The Devilfish is a decent vehicle and with these Breachers in it will bring the hurt just about anywhere on the board.
Think of them as a specops team and the Devilfish as their gunship transport.

Is this where the IG guys enter and complain about how bad the IG have it and the Tau shouldn't complain while at the same time demonising the players who use Marines as a comparison in the IG thread?

Given that the Space Marines have a far easier time of things and have done for a while which, incidentally, the Tau players have too there may just be some slight reason behind the bitterness. BTW I was merely pointing out to him that the Devilfish is, if used correctly, an amazing transport.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Well I was only making a suggestion. As a fast moving objective grabbing team that can be dropped in, clear the objective and then bring down a missile turret to secure it they are quite versatile.

But I established FW's do that better. This issue has never been the validity of mechanized assault and capture tactics. It can do the assault... theoretically. Except we've got better anti-tank units that are more efficient in points cost. So that leaves me to ask one last question. if we have better anti-tank can it do capture and hold well? And as I debated hotly over the previous pages. No. it can't. The FW's are the better unit for that.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
"Overpriced Devilfish".....
Son, have you ever heard of the Chimera? Because that thing is by far the most overpriced dedicated transport in the game and yet it is still used because IG players HAVE too.

"My army has something that's overpriced so yours should too.", is not an argument, and never has been.

Besides, I was under the impression that Chimeras weren't that bad, maybe a previous edition? I'm going to have to check the rules.

Guard Chimeras are about 10-15 points over priced and can be destroyed by basic infantry shooting their flank armour.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gamgee wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Well I was only making a suggestion. As a fast moving objective grabbing team that can be dropped in, clear the objective and then bring down a missile turret to secure it they are quite versatile.

But I established FW's do that better.

Maybe.
I was just trying to contribute as to how these can be used.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
"Overpriced Devilfish".....
Son, have you ever heard of the Chimera? Because that thing is by far the most overpriced dedicated transport in the game and yet it is still used because IG players HAVE too.

"My army has something that's overpriced so yours should too.", is not an argument, and never has been.

Besides, I was under the impression that Chimeras weren't that bad, maybe a previous edition? I'm going to have to check the rules.

Guard Chimeras are about 10-15 points over priced and can be destroyed by basic infantry shooting their flank armour.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gamgee wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Well I was only making a suggestion. As a fast moving objective grabbing team that can be dropped in, clear the objective and then bring down a missile turret to secure it they are quite versatile.

But I established FW's do that better.

Maybe.
I was just trying to contribute as to how these can be used.

I appreciate your contribution, but so far no one has given me a good solid suggestion for their use. Why they're a good choice of anti-tank or a good capping squad. I mean hypothetically Vespids have a use. In theory. In practice and reality it's often another thing.

Eh, I have no idea tough to tell you the truth I do love the image of a Devilfish swooping in and these guys jumping out of the back hatch, blasting the foe off the objective and then securing it before calling down a turret emplacement and then holding the objective until the Firewarriors arrive, then mounting back up once again to repeat the process.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Eh, I have no idea tough to tell you the truth I do love the image of a Devilfish swooping in and these guys jumping out of the back hatch, blasting the foe off the objective and then securing it before calling down a turret emplacement and then holding the objective until the Firewarriors arrive, then mounting back up once again to repeat the process.

It's never the coolness that's been at question. It's definitely cool and I wish their rules were not so atrociously designed as I would like to use them. Same reason I was mad at how bad the limpsurge was when I seen it. I want a reason to take and use such cool things, not look at them and go. Oh neat. In an ideal world everything in our codex would be super good and a bad build impossible. Whole still remaining balanced against others. I wish we lived in that world.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Are you all going to just ignore the fact that in the unit picture there is a pulse accelerator drone?

It's not the PAD.

It's the new "Guardian Drone" that grants a 5+ invulnerable save to a unit with a Field Amplifier Relay.

Tau are great in 40k and have just got better sorry but I have no idea why any one is moaning about tau. With tau you just ignore the rules of the game between marker lights, jump pack moves, base troop having a fantastic gun and decent armour, every one can help out a team in overwatch, marker lights make your over watch better and ignore cover or make you hit better, emp grenades by the truck load, missiles that ignore cover and don't need to see to fire.

Now you will have base troops with emp grenades, 4+ save 5+ invun, 30" gun str5 or choice of assault weapon closer you get is space marine or monster killer. That's just the base unit so give us all a break tau are over powered they are up there with necrons and the like.

The new models look good and have great stats,weapons or abilities the dex is going to be a monster top tier all the way maybe even number 1

10penceman wrote:
Tau are great in 40k and have just got better sorry but I have no idea why any one is moaning about tau. With tau you just ignore the rules of the game between marker lights, jump pack moves, base troop having a fantastic gun and decent armour, every one can help out a team in overwatch, marker lights make your over watch better and ignore cover or make you hit better, emp grenades by the truck load, missiles that ignore cover and don't need to see to fire.

Now you will have base troops with emp grenades, 4+ save 5+ invun, 30" gun str5 or choice of assault weapon closer you get is space marine or monster killer. That's just the base unit so give us all a break tau are over powered they are up there with necrons and the like.

The new models look good and have great stats,weapons or abilities the dex is going to be a monster top tier all the way maybe even number 1

Actually, We don't know if the shield projector drone is available to strike teams, and if they don't have the special wargear, they only get a 6++. Plus it's not like the drone is free, you have to first purchase a shas'ui (10 points) and then purchase the drone it'self (probably going to be at least 14 or so points, although it could be less). And, if you have payed any attention to the leaks, you would see that the new tau stuff is firmly middle of the road. Not bad, but not OP. Hopefully, this is signaling a deescalation in all of 40k. I can but hope.

The key factor will be how cheap the devil fish will be either in the codex or in the formations. It's a good transport on it's own, but it's had a reputation as a hindrance due to it's point cost.
Especially since people were allowed multiple CAD. You could either buy a transport or just purchase another unit of firewarriors.

Their range has always made it so they never really had a problem finding targets so it was considered better to just keep them on the ground and shooting.

Again, I think the price of the devilfish will be a huge factor in this.

I run mobile tau (my FWs are all devilfished up, with crabines), and their price is really hard to justify. If I'm every doing anything semi-competative, and tend to drop them, and just footslog the FWs. At nearly 100 points upgraded, they are just not worth it, when I could spend the rest on more upgrades/units. That's nearly 600 points if you want to have a full army of them. They should be decently expensive (more than the rihno or chimerea, but not this expensive). 75-80 points would probably be right in that sweet spot of worth it, but not too cheap. Certainly that would save me 60-90 points or so. That might be a 20th or more of your total points allotment.

JinxDragon wrote:
This hints at some changes that are... interesting... to say the least.
The Tau, a faction that is well known for its long distance capabilities, receiving weapons that are stronger the closer you are to the enemy?

Tau have a weakness to melee. We need to fix that immediately.

It looks like pulse weapons are getting a change to have stats based off distance.

The stormsurge, supremacy, ghostkeel, and breachers all seem to have pulse weapons with these types of rules.

Its GW being more inventive with how OP they want to make something.
They are now trying to remove the Tau's only weakness - melee. I'm sure of it.

Options to fight them will be:

-Stay a long way away, and be shot to death
-Come closer, and be shot more

Based on what we've seen so far, I would say OP is not what the tau are going to turn out to be. They are looking pretty balanced, all things considered.

Eh. One can only hope.

I said this before and I'll say it again: don't make any statements on how overpowered or weak the Tau codex will be until we see the formations. A huge part of the power (or lack of power) in a 7th edition codex is how blatantly overpowered its formations are. For example, would people have such a favorable opinion of C:SM if they didn't have the DLC drop pod formation or the ability to get hundreds of points worth of free transports?

 Selym wrote:
Eh. One can only hope.

Yep.

I really want tau to turn out to be balanced. because that will probably be signal a deescalation in power level, something that is desperately needed. I'd even be OK with tau being under-powered, if everything starts being brought down to that relative level. I payed with their 4th edition codex for years, so I'm actually more used to being slightly under-powered.

I wouldn't count on a deescalation. We thought the same would happen with CSM at the start of 6E. Now we've got IK, WK and all sorts of spammable gak.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

The.. devilfish. You play tau right? You know how overpriced the devilfish is, right? I mean that could change (and I certainly hope it does), but it's been overpriced the last two codexies, I would not be surprised if it remained that way.

Edit: It would be 180 points for a full squad (with no shield/turret) and un-upgraded devilfish.

because a 80 some point skimmer transport that has 12/11/10 that has the option of getting a load of nifty things (Stealth, Move through Cover, Overwatch) is over priced? I sure wish Space Marines had that because by damn, I would gladly take the ability of high mobility and be in your face at the end of turn 2

The main problem I see with the Breachers is that they are still worthless against 2+ save or INV save models. And lets face it, the main hurt in the game tends to come from Star units that usually are sporting one or both. Hell, even Jinking bikes are a problem because even if Markerlights can remove cover you really need to have eyeball measuring to get inside that 5" range. It probably will be more difficult than it seems.

 Jayden63 wrote:
The main problem I see with the Breachers is that they are still worthless against 2+ save or INV save models. And lets face it, the main hurt in the game tends to come from Star units that usually are sporting one or both. Hell, even Jinking bikes are a problem because even if Markerlights can remove cover you really need to have eyeball measuring to get inside that 5" range. It probably will be more difficult than it seems.

I wonder if Marker lights will be extending range in the new dex

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
because a 80 some point skimmer transport that has 12/11/10 that has the option of getting a load of nifty things (Stealth, Move through Cover, Overwatch) is over priced? I sure wish Space Marines had that because by damn, I would gladly take the ability of high mobility and be in your face at the end of turn 2

The problem is that you don't actually get that much extra mobility out of it compared to a 35-point Rhino. It's a skimmer, but it isn't any faster so you're only getting better mobility if you're jumping over impassible terrain or not willing to risk the 1/36 chance of being immobilized by normal terrain. Meanwhile its shooting isn't very impressive so you aren't getting a dual-role transport/gunship like a Wave Serpent or Valkyrie. And that shooting drops to pathetic levels if you move, since whatever idiot wrote the last codex removed vehicle multitrackers. It's just stuck in the awkward middle ground between "cheap box on wheels" and "tank with passengers", so it fills neither role effectively.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

The.. devilfish. You play tau right? You know how overpriced the devilfish is, right? I mean that could change (and I certainly hope it does), but it's been overpriced the last two codexies, I would not be surprised if it remained that way.

Edit: It would be 180 points for a full squad (with no shield/turret) and un-upgraded devilfish.

because a 80 some point skimmer transport that has 12/11/10 that has the option of getting a load of nifty things (Stealth, Move through Cover, Overwatch) is over priced? I sure wish Space Marines had that because by damn, I would gladly take the ability of high mobility and be in your face at the end of turn 2

Space marines can to that with 35 point drop pods or heck even rhinos with dozer blades can do that for 40. The D-fish has always been overcosted except for when the army was first released and Rhinos were 50 points and Chimmera 70.

 Jayden63 wrote:
The main problem I see with the Breachers is that they are still worthless against 2+ save or INV save models.

They aren't worthless at all. They still have volume of fire to kill those tough models by forcing them to roll saves, just like fire warriors. The only difference is they give up range in exchange for a nasty anti-MEQ shot. But you can still use them just as effectively as normal fire warriors at 5-10" and reasonably well at 10-15".

 Peregrine wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
The main problem I see with the Breachers is that they are still worthless against 2+ save or INV save models.

They aren't worthless at all. They still have volume of fire to kill those tough models by forcing them to roll saves, just like fire warriors. The only difference is they give up range in exchange for a nasty anti-MEQ shot. But you can still use them just as effectively as normal fire warriors at 5-10" and reasonably well at 10-15".

Worthless is probably too strong of a word, and the S6 on the gun is nice, I'll give that. Wounding bikes on a 3+ is pretty sweet. But I just don't see a unit of 10 forcing 6 saves being all that much of a volume of fire. Markerlights change this of course, but then again markerlights helping true Tau plasma may be better spent.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

The.. devilfish. You play tau right? You know how overpriced the devilfish is, right? I mean that could change (and I certainly hope it does), but it's been overpriced the last two codexies, I would not be surprised if it remained that way.

Edit: It would be 180 points for a full squad (with no shield/turret) and un-upgraded devilfish.

because a 80 some point skimmer transport that has 12/11/10 that has the option of getting a load of nifty things (Stealth, Move through Cover, Overwatch) is over priced? I sure wish Space Marines had that because by damn, I would gladly take the ability of high mobility and be in your face at the end of turn 2

Yes, it is. Not outrageously, but it is.
And "in your face by turn two"? These are not fast vehicles. Your rhinos move at the same exact speed as them.

 Jayden63 wrote:
But I just don't see a unit of 10 forcing 3 saves being all that much of a volume of fire.

Where are you getting 3 saves from? A squad of 10 without markerlights will get 10 hits, and will wound virtually any non-LoW unit on at least a 4+. So that's a minimum of 5 wounds, up to 8.333 against a TEQ unit.

And, again, it's the same volume of fire as regular fire warriors, assuming you're in range. So if these aren't inflicting enough wounds to be useful then none of your other troops choices are either.