Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

If we factor in special weapons on the grey hunters, the points discrepancy becomes even worse. A fully loaded grey hunter squad with close combat weapons added is as much as 15 scouts, at which point the scouts still come out on top.

@Martel: Death co, fast tanks, Sanguinary Guard, and fragnoughts? Also how many characters and units of thunder wolves do your opponents usually run? I'm having a hard time building a list I'm actually scared of.

 th3maninblak wrote:
If we factor in special weapons on the grey hunters, the points discrepancy becomes even worse. A fully loaded grey hunter squad with close combat weapons added is as much as 15 scouts, at which point the scouts still come out on top.

@Martel: Death co, fast tanks, Sanguinary Guard, and fragnoughts? Also how many characters and units of thunder wolves do your opponents usually run? I'm having a hard time building a list I'm actually scared of.

Maybe you just don't play against the right opponents.

There's usually 1-4 characters and 1-2 units of TWC. Death company have no ranged ability, and a spoiling assault kills them. Our fast tanks have laughable firepower for the reality of 7th ed. Sanguinary guard are still highly, highly situational units that a few plasma shots will cripple. Fragnoughts are not particularly efficient against any SW unit except Long Fangs, who will be wrapped to prevent a drop.

It's much harder to build a BA list that the SW are scared of. Because there's no reason for them to be. A fully loaded grey hunter squad will massacre 15 cc scouts on the table top. The fact that you don't understand makes me really doubt your analysis of the situation.

Long fangs? You cant get rid of 6 meq huddlig in the backfield? What are they bubble wrapped in? SM armys are the worst at bubble wrap because our troops are way too expensive to afford that tactic.

If I told you that the best way to get rid of twc or its supporting units was wrapped dev squads, you'd just say, "Nuh uh, 'cause greyhunters would just drop down & kill them.". Well guess what? We can do the same with sternguard. But better. So lets get past this "longfangs are scary" nonsense.

They're not scary in the scheme of things, but they're better than what we have.

They only have to wrap for the first turn until the fragnoughts are committed. If they even care, even.

Long Fangs are really the least of my worries in the SW, they are just really annoying because they kill Rhinos quickly.

Martel, could you perhaps post a specific SW list (so far as you can remember)?

I know that lists change, but I think it would help people understand your plight better (and help more) if they had something more solid to analyse.

'Few of these, few of those, few of the other etc..' doesn't really lend itself to useful tactical advice.

Seriously though. If you're having problems with Wolf Stars just run Astorath alongside 3x7 death company. If one starts to get shot up, hop over to another one. You may think he's bad, but in reality he has so much game vs TWC, canoptek wraiths, and various wraith constructs from the eldar book that it's actually rediculous.

 vipoid wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Not all BA lists have I5 charges. Especially those build around Flesh Tearer Strike Force. SW will also spoiling assault your best units with TWC . SW Grey Hunters get double special weapons and frequently alpha strike with drop pods. Unlike most drop lists, assaulting them as a retributive strike is not a very effective solution. That and I believe long fangs are more efficient than any BA heavy weapon platform. It's really more of a function of BA shooting being miserable than SW shooting being amazing.

Ah, I see. Thanks for clarifying.

 th3maninblak wrote:
How are you so afraid of TWC?

I don't play BAs, so take this however you want, but I can honestly say that every army I play is afraid of TWC + TWC Lord.
- They're naturally fast (so no avoiding them or slowing them down by destroying their transport).
- At T5 and 2 wounds apiece they're insanely durable for their cost. And, with SSs they avoid 2/3 of hits that might concern them otherwise (e.g. plasmaguns).
- Moreover, with a Wolf Lord leading them and tanking wounds on a 2+ save, they're also incredibly resilient to weight of fire.
- Finally, if the above wasn't bad enough, they also hit like trucks. At base, they have 6 S5 Rending attacks on the charge (5 with a SS). That's insane. It means they can take on just about anything and expect to come off well, as well as letting them chew through virtually any tarpit in the game. And, bear in mind, this is without weapons. When you add in S7 Rending power mauls, S10 power fists, S6 Wolf claws with Rending and Shred etc. they just get even more silly.

Also, as a DE player, it's rather depressing that a single Thunderwolf is just 2/3 of the cost of my cheapest HQ, whilst being faster, vastly more durable and significantly better in combat. You'd think perhaps that the balance would tip back to my HQs once you account for gear...
...nope.

So, really, unless you play Eldar or Wraith-spam Necrons, I think you're well within your rights to be fearful of TWC.

I'm not really bothered by TWC when playing GK. Mobility and quality of shots/cc attacks deals with them quite well.

However BA do really struggle with them. BA shooting is poor, jump < cavalry, BA bonuses are conditional, and BA don't get to do the kind of shenanigans that TWC units can do.
For example a lot of TWC lists don't feature the actual TWC unit now - Iron/Wolf Priests, Battle Leaders etc on Thunderwolves, some Cyberwolf type things and mixed psykers on bikes

 th3maninblak wrote:
Seriously though. If you're having problems with Wolf Stars just run Astorath alongside 3x7 death company. If one starts to get shot up, hop over to another one. You may think he's bad, but in reality he has so much game vs TWC, canoptek wraiths, and various wraith constructs from the eldar book that it's actually rediculous.

Really? Astorath? Okay.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:
Martel, could you perhaps post a specific SW list (so far as you can remember)?

I know that lists change, but I think it would help people understand your plight better (and help more) if they had something more solid to analyse.

'Few of these, few of those, few of the other etc..' doesn't really lend itself to useful tactical advice.

Actually it does, because the list also has to take on Eldar, Necrons, Skyhammer, etc. Tailoring for SW is useless.

Martel732 wrote:

Actually it does, because the list also has to take on Eldar, Necrons, Skyhammer, etc. Tailoring for SW is useless.

I wasn't aware that tactical advice was 'tailoring'.

Although, I'll admit that 7th certainly doesn't lend itself to much in the way of tactics beyond 'bring better stuff''.

With regard to Necrons, Eldar and Skyhammer... have you considered Warmachine?

 vipoid wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Actually it does, because the list also has to take on Eldar, Necrons, Skyhammer, etc. Tailoring for SW is useless.

I wasn't aware that tactical advice was 'tailoring'.

Although, I'll admit that 7th certainly doesn't lend itself to much in the way of tactics beyond 'bring better stuff''.

With regard to Necrons, Eldar and Skyhammer... have you considered Warmachine?

No, because I'm not shelling out money for another model system. If 40K goes AoS, I'm done with model games.

Tactical advice isn't tailoring, but people know what the SW have. They don't need specific lists to plan for the SW, because I don't know what I'm going to see, either.

Bartali wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Not all BA lists have I5 charges. Especially those build around Flesh Tearer Strike Force. SW will also spoiling assault your best units with TWC . SW Grey Hunters get double special weapons and frequently alpha strike with drop pods. Unlike most drop lists, assaulting them as a retributive strike is not a very effective solution. That and I believe long fangs are more efficient than any BA heavy weapon platform. It's really more of a function of BA shooting being miserable than SW shooting being amazing.

Ah, I see. Thanks for clarifying.

 th3maninblak wrote:
How are you so afraid of TWC?

I don't play BAs, so take this however you want, but I can honestly say that every army I play is afraid of TWC + TWC Lord.
- They're naturally fast (so no avoiding them or slowing them down by destroying their transport).
- At T5 and 2 wounds apiece they're insanely durable for their cost. And, with SSs they avoid 2/3 of hits that might concern them otherwise (e.g. plasmaguns).
- Moreover, with a Wolf Lord leading them and tanking wounds on a 2+ save, they're also incredibly resilient to weight of fire.
- Finally, if the above wasn't bad enough, they also hit like trucks. At base, they have 6 S5 Rending attacks on the charge (5 with a SS). That's insane. It means they can take on just about anything and expect to come off well, as well as letting them chew through virtually any tarpit in the game. And, bear in mind, this is without weapons. When you add in S7 Rending power mauls, S10 power fists, S6 Wolf claws with Rending and Shred etc. they just get even more silly.

Also, as a DE player, it's rather depressing that a single Thunderwolf is just 2/3 of the cost of my cheapest HQ, whilst being faster, vastly more durable and significantly better in combat. You'd think perhaps that the balance would tip back to my HQs once you account for gear...
...nope.

So, really, unless you play Eldar or Wraith-spam Necrons, I think you're well within your rights to be fearful of TWC.

I'm not really bothered by TWC when playing GK. Mobility and quality of shots/cc attacks deals with them quite well.

However BA do really struggle with them. BA shooting is poor, jump < cavalry, BA bonuses are conditional, and BA don't get to do the kind of shenanigans that TWC units can do.
For example a lot of TWC lists don't feature the actual TWC unit now - Iron/Wolf Priests, Battle Leaders etc on Thunderwolves, some Cyberwolf type things and mixed psykers on bikes

GK's one of the only armies NOT to be afraid of TWC. Force Weapons and junk, ya know?

If we're talking about legit superfriends wolf star, with multiple Iron Priests, Wolf Guard Battle leaders and a ton of fenrisian/cyber wolves, that's a different story. But if we're just talking about a regular unit of thunderwolves with a couple HQs attached, then those are very beatable. Just torrent them with as much str5 and 6 as you can, regardless of whether it's shooting or close combat. They'll drop soon enough. And it just so happens that we can bring a ton of str5 melee to the table.

Its not always st5 melee.

Does S5/S6 help much when there's a 2+ save character tanking wounds?

I mean, assuming BS4, that's 13.5 S6 shots or 18 S5 shots to inflict a single wound. In combat, with WS4, this becomes 24 S5 attacks per wound inflicted.

Considering that TWC characters are going to have at least 3 wounds, it seems like you need way more shots/attacks than is feasible.

What am I missing?

 vipoid wrote:
Does S5/S6 help much when there's a 2+ save character tanking wounds?

I mean, assuming BS4, that's 13.5 S6 shots or 18 S5 shots to inflict a single wound. In combat, with WS4, this becomes 24 S5 attacks per wound inflicted.

Considering that TWC characters are going to have at least 3 wounds, it seems like you need way more shots/attacks than is feasible.

What am I missing?

An AP2 weapon?

Storm Shields on sacrificial TWC can tank the AP2 stuff.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Storm Shields on sacrificial TWC can tank the AP2 stuff.

It all comes down to costing really... in the 'what if' world of unlimited resources, it's easy to play move, counter-move

Yoyoyo wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Storm Shields on sacrificial TWC can tank the AP2 stuff.

It all comes down to costing really... in the 'what if' world of unlimited resources, it's easy to play move, counter-move

It isn't a what-if scenario. They're GOING to exist in the squad.

Managed to pull out a super close win in a killpoints game today vs nurgle daemons. I was using the MSU list I posted a couple pages back with the 1st company task force, death company and Corbulo. This was the approximate list I faced.

2 Great Unclean Ones, lvl3, various rewards
2 flying nurgle princes, lvl3 with rewards
2x3 nurglings
2x2 beasts of nurgle
6 plague drones

Had this been an objective game or maelstrom, I would have felt really secure in my victory. But killpoints vs this kind of list was pretty horrific, particularly since 3 of his 4 psykers managed to roll iron arm. The 1st company task force and fragnought held him up and wore him down for a few turns before I was able to have the death co move in and finish off a weakened daemon prince and a GUO. By the end of the game he had 1 nurgling, a wounded prince and a GUO left, but I give up so many killpoints in that list that it almost didn't matter.

Still, the list performed admirably even in a bad matchup with a worse mission. I did find myself missing Mephiston in a big way, though. The psychic hood would have been awesome against the life leeches and Enfeebles flying around, and having some dude swinging a str10 force weapon on your side is a pretty huge deal. I'll be working on a different list that includes mephy and another libby later on tomorrow.

Have you written any battle reports?

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Have you written any battle reports?

Not since I played 4th ed chaos, lol.

Been working on a revised MSU list. Couldn't really find a place for Mephiston (for some reason I can't find a list I like him in at 1850) but I managed to fit in a pair of librarians.

1850
Baal Strike Force Detachment

HQ
-Librarian
Ml2
Gallien's Staff
Jump Pack
-Librarian
Ml2
Veritas Vitae
Jump Pack
Force Sword

Elites
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist

Troops
-5x Tactical Marines
Heavy flamer
Sgt with 2 hand flamers
Las/plas razorback
-5x Tactical Marines
Heavy flamer
Sgt with 2 hand flamers
Las/plas razorback

Fast Attack
-5x Bikers
2 grav guns
Combi grav

1st Company Task Force Formation
Imperial Fist Chapter Tactics
-5x Sternguard
3 combi meltas
Drop pod
-5x Sternguard
3 combi meltas
Drop pod
-5x Sternguard
3 combi plasmas
Drop pod

I may be on to something with this style of list. I think it has potential to be truly competitive.

Martel732 wrote:

 th3maninblak wrote:
Seriously though. If you're having problems with Wolf Stars just run Astorath alongside 3x7 death company. If one starts to get shot up, hop over to another one. You may think he's bad, but in reality he has so much game vs TWC, canoptek wraiths, and various wraith constructs from the eldar book that it's actually rediculous.

Really? Astorath? Okay.

The problem with Astorath is that he doesn't solve any of the problems that BA assault units have, just make's them better on they turn they charge (again)

The Space Wolf vs BA matchup really depends on mission. They have a slight edge overall, but we do have more mobility. If they are running TWC i'd say their edge is somewhat less. Iron priests are really and issue as they are really undercosted and can los ap2 to stormshields or cheap ablaitive wounds. But both books are underpowered in general.

MSU should have a decent shot at beating TWC spam, if you play the mission and remember to deny multi assaults. If your doing something tailored that is bad vs other matchups your really not getting anywhere (Astorath).

This is of course just my opinion vs the lists i face. Local metas are usually different, so it's often really hard to really say something is right or wrong.

 th3maninblak wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Have you written any battle reports?

Not since I played 4th ed chaos, lol.

Been working on a revised MSU list. Couldn't really find a place for Mephiston (for some reason I can't find a list I like him in at 1850) but I managed to fit in a pair of librarians.

Spoiler:

1850
Baal Strike Force Detachment

HQ
-Librarian
Ml2
Gallien's Staff
Jump Pack
-Librarian
Ml2
Veritas Vitae
Jump Pack
Force Sword

Elites
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist
-5x Death Company
Jump packs
Power fist

Troops
-5x Tactical Marines
Heavy flamer
Sgt with 2 hand flamers
Las/plas razorback
-5x Tactical Marines
Heavy flamer
Sgt with 2 hand flamers
Las/plas razorback

Fast Attack
-5x Bikers
2 grav guns
Combi grav

1st Company Task Force Formation
Imperial Fist Chapter Tactics
-5x Sternguard
3 combi meltas
Drop pod
-5x Sternguard
3 combi meltas
Drop pod
-5x Sternguard
3 combi plasmas
Drop pod

I may be on to something with this style of list. I think it has potential to be truly competitive

I think you should consider doing a battle report. Take on Space Wolves with Martel's list. See what happens.

From a theme stand point. I don't know about the list. I'm not too crazy about the Imperial Fists, can't stand Dorn. The Death Company are the only thing really uniquely Blood Angel.

Here is a challenge for you. How would you build this list using the SM codex without BAs? White Scar Vanguard Veterans and Imperial Fist Sternguard?

That's the thing, you really can't build this list using JUST the marine book. Nothing in that codex combines speed, close combat power and relative durability quite like Death Company do. Maybe biker command squads, but those are significantly more expensive and less spammable.

I suppose if you really wanted to, you could use Raven Guard chapter tactics with a combination of Vanguard Vets and assault marines, but then it becomes an odd choice. Do you want to be able to use your jump pack in both phases, have shred on your hammer of wrath and cover save bonuses on the first turn? Or do you want furious charge, +1 initiative on he assault, and better close combat units?

And I'll call a couple friends of mine up that play wolves and try to out together a battle report. I will admit that most of my experience lately has been against space marines, eldar, orks, daemons and daemonkin though.

Edit: I love theme in list building as much as the next guy, but I built this list to be as strong as possible. It actually kind of hurts the fluff player in me to look at it. But the death co arent the only thing uniquely BA in the list. The librarians both rolling sanguinary gives us excellent synergy with the task force, and BA libbys are surprisingly fighty. That, and fast razorbacks are awesome.

I faced a Space Wolf player a few days ago in a small tourny. We both used allies, so it's not a perfect example.

3 TWC with SS 2 ironpriest on mounts with hammers and a WGL with fist/shield. 3 cents and tiggy in a pod, the rest of the list was some long fangs, the SW flyer and troop tax. (1650)
I had cents in a bunker and a BA bikestar (540ish points) chappie, priest (fist), captain(fist,lc) + 7 regular bikes + a white scar chapter master. 2 AC LC preds and scouts/3man bike squads as troop tax. Most of the army can move 24" every turn.

While the BA melee star has less punch, it can move 24" each turn and has some decent dakka. 21 point bikes with 3+ or 2+ jink and fnp are great ablaitive wounds.

While bikers are not known for being good in close combat, i have noticed that WS5 BA bikes with furious charge and a chaplain actually do some decent dmg in close combat. So while the Space Wolf player has a stronger close combat deathstar i can decide the pace of the game and force him to eat the charge. DC do more dmg on the charge per point, but they just die so fast.

My list used allies, so it's a bad example if your attempting mono BA, but i don't really think DC are the answer in mono lists if you want anything competitive. Imo you need allies to build an assaulty lists and utilize the unique ability of the priest and furious charge. Without allies i'd say we are better off building an inferior battle-company style list and playing to the mission. It's gonna be uphill regardless either way though.

 th3maninblak wrote:
That's the thing, you really can't build this list using JUST the marine book. Nothing in that codex combines speed, close combat power and relative durability quite like Death Company do. Maybe biker command squads, but those are significantly more expensive and less spammable.

I suppose if you really wanted to, you could use Raven Guard chapter tactics with a combination of Vanguard Vets and assault marines, but then it becomes an odd choice. Do you want to be able to use your jump pack in both phases, have shred on your hammer of wrath and cover save bonuses on the first turn? Or do you want furious charge, +1 initiative on he assault, and better close combat units?

I imagine though that it isn't just about those units - it's also about your options when it comes to supporting them.

Death Co are definitely the answer in mono BA lists. While you can't make a true death star out of them (not durable enough) they one of the most offensively powerful units for their points cost in the game, at least on the charge. That's why they are perfect for an MSU style of play, as small units are still incredibly effective.

Hopefully I'll get to try out this list on Tuesday.

Any thoughts on Biomancy with multiple BA Librarians?

Smite, Life Leech -- more AP2 shooting never hurts, and it can force Jink with pseudo-split fire
Iron Arm -- can strike at S10 AP2 with Mauls and FC. Combos with Fleet, extra Init and Attacks
Enfeeble -- easier to hit ID breakpoints against T4 and T5 models
Endurance -- EW for tanking ICs and better durability for squads who might need it
Warp Speed -- Fleet and help to chew through T5/3++/FNP with ID attacks
Haemorrage -- Situationally useful, or swap and roll elsewhere

Further to that, what about the Command traits? The MTC bubble will prevent losing -2" distance on charges, +1" charge distance helps (a little), and the LD warfare trait / reroll 1's to hit is decent. And they are all Ally friendly, which is cool.

Not sure how it all comes together exactly, but I like the idea of Fleet S10 Terminators one-shotting WKs. So I'm going to keep thinking about it...

Hello all, thanks for the great thread. I have been getting my butt handed to me by Eldar and this has given me some ideas I can at least try out.

Sorry to change the subject, but I do have a question about Sternguard loadouts that I'd love to hear your thoughts on. If I am trying to use Drop Podded Sternguard to kill a Wraithlord, would I ever take Combi-Grav guns or even just straight Gravguns over the basic Hellfire (Poisoned 2+) rounds? Isn't wounding on a 2+ better (and cheaper), or am I missing something about the other benefits of Grav weapons?