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 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Hopefully Crash you atleast understand that to someone that IS a big history buff, this is something important. Well to someone who invested significant time, energy and money into the 'historical accuracy' of 30k where nearly everything is written in stone MUCH better than 40k ever will be, it's no different.

You don't have to share the sentiment, just respect it as different than your own.

Not really any more than someone getting pissy about similar things in 40k, it just seems similar. Perhaps things are more "set in stone" but there are still gaps and stuff, more to the point it's still just a game. I can understand not liking it the best but getting that mad about it seems dippy, to say the least.

Sure, but respect is earned, not given.


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 TheCustomLime wrote:
It's the historical gamer's mindset. People want things to be as they were during that particular time and place.

You know, the only times I've heard historical games get brought up, it's this arbirtrary pissiness, support of getting really picky about painting and giving empty, unelaborated support to not having balancing mechanics (or balance at all).
This is really not giving me the best impression of the historical wargame scene. To be blunt, this makes them sound worse than Dman. I can't imagine they like being shown in that short of light either...
I can understand wanting the period right, at least on the level of an individual campaign but really, you gotta be flexible.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Having proxies isn't a gameplay issue.

Please elaborate.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
To many 30kers, it ruins the immersion of them playing back during the time of the Horus Heresy.

Maybe, but again, it seems petty to go beyond "Eh, I'm not a fan of the idea". Also, kinda hypocritical when a few of these are the same ones that are okay with going up against 40k lists/armies.

Flash do you play 30k ?

If you mean me, nah.
I'm not sure I can handle Forge World prices, not too sold on most of the old Armors, terrified of working with resin and they don't have rules for Heresy-era Dark Angels. Plus I'm still just starting with regular 40k.
Might do sometime in the future though. If I do, I certainly won't have issues with what the OP wants to do!

Haha at the historical gamer comment. 99% of flames of War players don't give a crap on paint scheme as long as they have a fun game....as its a GAME

 CrashGordon94 wrote:

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
Hopefully Crash you atleast understand that to someone that IS a big history buff, this is something important. Well to someone who invested significant time, energy and money into the 'historical accuracy' of 30k where nearly everything is written in stone MUCH better than 40k ever will be, it's no different.

You don't have to share the sentiment, just respect it as different than your own.

Not really any more than someone getting pissy about similar things in 40k, it just seems similar. Perhaps things are more "set in stone" but there are still gaps and stuff, more to the point it's still just a game. I can understand not liking it the best but getting that mad about it seems dippy, to say the least.

Sure, but respect is earned, not given.


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 TheCustomLime wrote:
It's the historical gamer's mindset. People want things to be as they were during that particular time and place.

You know, the only times I've heard historical games get brought up, it's this arbirtrary pissiness, support of getting really picky about painting and giving empty, unelaborated support to not having balancing mechanics (or balance at all).
This is really not giving me the best impression of the historical wargame scene. To be blunt, this makes them sound worse than Dman. I can't imagine they like being shown in that short of light either...
I can understand wanting the period right, at least on the level of an individual campaign but really, you gotta be flexible.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Having proxies isn't a gameplay issue.

Please elaborate.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
To many 30kers, it ruins the immersion of them playing back during the time of the Horus Heresy.

Maybe, but again, it seems petty to go beyond "Eh, I'm not a fan of the idea". Also, kinda hypocritical when a few of these are the same ones that are okay with going up against 40k lists/armies.

1) If that is what you are taking away from this, sure. But my point was that there is an expectation amongst 30kers of some kind of authenticity towards the setting or at least an appreciation of it. Some groups are exclusionary in that regard while others are more open. It seems that there are groups who demand people buy Deimos pattern Rhinos because they want their battlefields to match the pictures FW puts out. Then there are groups who'll let Mk. 7 Aquila into their games because they're just happy to convert people over to 30k. I belong to a group in the latter category and I'm happy for it. I believe people should "try before they buy" so to speak. Same goes with historical groups. Some are very strict on historical accuracy while others are more easy going.

I don't see how it's really different than what you get with 40k groups. They just draw the line in the sand for what is acceptable and what isn't in different areas. Some groups will ban FW for whatever reason while others will let everything fly. Some will tell people playing hard armies to leave for being a TFG while others will embrace the cheese.

2) Having proxies like using a 40k Crimson Fist squad to represent a veteran IF squad doesn't present any gameplay issues. They're power armored boy scouts with bolters and special weapons. But it would ruin the overall "feel of the game" of being set during the Dark Days of the Horus Heresy for some.

3) Well, 30k v 40k battles are more "What ifs" kind of scenarios. What if the Tau came about in M31 and the Legiones Astartes had to do battle with them? 30k v 30k is more a period kind of gameplay.




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Daston wrote:
Haha at the historical gamer comment. 99% of flames of War players don't give a crap on paint scheme as long as they have a fun game....as its a GAME

Sure, but do you think they would appreciate a historically accurate paint scheme more than a pink German tank force?

I have absolutely no idea why anyone would have a problem with this especially if its wysiwyg.

Marines are marines to me.

Daston wrote:
Haha at the historical gamer comment. 99% of flames of War players don't give a crap on paint scheme as long as they have a fun game....as its a GAME

That's very good, I was getting the feeling that it wasn't an accurate image. Kind of a shame their reputation is getting falsely smeared by these sort of things.


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 TheCustomLime wrote:
3) Well, 30k v 40k battles are more "What ifs" kind of scenarios. What if the Tau came about in M31 and the Legiones Astartes had to do battle with them? 30k v 30k is more a period kind of gameplay.

I don't have a lot to say about the rest so I'll just zero in on this because it gets to the heart of the issue.
Can't the 40k proxies like OP suggests be seen as a "what if", too?


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 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
I have absolutely no idea why anyone would have a problem with this especially if its wysiwyg.

Marines are marines to me.

That's where I stand on it, and where at least some others in this thread do.

Same with the other way around, too.

Sure they could. I would have no problem if someone wanted to include CFs in their army. But more stringent groups wouldn't like post-heresy stuff in their games and would exclude people who did that. I don't agree with it because it is snobbery at it's finest and I think anyone should be able to play 30k. It's an awesome and fun ruleset.

I may have worded my comparison poorly. The exclusive 30k groups Dozer Blades and others have mentioned are somewhat analogous to people called in the historical wargaming scene as "Rivet Counters". Really anal folks who demand that every detail be perfect but these types are extreme cases. Even then the comparison isn't perfect as groups made entirely out of rivet counters are rare compared to the majority in the Historical Wargaming scene. Most people don't care how you paint your army as long as you provided a fun game as mentioned in the thread.

My overall point is that every group has their own standard of what is and isn't acceptable for play. FW-only 30k groups are at the elitist end of the spectrum.

It's not snobbery... It's having a minimum standard.

@OP: I play with 4 dudes who play 30k armies. Between all of us , theres not a whole lot of forgeworld models being thrown around, except for one guy who is a prodigious collector. No worries using GW, kit bashing, converting, etc. in my experience. It's a lucky enough thing to find someone who'll play against a 30k army in the first place

 Dozer Blades wrote:
It's not snobbery... It's having a minimum standard.

It is snobbery, though. By having that kind of restriction just to get a game in you're effectively excluding anyone who can't afford an all FW army. Plus, letting people proxy 40k models for their first few 40k games is a great way of recruiting folks. I find that once people find out how much fun 30k is they are more willing to save up to buy the proper resin stuff.

We let people borrow our stuff and use proxies while they are building their own army. If we are doing a campaign though we prefer all Forgeworld. 30k is more about theme and the hobby rather than competitive play for my group. I don't mean to imply that's the way it should be for everyone. I think if you went to a big event and brought an army composed mostly of 40k models you could be in for some disappointment.

I think people need to remember they're playing a game with space monkeys and ray guns.
By all means take pride in your modelling and painting skills, but don't get all rivet counter about it.

I'm tempted to paint a planned HH army as Rainbow Warriors or Valedictors and smirk at the Ultramarines

Bartali wrote:
I think people need to remember they're playing a game with space monkeys and ray guns.
By all means take pride in your modelling and painting skills, but don't get all rivet counter about it.

I'm tempted to paint a planned HH army as Rainbow Warriors or Valedictors and smirk at the Ultramarines

Do the Pretty Marines!!!

 Dozer Blades wrote:
We let people borrow our stuff and use proxies while they are building their own army. If we are doing a campaign though we prefer all Forgeworld. 30k is more about theme and the hobby rather than competitive play for my group. I don't mean to imply that's the way it should be for everyone. I think if you went to a big event and brought an army composed mostly of 40k models you could be in for some disappointment.

Ohh. That is nice of you guys to do. Out of curiousity, are plastic Rhinos okay or does it have to be the Deimos pattern?


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Bartali wrote:
I think people need to remember they're playing a game with space monkeys and ray guns.
By all means take pride in your modelling and painting skills, but don't get all rivet counter about it.

I'm tempted to paint a planned HH army as Rainbow Warriors or Valedictors and smirk at the Ultramarines

If you do, make a blog out of it. It'd be a retro army on multiple levels!

Tbh I haven't seen one rhino yet.

I feel that I should explain that I'm not opposed to eventually buying the 30k models from Forgeworld. As it stands now; however, I do not have the money to buy all that much from Forgeworld (starting college means that I have to be very careful with my hobby budget). That is why I asked if using 40k models would be alright, because I can get 40k marines and vehicles for fairly cheap from my LGS and friends, so there wouldn't be an issue with getting stand-ins. I just don't have the money to buy all that much from Forgeworld. Eventually (if I do decide to go ahead with this idea, I'm on the fence about it) I would start replacing them with the proper 30k models