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Or some sort of annual/bi-annual softback at a reasonable price that updated things.

All I'm going to say is;
You guys do realise that GW don't sell the Chaos Space Marine codex anymore, so the only 'legal' way to play them would be to use the Legiones Astartes list OR use KDK. Not alot of options, eh?

If it has GW on the cover/inside, It's fair game.

Are you sure? It's still for sale on the AUS webstore.

Admittedly it looks like it's order-only now though, instead of instore shelf stock.

Small format is still available. Same with nids. Could mean paperbacks are on way, same as AM.

 JamesY wrote:
Small format is still available. Same with nids. Could mean paperbacks are on way, same as AM.

Can't find it under CSM, link?

rowboatjellyfanxiii wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
Small format is still available. Same with nids. Could mean paperbacks are on way, same as AM.

Can't find it under CSM, link?

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Codex-Chaos-Space-Marines-Small-Format

Aye, but notice it's limited to 2 per order?
So GW are running out of codices? Updated codex with only 1-2 new models on the horizon?

There are ways to get around 'limited to 2' (ie, multiple accounts, which is how people make money off limited edition stuff).

I don't know what is happening to be honest. I thought they were phasing out CSM in favour of 'God' Daemonkin and in the process enrage all the Chaos Undivided players (nothing new there, GW has a habit of this).

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:
I would say that this is the only legitimate complaint with FW stuff - how do you check that the specific version of the rules that the player has is the current and correct one?

The same way you do for codex rules. GW doesn't have a list of what rules are current or any way to verify that a digital codex hasn't been altered. In fact, GW doesn't even say that new codices replace the previous one, it's just an assumption that we have made as players.

But you can go onto GW's website and see what the current codex looks like so you can tell if that's the current marine codex (for example) or a previous version.

With some FW units having multiple versions of their rules in books that are still available to buy it's highly confusing.

You can go and buy a book from FW today and yet some of the rules it contains will have been replaced by versions in subsequent books. They acknowledge this problem because the IA:Apoc books contained an index of every unit (GW and FW) noting which book(s) had the current rules. (we also clearly see that FW, at least, does intend that newer versions of the rules replace older versions) That was great except it was immediately out of date. A living document on their website would be a relatively small investment of effort but would make using FW models much easier.

At the very least FW need to put on each models webpage where the current rules for that model are located. What would be even better is if they allowed you to download the current rules from the models webpage, in the same manner they do for the experimental units.

This is one of the reasons I'd like to do away with Codices and instead include stat cards with the models a la Warmahordes. Would allow updating rules and introducing new units so much more simple. But I guess that way they couldn't hock £30 Codices (or £50 IA books...)

One thing that'll be entertaining is when the Horus Heresy plastic starter is available for general release. The realistion that you will have to buy and use Forgeworld for the games. Lots of it. I can imagine those rabid anti-FW individuals will be a bit conflicted when people start playing 30k a lot more...

nudibranch wrote:
This is one of the reasons I'd like to do away with Codices and instead include stat cards with the models a la Warmahordes. Would allow updating rules and introducing new units so much more simple. But I guess that way they couldn't hock £30 Codices (or £50 IA books...)

But it would fit really well with the idea if Campaign books replacing codices.

nudibranch wrote:
This is one of the reasons I'd like to do away with Codices and instead include stat cards with the models a la Warmahordes. Would allow updating rules and introducing new units so much more simple. But I guess that way they couldn't hock £30 Codices (or £50 IA books...)

That's fine until you need to buy a model you've already got just to get the updated rules for it...

Free, downloadable rules from the parent company's website.

 kronk wrote:
Free, downloadable rules from the parent company's website.

Finally someone with some sense!

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

 kronk wrote:
Free, downloadable rules from the parent company's website.

Finally someone with some sense!

Be careful what you wish for *looks at Fantasy*...

[void post]

Makumba wrote:

If you're saying specific options should be bad, you're completely irrational.

No what I ment was that when they allowed FW, people stoped buying models at the store. In other stores they couldn't use FW. So after the FW "supporting" shop closed, they stoped having a place to play. They also almost killed the community as a whole, because before escalation was baned here, titan eldar list were in top 7 out of 16. They were worse to play against then eldar are right now, as much as it is hard to believe.

NO that is not what you meant. And I quote, "why should Assault be viable in the first place".

Since Land Raiders still suck and Forge World actually offers something that gets the job done, I shouldn't take it because either you're too lazy to learn the rules for less than a minute (it doesn't take that long to read a unit entry) or because something shouldn't be viable in the first place?

 zedmeister wrote:
One thing that'll be entertaining is when the Horus Heresy plastic starter is available for general release. The realistion that you will have to buy and use Forgeworld for the games. Lots of it. I can imagine those rapid anti-FW individuals will be a bit conflicted when people start playing 30k a lot more...

Just announced today! Preorder Nov 7th, release Nov 14th!

I can't wait for more 30k players. Looking forward to it.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I recently played a game with my space marine army accompanied by solomon lok. He was the only forge world unit in my army, i had his stats with me and he doesn't exactly do anything that is out there. one opponent was totally on board and we had a great game.

my second guy of the night started off being a bit weird about it, making comments that forgeworld is outside the game. When i produced the pages that word for word say that most forge world units are meant for standard games he stopped for a while. Latter when he had some bad shooting due to Lok's warlord trait giving my marines fnp while they sat on the deciding objective, he had a mini freakout claiming that Lok's warlord trait is grossly over powered. the game was not fun from there on.

Has anyone else had people react negatively to a forge world unit, even ones that don't seem particularly cheesy (unless someone wants to argue that Lok is OP)

I myself get "Weird" about it. I ban it in my tournaments which solves much of my angst.

It is grossly unfair to ask the already heavily taxed gaming community who want to participate in this game to go out and get all the extra rule books and units it takes to compete and keep up with a guy whose got these units and books.

If you want new players to enter this hobby, the LAST thing you need is to add $1,000 to the cost of even competing. If people like it in casual play, that's a whole other thing. BUT in tournaments, I'm totally unsupportive.

 Jancoran wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I recently played a game with my space marine army accompanied by solomon lok. He was the only forge world unit in my army, i had his stats with me and he doesn't exactly do anything that is out there. one opponent was totally on board and we had a great game.

my second guy of the night started off being a bit weird about it, making comments that forgeworld is outside the game. When i produced the pages that word for word say that most forge world units are meant for standard games he stopped for a while. Latter when he had some bad shooting due to Lok's warlord trait giving my marines fnp while they sat on the deciding objective, he had a mini freakout claiming that Lok's warlord trait is grossly over powered. the game was not fun from there on.

Has anyone else had people react negatively to a forge world unit, even ones that don't seem particularly cheesy (unless someone wants to argue that Lok is OP)

I myself get "Weird" about it. I ban it in my tournaments which solves much of my angst.

It is grossly unfair to ask the already heavily taxed gaming community who want to participate in this game to go out and get all the extra rule books and units it takes to compete and keep up with a guy whose got these units and books.

If you want new players to enter this hobby, the LAST thing you need is to add $1,000 to the cost of even competing. If people like it in casual play, that's a whole other thing. BUT in tournaments, I'm totally unsupportive.

I fail to see how banning Forge World will help with that. People will need to buy a ton of expensive books and models if they want to memorize all current rules and remain competitive regardless of you banning Forge World. Seems like an arbitrary, shallow fix to a massive problem built in to the game by the studio.

 Jancoran wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I recently played a game with my space marine army accompanied by solomon lok. He was the only forge world unit in my army, i had his stats with me and he doesn't exactly do anything that is out there. one opponent was totally on board and we had a great game.

my second guy of the night started off being a bit weird about it, making comments that forgeworld is outside the game. When i produced the pages that word for word say that most forge world units are meant for standard games he stopped for a while. Latter when he had some bad shooting due to Lok's warlord trait giving my marines fnp while they sat on the deciding objective, he had a mini freakout claiming that Lok's warlord trait is grossly over powered. the game was not fun from there on.

Has anyone else had people react negatively to a forge world unit, even ones that don't seem particularly cheesy (unless someone wants to argue that Lok is OP)

I myself get "Weird" about it. I ban it in my tournaments which solves much of my angst.

It is grossly unfair to ask the already heavily taxed gaming community who want to participate in this game to go out and get all the extra rule books and units it takes to compete and keep up with a guy whose got these units and books.

If you want new players to enter this hobby, the LAST thing you need is to add $1,000 to the cost of even competing. If people like it in casual play, that's a whole other thing. BUT in tournaments, I'm totally unsupportive.

The problem with this is that nothing FW puts out afaik can compete with the new Eldar and Crons, put out by GW. If you want new players who want to join the hobby and want to play CSM, why are you limiting their ability to compete by saying, nope, you can't use official rules published by GW in order to make your armies even remotely on par?

You know what I think would be great? If GW stuck to what they want to by only publishing the "good" armies (SM, Eldar, Tau) and left FW to do the "evil" armies entirely. At least there would be some reason to keep the company's banner and website split.

 kronk wrote:
I can't wait for more 30k players. Looking forward to it.

This is one of the main reasons I am excited for it. I desperately need people to play with.

I don't mind at all because I'm just happy to play. But where I came from nobody uses forgeworld because they say its overpowered. I've never even played against it before but that's sad when someone uses the rules as a crutch for why they are failing.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I recently played a game with my space marine army accompanied by solomon lok. He was the only forge world unit in my army, i had his stats with me and he doesn't exactly do anything that is out there. one opponent was totally on board and we had a great game.

my second guy of the night started off being a bit weird about it, making comments that forgeworld is outside the game. When i produced the pages that word for word say that most forge world units are meant for standard games he stopped for a while. Latter when he had some bad shooting due to Lok's warlord trait giving my marines fnp while they sat on the deciding objective, he had a mini freakout claiming that Lok's warlord trait is grossly over powered. the game was not fun from there on.

Has anyone else had people react negatively to a forge world unit, even ones that don't seem particularly cheesy (unless someone wants to argue that Lok is OP)

I myself get "Weird" about it. I ban it in my tournaments which solves much of my angst.

It is grossly unfair to ask the already heavily taxed gaming community who want to participate in this game to go out and get all the extra rule books and units it takes to compete and keep up with a guy whose got these units and books.

If you want new players to enter this hobby, the LAST thing you need is to add $1,000 to the cost of even competing. If people like it in casual play, that's a whole other thing. BUT in tournaments, I'm totally unsupportive.

I fail to see how banning Forge World will help with that. People will need to buy a ton of expensive books and models if they want to memorize all current rules and remain competitive regardless of you banning Forge World. Seems like an arbitrary, shallow fix to a massive problem built in to the game by the studio.

The math is simple. The baseline of knowledge you eventually need is whats in your codex and then whats in theirs. those change so that baseline is always moving. And thats is QUITE enough to keep up on for anyone with a normal life and who doesn't live in mom's basement.

So your fauilure to see how adding an ENTIRE second games worth of material, models and fluff to the equation is fine. But it isnt complicated. If people start showing up with things you dont recognized and have not PLANNED for in your list, its a good bet there will be a problem, RIGHT? Right! And it's really that simple.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

The problem with this is that nothing FW puts out afaik can compete with the new Eldar and Crons, put out by GW. If you want new players who want to join the hobby and want to play CSM, why are you limiting their ability to compete by saying, nope, you can't use official rules published by GW in order to make your armies even remotely on par?

A false premise. You absolutely can compete with the aforementioned. Proof has been amply offered up many times by many generals. WILL you is another story but CAN you? yup. And without Forgeworld even! GASP!

Its absolutely false that you need FORGE WORLD to do this.

Exalbaru wrote:
I don't mind at all because I'm just happy to play. But where I came from nobody uses forgeworld because they say its overpowered. I've never even played against it before but that's sad when someone uses the rules as a crutch for why they are failing.

So, have you or any of them even held an IA book before? This is complete nonsense, how are they using a crutch with official GW rules?
Does anyone even look at the books anymore?
http://i.imgur.com/HAU9ICB.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/67cRj27.jpg?1

@Jancoran:

Yeah, yet more elaborate justification for "I don't like Forge World, so I don't want other people to be able to use it."

It's not wrong, just don't pretend you're doing anyone any favors by banning it. It's fairly obvious you've got a chip on your shoulder about it.

It is a crutch. What happens is, codex's shift around and people don't WANT to change their lists. Or the codex changes and they say to themselves "Well this bad ass FW thing wont be worrying about chamnge any time soon..." and you get it in your head that tactics don't matter.

VERY recent example: I faced a list i was supremely outclassed by. I played smart. I killed, in total, one Tactical marine in Close combat... and none outside of close combat. One model. I tied the game, almost won it. I was a Hull point away from winning, and the worst part was, ALL THREE of my Obliterators fired all five turns! never lost an Obliterator, couldn't kill that last Hull point. What can ya' do?

But the point is, i TIED a game i sghould have won after killing only ONE enemy model.

Tactics matter. The general matters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
@Jancoran:

Yeah, yet more elaborate justification for "I don't like Forge World, so I don't want other people to be able to use it."

It's not wrong, just don't pretend you're doing anyone any favors by banning it. It's fairly obvious you've got a chip on your shoulder about it.

Its fairly obvious you didn't understand a word I said then. And that's okay too. My point stands on its own merits whether you THINK I have a chip on my shoulder OR NOT.

Play it in casual games. Don't bring that stuff to tournaments. That's my take.

I think if your cookie cutter list has problems with one unit. FW may not be the problem.