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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Jancoran wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You also cannot expect some armies to reasonably compete without FW, because they're willing to plug in the holes that GW leaves.

Take the newest CSM codex for example. It sucks. Flat out simple as that. Loyalist versions are better, they lack allies, the internal balance is horrible, etc.
If you actually live in an area where people are good and not CAAC, you cannot bring stuff from the codex and expect to actually have a decent chance of winning.

SO, queue Forge World to bring in an armory for CSM's to actually have reasonable options. When Serpent Spam was big, I actually had a chance because I had Sicarans, and with the Purge FOC, I can better utilize my slots and ally in different things.

So PLEASE explain how you want CSM players to compete. I don't want your people's garbage of "Oh they do fine here". Anecdotal evidence of your LGS means little. Someone proved that earlier when they made mention that a tournament banned FW and only 4 people showed up.

Build me a winning CSM list without FW. You cannot.


I can and have. I just took my Night Lords, as mentioned to an ITC tournament brimming with Forge World. Defeated a Forge World Tyranid list, defeated the Decurion Necrons list and would have defeated the Chaos Daemon list with its flying Sorcerers had I not forgotten to score points on two different occassions ( that loss was on me, not my list. Just boned it).

So I'm really not in agreement at all. In another game most recently they fought the Iron Hands and I tied that game after killing just one Tactical Marine the entire game. My opponent was in the ard boyz finals and has a lot of tourney wins.

So I guess what Im saying is: maybe its not the codex. Maybe its the list or maybe the General. As I proved last Saturday, you can be very competitive with Chaos. I can't sit here and have an entire thread on that so feel free to pm me but I dont share this mentality on Chaos. Ill agree with you this far though: there is no doubt the codex needs an update but I also dont think its so terrible that you need Forge World to make a difference. Well let me rephrase that. I don't.

No, you didn't. If you did and actually got results at those tournaments, people would talk about a topping CSM list. So I'm calling you out on that.

For the record, ITC is house rules.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine






You don't count. Take your artistic ability and ideas elsewhere!

Help me, Rhonda. HA! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




So what about the Vendetta. The only official model for it is a forge world one.
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine






HoundsofDemos wrote:
So what about the Vendetta. The only official model for it is a forge world one.


Buy the Valkarie and use official GW lascannons TM as a kitbash like all good soldiers do.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/28 23:30:18


Help me, Rhonda. HA! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




sure you can kit bash it just like we all do and proxy it. But technically the official model is only available from forge world. Additionally the Galaxy of War book mentions forge world along side other expansions. It seems odd to allow the skyhammer or data slates but not an IA book.
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine






The official model will not be allowed because it is not official.

Help me, Rhonda. HA! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




By that logic there is not legal model for the Vendetta
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
By that logic there is not legal model for the Vendetta
Exactly...

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

 Ashiraya wrote:
No. You repeat that rulebook + codex is 'core' but you have no source. Where did GW say they are? Quote page and paragraph.


Word play now? Sorry man. No idea what youre after. My answer is what it is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Orock wrote:
I hear tell the tau supremacy armor is prrrreeeeettttttyyyy good for its points cost. Hope they dont start swinging back to the old "stat it so it sells" fallback.


Its good.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/29 05:50:45


Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Southern California, USA

 Jancoran wrote:
 Ashiraya wrote:
No. You repeat that rulebook + codex is 'core' but you have no source. Where did GW say they are? Quote page and paragraph.


Word play now? Sorry man. No idea what youre after. My answer is what it is.




Where does it say that BRB+Codex is the "Core Game"? It's a simple question. You seem so adamant about the existence of this "core game" but you seem to avoiding the question of the proof of it's existence.

Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!  
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Jancoran wrote:
Word play now? Sorry man. No idea what youre after. My answer is what it is.


So, your answer is evasion and simply repeating your "core game" myth without ever citing any rules from GW.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

nareik wrote:
I have nothing against Forgeworld at all, some of my best friends use Forgeworld! The rulebook is very 'Citadel minature' orientated though.

"An army is a collection of one or more units of Citadel miniatures"
Are Forgeworld models 'Citadel miniatures'?

It also says "The rules for your Citadel miniatures are found in a wide range of Games Workshop's publications such as codexes, codex supplements and datslates".
It doesn't explicitly mention Forgeworld rules, but they aren't excluded either; are they Games Workshop publications?

Personally I am happy to play anything*, the person I am up against is more important to me than the models we happen to be using.

That said, I don't think anyone is wrong for having their own preferences on how they like to play or creating restrictions for their events.


Spoiler:
*as long as it is form the stock chaos marine codex and nothing else



Isnt that interesting. Citadel you say. Huh. Why that would mean that...

Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Southern California, USA

 Jancoran wrote:
nareik wrote:
I have nothing against Forgeworld at all, some of my best friends use Forgeworld! The rulebook is very 'Citadel minature' orientated though.

"An army is a collection of one or more units of Citadel miniatures"
Are Forgeworld models 'Citadel miniatures'?

It also says "The rules for your Citadel miniatures are found in a wide range of Games Workshop's publications such as codexes, codex supplements and datslates".
It doesn't explicitly mention Forgeworld rules, but they aren't excluded either; are they Games Workshop publications?

Personally I am happy to play anything*, the person I am up against is more important to me than the models we happen to be using.

That said, I don't think anyone is wrong for having their own preferences on how they like to play or creating restrictions for their events.


Spoiler:
*as long as it is form the stock chaos marine codex and nothing else



Isnt that interesting. Citadel you say. Huh. Why that would mean that...


There is no definition of what a Citadel miniature is, Janc. You can't use the strict letter of the BRB to enforce rules it simply doesn't work.

Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!  
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Jancoran wrote:
Isnt that interesting. Citadel you say. Huh. Why that would mean that...


That would mean that FW rules are ok, you just have to use Citadel miniatures to represent them on the tabletop. And of course it would mean that proxies/conversions/etc are banned, and it would be illegal to use a FW marine kit to represent a C:SM tactical squad. But somehow I doubt you're going to enforce that part of the rule.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

 Jancoran wrote:
 Ashiraya wrote:
No. You repeat that rulebook + codex is 'core' but you have no source. Where did GW say they are? Quote page and paragraph.


Word play now? Sorry man. No idea what youre after. My answer is what it is.
No, you were asked for a source as to what constitutes the "core game" that isn't just your say so, that defines it in anywhere int he rules or from any GW source as "codex+rulebook". That's what you were asked, and did not provide a response to other than just re-iterating what your definition was.

Your concept of "core game" is an erroneous one, something of your own creation, the concept of a "core game" is not something that has any basis in the rules of the game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/29 06:04:35


IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

 TheCustomLime wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
nareik wrote:
I have nothing against Forgeworld at all, some of my best friends use Forgeworld! The rulebook is very 'Citadel minature' orientated though.

"An army is a collection of one or more units of Citadel miniatures"
Are Forgeworld models 'Citadel miniatures'?

It also says "The rules for your Citadel miniatures are found in a wide range of Games Workshop's publications such as codexes, codex supplements and datslates".
It doesn't explicitly mention Forgeworld rules, but they aren't excluded either; are they Games Workshop publications?

Personally I am happy to play anything*, the person I am up against is more important to me than the models we happen to be using.

That said, I don't think anyone is wrong for having their own preferences on how they like to play or creating restrictions for their events.


Spoiler:
*as long as it is form the stock chaos marine codex and nothing else



Isnt that interesting. Citadel you say. Huh. Why that would mean that...


There is no definition of what a Citadel miniature is, Janc. You can't use the strict letter of the BRB to enforce rules it simply doesn't work.


Oooooh. Im not allowed, eh? Lol. Not even the main rulebook? Ok.

Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Vaktathi wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
 Ashiraya wrote:
No. You repeat that rulebook + codex is 'core' but you have no source. Where did GW say they are? Quote page and paragraph.


Word play now? Sorry man. No idea what youre after. My answer is what it is.
No, you were asked for a source as to what constitutes the "core game" that isn't just your say so, that defines it in anywhere int he rules or from any GW source as "codex+rulebook". That's what you were asked, and did not provide a response to.

Don't bother at this point. He doesn't provide sources and apparently has a magical Night Lords list that happens to win most of its games against tournament lists which, ya know, hasn't won any tournaments.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





 TheCustomLime wrote:
You can't use the strict letter of the BRB to enforce rules it simply doesn't work.


Visit YMDC some time.

It's called a thick skin. The Jersey born have it innately. 
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

Wait... you think i win no tournaments? Perhaps you need to visit www.warsound.com. perhaps you can get a truer accounting. Since you are so willing to take on that tone.

Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Southern California, USA

 Arkaine wrote:
 TheCustomLime wrote:
You can't use the strict letter of the BRB to enforce rules it simply doesn't work.


Visit YMDC some time.


Yup. RAW 40k is weird, contradictory and downright broken.

Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!  
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





 Jancoran wrote:
Wait... you think i win no tournaments? Perhaps you need to visit www.warsound.com. perhaps you can get a truer accounting. Since you are so willing to take on that tone.

Guessing from your sig that you're Unorthodoxy.

Malifaux, Star Trek, X-wing, even Magic? All dead?? Warhammer is your only active forum.

I can get the others but Magic?? That's like the lifebread of every store.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 TheCustomLime wrote:
 Arkaine wrote:
 TheCustomLime wrote:
You can't use the strict letter of the BRB to enforce rules it simply doesn't work.
Visit YMDC some time.
Yup. RAW 40k is weird, contradictory and downright broken.

Which totally won't stop people attempting to use the strict letter of the BRB to enforce their position. Visit YMDC some time, it's a riot!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/29 06:16:18


It's called a thick skin. The Jersey born have it innately. 
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

 Arkaine wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
Wait... you think i win no tournaments? Perhaps you need to visit www.warsound.com. perhaps you can get a truer accounting. Since you are so willing to take on that tone.

Guessing from your sig that you're Unorthodoxy.

Malifaux, Star Trek, X-wing, even Magic? All dead?? Warhammer is your only active forum.

I can get the others but Magic?? That's like the lifebread of every store.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 TheCustomLime wrote:
 Arkaine wrote:
 TheCustomLime wrote:
You can't use the strict letter of the BRB to enforce rules it simply doesn't work.
Visit YMDC some time.
Yup. RAW 40k is weird, contradictory and downright broken.

Which totally won't stop people attempting to use the strict letter of the BRB to enforce their position. Visit YMDC some time, it's a riot!


Star trek, star wars, 40k, Magic, d&d, warmachine and flames of war are all VERY active here. The forum has a lot of casuals. But they all check in on that and the associated facebook pages


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jancoran wrote:
 Arkaine wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
Wait... you think i win no tournaments? Perhaps you need to visit www.warsound.com. perhaps you can get a truer accounting. Since you are so willing to take on that tone.

Guessing from your sig that you're Unorthodoxy.

Malifaux, Star Trek, X-wing, even Magic? All dead?? Warhammer is your only active forum.

I can get the others but Magic?? That's like the lifebread of every store.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 TheCustomLime wrote:
 Arkaine wrote:
 TheCustomLime wrote:
You can't use the strict letter of the BRB to enforce rules it simply doesn't work.
Visit YMDC some time.
Yup. RAW 40k is weird, contradictory and downright broken.

Which totally won't stop people attempting to use the strict letter of the BRB to enforce their position. Visit YMDC some time, it's a riot!


Star trek, star wars, 40k, Magic, d&d, warmachine and flames of war are all VERY active here. The forum has a lot of casual posters and lurkers. But they all check in on that and the associated facebook pages

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/29 06:25:55


Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Jancoran wrote:
Wait... you think i win no tournaments? Perhaps you need to visit www.warsound.com. perhaps you can get a truer accounting. Since you are so willing to take on that tone.

I'm not going to visit your bloody blog. I will read tournament reports from the sources and the top 16 lists from the same place

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
Wait... you think i win no tournaments? Perhaps you need to visit www.warsound.com. perhaps you can get a truer accounting. Since you are so willing to take on that tone.

I'm not going to visit your bloody blog. I will read tournament reports from the sources and the top 16 lists from the same place

His blog is the website in his signature... he linked you to the tournament report source.

It's called a thick skin. The Jersey born have it innately. 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Southern California, USA

Yup. 1++ FNP (As in, a FNP you can never technically fail) is totally legal under RAW.

Other silliness:

One use only: Rule refers to something called a battle. There is something called a game in 40k but the overall event that concerns the 40k rules isn't called a battle. Therefore, the rule is meaningless.

Preferred enemy: Technically speaking, if a unit that has this rule but doesn't specify a faction then it has to reroll 1s to hit/wound if for whatever reason it commits friendly fire. The rule states that an unspecified preferred enemy applies to everyone. Not just enemy models. This can also be true if the preferred enemy specifies your own faction.

Vehicles can move up and down straight walls as long as they have enough movement to do so. You can move a Taurox up the side of the building like there were suction cups on the treads or something.


Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!  
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
Wait... you think i win no tournaments? Perhaps you need to visit www.warsound.com. perhaps you can get a truer accounting. Since you are so willing to take on that tone.

I'm not going to visit your bloody blog. I will read tournament reports from the sources and the top 16 lists from the same place


Do as you like but do not question my tournament ability again until youve looked deeper. Ive provided you access to do so. Only your own stubborn nature can stop you now.

Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in au
Trustworthy Shas'vre






You do realize that your ability to beat the hardcore tournament lists and ForgeWorld models you've never seen before, with an army that is generally considered bottom of the barrel, is evidence in favour of including Forgeworld, right?
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Moustache-twirling Princeps





Gone-to-ground in the craters of Coventry

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Vehicles can move up and down straight walls as long as they have enough movement to do so. You can move a Taurox up the side of the building like there were suction cups on the treads or something.
In the fluff listed for the Taurox Prime, there are...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/29 08:56:45


6000 pts - Harlies: 1000 pts - 4000 pts - 1000 pts - 1000 pts DS:70+S+G++MB+IPw40k86/f+D++A++/cWD64R+T(T)DM+
IG/AM force nearly-finished pieces: http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/images-38888-41159_Armies%20-%20Imperial%20Guard.html
"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing." - George Bernard Shaw (probably)
Clubs around Coventry, UK https://discord.gg/6Gk7Xyh5Bf 
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

Trasvi wrote:
You do realize that your ability to beat the hardcore tournament lists and ForgeWorld models you've never seen before, with an army that is generally considered bottom of the barrel, is evidence in favour of including Forgeworld, right?


No. I don't see that. What I see is that I had to bring my A game. THAT'S what I found out. Lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Arkaine wrote:

Malifaux, Star Trek, X-wing, even Magic? All dead?? Warhammer is your only active forum.


Oh... it just hit me as i re-read this and another post. Some clarity might help. Warsound.com isnt my forum by the way. it's just the local one that everyone is on here. My blog is completely separate.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/29 10:27:54


Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in au
Trustworthy Shas'vre






 Jancoran wrote:
Trasvi wrote:
You do realize that your ability to beat the hardcore tournament lists and ForgeWorld models you've never seen before, with an army that is generally considered bottom of the barrel, is evidence in favour of including Forgeworld, right?


No. I don't see that. What I see is that I had to bring my A game. THAT'S what I found out. Lol.


So? You had to bring your A-Game. Isn't that what tournaments are about? I'd hope that people in a tournament aren't going thinking they'l cruise to victory.
But bringing your A-game, with a bottom tier army, you managed to defeat some armies consisting of Forgeworld models you'd never played against before.
That invalidates your 'cumulative experience cost' argument. You could defeat those enemies regardless of having no experience against them. There is no 'cost' to learning to play against these armies, because (like pretty much everything else in 40k) once you know the archetypes you can play against anything.
   
 
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