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 Jancoran wrote:
Well it takes all kinds. I think that Generals will be pleased with the Buffmander now as they were before.

Yep, still very useful.

The combined fire rule will be useful in smaller scale - where you have a couple of feeder units alongside the main firing unit.

Example a few FW/Breacher squads (w/ missile drone?) target a unit alongside a RIptide...? Profit.

luke1705 wrote:Yep it definitely works. Would be kind of hilarious to see someone with a million drones do that (maybe have 2 buffmanders to spread the love around). Forget ghostkeels! I have DRONES

Someone please post a video batrep of this at their earliest convenience

Now that you mention it, I'm pretty tempted to... if only missile drones were affected by Drone Controller.

maceria wrote:
The SMS does. All of your shots are TL, half ignore cover. I've never thought sticking your buff'O in to make the other half of your shots TL was particularly useful. ML for ignore cover is.

EDIT: typos.

The SMS is mostly complementary, but I agree with you that Buffmander has better places to be.

 luke1705 wrote:
Yep it definitely works. Would be kind of hilarious to see someone with a million drones do that (maybe have 2 buffmanders to spread the love around). Forget ghostkeels! I have DRONES

Someone please post a video batrep of this at their earliest convenience

My opponents are going to hate you for this. I already run huge Drone squads And the while not much point for Gun drones, the Drones got to BS6 with 3+ units involved. So that makes markerlight drones get a reroll just off BS.

I need more drones....

Oh, hey, you don't even have to waste a Commander for this, just use sniper drones teams. Now you have BS6 gundrones and Sniper Drones

This is true. And people are more likely to include Sniper Drones now days.
Their only real problem is they were outshined by their competition. I fully intend to start fielding sniper drone teams.

I think its also worth discussing tactics where units don't share special rules with combined fire.

For example... having MSU to help trigger multiple instances of the +1BS/Markerligth buff. Or/and cascading MSU markerlight squads (dare I say, BS3 drones?). Definitely makes squad leaders with markerlight and target locks more attractive (again assuming that dynamic of combined fire works with split fire).

The whole 3 squads to get +1BS makes me believe everyone will take minimal units every single time and just bring multiple cores. Since in the default core you can bring 3 individual Crisis Suits and treat them as one unit while they actually arent, so they almost always are BS4 until one dies off and nobody focuses with them.
Which im not really a fan of that thought. It also makes you bring a ton of commanders though, now that i think about it (1 required commander per Core).

And yeah i know bringing 3 individual crisis suits like that would be dumb, but could be easily replaced with ghosts or riptides which would be worth it.

Though admit, that would be hilarious to see someone try that with everything and end up in a Kill Point game lol. Every suit death = 1 VP = auto lose LOL

Well something I just thought of - I believe that target locks contribute to the unit count. I threw a topic up in YMDC to be sure, but if a unit has a model with target lock and his unit attacks one unit, but he and two other units fire on a different unit, wouldn't they get the bonus anyhow?

This would cut down on MSU a ton. You could effectively have three units fire at three different targets and all get +1 BS if you had two target lock models in each unit if I am interpreting it correctly.

 luke1705 wrote:
Well something I just thought of - I believe that target locks contribute to the unit count. I threw a topic up in YMDC to be sure, but if a unit has a model with target lock and his unit attacks one unit, but he and two other units fire on a different unit, wouldn't they get the bonus anyhow?

This would cut down on MSU a ton. You could effectively have three units fire at three different targets and all get +1 BS if you had two target lock models in each unit if I am interpreting it correctly.

So hoping/assuming this is the case.. it then becomes of a question of being able to effectively target things.

I.e. Sure you can split off 100% of your splitfire units to trim down on the need of units to fulfil single/multiple combined fire buffs - but is it worthwhile to do so?

Basically what are good feeder units.

Or

What are good Combined Fire units - in terms of logistics/range/need of +1BS/Markerlights.

Razerous wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
Well something I just thought of - I believe that target locks contribute to the unit count. I threw a topic up in YMDC to be sure, but if a unit has a model with target lock and his unit attacks one unit, but he and two other units fire on a different unit, wouldn't they get the bonus anyhow?

This would cut down on MSU a ton. You could effectively have three units fire at three different targets and all get +1 BS if you had two target lock models in each unit if I am interpreting it correctly.

So hoping/assuming this is the case.. it then becomes of a question of being able to effectively target things.

I.e. Sure you can split off 100% of your splitfire units to trim down on the need of units to fulfil single/multiple combined fire buffs - but is it worthwhile to do so?

Basically what are good feeder units.

Or

What are good Combined Fire units - in terms of logistics/range/need of +1BS/Markerlights.

Combined Fire makes almost everything better. Pathfinders for instance become much better, and can land more markerlight hits and their special weapons become slightly less useless. Of course, their armor still sucks...

Riptides, Stormsurges, and Ghostkeels, pretty much the three biggest hitters in the codex, benefit the most from the +1 BS and additional markerlight abilities (probably just another +1 BS or ignores cover). This is because their blasts would scatter less, and the Ghostkeel needs the additional BS for hitting vehicles in the bum as many times as possible.

Problem with the stormsurge is its pretty much impossible to put in the formation unless youre willing to buy 2 of them. The Core formation doesnt give you an option and the only Aux formation requires a minimum of 2. And unless its in the formation, it cannot benefit from the coordinated fire for +1BS

Damn you GW and your moneygrabbing tactics.... lol

Said formation isnt even that great either, considering what the hell is firing to cause those effects.

If im playing bigger than 2k points though, im still bringing my stormsurge via the tiny CAD im bringing for Skyrays lol.
I could run the formation for skyrays but i dont own 4 hammerhead bodies, and even though i like hammerheads i kinda dont want 3 of them lol

The Core formation DOES allow for Stormsurges. It's literally the last option (along with Sniper Drones, Hammerheads and Broadsides)

well...no idea how i missed that lol...derp

It occurs to me that Sniper Drones + Gunrig is one of the best markerlight sources in the book.

3 marksmen = 3 BS5 markerlights (minimum drones)

Tau Gunrig Firebase rule allows you to reroll to-hit rolls of 1 and The mobile defense platform allows it to move 6" while letting models on it remain stationary.

So you have Markerlights that hit 99% of the time that you can move and shoot, plus your drone (BS5 thanks to marksman drone controller!) can fire the TL railgun.

And as a small, almost negligible bonus, your other 2 sniper drones can reroll their sniper shots.

Unless someone can find something wrong with this, a min Tau CAD with the gunrig and a Hunter Cadre with a sniper drone team will be in every list I make.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
This is true. And people are more likely to include Sniper Drones now days.
Their only real problem is they were outshined by their competition. I fully intend to start fielding sniper drone teams.

Well just ran this with 5 drone networks attached to a Hunter Cadre for the Contingent. It was disturbing the kind of outbut and damage I was doing. PLayed against a DE list with Venoms, Ravengers, and Raiders. Also ran a PEN equiped body guard. The TL, BS6, Tankhunting drones shredded the skimmers. Then swapping to Monster hunter to punish the Chronos and Talos was gravy while always able to but the bonus were it worked best.

Also ran a minimum buffmander, but he got targeted out of the Broadside team turn one, so no idea how he would have played. The 6 minimum Firewarriors squads +5 Drone networks made it really easy to have BS4 FWs everywhere. Downside is overkill can be a serious problem.

Also, what does everyone think of the Strike Team turrets?

 McNinja wrote:
Also, what does everyone think of the Strike Team turrets?[/quote

Useful I think, a good way to get heavy weapons int FW teams at least. Both missiles are good choices for FW that need to hold ground.

MilkmanAl wrote:
This problem is actually a bit of a complex one once you start trying to shoehorn all of your units into an efficient list. At this very early stage, a buff suit of some kind seems more or less mandatory in games of, like, 1000+ points, to throw out a rather arbitrary number. As you said, sticking a buffmander with Marker Drones is sub optimal because you're forced to either waste a bunch of marker lights or not get your buffmander buffs on whatever wants to use the markers. That's a big issue for me since I've always leaned heavily towards a Mark'o and drones as my marker light source. Pathfinders I find quite underwhelming, mostly due to how fragile they are, and Skyrays and Tetras are pretty tough to come by if you're using the Hunter Contingent. If you want to avoid using Pathfinders (and I do), the best options I can come up with are these:

1) Have 2 commanders: a Mark'o and a buffmander. In a Hunter Contingent, this option costs you a Crisis Bodyguard tax since you'll have to take a Command formation to get the second Commander. I don't see this one as a particularly good use of points.

I think you are correct this is the biggest problem I also faced whilst building lists with the cadre; How to get a buffmander AND a Mark'O.

But I think this solution you offered (Getting a Command with a commander and a bodyguard) is the best option. The bodyguard has a lot of ways to get milleage out of him and you're only paying a really small tax (the upgrade to shas'vre. You see, I think solo crisis suits are not bad units at all, I used them extensively in the Farsight supplement with great succes.

E.g. 2x missle pods(1x twin-linked), sit on/go for objectives, stay out of los. << That was how I used them, now, added bonus, can easily help create a concentrated fire attack. People don't like to waste their fire on him (even if they can see him), if he dies no big loss, if not, the shots add up. He's even pretty decent anti air (because of the one twin linked pod).

2x fusion(1x twin-linked), suicide melta, always good, again can easily contribute to get the fire power buff.

2x ABF! Seems like a fun way to hide out of LOS and spam pie-plates.


Now, doing this you get your 2x commander.

The only other way to get the second commander (retaliation) suffers from the formation; you REALLY want to DS him, but if you put him in reserve you can't get ML turn one, and can't join the drones at all. (You could join a crisis team from the formation with target locks and drones, this is actually a decent option, your markerlights arrive from DS turn 2 and can't be alpha-ed...bad scatters however...

So in conclusion, if you want buffmander and mark'o, I think the command formation is the easiest/best way to get it.

 McNinja wrote:
It occurs to me that Sniper Drones + Gunrig is one of the best markerlight sources in the book.

3 marksmen = 3 BS5 markerlights (minimum drones)

Tau Gunrig Firebase rule allows you to reroll to-hit rolls of 1 and The mobile defense platform allows it to move 6" while letting models on it remain stationary.

So you have Markerlights that hit 99% of the time that you can move and shoot, plus your drone (BS5 thanks to marksman drone controller!) can fire the TL railgun.

And as a small, almost negligible bonus, your other 2 sniper drones can reroll their sniper shots.

Unless someone can find something wrong with this, a min Tau CAD with the gunrig and a Hunter Cadre with a sniper drone team will be in every list I make.

I was thinking that sniper drones in general are just a good source of marker lights in general. The network marker lights mean that they can contribute to both coordinated firepower and still use their marker lights. About 80% of the time, all 3 will hit which is enough to remove cover and boost everyone to bs5 (assuming you got the +1 from coordinated firepower) Even if only 2 hit you can remove cover and bs4 is not too bad. Sniper drones are much more survivable than regular pathfinders, having T4 SV4+ and stealth. Also with pathfinders you need 4 marker light hits to get bs5 and ignores cover because they don't contribute to coordinated firepower. The sniper gun isn't too shabby either.

I had a situation come up with the coordinated firepower rule that my opponent was trying to contend - it seemed fair enough but I'm curious so I'm going to see what others might think.

The issue came up when I had my Mark'o commander split fire from three of his drones to hit another unit while he and a unit of Kroot and a Ghost Keel fired at a different unit in the building.

He was saying that the rules for split fire say that only one model from the unit could split there fire and since the commander joined in with the Kroot & Keel that only one of the drones would be able to fire a markerlight. I was contesting that since he's the one model firing he essentially counts as his own unit to join in on the coordinated firepower and that it didn't effect how many drones could shoot regardless of the split-fire rule...

I still believe that my way was the proper way but he insisted and since he was already having a rough game at this point I dropped the argument and proceeded as though only one marker-light had hit.

What do everyone else think?

I know there was some ideas proposed as far as giving a Riptide a couple drones and giving it the target lock so that his drones could count towards a number of units firing to receive the coordinated fire power. Or in the case of a Buff-O with a unit of Target locked crisis suits.



Would it be possible to get multiple coordinated fire-power in this way?

Target Lock allows the model to shoot at a different target than the rest of his unit. I don't understand why the marker drones were involved in this argument, however... was it a line of sight issue? Did he believe only one other model could shoot because your commander used his Target Lock?

The way I see if, if the commander used his Target Lock, he would count as a single unit for Coordinated Firepower at that target. If the rest of his unit fired somewhere else, they would not get the +1 to BS unless they too participated in Coordinated Firepower at that target.

It wasn't a line of sight issue I had six drones available only three could see the target and I didn't have them benefit from the coordinated fire-power since they were firing at a separate unit. The Commander joined in with the Keel & Kroot to fire at a different unit to gain the +1 to their BS...

seemed fair to me.

He just didn't think that I would be able to fire with more than one drone because the Split Fire rule says that only one model can split their fire from the target and even though I kept insisting that it was the Commander who was splitting his fire he argued that because the Commander was being counted as part of the larger unit for coordinated firepower that it was the drones splitting their fire from that unit and that only one of them would be able to do it...

I just didn't know what else to say to the guy - he's a nice enough guy so I don't want to say anything bad just trying to get some clarification.

Tau dont have Split Fire, we have Target Locks. Target Locks do not confer Split Fire, they specifically say "May fire at a different target" - this is not split fire.

GW really needs to put a FAQ up but the way i see it, if targetlocks are involved they are treated separately just like markerlights. Marks dont buff the entire squad if theyre shooting different targets, they only buff the ones hitting the marked unit - i dont see why Coordinated Fire would behave any different.

As in: 3 crisis suits in 1 unit. Two declare Coordinated Fire with a couple of Firewarrior squads and gain +1BS. The third that fired on his own, does not.
Unless they FAQ it to say only the "primary target of the unit" gains the benefit from Coordinated Fire, which would make sense from a balance perspective.

That's a great distinction with splitfire and target locks - thanks Vine!

Another related question.. what if like in your example the two crisis suits and the fire warriors coordinate their fire on one unit while the third suit splits fire off joining another two units firing at a separate target - would that count for coordinated fire?

Anyone else have difficulty building a Hunter contingent without a Darkstrider CAD?

 digital-animal wrote:
That's a great distinction with splitfire and target locks - thanks Vine!

Another related question.. what if like in your example the two crisis suits and the fire warriors coordinate their fire on one unit while the third suit splits fire off joining another two units firing at a separate target - would that count for coordinated fire?

Thats the part that to me is impossible to say RAW even though its clearly legal. Logic would dictate that they are no longer their normal unit for this shooting, and the individual models joins the "coordinated unit" - THAT makes sense to me rather than saying "This model is a part of this unit and also this unit" ... keep in mind thats just a logical assumption and how i intend to rule it, since i absolutely hate RAW gameplay since so many rules are broken RAW to be unusable, or have an illogical restriction/effect (i.e. one that makes absolutely 0 sense to allow). It still leaves a gray area about the Buffmander though, which i really cannot say how it would work without either contradicting myself or adding in an exceptional thing specifically to him.

And if your friend tries to claim its still splitfire, thats by far not the only rule that behaves like another rule without being that rule. Necrons have a "sniper" that wounds on a 2+ but its neither a Sniper nor Fleshbane. Snipers wound GMCs on a 6, but since said unit is not using Sniper rules it still wounds on a 2+. Behaves exactly like a buffed up sniper but its NOT a sniper.

You can not join a units fire with target locks because of timing. Each unit fires separately. The coordinated firepower rule lets you join the units target. A target lock lets you fire at a new unit at the same time. So when the second unit starts to fire the first unit and the model with the target lock already finished firing.

That...makes no sense
How can they "A target lock lets you fire at a new unit at the same time" while also "target lock already finished firing" in the same context?

Target Locks happens simo. You have to declare everything before you roll anything, its been that way forever. Stormsurge is the only one i dont really bother because it has so many guns its hard to keep track of it as you go through (i just declare how many guns im firing at one unit so i dont cheat the system).

Target Locks literally just says "A model with Target Locks may fire at a different unit to the rest of his unit"
Choose A Target mentions nothing about splitfire or any other rule that involves targeting multiple units, however the "declaring targets before rolling" still applies.
Splitfire DOES say it fires before the rest of the unit, but as i mentioned before Target Locks are NOT Splitfire.

Yes, Coordinated Fire does work with Target Locks. If it didnt, it would shake the foundation Tau players are used to so hard it would be comical. Furthermore, Coordinated Fire specifically says you declare multiple units at once. Your argument about timing both on splitfire and between units would make the rule impossible to use period.

So am I the only one that thinks a Relation Cadre can be very powerful in a Hunter Contingent? The potential of deep striking Rail Sides with Relentless can be rather powerful, along with the ability to have some lone Melta-Suits or whatever dropping in.

It also does settle some of the issues with wanting a Mark'o and Buffmander in the same list.

 Tinkrr wrote:
So am I the only one that thinks a Relation Cadre can be very powerful in a Hunter Contingent? The potential of deep striking Rail Sides with Relentless can be rather powerful, along with the ability to have some lone Melta-Suits or whatever dropping in.

It also does settle some of the issues with wanting a Mark'o and Buffmander in the same list.

I like it - I like it even more if you have a few homing beacons in your list.

Most people would think that OSC and Ret. Force would work well together, but they actually do not, and it's all because of the Ghostkeels. If you want the keels and sealthsuits to have their formation rule, they need to be close to each other, and they can't be close to each other if the stealthsuits are infiltrating, which would be the case since you want the homing beacons in specific areas so you can be there and not die to scatter turn 2.

Unless you have confidence that the formation can all get to where you need them to be by the end of your turn 1.