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Grizzyzz wrote:Just to be clear, shadowsun can join a squad that does not have the infiltrate rule, she just cannot be "infiltrating" unless both her and the squad she joins has the rule. This was in the brb faq for reference and it clearly is written as the verb.

No, she can't. The newest FAQ tell us ICs with Infiltrate cannot join units without Infiltrate, and vice versa (the vice versa isn't in the BRB books). So, the only way to bring Shadowsun is with Stealth Suits or Kroot; Vespids, if you use Allied Advance Cadre; Pathfinders, if you use Ranged Support Cadre.

 Vector Strike wrote:


No, she can't. The newest FAQ tell us ICs with Infiltrate cannot join units without Infiltrate, and vice versa (the vice versa isn't in the BRB books). So, the only way to bring Shadowsun is with Stealth Suits or Kroot; Vespids, if you use Allied Advance Cadre; Pathfinders, if you use Ranged Support Cadre.

The FAQ states "an IC without the infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of 'infiltrators' during deployment and vice versa"

It's very clear they are nerfing infiltrate bombs. As stating "infiltrators" aka units in the act of infiltrating. SS can join crisis suits... Start on the table, outflank, deepstrike, but cannot infiltrate with them.

Likewise stealthsuits cannot be joined with a commander and infiltrate, but may deploy any other way.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:


No, she can't. The newest FAQ tell us ICs with Infiltrate cannot join units without Infiltrate, and vice versa (the vice versa isn't in the BRB books). So, the only way to bring Shadowsun is with Stealth Suits or Kroot; Vespids, if you use Allied Advance Cadre; Pathfinders, if you use Ranged Support Cadre.

The FAQ states "an IC without the infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of 'infiltrators' during deployment and vice versa"

It's very clear they are nerfing infiltrate bombs. As stating "infiltrators" aka units in the act of infiltrating. SS can join crisis suits... Start on the table, outflank, deepstrike, but cannot infiltrate with them.

Likewise stealthsuits cannot be joined with a commander and infiltrate, but may deploy any other way.

You can't *not* infiltrate. If a unit has the infiltrators rule, it's infiltrating (or starting in reserves) and cannot be joined by a character without it.

 Thud wrote:


You can't *not* infiltrate. If a unit has the infiltrators rule, it's infiltrating (or starting in reserves) and cannot be joined by a character without it.

Where anywhere does it say that units that have the infiltrate rule have to actually infiltrate? It doesn't.

Thats correct, you have the OPTION to Infiltrate if you so choose to, nothing says you cannot just deploy them as normal.

I'm at work, so if either of you could quote the first two sentences of the infiltrators rule for me, that'd be great.

 Thud wrote:
I'm at work, so if either of you could quote the first two sentences of the infiltrators rule for me, that'd be great.

Same.

Lets look at a similar situation. a model with deepstrike. Under the deepstrike rule it doesn't say "has the option" or "may choose too" (atleast I don't believe so), but by no means do we require people to always deepstrike crisis suits, terminators, etc.

Absolutely nothing says you have to infiltrate if you have it, the only restriction is you cant deploy normally since is says "units with at least 1 model with this rule ARE deployed last" but that obviously doesnt prevent reserves since it confers Outflank too. Shadowsun can deepstrike or outflank, and thats how she joins different units.
You specify what units are in reserves, and when you do that you group the ICs together. Otherwise ICs literally could NEVER deploy via reserves with a unit. If you deepstrike, you are not infiltrating.

Infiltrate is the rule in question, "Infiltrators" is the action of the rule.

Ork codex specifically mentions under Snikrot's rule: "If Boss Snikrot joins a unit of Kommandos that are held in Reserves, and no other Independent Characters join the unit, then Snikrot's unit can move on from ... " rest goes on describing the ambush rule. Orks have no other character that can join Kommandos except via outflank. Its a thing. I used to do it all the damn time with Ghazzy but they changed Snikrot to disallow me from showing behind my opponent so now i have to outflank normally. It clearly mentions ICs CAN join the unit, but not if you want Snikrot's special rule.

All that FAQ means is you cannot infiltrate a noninfiltrating unit with an IC. Meaning we cannot simply give our broadsides the best possible firing position without ever moving or deepstriking.

Deepstrike does give you the option, it says "SOME units must be held in reserves" meaning only ones that specifically say they have to be in reserves are required to deepstrike. Rest is optional (oh god if i HAD to deepstrike tau would be unplayable, so many mishaps).

However this is going into YMDC territory, and i despise that kind of talk because people love hanging on the tiniest wording hole to completely bypass huge rules (such as the whole vehicles and Ruins debacle still giving vehicles a 4+ even if theyre not 25% covered) I prefer to play logically - if it makes no damn sense and its not specifically worded clearly in that manner, it doesnt happen.

Also I dont think the Riptide Wing is part of the Dawnblade Contingent meaning it is probably meant for the Tau forces outside the Enclaves. Not saying we cant take it but we would have to take something else in order to field it with our FSE forces.

Based on what we've seen so far, the Riptide Wing is not part of the Dawnblade Contingent, neither is the Ghostkeel Wing. They also aren't part of the Hunter Contingent. Both of them are just regular formations. They don't fit into a Decurion style detachment, and are just meant to be taken by itself attached to any army that can ally with Tau. This is why they're so powerful compared to the other formations; the other formations get the Contingent special rules plus their formation special rules, while the Wings only get their formation special rules (at least, that's what I'm guessing GW's logic is).

Didnt even notice that but Gl_Redshirt is right. The Riptide/Ghostkeel formation is not listed as an Aux option.

Thats...interesting.

Though i admit i am VERY interested in the Ghostkeel one. Giving majority of my table Stealth is massive lol
Also i mainly want Ghostkeels because they can easily sit in front of my forces and eat melee assuming its not a melee star. The ability to let them charge and deny overwatch is hilarious.
"Enemy units cannot make Overwatch attacsk against a unit from this Formation that is within 6" of another unit from this Formation when overwatch attacks would be made"
Meaning if i have 2 of them assault, you cant overwatch me. Eat that, Devastators or Grav units!! lol

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Didnt even notice that but Gl_Redshirt is right. The Riptide/Ghostkeel formation is not listed as an Aux option.

Thats...interesting.

Though i admit i am VERY interested in the Ghostkeel one. Giving majority of my table Stealth is massive lol

Not to mention I may finally be able to charge Farsight into something without dieing to overwatch!

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Infiltrate is the rule in question, "Infiltrators" is the action of the rule.

"Infiltrate" is the name of the special rule. Infiltrators are those with the special rule.


The infiltrate rule states you deploy last, and wherever you want (with some restrictions). Not that you may choose to deploy in a different manner than normal. If a unit has this rule, this is how it deploys. Stating that a unit with the rule cannot deploy normally would be redundant.

FAQ states ICs without the rule cannot join infiltrators during deployment, and vice versa.

I opened a thread discussing the infiltrate rule as it is a little off topic. It's under "40k you decide"

So, this is by no means optimal but since i dont play that way im totally doing it.

Bodyguards are not limited to signature systems like Crisis Suit Shas'uis are, they are granted the same privilege commanders are. We have a couple of signature systems im willing to bet alot of people forgot exist, since we never ever use it.

Failsafe Detonator and Repulsor Impact Field

Solo bodyguard with duo flamers/stims charges troops. If he gets charged, he causes D6 free S4 hits. If he dies, he takes them with him via S5 blast.

Totally not a tournament level trick but its funny as gak.

Oh and give him the NSJ for the lawls since hes definitely in range of something to make them Gets Hot for a turn.

WRT the Skyray missile issue (shooting all of them). I have a gut feeling that when they say "missiles" in the context of being able to shoot all of them GW means "one-shot weapons on flyers," not anything with "missile" in the name.

So am I reading it wrong or did GW dun goofed? Farsight Enclaves crisis suits are troops choices...but there's no way to take them in a CAD so that they gain Objective: Secured, and the command benefits in the dawn blade detachment do not include that troops are objective: secured.

Objective secured is a Bound List perk, not specifically CAD. You can field the big formations and its still considered Bound.

However i find it odd that Crisis Suits arent listed with firewarriors in the "troop" category too. Especially considering hes normally forced to take 1 unit of crisis suits as a troop to begin with.

 luke1705 wrote:
So am I reading it wrong or did GW dun goofed? Farsight Enclaves crisis suits are troops choices...but there's no way to take them in a CAD so that they gain Objective: Secured, and the command benefits in the dawn blade detachment do not include that troops are objective: secured.

The Farsight Enclaves supplement is still valid... so you can still take Crisis Suits as troops in a CAD.

DirtyDeeds wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
So am I reading it wrong or did GW dun goofed? Farsight Enclaves crisis suits are troops choices...but there's no way to take them in a CAD so that they gain Objective: Secured, and the command benefits in the dawn blade detachment do not include that troops are objective: secured.

The Farsight Enclaves supplement is still valid... so you can still take Crisis Suits as troops in a CAD.

Not after next saturday. this book replaces the supplement (and will let crisis as troops as well)

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Objective secured is a Bound List perk, not specifically CAD. You can field the big formations and its still considered Bound.

However i find it odd that Crisis Suits arent listed with firewarriors in the "troop" category too. Especially considering hes normally forced to take 1 unit of crisis suits as a troop to begin with.

ObSec isn't a Bound list perk. It is a perk to detachments that grant it. Just because you are playing a bound list does not mean you get ObSec.

 Vector Strike wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
So am I reading it wrong or did GW dun goofed? Farsight Enclaves crisis suits are troops choices...but there's no way to take them in a CAD so that they gain Objective: Secured, and the command benefits in the dawn blade detachment do not include that troops are objective: secured.

The Farsight Enclaves supplement is still valid... so you can still take Crisis Suits as troops in a CAD.

Not after next saturday. this book replaces the supplement (and will let crisis as troops as well)

Does the campaign book specifically say this?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Objective secured is a Bound List perk, not specifically CAD. You can field the big formations and its still considered Bound.

However i find it odd that Crisis Suits arent listed with firewarriors in the "troop" category too. Especially considering hes normally forced to take 1 unit of crisis suits as a troop to begin with.

ObSec isn't a Bound list perk. It is a perk to detachments that grant it. Just because you are playing a bound list does not mean you get ObSec.

Truth....so.....?

Has anyone played around with a Fish of Fury swarm style of list? I think the new Skyray formation isn't exactly bad, and it does provide a nice Devilfish for your Ethereal formation that's super hard to kill, and gives your army a lot of ability to just hang out and do its thing.

Not only that but the Piranha formation is also rather strong since it can vomit out drones to go along with the idea of having more bodies they can possibly deal with, and they do benefit from your Ethereal group that has enough survival with Aun'va and other things that they should very rarely give up the victory points if played right.

Oh, and the tactical turrets the Fire Warrior squads can take now do help with the issue of losing out on missiles when maxing out troops instead of taking Crisis Suits. The troops that now have Stubborn, leadership 10, and a FNP save D:

 Vector Strike wrote:
Not after next saturday. this book replaces the supplement (and will let crisis as troops as well)

This is a campaign book it does not replace the supplement book just like the Kyuon book doesn't replace the Tau Codex. This book only introduces the Dawn Contingent, hence why there are rumors of a new Farsight book next year.

 gmaleron wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
Not after next saturday. this book replaces the supplement (and will let crisis as troops as well)

This is a campaign book it does not replace the supplement book just like the Kyuon book doesn't replace the Tau Codex. This book only introduces the Dawn Contingent, hence why there are rumors of a new Farsight book next year.

Actually, Kauyon DOES replace the Tau Codex in so far as we're talking about the entries that get updated within Kauyon.
Farsight is effectively invalidated by Mont'ka, as it is intended to work as a replacement. It even retains the caveat of "Crisis Suits in a Farsight Detachment become Troops".

 luke1705 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Objective secured is a Bound List perk, not specifically CAD. You can field the big formations and its still considered Bound.

However i find it odd that Crisis Suits arent listed with firewarriors in the "troop" category too. Especially considering hes normally forced to take 1 unit of crisis suits as a troop to begin with.

ObSec isn't a Bound list perk. It is a perk to detachments that grant it. Just because you are playing a bound list does not mean you get ObSec.

Truth....so.....?

So hes trying to make sure vineheart isn't giving out ObSec to everyone when they don't actually get it.

 Wolfnid420 wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Objective secured is a Bound List perk, not specifically CAD. You can field the big formations and its still considered Bound.

However i find it odd that Crisis Suits arent listed with firewarriors in the "troop" category too. Especially considering hes normally forced to take 1 unit of crisis suits as a troop to begin with.

ObSec isn't a Bound list perk. It is a perk to detachments that grant it. Just because you are playing a bound list does not mean you get ObSec.

Truth....so.....?

So hes trying to make sure vineheart isn't giving out ObSec to everyone when they don't actually get it.

Precisely. Vineheart01's statement makes it seem like he/she is giving ALL bound lists ObSec. That is very much incorrect.

i was wrong on that statement yes. Sorry bout that.

Not that it ever matters anyway. Literally never had a situation where obsec means anything - one side always gets wiped out

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i was wrong on that statement yes. Sorry bout that.

Not that it ever matters anyway. Literally never had a situation where obsec means anything - one side always gets wiped out

Pretty much. Who needs to worry about ObSec when you can blast your opponent off the table?

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i was wrong on that statement yes. Sorry bout that.

Not that it ever matters anyway. Literally never had a situation where obsec means anything - one side always gets wiped out

Pretty much. Who needs to worry about ObSec when you can blast your opponent off the table?

The best defense is a good offense I suppose D: