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Does any codex specifically state that the old one is no longer valid?

 gmaleron wrote:

 carldooley wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Its what I mean, it doesn't say they can take it and doesn't say they cant take it, I don't have my book on me right now (at work) so I appreciate you clarifying. It just makes 0 sense that Relic that is clearly intended for use by Riptides can no longer be taken by Riptides. Also, from what I remember nowhere in the Campaign Book does it say that the Farsight Enclaves Supplement is Illegal nor have I seen anything saying that it cant be used anymore so I will continue to use that if I have to.

and a person who insists that they can still use Marbo because he was in the last Imperial Guard Codex (because the new one wasn't called Codex: Imperial Guard and wasn't superceded) isn't laughed out of every tournament he tries to attend?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKMMCPeiQoc

Completely different situation and not at all relatable, please tell me where it says that Mont'Ka is replacing the stand alone Farsight Enclaves Codex? Because Mont'Ka is a Campaign book and like other Campaign Books they use armies that are found in other Codex's, why should they be able to run out of their Codex's if they so choose to but the Farsight Enclaves cant?

First of all, "Farsight Enclaves" wasn't a Codex.
It's "Farsight Enclaves, a Codex: Tau Empire Supplement".
Second, that book was NOT a "standalone". You could not field it without Tau Empire.

Additionally, it does not really need to "say" that Mont'ka is replacing the book. They never say that "X book replaces X book's previous edition"; common sense dictates that yes it does replace it.

 Kanluwen wrote:

First of all, "Farsight Enclaves" wasn't a Codex.
It's "Farsight Enclaves, a Codex: Tau Empire Supplement".
Second, that book was NOT a "standalone". You could not field it without Tau Empire.

So according to this the Farisght Enclaves Supplement is still legal as the new Codex is also called Codex: Tau Empire, it didn't change and it was why people still able field it before the release of Mont'Ka. And we all know the new Codex was a reprint with just the new units and Formations added in, also it is still available on GW's website. Campaign Books (or Expansions as they are listed on GW's website) don't invalidate Codex's because if that was the case then you could not field Raven Guard or White Scares out of the Space Marine Codex, nor could the Blood Angels use their Codex since they were in Shield of Baal. Since Mont'Ka is listed under "Warzone Damocles" and not as a Codex therefore it does not invalidate the Farsight Enclaves Supplement, it just gives you some new Formations and a Detachment to run the Farsight Enclaves out of that Campaign Book with specific rules for that Detachment.

If you want to run the book, then just run the damn book. It seems like the people you play with will let you.

However, if you want to run things as FSE? You get NOTHING from Mont'ka, as those are supplements for Tau Empire not Farsight Enclaves.

 Kanluwen wrote:
If you want to run the book, then just run the damn book. It seems like the people you play with will let you.

However, if you want to run things as FSE? You get NOTHING from Mont'ka, as those are supplements for Tau Empire not Farsight Enclaves.

I can still run things from Mont'ka, just not the Dawnblade Detachment. I can add any Formation from the Mont'Ka book to a standard CAD from the Farsight Enclaves Codex without penalty, also the Farsight Enclaves Codex states:

"A Farsight Enclaves army is chosen using the army list presented in Codex: Tau Empire. It also has a series of supplemental rules (presented below) that can be used in addition to the material found in Codex: Tau Empire. Note that you can only use the options from one codex supplement when choosing your army."

So there is nothing stopping me from using the Formations found in Mont'Ka and running them with a standard CAD with the Farsight Enclaves Supplement. I just cannot use the Dawnblade Detachment.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:

 _ghost_ wrote:
Regarding the ECPA : Rule wise ists clear that with th Mont'ka Book a normal Riptide cant get it. Fact. There is also no ambiguity here. As a normal Riptide has no access to FE relics...

O'Vesa on the other side get that ECPA. perhaps... just perhaps its RAI that only he gets this one and such ECPA has its Nova Rules ...

The problem is that RAW, O'Vesa has an illegal loadout. He, as defined in the eight formation, is just a normal riptide with all of his upgrades and the associated special rules. None of those rules allow him to take an ECPA if a normal riptide could not (which is the case). Definitely a simple oversight as there is no current way to approach the rules that make sense. It's like Ravenwing HQ level of bad. Any FSE Riptide will definitely be able to take the ECPA, as there is no other way to satisfy O'Vesa's item requirements.

So go ahead in good conscience and run a riptide with an ECPA, since even if you think that it's only meant for O'Vesa, then why does it have a cost in the relic section? Who can actually purchase and use it for 30 points?

That being said, I think it's kind of moot since the Riptide wing is so much better. Although, I really don't plan on fielding the wing. We're not quite at 4 source format yet for the ITC, which is what I would need to field it. The other option would be the 4 or 5 riptides the Notre Dame has outlined, and I really am not about that life. 3 is pushing it for me. More likely, I'll just grab a stormsurge and call it a day.

Not the case, All the members of the Eight are Independent Characters, and it is clear that "characters in FSE" may take relics, so O'Vesa is good to go! Except you will never take him, because the Eight formation is not viable in normal sized games.. =(

Ok so you got me there I did miss that line, therefore making O'Vesa able to take the ECPA. However, explain to me this:

Name a single model in all of 40k who can pay 30 points for the ECPA and actually USE its Nova Reactor function? Since no Riptide variants that I'm aware of are characters, this seems like a clear mistake to me

Okay, can we take the Riptide ECPA discussion over to YMDC and keep this thread talking about tactics please? Pretty please? With a cherry on top?

Seems like a fair and reasonable request.

Has anyone tried out the FSE CAD yet? I'm still getting mine tabletop-ready but I'm pretty set on bringing that with a formation or two

Do you mean a FSE Hunter Cad? They can't really take a FSE CAD and the Ret CAD is pretty pricey, though I'm planning to run it.

 Tinkrr wrote:
Do you mean a FSE Hunter Cad? They can't really take a FSE CAD and the Ret CAD is pretty pricey, though I'm planning to run it.

Why not? Normal troops or XV8 suits as troops, HQ, access to Farsight SIG systems & Warlord traits. Right?

A CAD is a specific thing

Well, it's easier and cheaper to run a FSE CAD since you no longer need a full unit of crisis suits. An ethereal and a single crisis suit with flamers will only set you back 82 points.

I have run a Dawnblade Detachment, and it's alright. It's a little easier for your opponents than a Hunter Contingent since you won't be taking a Stormsurge.

I cannot find the restriction on taking Aun'va or Shadowsun, yay for more options!

Someone asked is a FSE CAD viable? HECK YEAH Brother! I have been running FSE pretty exclusively since I started playing Tau. Love it. Honestly though, I am really enjoying the DBC. I feel like I am a broken record here.. haha but I love how subtle it is. Really seems weak, but is rock solid.

stibemies wrote:
I cannot find the restriction on taking Aun'va or Shadowsun, yay for more options!

Let's just say if you follow Montka rules for an FSE detachment,

- ANY Tau Empire detachment may be FSE (this means a CAD or any formation)
- xv8s are troops (with no minimum squad size requirement)
- no restrictions on HQs (shadowsun and aun'va may be taken)

I don't think I missed anything else XD

 luke1705 wrote:

Ok so you got me there I did miss that line, therefore making O'Vesa able to take the ECPA. However, explain to me this:

Name a single model in all of 40k who can pay 30 points for the ECPA and actually USE its Nova Reactor function? Since no Riptide variants that I'm aware of are characters, this seems like a clear mistake to me

Name a single model in all of 40k that can't use a re-roll for failed To Hit rolls?

There's more to the ECPA than just the Nova Reactor function.

I actually rocked a hunter cadre with the dawnblade. I used an OSC and kept the ghostkeels on the table, took out the closest markerlights, then held on to my knickers until my turn 2. Worked really well.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:

Ok so you got me there I did miss that line, therefore making O'Vesa able to take the ECPA. However, explain to me this:

Name a single model in all of 40k who can pay 30 points for the ECPA and actually USE its Nova Reactor function? Since no Riptide variants that I'm aware of are characters, this seems like a clear mistake to me

Name a single model in all of 40k that can't use a re-roll for failed To Hit rolls?

There's more to the ECPA than just the Nova Reactor function.

And there is even one that can use the Nova Reactor Funktion... its called O'Vesa

 _ghost_ wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:

Ok so you got me there I did miss that line, therefore making O'Vesa able to take the ECPA. However, explain to me this:

Name a single model in all of 40k who can pay 30 points for the ECPA and actually USE its Nova Reactor function? Since no Riptide variants that I'm aware of are characters, this seems like a clear mistake to me

Name a single model in all of 40k that can't use a re-roll for failed To Hit rolls?

There's more to the ECPA than just the Nova Reactor function.

And there is even one that can use the Nova Reactor Funktion... its called O'Vesa

He doesn't pay 30 points for it though, which was my point. I agree that this should probably stick to YMDC call though.

 luke1705 wrote:

 _ghost_ wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:

Ok so you got me there I did miss that line, therefore making O'Vesa able to take the ECPA. However, explain to me this:

Name a single model in all of 40k who can pay 30 points for the ECPA and actually USE its Nova Reactor function? Since no Riptide variants that I'm aware of are characters, this seems like a clear mistake to me

Name a single model in all of 40k that can't use a re-roll for failed To Hit rolls?

There's more to the ECPA than just the Nova Reactor function.

And there is even one that can use the Nova Reactor Funktion... its called O'Vesa

He doesn't pay 30 points for it though, which was my point. I agree that this should probably stick to YMDC call though.

Um, no. He absolutely DOES pay 30 points for it.

Formations never list points costs, but the models contained within are not free.

Ovesa and the rest of The Eight are not listed as costs, either in the formation or in the FSE book. You are suppose to calculate what his cost is depending on his wargear.

Ovesa is over 300pts, because he has 2 25pt drones and the ECPA as well as 3 support items. Yes he has more stuff than a Riptide is normally allowed, it doesnt matter because he is a special character. Which is why i dont get why people are arguing he cant get the ECPA thanks to the wording flop denying normal Riptides the ECPA. If hes listed with it, he has it regardless of the rest of the dex until FAQ'd out

This is the worst thread ever. I just filtered through page after page of fighting like y'all are little kids. I was hoping to see talk about "tactics" like what of the new formations are proving effective or not, what new units are fun to play with, maybe if people find the new turret option for Firewarriors to be worth while... Can I suggest that if you want to fight about rules to start another thread saying "tau questions/possible rule conficts" or something and leave this thread for TACTICS

 thefallenjackal wrote:
This is the worst thread ever. I just filtered through page after page of fighting like y'all are little kids. I was hoping to see talk about "tactics" like what of the new formations are proving effective or not, what new units are fun to play with, maybe if people find the new turret option for Firewarriors to be worth while... Can I suggest that if you want to fight about rules to start another thread saying "tau questions/possible rule conficts" or something and leave this thread for TACTICS

Hear, hear! Exalted! I already said much the same thing, albeit with less vehemence, a few posts ago.

Most of these rules disputes are the result of tactics discussion, sorry but that's what happens when the rules are unclear to the point that we need to first discuss them in order to talk about tactics at all.

I mean after all, the tactical benefit of an ECPA changes greatly if you can't use it on a Riptide, and the Piranha drone spawn does too when you can only do it every other turn, and so forth and so on.

 Tinkrr wrote:
Most of these rules disputes are the result of tactics discussion, sorry but that's what happens when the rules are unclear to the point that we need to first discuss them in order to talk about tactics at all.

I mean after all, the tactical benefit of an ECPA changes greatly if you can't use it on a Riptide, and the Piranha drone spawn does too when you can only do it every other turn, and so forth and so on.

The potential of the ECPA does highlight the benefit of the Riptide Wing.

For example, take the OSC.. then remove a unit or two elsewhere, upgrade the OSC to a RipWing. It is just better (I feel).

The problem with discussing tactics is theyre largely meta, or "You cant do that" discussions. We have a lot of the latter sadly since the Tau rules are so poorly written (though a lot of the debates lately werent even a poorly written rule, just dumb interpretations of a clear rule such as ECPA on Ovesa)

In my meta, fliers are ridiculously uncommon. If i see a flier at all, its usually one Stormraven or one of the Wolves equivalents., which i can take out without dedicated air support (just not easily most of the time). So im used to avoiding VTs because theyre largely a waste of points, meaning im a bit biased when people suggest lists involving them.
Just an example.

Razerous wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:
Most of these rules disputes are the result of tactics discussion, sorry but that's what happens when the rules are unclear to the point that we need to first discuss them in order to talk about tactics at all.

I mean after all, the tactical benefit of an ECPA changes greatly if you can't use it on a Riptide, and the Piranha drone spawn does too when you can only do it every other turn, and so forth and so on.

The potential of the ECPA does highlight the benefit of the Riptide Wing.

For example, take the OSC.. then remove a unit or two elsewhere, upgrade the OSC to a RipWing. It is just better (I feel).

I think it really depends on what you're doing with your list.

The OSC is better in the Hunter Contingent simply because it's comparable and fills the Aux slot, but the same isn't exactly true for the Riptide wing when it comes to the Dawnblade because of how many formations they have that are better, and if they want to run a Ret Cad as their core. That's not to say it can't be similar, just it's more based on the list than the OSC is for the Hunter Contingent as it's really the only Aux choice outside of the minimum drone squad.

The other thing to consider is that the OSC is better at providing a lot of small arms fire and eating armour in a Ret Cad core, while also having homing options, that doesn't force you into four Riptides. The Riptide Wing is stronger fire power overall, but it's not as strong if you're already limited by how many suits your bringing, and don't have that swarm mower from Stormsurges or Strikers. It's really a tough call, both are pretty powerful for different reasons.

Edit: Yes, I know I totally said the OSC is better in Hunter Contingent because it fills an Aux but is worse because it is more redundant, while saying the same for a Riptide Wing and a Ret Cad Core, but that just shows how many factors there are x_x

Yep, I'm really having difficulty choosing.

My current experiment is having a dawn contingent based around retaliation, drone net auxiliary for markerlights and "basic infantry" drones, with an added OSC for the T1 presence.

I'm having zero difficulty choosing because I just received the two Riptides my friend painted and for the record: Wow. Not a tactical comment. Just me being impressed with paint.

But on a serious note, the Tau Empire is great for this reason: I can do whatever Deployment shenanigans any army ever dreamt of. I can field anything but a face busting fist-fest (though I actually did better than i hoped when i tried a melee based Tau force. Nothing I'd take to NOVA but infinite fun for the perplexed looks I generated when it won!). You can play the ranged game, Positional dominance game or even try to gunline (blech, but I admit: you can do it).

Isn't it fun to have a toy box that kinda lets you go DO the thing you like DOING. Kill ratios and crap like that are all good and fine, but just the freedom to make lists of all sorts is a joy to me.

Tactics question, a 12 man FW squad is what like 108 points? What do y'all think about adding 20 points for that for x2 turrets? Either to give it SMS for an added x8 shots or maybe just taking a 6 man squad and taking x2 with the missile pods and go light armour hunting? It's gotta be nice they cannot be targeted by the enemy but it really hampers they're movement if you want to use them

I had a small point team tourney a couple weeks ago, and I brought two 7 man FW squads with a missile pod turret in each. They greatly improved the firepower of the squads to the point I wont field foot slogging FWs again without them. I only managed to get in one game before I had to leave in a hurry to get my wife to the hospital(saying that so people don't bitch about packing up I the middle of a tourney). The pods immobilized then next turn killed a rhino(which admittingly I was going to glance it to death anyway most likely once I fired my pulse rifles) and they killed a drop pod which came close to getting line breaker. So yeah, for the cost of a BK'd firewarrior, the turrets are totally worth it.

As for the SMS vs the MP, that's easy, MP all day. You have plenty if S5 firepower from the FWs, and there is very little that really cares if you take away its cover save at AP5.