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 Vineheart01 wrote:
Airbursts have always been really strong, but only 1 in an army restriction made them kinda pointless. If you were running bursts they were usually useful but who does that lol.

I do and I love them. 129 points (FSE) for 24 s5 shots with JSJ is amazing. Now with +1 BS in retaliation cadre.. they are even better. So good at wiping out troops with high RoF

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Airbursts have always been really strong, but only 1 in an army restriction made them kinda pointless. If you were running bursts they were usually useful but who does that lol.

I do and I love them. 129 points (FSE) for 24 s5 shots with JSJ is amazing. Now with +1 BS in retaliation cadre.. they are even better. So good at wiping out troops with high RoF

Airbursting Fragmentation Projectors are str 4.

DirtyDeeds wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Airbursts have always been really strong, but only 1 in an army restriction made them kinda pointless. If you were running bursts they were usually useful but who does that lol.

I do and I love them. 129 points (FSE) for 24 s5 shots with JSJ is amazing. Now with +1 BS in retaliation cadre.. they are even better. So good at wiping out troops with high RoF

Airbursting Fragmentation Projectors are str 4.

Sorry I was saying "I do" to the who runs burst cannon comment.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Airbursts have always been really strong, but only 1 in an army restriction made them kinda pointless. If you were running bursts they were usually useful but who does that lol.

I do and I love them. 129 points (FSE) for 24 s5 shots with JSJ is amazing. Now with +1 BS in retaliation cadre.. they are even better. So good at wiping out troops with high RoF

Airbursting Fragmentation Projectors are str 4.

Sorry I was saying "I do" to the who runs burst cannon comment.

I stand corrected, burst cannons are fun, but I think the AFP has better anti-horde controll.

personally, I think that it might be more advantageous to run one of each, or a dedicated suit with 2 of each on it. If your opponent is clumped up, the AFP will be worth its weight, while the burst cannon is more effective against a more spread out target.

So, what about Warlord Traits, especially for FSE? I like running Broadsides with Plasma Suits, but the chance of getting the rending trait might make the Missile Pod, or even Burst Cannon, suits better. Then again most of the Warlord Traits we have are kind of whatever, and then a handful are really good :/.

 Tinkrr wrote:
So, what about Warlord Traits, especially for FSE? I like running Broadsides with Plasma Suits, but the chance of getting the rending trait might make the Missile Pod, or even Burst Cannon, suits better. Then again most of the Warlord Traits we have are kind of whatever, and then a handful are really good :/.

The FSE traits are meh. But getting the stubburn/MC/Tank hunter one is worth the risk I think haha.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:
So, what about Warlord Traits, especially for FSE? I like running Broadsides with Plasma Suits, but the chance of getting the rending trait might make the Missile Pod, or even Burst Cannon, suits better. Then again most of the Warlord Traits we have are kind of whatever, and then a handful are really good :/.

The FSE traits are meh. But getting the stubburn/MC/Tank hunter one is worth the risk I think haha.

Well the Tau Empire ones aren't great either, except for a few.

I think the FSE has a lot of pitfalls, but you can get the one you mentioned, or the Rending one, and there's the one that helps in games you don't want to deepstrike your full Ret Cad, and the one that gives them a minus to their reserve rolls, oh and there was the one that makes your general fearless while giving others stubborn. I feel like really only two or so aren't that great, but with FSE we do get to reroll if we want.

 Tinkrr wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:
So, what about Warlord Traits, especially for FSE? I like running Broadsides with Plasma Suits, but the chance of getting the rending trait might make the Missile Pod, or even Burst Cannon, suits better. Then again most of the Warlord Traits we have are kind of whatever, and then a handful are really good :/.

The FSE traits are meh. But getting the stubburn/MC/Tank hunter one is worth the risk I think haha.

Well the Tau Empire ones aren't great either, except for a few.

I think the FSE has a lot of pitfalls, but you can get the one you mentioned, or the Rending one, and there's the one that helps in games you don't want to deepstrike your full Ret Cad, and the one that gives them a minus to their reserve rolls, oh and there was the one that makes your general fearless while giving others stubborn. I feel like really only two or so aren't that great, but with FSE we do get to reroll if we want.

Yeah I agree. I think FSE is Better then TE. A lot of the time I roll on command traits or the maelstrom table.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:
So, what about Warlord Traits, especially for FSE? I like running Broadsides with Plasma Suits, but the chance of getting the rending trait might make the Missile Pod, or even Burst Cannon, suits better. Then again most of the Warlord Traits we have are kind of whatever, and then a handful are really good :/.

The FSE traits are meh. But getting the stubburn/MC/Tank hunter one is worth the risk I think haha.

Well the Tau Empire ones aren't great either, except for a few.

I think the FSE has a lot of pitfalls, but you can get the one you mentioned, or the Rending one, and there's the one that helps in games you don't want to deepstrike your full Ret Cad, and the one that gives them a minus to their reserve rolls, oh and there was the one that makes your general fearless while giving others stubborn. I feel like really only two or so aren't that great, but with FSE we do get to reroll if we want.

Yeah I agree. I think FSE is Better then TE. A lot of the time I roll on command traits or the maelstrom table.

To be fair the TE ones aren't bad either, they're just more list based, but they do let you re-roll pretty easily. Depending on the list I've considered taking Aun'va for the "get down, get up" power, or Shadowsun for the super assault move on a unit. The other traits are still fine, and none of them force you into something if you don't have it, since they can be re-rolled.

If anything, I'd say the Tau traits are the weakest but also the most solid, since you don't really rely on them, but if you play around them you can get a lot of advantage, though you need to constantly plan around them to do so as the game goes on.

I love the trait Aun'Va comes with. Its superlative. Perfect for the way I like to scamper onto the board from all angles, and then i can hit the deck and get heavy duty coversaves and not be penalized because we just pop bvack up from going to ground and continue with plan B

TE warlord traits to me all feel specifically useful. If you get the one that happens to work with your list, awesome! but theres 3-4 others that dont fall under the "If your warlord cant..." comment and you usually get one of those. Unless i ran a named warlord i never got a trait i wanted, and a name warlord usually isnt a wise idea if being competitive. Get one of the others you CAN get but didnt want, it most likely never gets used at all. I can use the Aun'Va one, though i dont typically desire it.

I roll on command traits exclusively now. Add 1 to charge is the only one i dont want period out of there, but i really want the Moves Through Cover, LD10, or Reroll 1s in shooting bubble the most. Its awesome having a commander on one side of your army making everybody ld10 when you already got an ethereal on the other half doing the same lol

 Vineheart01 wrote:
TE warlord traits to me all feel specifically useful. If you get the one that happens to work with your list, awesome! but theres 3-4 others that dont fall under the "If your warlord cant..." comment and you usually get one of those. Unless i ran a named warlord i never got a trait i wanted, and a name warlord usually isnt a wise idea if being competitive. Get one of the others you CAN get but didnt want, it most likely never gets used at all. I can use the Aun'Va one, though i dont typically desire it.

I roll on command traits exclusively now. Add 1 to charge is the only one i dont want period out of there, but i really want the Moves Through Cover, LD10, or Reroll 1s in shooting bubble the most. Its awesome having a commander on one side of your army making everybody ld10 when you already got an ethereal on the other half doing the same lol

Exactly. Command table is solid and every thing is useful.

I admit FSE is probably geared towards suit lists which is fine for me.

I do like TE sky fire for a turn. That is awesome but only if you get it.

So heres a thought.

I normally play 2k lists, and i usually avoid the formations because i feel theyre a bit too tournament-type for me (i prefer to have fun, not utterly stomp my opponent in 3 turns or less). So i really didnt think about any way to run the formations except in nonfriendly lists - until i thought about this one.



I tend to play very aggressive with my firewarriors, even against assaulty armies i'll dash forward and get rapid fire as fast as possible and hover around there. I basically will have a gigantic blob of firewarriors that keep running/shooting or shooting/running (depending on if i got rapidifre before or after running) the entire game.

You gotta admit, 60 firewarriors running around like that sounds hilarious and oddly effective. I used to run a lot of ethereal lists with 40 firewarriors, they usually do a ton of damage.

Sorry a bit of a tangent but I really hate how GW does nothing to create and support a local tournament structure that is appealing to casual players specifically, like Magic does, as that's pretty much the life blood of most other games. It's just looking at how well MtG does it leaves me baffled as to why 40k hasn't created something like that.

Thats because "40k is not a competitive game" despite it clearly being played that way by virtually the entire community. One of many flops done by GW.

Well I mean in general, you can make a competitive or none competitive game, and still focus on the casual players with your tournaments the most. If you look at any highly successful game, they broadcast the top end tournament play, but support the low end the most.

Something like FNM for MtG where you get stuff just for participating and there are free promo cards sent to the store that are awarded to both the winner and to random people, so that you don't have to be as competitive to win stuff, in addition to that Pre-releases and such also offer free promos in a very relaxed tournament environment.

Even online games do it, where just for playing in their ranked system you get rewards at the low to mid tier that is very close to the highest tier. I mean Hearthstone gave free card backs for a tier that you'd get as long as you just played, and now offers extra rewards the higher you go, but the amount you gain at the very low tiers is only slightly removed from a high tier. League of Legends is a little harder on the rewards, but you still get stuff even at the lowest tiers, and you only need to be Gold (You start in Silver usually and Gold is next) to get the best reward in the system unless you're trying to be a professional player.

So yea, a company should really encourage the casual tournament circuit, it's the best way to grow your product, because it appeals to all players and it can be done in such a way that it never becomes too cut throat. I know a lot of people will call a tournament "Casual" and leave it at that, which then results in wonky things, but if a company puts in the time they can literally make a casual tournament circuit that never even mentions the word, as in FNM, Pre-release parties, and much more. The important thing is to reward players just enough, without making it overly lucrative, but also making it so that you have the best chance of gaining something good in those events when compared to high end tournaments that pay out better to the top end, but worse to the average player.

For those that recently started playing 40k and wonder why GW do not support tournaments, the is they use to. They use to support casual and competetive play, at every level from local clubs to FLGS to GW stores to regional to national to internation play. They stopped after a content fiasco players dictated the outcome of an international that the company did not support, which was then followed by huge corporate restructuring/downsizing. What you see today is the aftermath of a second restructuring (possibly a third, quiet restructuring), where the current management are apparently oblivious to the "Game" in Games Workshop, with a focus on market shocking with new models, coffee table edition books, and overpriced DLCs. The fact that GW is currently expanding despite a continued drop in sales points to yet another corporate restructuring in the near future. Their current marketing strategy is not sustainable in falling market, although they are apparently diversifying their product line, which is a sounder long term strategy.

In the end, GW support of a tournament scene is not in the current business plan.

SJ

So in general suits with Burst cannons and AFP are against hordes, how do CIB fair?

arthorn wrote:
So in general suits with Burst cannons and AFP are against hordes, how do CIB fair?

They're amazing. I use a full squad of 3 with two each. Getting 6 strength 7 AP 4 shots per suit for that price is a steal. I run mine in a retaliation cadre as part of a dawn blade detachment. They do suffer from limited range which is why they work best as deep strikers (imo). What makes them shine is their versatility. For less than 160 points, a squad of 3 has 18 strength 7 AP 4 shots! This makes them effective against anything without a 2+ save (though they can still threaten these too with the amount of saves they can make them take) or AV 14 (though they can still harm AV 14 with their overcharged blast mode). They may not be quite as good as burst cannons against hordes, plasma against meq or fusion against heavier vehicles but they are close and still very much cost effective against all of the above making the CIB a perfect choice for a TAC list.

you dont need any VRT? dont you use the blast version?

I rarely use the blast version. Small blasts will hit less than 3 shots against all but the most clumped up units and they get hot. I generally don't give them support systems to keep them as cheap and cost effective as possible, but when I do it's usually target locks to split fire or advanced targeting systems for precision shooting. EWO isn't bad (as always) but since I deep strike mine and they only have 18" range I rarely get to use them. As for vectored retro thrusters, I almost never take these since if the suits see combat they will probably be dead before they get to hit and run.

 chalkobob wrote:
I rarely use the blast version. Small blasts will hit less than 3 shots against all but the most clumped up units and they get hot. I generally don't give them support systems to keep them as cheap and cost effective as possible, but when I do it's usually target locks to split fire or advanced targeting systems for precision shooting. EWO isn't bad (as always) but since I deep strike mine and they only have 18" range I rarely get to use them. As for vectored retro thrusters, I almost never take these since if the suits see combat they will probably be dead before they get to hit and run.

The only time I ever use VRTs is on a commander, just incase he gets into combat and you don't want him to be there.

I 2nd the points on CIBs. I think they have some really good potential, the only issue comes down to personal preference if you want WYSIWYG units or not. You may have to find some cheaper alternatives through 2nd party companies to get enough cheap CIBs to field =P

CIBs dominate against Nids right now.. s7 vs. t6 mostly and most MCs for Nids have 3+ saves.. CIBs let you get enough wounds in to be very effective against them with a higher ROF game. Plasma rifles may not do as many wounds against MCs but with ap2, they can negate saves (only issue with Nids is the availability of cover)

I've been doing tests with a VRT Commander joined to a Rail/Plasma Broadside team - the one from the Ret. Cadre. It's a lot of fairly mobile, tough AP2

 raverrn wrote:
I've been doing tests with a VRT Commander joined to a Rail/Plasma Broadside team - the one from the Ret. Cadre. It's a lot of fairly mobile, tough AP2

That is exactly how I run mine.

Fusion blade commander (usually)
2 HYMP, Plasma, target locks
1 HRR, plasma

I realize I am about to get a bunch of "WHY ARE YOU RUNNING HRR, YOUR SILLY, THEY BAD" responses... but consider the Dawn blade contingent I have them in.. with bs4 when they arrive.. and have the mobility and placement of being behind rear armor. being s8 and ap1 (possibly having reroll pens) you have a pretty solid platform for popping vehicles. I have found some success here.. not arguing its the best always!

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 raverrn wrote:
I've been doing tests with a VRT Commander joined to a Rail/Plasma Broadside team - the one from the Ret. Cadre. It's a lot of fairly mobile, tough AP2

That is exactly how I run mine.

Fusion blade commander (usually)
2 HYMP, Plasma, target locks
1 HRR, plasma

I realize I am about to get a bunch of "WHY ARE YOU RUNNING HRR, YOUR SILLY, THEY BAD" responses... but consider the Dawn blade contingent I have them in.. with bs4 when they arrive.. and have the mobility and placement of being behind rear armor. being s8 and ap1 (possibly having reroll pens) you have a pretty solid platform for popping vehicles. I have found some success here.. not arguing its the best always!

Exactly this. The OSC really puts a dent in the need for HYMP - really, how many S7 AP4 shots do you need? - and the FSE rerolls and Relentless both help the HRR enough that it can do good work.

I think in general, if I want a s7 platform, in our current options, I look less at broadsides and look more at ghostkeel and dual CIB crisis suits.

a crisis suit with dual CIBs is like a baby broadside.. granted less range, but you have 100x the mobility. The ghostkeel trades up to be a tanking machine.

I don't have my book and forget off hand, but is the Ghostkeel wing an auxiliary option for Dawn Blade? if it is, I definitely want to try it out. I think it could be a pretty solid way to NULL deploy most of your army and still be tanky enough and dangerous enough to fight that first turn.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

I don't have my book and forget off hand, but is the Ghostkeel wing an auxiliary option for Dawn Blade?

no, it isn't

 Pretzalcoatl wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

I don't have my book and forget off hand, but is the Ghostkeel wing an auxiliary option for Dawn Blade?

no, it isn't

=(

Ghostkeel and Riptide Wing are standalone formations. Which kinda blows but would be rather nasty if they could get DB or HCont bonuses.

Ghostkeel one however is amazing sounding, i really wanna mess with that. Long as 2 units of the 3 are within 6? inches of each other, 12" bubble of Stealth. Ohhh how i would abuse that rofl