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 Vineheart01 wrote:
if you want high bs sniper shots, take sniper drones. Theyre BS5, 48" rapid fire for dirt cheap and have stealth.

Kroot only have Troop status over them...thats it lol

Mathematically, in terms of damage output, BS4 sniper Kroot (which are likely BS5 given CF) are superior to BS5 sniper drones within 24", in addition to the fact that you can get 80 such shots in the formation, they have a non-sniper mode of fire (which greatly increases damage output against most things within 12"), can Infiltrate, and have Move Through Cover.

Incidentally, 80 BS4 sniper shots put 6 wounds on a Wraithknight (2/3 x 1/6 x 2/3) x 80

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Pretty sure the Surge can Stomp tanks to death, and they can take a D-shotgun since they'll be that close.

SJ

That's true. With the anchors I always see it played with the other cannon. Totally forgot about it. It can move 12" a turn right? That's not too bad. Being t6 your susceptible to more melee threats tho then a WK.

Alcibiades wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
if you want high bs sniper shots, take sniper drones. Theyre BS5, 48" rapid fire for dirt cheap and have stealth.

Kroot only have Troop status over them...thats it lol

Mathematically, in terms of damage output, BS4 sniper Kroot (which are likely BS5 given CF) are superior to BS5 sniper drones within 24", in addition to the fact that you can get 80 such shots in the formation, they have a non-sniper mode of fire (which greatly increases damage output against most things within 12"), can Infiltrate, and have Move Through Cover.

Incidentally, 80 BS4 sniper shots put 6 wounds on a Wraithknight (2/3 x 1/6 x 2/3) x 80

Yes, but they also cant move and use that BS4 and are paper. Sniper drones can move and shoot, have the range to not need to move and shoot to begin with, have better armor, and stealth everything instead of stealth "terrain that doesnt exist in almost every game setup"

You bring kroot, people are going to kill them immediately. Not even because of the sniper threat, but because of the easy FB or card kills. Kroot are way too limited.

Yeah i tend not to anchor the Surge. His mobility is a real asset. Killing tanks is no biggee with markerlight support. ITC nerfs do make it less so, but still impressive. Its D-Shotgun is really an unsung hero. Everyone wants to pay an extra 15 points and give it up but why? Surely the mobility shows its importance.

A Stormsurge is excellent horde control as well and doesnt even have to choose a role. It can execute both. So the Surge seems better as a FIRST TAKE than Riptides. Id take Riptides for and purpose but making them THE anti-tank solution? Iffy, am I right?

 Jancoran wrote:
Yeah i tend not to anchor the Surge. His mobility is a real asset. Killing tanks is no biggee with markerlight support. ITC nerfs do make it less so, but still impressive. Its D-Shotgun is really an unsung hero. Everyone wants to pay an extra 15 points and give it up but why? Surely the mobility shows its importance.

A Stormsurge is excellent horde control as well and doesnt even have to choose a role. It can execute both. So the Surge seems better as a FIRST TAKE than Riptides. Id take Riptides for and purpose but making them THE anti-tank solution? Iffy, am I right?

I think the general thinking for taking the 15 point upgrade is as i said before. Your anchor ability. The D-Shotty is less effective at range and thus if your dropping anchors in the backfield people want to have the range and ability to throw down large pie plates. It ultimately comes down to your play style on this one. I am getting my first stormsurge soon! I am probably going to equip with the D-Shotty myself as my list is constantly hoppping around the map anyway!

Since the ghostkeel have come out.. i have used only 1 riptide, and that has been the requirement for my Retaliation Cadre.. and honestly, if I didn't have to bring it, idk if i would. (not saying they are bad), but so far, I haven't had a ghostkeel not make up his points, whether it be from tanking an army's fire a turn, or wiping out light AV or troops.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wanted to also report, I had huge success with the Ghostkeel wing last night. We played with a ton of 5+ cover terrain so the stealth bubbles were actually very effective.

Something that also came up that never has in my previous games, was night fighting. Which gives stealth, which means the GKW gives shrouded to your troops instead, this was really good for me, giving most of my troops 2+ cover first turn.

Still running them with CIR and Fusion most of the time, seems to be a nice versatile combination.

I think the main problem with the D shotgun, is the range is so limited.

It's not an actual gun, its a 21" buffer zone. anything that cares for it will just stay out of it's reach. swarms will just move along without a care (at least from that gun), and things that can resist the D will just come maul your face anyway (wolfstar, knights, etc.)

You should never manage to pull off a meaningful D shot with the surge.

with the stormsurge, would you consider it irredeemably TFG-ish to use the Large Blasts in the D-range?

also, I had a rather comical game with the 'sarge: against a swarmlord. Paroxysm to BS 0, then markerlights to BS5, dual D-missiles to kill it. Great fun having a Mark'o with 10 markerlights.

Also, I played the 'sarge as having essentially two 'firing modes' Firing 2 weapons at a single target or each weapon at a different target (minus those fired in EWO or already expended destroyer missiles). How do you folks use it outside ITC?

Funnily enough, my opponent didn't have a problem with that. The problem he had was the Culexus, even after my Mark'o rolled a 1 when they got too close.

 carldooley wrote:
with the stormsurge, would you consider it irredeemably TFG-ish to use the Large Blasts in the D-range?

Say what? Do you mean use the pulse driver at around ~10" ? or do you mean use the large blast profile of the pulse blastcannon (which you can't do at D range '20-30" requirement).

 carldooley wrote:

Funnily enough, my opponent didn't have a problem with that. The problem he had was the Culexus, even after my Mark'o rolled a 1 when they got too close.

Just curious, how did the culexus work out for you? do you normally run one with your tau?

 Grizzyzz wrote:
Say what? Do you mean use the pulse driver at around ~10" ? or do you mean use the large blast profile of the pulse blastcannon (which you can't do at D range '20-30" requirement).

d'oh. I'll keep that in mind in the future. It would be nice to be able to use it, but it isn't game breaking. (I did equip the Pulse Driver) - which allowed me to ID a trio of Chaos Lords. (4 player game, 1500 pts a side, 2 tau players vs KDM & Nids. I'm fairly certain they had about 200 points on us.

 Grizzyzz wrote:
Just curious, how did the culexus work out for you? do you normally run one with your tau?

it was the first time that I actually did so. My opponent was kind of funny. He didn't care about my stormsurge, but was dropping WTFs every time I did something with the Culexus. The Culexus is frankly worth its weight in gold. In meta, it covers so many 'what ifs' that there is no reason not to take one, especially at 140 pts (another sticking point; 'how can a 140 pt model shut down a 260(?) pt Swarmlord? and strike faster, and ID it?' Frankly, I think I'll only take it if someone tries for Invisibility, anything else (see above) I can mitigate with markerlights. This weekend, if I do bring one, I may bring the entire detachment (all 4 assassins) instead of just one.

**edit** another sticking point was the Animus Speculum. Why can I shoot at his gargoyles then assault his swarmlord? I shoot in the psychic phase, which btw allows me to shoot out of combat as well.

 carldooley wrote:

The Culexus is frankly worth its weight in gold. In meta, it covers so many 'what ifs' that there is no reason not to take one, especially at 140 pts (another sticking point; 'how can a 140 pt model shut down a 260(?) pt Swarmlord? and strike faster, and ID it?'

Is the culexus good at CC, i haven't used one ever (only the vindicare), and what i remember was its main worth was its soaking of psychic dice?

 carldooley wrote:

**edit** another sticking point was the Animus Speculum. Why can I shoot at his gargoyles then assault his swarmlord? I shoot in the psychic phase, which btw allows me to shoot out of combat as well.

This would fall into psychic witchfires in general. You can witchfire any unit in range, and then make your normal shooting attacks/assaults. The only thing that could prevent this when it comes to the culexus is if it says under the weapons special rules, that it would act as its shooting phase attack.. and since the culexus is restricted to only firing one weapon, i think then it would have to charge whatever you shot at with the weapon... <- I don't know the exact weapon rules.. this is my "what if" interpretations.

Culexus. same statline as the other assassins. 8 8 4 4 3 7 4 10 -
attacks ignore armor saves, CC attacks that roll a 6 ID, CC attacks against psykers ID. when an enemy attacks it, their attacks are resolved at BS\WS 1. 4++, No Escape (-2 to LoS)

the thing is a monster in CC.Having it as a counter-assault unit is broken as hell. (even if you have to make multiple One Eye Open checks)

 Grizzyzz wrote:
This would fall into psychic witchfires in general. You can witchfire any unit in range, and then make your normal shooting attacks/assaults. The only thing that could prevent this when it comes to the culexus is if it says under the weapons special rules, that it would act as its shooting phase attack.. and since the culexus is restricted to only firing one weapon, i think then it would have to charge whatever you shot at with the weapon... <- I don't know the exact weapon rules.. this is my "what if" interpretations.

grenades

 carldooley wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:
This would fall into psychic witchfires in general. You can witchfire any unit in range, and then make your normal shooting attacks/assaults. The only thing that could prevent this when it comes to the culexus is if it says under the weapons special rules, that it would act as its shooting phase attack.. and since the culexus is restricted to only firing one weapon, i think then it would have to charge whatever you shot at with the weapon... <- I don't know the exact weapon rules.. this is my "what if" interpretations.

grenades

So to fire a grenade in the shooting phase i believe still follows the same restriction of "only allowed to fire one weapon", your choosing to fire the grenade over your other weapons. So if the culexus gun says "counts as firing in the shooting phase" you would then not be able to throw a grenade..

to be super clear... does the culexus gun say it is a seperate shooting attack in the psychic phase, or a counts as shooting phase attack?

Mont'ka has the most recent printing of the rules. P. 67, first sentence, 'An animus speculum is a ranged weapon that is fired in the Psychic Phase instead of the Shooting phase.'

Second sentence, 'Firing the animus speculum does not prevent the Culexus Assassin from Running or shooting another weapon at the same or a different target in the Shooting Phase.'

And the rest, 'The Animus Speculum can fire snap shots but cannot be used to make overwatch attacks.'

The only other weapon that it can fire are its Psy shock grenades, unless it is manning a weapon like a quadgun or battlement mounted weapon.

 carldooley wrote:

Second sentence, 'Firing the animus speculum does not prevent the Culexus Assassin from Running or shooting another weapon at the same or a different target in the Shooting Phase.'

yep then your good to go!

Awesome!

22" threat range (move 12" with 10" range gun) with double D shots is a pretty wide threat range. It wont hit anything meaningful turn1 unless you deployed last and stole init or your opponent put his units you want to hit with the D right infront of the surge...which would be dumb as hell.

Turn2 onward, thats pretty unlikely that the surge cant reach something after sitting in the middle of the table a turn.

D shotty also enables skyfire potential, since if you take the pulse driver its ONLY a blast, meaning you cant use skyfire unless theres a skimmer or you want to not use the blast for a turn...not worth it. Show me a flier that dodged a 44" bubble (well, wider considering the giant base size) in the middle of the board and still did something meaningful to the objective lol.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
22" threat range (move 12" with 10" range gun) with double D shots is a pretty wide threat range. It wont hit anything meaningful turn1 unless you deployed last and stole init or your opponent put his units you want to hit with the D right infront of the surge...which would be dumb as hell.

Turn2 onward, thats pretty unlikely that the surge cant reach something after sitting in the middle of the table a turn.

D shotty also enables skyfire potential, since if you take the pulse driver its ONLY a blast, meaning you cant use skyfire unless theres a skimmer or you want to not use the blast for a turn...not worth it. Show me a flier that dodged a 44" bubble (well, wider considering the giant base size) in the middle of the board and still did something meaningful to the objective lol.

Yeah. not bad at all.. the more i think about it the more I think the pulse blastcannon has a ton more utility. If your facing a ton of MSU or hordes move up a bit, drop anchors so you can just throw 8d6 dice and a bunch of blasts... if your target is throwing knights at you, just charge up with the close range.

Neato!

Yeah the StormSurge D-shotgun is a win. I'm going to keep using it. The surge isn't as tough as it looks, but its just tough enough to make the enemy pay for that major expenditure before it dies. In my games I have only dropped the anchors twice. Once in my very first game (in which I learned it may not be the best idea to do so) and then one single round at the top table this weekend where I tried it once just because it was hammer and anvil deployment. other than that, I have not found the anchors to be as good as taking advantage of its mobility.

So go go gadget Surge.

I also think that since the obvious answer to Tau is not to try and outshoot them but to GET THERE, the D-Shotgun range is nearly a non-factor. The enemy army that wishes to win isn't standing back and getting in a shooting match with me. they are getting on top of me and fast.

That is why why "suboptimal" list which some too kthe time to insult, is actually quite good. it takes advantage of this knowledge and is built for up close and personal action. There are many ways to skin the cat, but it certainly stands to reason that if you know what an enemy must do to defeat you, you can do something about it if you plan accordingly.

So Skyhammers and all that are not a problem as long as you split the Stormsurge wide (about 36 inches away does the trick if you want to be safe).

 Jancoran wrote:
Yeah the StormSurge D-shotgun is a win. I'm going to keep using it. The surge isn't as tough as it looks, but its just tough enough to make the enemy pay for that major expenditure before it dies. In my games I have only dropped the anchors twice. Once in my very first game (in which I learned it may not be the best idea to do so) and then one single round at the top table this weekend where I tried it once just because it was hammer and anvil deployment. other than that, I have not found the anchors to be as good as taking advantage of its mobility.

I recently played one of the new Demon formations.

2 Heralds on chariots
Some chaos lord idk
80 dogs
2x3 skull cannons.

12" scout and 12" move put his entire army on me turn 1.. I had to castle in a corner to not deal with BOTH squads of skull cannons (they can join for a apoc s8 ap3 ignore cover blast @bs5). Had most of my army in reserve so they all came in behind and cleaned up. Unfortunately the new demon corruption nonsense with objectives killed me. (they hold it even after they leave until i go hold the objective). So he won 16-9 in Deadlock maelstrom. But In the end he only had his Lord and 10 dogs left.. I had about 1000 points still lol, was kind of a shame how the cards worked out.

Anyway.. point is.. i think a stormsurge in this game would have been awesome.. drop anchors and just blast away until i got charged inevitably. And then stomps!

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Yeah the StormSurge D-shotgun is a win. I'm going to keep using it. The surge isn't as tough as it looks, but its just tough enough to make the enemy pay for that major expenditure before it dies. In my games I have only dropped the anchors twice. Once in my very first game (in which I learned it may not be the best idea to do so) and then one single round at the top table this weekend where I tried it once just because it was hammer and anvil deployment. other than that, I have not found the anchors to be as good as taking advantage of its mobility.

I recently played one of the new Demon formations.

2 Heralds on chariots
Some chaos lord idk
80 dogs
2x3 skull cannons.

12" scout and 12" move put his entire army on me turn 1.. I had to castle in a corner to not deal with BOTH squads of skull cannons (they can join for a apoc s8 ap3 ignore cover blast @bs5). Had most of my army in reserve so they all came in behind and cleaned up. Unfortunately the new demon corruption nonsense with objectives killed me. (they hold it even after they leave until i go hold the objective). So he won 16-9 in Deadlock maelstrom. But In the end he only had his Lord and 10 dogs left.. I had about 1000 points still lol, was kind of a shame how the cards worked out.

Anyway.. point is.. i think a stormsurge in this game would have been awesome.. drop anchors and just blast away until i got charged inevitably. And then stomps!

well... That's not a terrible idea on paper as long as the markerlight support is there but allow me to give you some think food there.

By working from one corner, you force no choices. In objective missuions you are helping to insure you cant break out to score the objectives you need. For this reason a Stormsurge to the left or right about 36 inches away forces the enemy to decide. It also makes whatever force they send after either corner less impressive. And with the Stormsurge, it can support your main cluster from pretty far away. So you effectively get all the shooting you already wanted, can still drop anchors if he chooses not to go after your stormsurge at all and if he does come after your Surge, the Cluster can handle the threat easier and the Stormsurge can also. So this is a win all the way around.

So if you use a Surge, use it to force decisions and split the enemy efforts. the enemy being unable to support one another (while you, on the other hand, can) is key.

Yeah totally agree here! The list I brought unfortunately did not have anything that could survive so much melee for long.

Retaliation Cadre
Drone network
Firestream
Ghostkeel Wing.

We used NOVA rules for tageting blasts, so I castled the ghost drones and piranha in a ruin with the ghost preventing the apocalypse blasts. Shot all the dogs I could . Screen my flank with drones and held ground. Took 3 turns to kill all the Ghostkeel and really move on.

Meanwhile his whole backfield was open so I dropped in and started ripping him apart.

If it wasn't deadlock I think the score would have been more even or possibly in my favor. Just 11 cards uncontested by me was a huge advantage.

I could have opted for no reserves... But would not have been able to stop the apocalypse blasts which would have just wiped out all my suits.

In the end. Even though it was a loss, it was a great game.

The ability to reach across the board and touch most corner's, I've always felt is crucial. It is the lone scarab squad or hiding jetbike which is a pain.

The D cannon...personally I feel the drivers, missiles and dancing shoes are plenty, combined with the other volumes of fire Tau can dish out. But hey, my 2 cents.

im actually shooting myself in the foot for hard-fixing my pulse driver cannon. Its magnetized onto the stormsurge but i glued all the pieces on it, and for some dumb reason they only give you 1 of the lower half of the main gun.

And that bit is a pain in the ASS to find on ebay. Geez. Not that i technically need it since wysiwyg isnt really enforced around here, but still..fml lol

Quick question guys but....

How effective would an 1500pt of 2 Riptide Wings (7 Suits) be?

I have a friend who is a huge Gundam fan and he's quite keen on the idea of fielding an army of 7 mechas aka Riptides, But how effective would such a list be? I've done a rough list and you could have 3 with FNP, a few small upgrades and 2 suit that would have to pair up. Granted the Riptides have the strategic flexibility of the nova reactor plus that devastating double fire move, but without support and with only 7 units is such an army viable?

Or on the other hand is it too overpowered, where would such a list sit on the friendly to cheese meter?

Riptides, even in the Riptide Wing, actually aren't all that effective at shooting, as compared to many other Tau options. Consider 3 Broadsides vs 1 Riptide, for instance. They're just highly mobile and hard as hell to kill while still providing good fire support.

An all-Riptide army would probably stomp certain lists, but you may not have the firepower to push most opponents off objectives or enough units to effectively contest said objectives. You'd definitely be in trouble against melee deathstars. They'll lock you in combat and eat your face with thunder hammers and frost axes and whatnot. They may eat slowly, but they really only have to engage 3 units to ensure a stalemate, at worst. That is, you basically have to kill everything before it gets to you on the second turn. That's possible but not super likely.

Drop a Riptide for a cullexus assassin.. I think that could be pretty devastating. There will be obvious counters. But they could be mitigated with a little support.

Heck.

1 wing of 5
Drone net of markers
Cullexus

I've actually thought of doing exactly that, except at 1850. For better or for worse, your games would be very short!

 Grizzyzz wrote:
Drop a Riptide for a cullexus assassin.. I think that could be pretty devastating. There will be obvious counters. But they could be mitigated with a little support.

Heck.

1 wing of 5
Drone net of markers
Cullexus

Depending on points, one larger squad of gun drones to pump out some serious RoF? I think 3 burst with VT's, 2 ions, all with EWO & Fusion (SMS are good but you are limited on bodies to field tools - gun drones could spam (lower quality) str5?

I would think the Blastcannon on the Stormsurge would be a risky move. Getting close enough to get the big D puts you in serious risk if you don't roll a 6 against that Knight that you are now in easy charge range of...

I like the Driver cannon myself, especially since my preferred way of running the Stormsurge is to sit in the backfield and dig his heels in.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I would think the Blastcannon on the Stormsurge would be a risky move. Getting close enough to get the big D puts you in serious risk if you don't roll a 6 against that Knight that you are now in easy charge range of...

I like the Driver cannon myself, especially since my preferred way of running the Stormsurge is to sit in the backfield and dig his heels in.

Define "serious risk". I am confident that the reason the stormsurge is within 10" of an enemy is because quite soon the closest enemy will be 20 inches away.

 Jancoran wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I would think the Blastcannon on the Stormsurge would be a risky move. Getting close enough to get the big D puts you in serious risk if you don't roll a 6 against that Knight that you are now in easy charge range of...

I like the Driver cannon myself, especially since my preferred way of running the Stormsurge is to sit in the backfield and dig his heels in.

Define "serious risk". I am confident that the reason the stormsurge is within 10" of an enemy is because quite soon the closest enemy will be 20 inches away.

Yeah, if you don't roll ones to hit or on the D table. Depending on what you're shooting at, that could be catastrophic. Of course, if you had units in front of the Stormsurge to screen it...

My point is, I feel like the Stormsurge really isn't tough enough to risk putting it in harm's way, especially if you don't have a Shield Generator on it (which is why I always do). I prefer to keep units like that, which are usually a big bulls-eye for the opponent, safely behind the lines, preferably screened with Firewarriors or Kroot to prevent naughty deepstrikers.