Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 BoomWolf wrote:
How many wounds it has?

Riptides with IA seems like the go-to choice here due to S7AP2 shots, but perhaps plasma crisis are a better fit. they die more easily, but get far more shots of at the same pricerange, that wound on the same 6 and same AP2.

Snipers also wound on 6s, and being sniper a wound of 6 is AP2, making sniper drones and sniper kroot an interesting prospect.

s6 and s7 both wound T9 on 6s. so the HBC is better in this sense then the Ion.. because 6s will rend anyway and you have more shots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So planning out some lists for NOVA and at 1850 I thought of this and on paper seems pretty good, but in practice not sure.

CAD -
mark'o
3x 3 Crisis dual plasma
Stormsurge

Drone net -
4x4 marker drones

Riptide Wing -
3x 1 Riptides, HBC, SMS, VT


What do you guys think?

HBC only rend if you got NOVA active. not otherwise.

But 10 wounds at T9 FnP4...
So, practically, you need to land 20 wounds on average.
That means 20 To-Wound of 6 with AP2 attacks. therefor 120 hits unless you reroll wounds, and then you need 67 hits.


Yea, that's alot.
HBC riptide wing will do decent work, but I fail to see anything else that gets anywhere near it in reasonable time.

You might consider an Allied Advance Cadre as part of a DBC. BS4, wound-rerolling sniper Kroot are pretty nasty to big things. HBC tides aren't an awful option, I guess, but they're pretty inefficient for killing T9 things. I'd rather use Kroot and/or Sniper Drones combined with some D missiles.

Griz,

I like your list. It's pretty similar to mine but I do FNP on the Riptides instead of VT. Get enough markerlights and you'll be fine in the AA department.

I'm also tweaking around with a version of a list that includes 2 stormsurges and a few less drones. It actually has about the same markerlight output, but only at 1 unit of course. And while the markerlights don't have interceptor, I'm ok with that.

It's basically the list that Frankie on Frontlinegaming has been using.

I've been modelling a tyranid fighter Tau army with an eye towards monster hunting. I have a few different versions of the idea, all of which are built around the ranged support cadre and Railside spam. The marker cost for the 88s is so cheap that i'm trying to think of these railsides as being mobile, After moving it takes 6 markers to bring these 3 squads back to BS5 twinlinked. Also, I'm trying to take any even more birds' eye view of the table and trying to look at it from the perspective that the monsters are the main soldiers and the role of infantry has become one of helping these large war machines win the day. That said, it stands to reason that all of the races would strive to create Task Forces of specialized soldiers for the sole purpose of eliminating these lords of war. I try to envision that these lists are an example of one of many tau titan-hunting teams. I like to think of the broadsides as equivilant to a team of firewarriors in our "upview" of battlefields where 3-5 story creatures run rampant. For its' size class, like the pulse rifle, the HRR out-ranges everyone else and has the potential to hurt anything I point it at.

List 1

Ranged Support Cadre - 871pts
x7 finders
x7 finders
x7 finders
x3 railsides w/ sms, ewos, shas'ui (warlord)
x3 railsides w/ sms, ewos
x3 railsides w/ sms, ewos

Firebase Cadre - 365
Railside w/ sms, ewos
Railside w/ sms, ewos
Iontide w/ fusion, ewos, stims


Riptide Wing - 600
Burstide w/ tracker
Burstide w/ tracker
Burstide w/ tracker

Total - 1846

So in this list the firebase cadre has monster or tank hunter, so more railsides could be moved from ranged cadre to there if desired. I have the ranged cad filled for the ease of markerlighting. This list also has 4 monsters itself to give it some staying power. The burstide wing should bring down flyers for me easy. As much as I like this list and believe that I could play it very competitively, I don't feel like it fully captures the "theme" that I'm going for. I'm trying to represent a small battlegroup of railsides tasked with bringing down the largest of tyranid monsters (I really intend it for all LOWs), so I really want to go with an alpha stike ability. I want to cause crippling damage as quickly as possible to the largest thing(s) on the field, so this time I'll use the Dawnblade Detachment, for that doom-esque ability.


List 2 Farsight Enclaves Dawnblade Detachment (all soldiers bonded except 'O)

Retaliation Cadre - 779
'O w/ missile, cib, jammer, talisman, codex (192)
XV8 w/ missile, burst (48)
XV8 w/ missile, burst (48)
XV8 w/ missile, burst (48)
Burstide w/ sms, tracker, ewos (206)
x3 railsides w/ sms, ewos, x3 seekers (237)


Ranged Support Cadre - 1071
x10 finders (120)
x10 finders (120)
x10 finders (120)
x3 railsides w/ sms, ewos, x3 seekers (237)
x3 railsides w/ sms, ewos, x3 seekers (237)
x3 railsides w/ sms, ewos, x3 seekers (237)

Total - 1850

Now to me, THIS feels like an alpha strike list. This time I've added a fourth 88 squad from the ret cad, and this one is relentless. That means that after moving it will only need the 2 markerlights to bring it to bs5 TL, just like the other three squads. I am not afraid to keep up a moving fusillade with these guys. Their alpha strike, considering first turn and markers are in range, should all be fired at bs5 twin linked (5ml stationary, 8ml moving) with ignore cover (5ml for all). 13 total lights needed for the 88s all to fire at peak efficiency if moving, 10 otherwise. 11-12 hits. Now we add in the seekers as our second weapon that turn, for another 12 STR8 hits at 2+. Now we add in our dawnblade ability and everything gets to reroll to wound (or pen). This should definitely cause some major damage, even to the toughest of targets. The rest is just the bare min to fill requirements and I think I've managed to somewhat fill gaps with those units. The burstide is obvious AA, while the crisis suits play anti-horde, backed up by abundant (12) sms if need be.

I do feel that the first list has more survivability and perhaps adaptability. However, I feel the second is truer to the original intent, and stand a better chance of bringing down those tough targets quickly.

 luke1705 wrote:
Griz,

I like your list. It's pretty similar to mine but I do FNP on the Riptides instead of VT. Get enough markerlights and you'll be fine in the AA department.

I'm also tweaking around with a version of a list that includes 2 stormsurges and a few less drones. It actually has about the same markerlight output, but only at 1 unit of course. And while the markerlights don't have interceptor, I'm ok with that.

It's basically the list that Frankie on Frontlinegaming has been using.

Nice! Yeah the FNP will definitely add to their survivability that is a for sure thing. I was actually thinking about dropping the VT and figuring out a way to get a drone per riptide.

normally I am completely against the idea of a potential morale check, but in the current heavy grav meta. ITC rules that tie goes to the defender.. so as long as you have a riptide w/ a single drone grav is wounding you on 4+. That is a HUGE change in survivability there.

I am also debating whether or not to run Ion or HBC. Right now I am forfeiting interceptor but I think the HBC has more consistent offense. IDK


Automatically Appended Next Post:
was thinking about this today... someone tell me I am wrong..

Hunter Cadre "units may run and then shoot in the shooting phase if within 12" of a commander or Fireblade"

If a unit does not move in the movement phase.. and then runs and shoots as per the hunter cadre benefit... do they count as moving for heavy weapons ????

It's a good thought - however if the unit has a grav amp, the exchange is almost even (like within 2% chance of taking a wound). You gain durability on the initial volley but once the shield drone dies, you're just sitting on your 5+ invuln.

With a normal riptide, you have an essential re-rollable 5+ invuln, so although you take more wounds initially, you also save more. You're basically running into the law of diminishing returns - a re-rollable 2+ isn't THAT much better than a normal 2+, as compared to a re-rollable 4+. The former has an increase of effectiveness at roughly 14 percent, whereas the latter is 25% more effective. So you're basically just giving their grav amps a chance to earn their money.

I would rather take the inherent durability (and after the first round, it's not even close how much better that is since the drone will likely be dead and you still have your FNP)

HBC definitely has much more consistent offense

As per sprinting pathfinders with markerlights...yeah they can sit still in the movement phase, sprint and then shoot at full ballistic skill. Because reasons. I guess we're Eldar now

Yep. I was also looking at 9 railsides in a hunter cad to get that movable broadside shenanigans. It also applies to our tanks effectively giving us tanks that move 12" and shoot again.

spacelord321 wrote:
Yep. I was also looking at 9 railsides in a hunter cad to get that movable broadside shenanigans. It also applies to our tanks effectively giving us tanks that move 12" and shoot again.

Yeah I was coming up with some fun lists... I ran at 1000 points a Cad with Fire warrior spam and the ghostkeel wing.. it was actually super effective.

So I was looking at ways to expand this into 1850 points.

Looking at running Mark'o with puretide chip and sticking him with some broadsides... basically run and shoot if need be for some extra movement.

Y'know, I've been thinking about how everyone says the Riptide's shielded missile drones are bad because if they die the Riptide takes a morale check. I have a simple solution that most have probably thought of already, and that is to PUT THE DRONES BEHIND THE RIPTIDE! Seriously, now the enemy has to kill the Riptide. Only weakness of that is if something gets behind you, they can hit the drones, plus Precision Shots are a thing. If something tries to drop behind you, that is why you have EWO. And, as someone mentioned earlier in this thread they make Grav less effective since it wounds on 4+ instead of 2+. I was thinking of taking the drones with my Riptide in a list that also has a drone net (so the missile pods are BS3!).

Having them behind you is fine, but you're inviting some nasty combos on LD nerfing and you're also mitigating some of the Drones reason for even being there. You pay full price for the Drone whether you get its shielding or not. So i mean... that's not an inconsiderable issue.

As you point out, if the enemy does get behind you (an extraordinary measure but not unforseeable) Then yeah... My Haemonculous coven would love to outflank, drop your ld, kill a drone and see you flee. Good times.

And we never know what we will face in a tournament so i don't know. the first time i lost a Riptide to LD was the last time I took a Drone and I suppose in many matchups the solution works absolutely fine.

 Jancoran wrote:
Having them behind you is fine, but you're inviting some nasty combos on LD nerfing and you're also mitigating some of the Drones reason for even being there. You pay full price for the Drone whether you get its shielding or not. So i mean... that's not an inconsiderable issue.

As you point out, if the enemy does get behind you (an extraordinary measure but not unforseeable) Then yeah... My Haemonculous coven would love to outflank, drop your ld, kill a drone and see you flee. Good times.

And we never know what we will face in a tournament so i don't know. the first time i lost a Riptide to LD was the last time I took a Drone and I suppose in many matchups the solution works absolutely fine.

I'm not sure missing out on the shielding is such a huge issue. A Riptide has a 5++ anyway (that can be increased to 3++), so having a shielded drone is not a huge thing. Mostly I would take them for the missile pods, and then only if they have the BS3 from the Drone Net. The extra protection from Grav is the only thing that makes them worth their points in that case, as I just thought about how you can get cheaper Missile pods elsewhere (for example on Crisis suits). Still, I have the models, so I might like to try them in a casual game and see what happens.

Also, the leadership issue. Riptides have LD 9, so that comes to a 1/6 chance to run away. Seems pretty safe to me. When it (the 1 in 6) happens it probably kinda sucks to have over 200 points just run off the board. I guess the question is whether the risk is worth the benefits of the extra firepower.

The main problem is just what Jancoran pointed out - sure you could put them behind you, but then you miss out on the increased invulnerable save and the extra wound.

Sure you could put it in front of you, but then you're subject to a leadership check when it inevitably dies. It's not awful, and you should definitely pay the points for BKR in that case, but I don't think that's worth the points for what you get. Just grab stims for like 10 more points and call it a day

my main issue with shielded missile drones is the cost. 25pts for a BS2 missilepod that while yes its T6, it still goes away to bolters like all our drones do. Nobody in their right mind is going to shoot the big guns at a riptide or any suit with a drone in front, and unlike the other drones the Shielded Missile Drone is expensive as gak for a throwaway model.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
my main issue with shielded missile drones is the cost. 25pts for a BS2 missilepod that while yes its T6, it still goes away to bolters like all our drones do. Nobody in their right mind is going to shoot the big guns at a riptide or any suit with a drone in front, and unlike the other drones the Shielded Missile Drone is expensive as gak for a throwaway model.

T6 drone right?

The drones are about filling out units. Field 1, 2 or 3 riptides. But then, maybe add drones. But the tricky thing is there are soo many other more useful (/mandatory) upgrades to get first.

The only use I see for SMD is anti gravity gun but 25 points can get 2 regular drones or get you most of the way to a FNP save

luke1705 wrote:The main problem is just what Jancoran pointed out - sure you could put them behind you, but then you miss out on the increased invulnerable save and the extra wound.

Sure you could put it in front of you, but then you're subject to a leadership check when it inevitably dies. It's not awful, and you should definitely pay the points for BKR in that case, but I don't think that's worth the points for what you get. Just grab stims for like 10 more points and call it a day

I don't think you need BKR if you only have one Riptide and its two drones, as it is impossible to be below 25% of the unit. However, if you were running multiple Riptides it would be useful.

Vineheart01 wrote:my main issue with shielded missile drones is the cost. 25pts for a BS2 missilepod that while yes its T6, it still goes away to bolters like all our drones do. Nobody in their right mind is going to shoot the big guns at a riptide or any suit with a drone in front, and unlike the other drones the Shielded Missile Drone is expensive as gak for a throwaway model.

It would take quite a few bolters to reliably kill the drones in this case since they need 6's. These are bolters that could otherwise be shooting up your squishy regular infantry or softening up your Crisis suits and regular drone squadrons. Regular shield drones are definitely a waste since they are only T4 and are much easier to kill with bolters.

Oldmike wrote:The only use I see for SMD is anti gravity gun but 25 points can get 2 regular drones or get you most of the way to a FNP save

You can't take regular drones with a Riptide. Of course if you mean in another unit, I see your point.

I don't mean to seem contrary, I'm kind of playing Devil's Advocate and trying to find all the reasons for and against SMDs. Kind of like Jancoran was talking about a few pages ago with heavy weapon pathfinders; using something that internet "wisdom" says doesn't work well and seeing if in fact it can be useful.

I have used the Shielded Missile drones successfully often, but I believe it only really shines on the HBC (who I loved when the Pilot Array was available). Often I found myself only wanting to pick up 2 markerlights for this guy for +2 BS anyway, due to the high AP of the Cannon and SMS. I would miss out on the occasional rend, but still drown 3+ armor units with wounds anyway. The Str/AP of the Shielded Missile Drones meshes well with the HBC, and helps add vehicle stopping power to the rending Nova Cannon. With a +2 BS they did good work. I concur that leaving them BEHIND the Riptide was very important. The added fire power was more than enough to justify the expense (2 drones for less then a dual Missile Pod Crisis Suit).
One of the things this was great at Tournaments was going against players who know enough about Tau to see the Leadership weakness of the Drones. More than once opponents were tempted to try a risky deepstrike or advance one or two mobile units out of advantageous board locations to try to capitalize and make the Riptide run. Often the gambit failed with decent Riptide placement, or was successful in killing the drone only to see the Riptide pass his Ld test (this is even less of a concern if you use an Ethereal, particularly Aun'Va). Both results left them out of position and often was a critical error. I was honestly surprised when this happened during events with quality opponents who should not have (and normally would never have) outsmarted themselves.
One further note on the use of these drones in a Riptide Wing: while the whole unit does not benefit from the +1 BS (just Riptides), they do from Hailfire.

Kind of tangent to the riptide ... If you take an Ethereal Council do you have the option of subbing out for Aun'Va ?

Additionally, can Aun'Va embark on vehicles?

Yes on both accounts.

Though, I've never understood the purpose of the ethereal council. just way too many VPs in that unit that its begging to be killed even more than usual.

Unfortunately the Devilfish cannot carry bulky units.

BoomWolf wrote:Yes on both accounts.

Though, I've never understood the purpose of the ethereal council. just way too many VPs in that unit that its begging to be killed even more than usual.

I was making a fluffy fun footslogging list paired up with the ghostkeel wing. So the council would be fun if i stuck them in a devilfish that gets 2+ jink saves and they can essentially buff the crap out of my walking gunline.

Plainshow wrote:Unfortunately the Devilfish cannot carry bulky units.

BOO


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok so came up with another NOVA list @1850... I actually really like this one.

Rip Wing:
- Riptide, HBCannon, SMS, Stim
- Riptide, HBCannon, SMS, Stim
- Riptide, HBCannon, SMS, Stim

Piranha Firestream:
- Piranha, 2 seeker, sensor spine *spotter
- Piranha, 2 seeker, sensor spine
- Piranha, 2 seeker, sensor spine
- x2 Piranha, 2 seeker, sensor spine

CAD or Hunter Cadre ** i currently have 69 points left and could drop 1 piranha for a total of 130 points.. as is i am lacking 1 elite which i could fit with that easy.
- Commander, Iridium, Drone Cont, Target lock, 2 misslepod, 2 marker drone
- x5 Fire warriors
- x5 Fire warriors
- x5 Fire warriors
- x6 marker drones
- Storm surge, Pulse Blaster (D-shotty), Air burst, EWO, Shield


So guys what do you think? Part of me wants to use the HC just to get the Dawn Blade rules...

I am thinking of dropping a piranha for 1 ghostkeel.. mainly because at NOVA anything under a blast is a target.. so I can use the Ghostkeel to stop any turn 1 alpha strike huge blasts on my piranha or whatever.
OR
Dropping the drone squad.. using a 4 man pathfinder team to help stop infiltrators some, and bringing a 2 man missile pod crisis team with marker drones *would also require me to drop a piranha*, but adds some additional utility on the board.

Thoughts?

 Grizzyzz wrote:
Kind of tangent to the riptide ... If you take an Ethereal Council do you have the option of subbing out for Aun'Va ?

Additionally, can Aun'Va embark on vehicles?

Aun'Va cannot embark on a Devilfish.

I saw someone do the maths on Stims for Riptides, apparently while it's not a bad buy, mathematically, it's really not a must buy for tides at all.

I'd run your main as a CAD, if you're just after the stormsurge and Drone Commander, i'd probably switch the firewarriors out for two crisis suits with whatever and make it an FSE CAD. Something like a Skyray would fill out the list nicely if you have the model.

Made my first of 3 ghostkeels last night, gah, I really dislike the assembly part of the hobby! Painting I don't mind, but gluing a large model together can suck it! At least after the 1st one, the other two should be much more straightforward.

Going to try them in the OSC and Ghostkeel Wing to see which is the better fit, I already own the stealthsuits, so may as well try both variants. On paper, the OSC obviously is much more offensive and has gotten the fanfare as a powerful formation. The stealth buff of the wing though and no required stealth suits has something going for it in a pure Tau army imo.

Optimized Stealth Cadre is really fantastic, and yeah those models were fun to put together. That particular model is one of the neatest ones I have ever done. it's more work but they really are fantastic as a model goes.

I'm looking forward to getting my other ghostkeel put together. I kind of stopped aftr the first one because it was a fair amount of work and I hate that side of the hobby in general so i had to take a break. But the model is really cool.

 Bryan01 wrote:
I saw someone do the maths on Stims for Riptides, apparently while it's not a bad buy, mathematically, it's really not a must buy for tides at all.

I can definitely save points by not bringing it.. but I am fearful if I don't then i fall very weak to a large alpha strike or long range grav counter deployment (admech effective 36" range). Because of the limited model count, each riptide is a huge loss to the offense of the list.

 Bryan01 wrote:

I'd run your main as a CAD, if you're just after the stormsurge and Drone Commander, i'd probably switch the firewarriors out for two crisis suits with whatever and make it an FSE CAD. Something like a Skyray would fill out the list nicely if you have the model.

My main concern is lack of markerlights.. I am curious how it will play out. My other list I posted in the lists section of the forum was with a drone net instead of the firestream... spread markers out or delete one unit a turn.. unsure on which would be more beneficial.

 Plainshow wrote:
Unfortunately the Devilfish cannot carry bulky units.

Completely forgot about that.
Well, I don't really use Aun'va, or devilfishes...

I would have to agree that you are short on markerlights. If you go for an alpha strike and launch all 4 d-missiles on 1st turn that will take 8 markers: 2 for bs, 2 for cover, and 1 for each missile. Most likely you won't have enough to cover that. If you just launch one you've used five and won't have more than one or two left for the rest of your army. Now you still have to fire the rest of the missiles in subsequent turns. If you only fired one a round, that's four turns that everyone else has to actually aim for themselves! The very shame!

I'm becoming more and more of the opinion that stims really are indispensable for riptides. Not just for failed novas, as those are pretty slim with the formation, but I mean.....you literally get an effective 5 extra wounds for the whole formation. Now, yes, some might say "well just take another riptide for not many more points" and I can agree with that. I will probably never run it, but I think that a 5 man riptide wing with 2 2 1 squads would be pretty bonkers. So durable. The great thing about monstrous creatures is that they function at full efficiency from full wounds down to 1. So the longer it stays alive, the longer you are in great shape and your opponent is sad.

I've never had much of a problem with my Riptides dying, even with an abundance of grav around. If I have some extra points that I don't really want to spend on units, stims are great, but I do think you're better off buying that extra Riptide. That's particularly true if you can field your third Riptide in a unit for that cost. An extra BS on 3 HBC tides makes a huge difference.

While we're kind of tangentially on the subject, I'm not entirely sold on HBC Riptides. Even with nova re-rolls, it's a bit of a bummer to spend your nova charge on simply making your main weapon worthwhile. Tau don't exactly have a problem fielding a bunch of mid-strength firepower, so I'd probably prefer to get it elsewhere (Broadsides and Ghostkeels, most likely). If nothing else, you can save the stim points and just slap 3++ on your ion tide every turn. Rolling with iontides also makes Hailfire that much better since you can spam your secondary system like a maniac.