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Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





NJ

MilkmanAl wrote:
I've never had much of a problem with my Riptides dying, even with an abundance of grav around. If I have some extra points that I don't really want to spend on units, stims are great, but I do think you're better off buying that extra Riptide. That's particularly true if you can field your third Riptide in a unit for that cost. An extra BS on 3 HBC tides makes a huge difference.

While we're kind of tangentially on the subject, I'm not entirely sold on HBC Riptides. Even with nova re-rolls, it's a bit of a bummer to spend your nova charge on simply making your main weapon worthwhile. Tau don't exactly have a problem fielding a bunch of mid-strength firepower, so I'd probably prefer to get it elsewhere (Broadsides and Ghostkeels, most likely). If nothing else, you can save the stim points and just slap 3++ on your ion tide every turn. Rolling with iontides also makes Hailfire that much better since you can spam your secondary system like a maniac.


The value for HBC is that when you get that rending, they can deal with pretty much anything. The blast might scatter or they could just not have a ton of great targets. And the turn you fire twice.....24 str 6 rending shots that are inherently AP 4...makes a scatbike blush.

You're right that you can get durability in other ways with an iontide, who doesn't need to nova. In my particular list, I have stormsurges (not a typo haha) who already have pieplates for days, thus covering the benefit of the iontide. So it's more important for me to have those shots. But you're right - Tau can get str 6/7 ap 4/5 in bulk shots for literal days. Hardly something that can only come from a riptide.


The keels can be vulnerable once their holophotons are gone (not that this is a big deal unless they're also packing a ton of ignores cover). They also have a much shorter range compared to the riptide, which is the main issue that I have with them.

Broadsides are of course vulnerable to ID and have only a cover save to redeem them, plus have more prevalent leadership issues, and are way less mobile, even if you do the run and shoot shenanigans

Riptides are, to me, the complete package
   
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I can't really disagree with any of that, though I feel like the only place HBC tides excel is durability. Granted, that's a pretty big deal, considering they operate at maximum potency until they die. I don't think the HBC is a bad option, by any means, but I think I prefer ionizing things. Once I'm not poor as hell (in terms of both free time and money), I'll give the HBC some work.
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





NJ

MilkmanAl wrote:
I can't really disagree with any of that, though I feel like the only place HBC tides excel is durability. Granted, that's a pretty big deal, considering they operate at maximum potency until they die. I don't think the HBC is a bad option, by any means, but I think I prefer ionizing things. Once I'm not poor as hell (in terms of both free time and money), I'll give the HBC some work.


I don't understand what you mean by that? Are you still comparing HBC to ion? Because I think that, if anything, the HBC has less in the way of durability, or at least that it sacrifices more in the way of offense if it increases its durability via 3++ nova.
   
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Oh, sorry, I meant HBC as compared with other S7 AP4 sources.
   
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Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

Just found out I am in fact going to be at the Bay Area Open. Saweet.

Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

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Made in us
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NJ

 Jancoran wrote:
Just found out I am in fact going to be at the Bay Area Open. Saweet.



Nice! I am so on the fence....would be a nice trip but flights from the east coast...ouch!
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

I am no longer on that fence. Total is about $400 including hotel. So it should be a good time. My wifes not happy but.. I'll get her some flowers.

Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





NJ

 Jancoran wrote:
I am no longer on that fence. Total is about $400 including hotel. So it should be a good time. My wifes not happy but.. I'll get her some flowers.


I must be doing it wrong haha. That's just the flight for me. I would do $400 for everything in a heartbeat

Oh right uh...tactics....put shields on your Stormsurges kids

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/31 04:10:46


 
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

 luke1705 wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
I am no longer on that fence. Total is about $400 including hotel. So it should be a good time. My wifes not happy but.. I'll get her some flowers.


I must be doing it wrong haha. That's just the flight for me. I would do $400 for everything in a heartbeat

Oh right uh...tactics....put shields on your Stormsurges kids


Hehehe. Righto. back to Tactics it is.

Well I have two options whenb I go to this Bay Area Open. Option one: I can bring my usual unorthodox list and make it happen that way. another path to ultimate victory is to go positively for blood and institute the scorched earth philosophy of lit building.

The reality is that one relies on tactics (at which i am skilled) and the other relies on Net-Think. In other words, the general agreement of powerful units heaped in with powerful units and so on. Powerful units do impinge generally on flexibility and board presence and they rely increasingly on killing things which the ITC missions aren't really solely about. So i lean as ever on the tactical side of the coin with lots of units so i am never unprepared for anything while specializing in the extermination of nothing in particular as I am as likely to null deploy as i am to try and blow things off the board.

Kill Points will INEVITABLY be a part of the missions in some form or fashion so in a tournament like this, elite units (literally) are the least disadvantaged because the Fast attack and Heavy Support missions both spot the enemy points. So elites seem important from a theoretical list building standpoint and this is no doubt why the Riptide Wings and other such devices do appeal to people. not just because they are good but because they are not disadvantaged inherently by the missions themselves.

So we want to spend some points there. We also know that HQ's should be hearty since they are a critical element of maxing your scores at a tournament of this magnitude and if you plan to make it to the top, you have to value the Warlord.

Line Breaking is in fact a thing and an objective so that has to be a thought also. A later game, resilient and stealthy unit is preferable though not a strict necessity.

I feel that the way the ITC missions now bnefit alpha strikes to the Nth degree and that players going second are very disadvantaged at games end, that an alpha strike motif will be important. As long a they score the missions the way they are now that is...

Alrighty. so a listbuilding I will go.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/03/31 05:00:07


Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

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Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife






spacelord321 wrote:
I would have to agree that you are short on markerlights. If you go for an alpha strike and launch all 4 d-missiles on 1st turn that will take 8 markers: 2 for bs, 2 for cover, and 1 for each missile. Most likely you won't have enough to cover that. If you just launch one you've used five and won't have more than one or two left for the rest of your army. Now you still have to fire the rest of the missiles in subsequent turns. If you only fired one a round, that's four turns that everyone else has to actually aim for themselves! The very shame!


Ah, so the D upgrade is 1 markerlight and that is the only perk it gets? I will have to check that out again tonight.

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Ok after some tinkering last night, here is my finalized list that I am going to start play testing.

@1850 (ITC format)
FSE CAD:
Commander - Iridium - Onager Gauntlet (you know.. just incase) - Drone Controller - Target lock - 2 missle pods - 2 marker drones
2x Crisis Team (2) - 2 Plasma - EWO
Crisis Team (1) - 2 Flamer
StormSurge - Air burst, EWO, Shield
Marker Drones (4)
2x Tetras (2)

Piranha Firestream:
4x Piranha (1) - 2 seekers - blacksun filters

Riptide Wing:
3x Riptide (1) - HBCannon - SMS - EWO


What do you guys think?

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Olympia, WA

command and control node for the commander. Skip the weapons on him. use those points elsewhere.

Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife






 Jancoran wrote:
command and control node for the commander. Skip the weapons on him. use those points elsewhere.


yeah I could but commander wont usually ever be with a unit in this list. he is really only there for the drone controller and to tank that marker light source.

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Human Auxiliary to the Empire




By the way you guys are talking I feel like my idea is not good now. Dropping my warlord in with the rest of my army for maximum 1 turn murderization.

Should this ... Not occur? I don't know how any of the missions work anymore so if this is a thing I wish to be enlightened, please.


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Sicarioos wrote:
By the way you guys are talking I feel like my idea is not good now. Dropping my warlord in with the rest of my army for maximum 1 turn murderization.

Should this ... Not occur? I don't know how any of the missions work anymore so if this is a thing I wish to be enlightened, please.


So depends on your commanders role... If he is a buffmander and your running a crisis star, that is very effective, but also can be easily countered by your opponent and is limited on objective grabbing.

In my list, I am paying for maximum offense rather then toys so to speak. I need my commander to ensure that I get a clump of markerlights on the target I need wiped out that turn.

Commander is so flexible, such a great HQ.

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 Grizzyzz wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
command and control node for the commander. Skip the weapons on him. use those points elsewhere.


yeah I could but commander wont usually ever be with a unit in this list. he is really only there for the drone controller and to tank that marker light source.


Oh I also have a question. If I have a Rapid Insertion Force formation in my army, do they all roll separately to come in with deep strike, or do I roll once for the entire formation?

Well, this is kind of embarrassing to say but I don't know what a buffmander really is. What sorts of things he takes, ect. but I don't think so. He's just another pair of guns in my army pretty much. I have the list posted in army lists if you want to take a look. I won't repost it here.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/01 16:49:08



1000+ WIP
When they get rules in 30k 
   
Made in us
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Sicarioos wrote:
 Grizzyzz wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
command and control node for the commander. Skip the weapons on him. use those points elsewhere.


yeah I could but commander wont usually ever be with a unit in this list. he is really only there for the drone controller and to tank that marker light source.


Oh I also have a question. If I have a Rapid Insertion Force formation in my army, do they all roll separately to come in with deep strike, or do I roll once for the entire formation?

Well, this is kind of embarrassing to say but I don't know what a buffmander really is. What sorts of things he takes, ect. but I don't think so. He's just another pair of guns in my army pretty much. I have the list posted in army lists if you want to take a look. I won't repost it here.


I don't remember off the top of my head what the formation rule specifically says.

BUT.. if it would specifically say something like "roll for the entire formation", or "the formation comes in together from reserve"... if it doesn't then you roll everything separately.

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San Diego, CA

Sicarioos wrote:
 Grizzyzz wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
command and control node for the commander. Skip the weapons on him. use those points elsewhere.


yeah I could but commander wont usually ever be with a unit in this list. he is really only there for the drone controller and to tank that marker light source.


Oh I also have a question. If I have a Rapid Insertion Force formation in my army, do they all roll separately to come in with deep strike, or do I roll once for the entire formation?

Well, this is kind of embarrassing to say but I don't know what a buffmander really is. What sorts of things he takes, ect. but I don't think so. He's just another pair of guns in my army pretty much. I have the list posted in army lists if you want to take a look. I won't repost it here.


The buffmander is a commander that takes wargear that boost the effectiveness of his squad; i.e. command and control node, Multispectrum Sensor suite, Puretide Engram neurochip, etc. A commander with these wargear will not want to take weapons due to the requirement that the model does not shoot.

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Olympia, WA

 Grizzyzz wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
command and control node for the commander. Skip the weapons on him. use those points elsewhere.


yeah I could but commander wont usually ever be with a unit in this list. he is really only there for the drone controller and to tank that marker light source.


I know. And that is why you take it.

Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife






 Jancoran wrote:
 Grizzyzz wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
command and control node for the commander. Skip the weapons on him. use those points elsewhere.


yeah I could but commander wont usually ever be with a unit in this list. he is really only there for the drone controller and to tank that marker light source.


I know. And that is why you take it.


Twin linked marker lights is good, but at BS5 already I am not too worried about it. Rather have him throwing some extra missles down the field. My personal preference tho, both are certainly viable.

Take a look at my painting blog! Always looking to improve, please feel free to comment with thoughts and advice!

Play TE or FSE, check out my useful guide for New players! 
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Olympia, WA

Overwatch. You take it not just for shooting but for overwatch.

Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com

7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php 
   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife






 Jancoran wrote:
Overwatch. You take it not just for shooting but for overwatch.


Both C&C and multispectrum are only during your shooting phase. They don't work in overwatch.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/01 19:10:15


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DirtyDeeds wrote:
Sicarioos wrote:
 Grizzyzz wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
command and control node for the commander. Skip the weapons on him. use those points elsewhere.


yeah I could but commander wont usually ever be with a unit in this list. he is really only there for the drone controller and to tank that marker light source.


Oh I also have a question. If I have a Rapid Insertion Force formation in my army, do they all roll separately to come in with deep strike, or do I roll once for the entire formation?

Well, this is kind of embarrassing to say but I don't know what a buffmander really is. What sorts of things he takes, ect. but I don't think so. He's just another pair of guns in my army pretty much. I have the list posted in army lists if you want to take a look. I won't repost it here.


The buffmander is a commander that takes wargear that boost the effectiveness of his squad; i.e. command and control node, Multispectrum Sensor suite, Puretide Engram neurochip, etc. A commander with these wargear will not want to take weapons due to the requirement that the model does not shoot.


I see, thanks for the help. I can't really take a buffmander. I don't have any buffs to take as Farsight.
At least nothing that would require me not to shoot to also use it, which is nice I guess. Is a Warscaper Drone worth it? It seems like the Move Through Cover would be nice for jet pack infantry doing the JSJ thing.


1000+ WIP
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Reliable Krootox






 Grizzyzz wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
command and control node for the commander. Skip the weapons on him. use those points elsewhere.


yeah I could but commander wont usually ever be with a unit in this list. he is really only there for the drone controller and to tank that marker light source.

The CnC Node works wonders for when the BS of the Commander gets nullified. Firing at Invisible units, fliers, fireing back at Skyhammer after you fail your 3d6 Pinning check, shooting at Ghostkeels, and Culexus Assassins, etc. Just a few times it can be super useful. Plus, you can take Stims with the leftover points, and freed up slot. 2+ Look Out, 2+/5+FnP in 4+ cover can tank a good deal of shooting.

I too have a soft spot for a Commander with weapons. All that time playing FSE without Iridium got me used to a run-and-gun Mark'O. I have had good luck with the Commander with Iridium, Stims, Drone Controller, 2xMissile Pods. He can't fire off target, but he helps soften the unit for the guys firing next. Pretty cheap for what he does, but I also have Tetras for my Twin-Linked markerlight needs.

If you have issues getting Markerlights on hard to hit targets I would also second trying the CnC Node.
   
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 Plainshow wrote:
 Grizzyzz wrote:
 Jancoran wrote:
command and control node for the commander. Skip the weapons on him. use those points elsewhere.


yeah I could but commander wont usually ever be with a unit in this list. he is really only there for the drone controller and to tank that marker light source.

The CnC Node works wonders for when the BS of the Commander gets nullified. Firing at Invisible units, fliers, fireing back at Skyhammer after you fail your 3d6 Pinning check, shooting at Ghostkeels, and Culexus Assassins, etc. Just a few times it can be super useful. Plus, you can take Stims with the leftover points, and freed up slot. 2+ Look Out, 2+/5+FnP in 4+ cover can tank a good deal of shooting.

I too have a soft spot for a Commander with weapons. All that time playing FSE without Iridium got me used to a run-and-gun Mark'O. I have had good luck with the Commander with Iridium, Stims, Drone Controller, 2xMissile Pods. He can't fire off target, but he helps soften the unit for the guys firing next. Pretty cheap for what he does, but I also have Tetras for my Twin-Linked markerlight needs.

If you have issues getting Markerlights on hard to hit targets I would also second trying the CnC Node.


Yeah maybe its just my past experience as exactly you said.. not used to having Tau relics available. This list is going to be fine tuned i am sure. We will find out starting.. well.. in 8 hours

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NJ

Played two games tonight with an 1850 that I wanted to try out. It gave up stims on the riptide wing in exchange for a drone net. Having jink, split fire and INTERCEPTOR on 16 of those dudes was insanely clutch. Both games the intercepting markerlights showed that they were worth their weight in gold.

As much as I would like to have stims on the Riptides, I think the drone net is better now.

In case you were curious, the list I ran was:

Commander w/iridium and drone controller, FNP

Crisis suit w/2 flamers, BKR
Crisis suit w/2 flamers, BKR

Stormsurge w/pulse driver cannon, air bursting frag projector, shield, EWO
Stormsurge w/pulse driver cannon, air bursting frag projector, shield, EWO

Riptide Wing (all 3 with SMS, HBC and EWO)

Drone Net (min size with all marker drones)

The two lists I played against were pretty nasty but this amount of firepower is pretty much in a league of its own

The only change I'm considering is using a burst cannon in exchange for the frag projector, but I think having the ignores cover barrage is worth losing a point of strength.
   
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Sicarioos wrote:

I see, thanks for the help. I can't really take a buffmander. I don't have any buffs to take as Farsight.
At least nothing that would require me not to shoot to also use it, which is nice I guess. Is a Warscaper Drone worth it? It seems like the Move Through Cover would be nice for jet pack infantry doing the JSJ thing.

Wonderfully in the latest Farsight Enclaves Supplement, they changed the Signature Systems rules and now you can access both!

I have found the Warscaper Drone to be expensive, but a nice luxury. The Move Through Cover is really nice, especially with drones who seem to have about the collision avoidance tech of a Roomba. The benefits of the Outflank and Acute Senses are not to be overlooked. That combo can be either devistating, or useless, depending on the details of the game. You can build other parts of your list to amplify the effectiveness of the drone; using other outflankers and positional relays, homing beacons and deepstrikers come to mind. Reserve mitigations would be wise if you plan on doing that regularly, but with the standard Aegis/Comms (which gets even better with the Ghostkeel Wing) and now the Retaliation Cadre this is easier than before.
Multiple small units of Tetras have been good to me for this due to their low cost, 12" outflank move, and homing beacons. Using more than one unit gives a good chance one will come on to contribute.
   
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NJ

Oh and also I'm thinking that the increase in accuracy might merit the command and control node for the commander instead of stims. Same cost and I think I'd rather have more guaranteed markerlights than a slight increase in durability for the commander. While it may deny warlord longer, not often are motivated players going to find it super difficult to kill a 4W T5 2+ save model, especially when his "invulnerable save" is basically "I hope I'm in cover"
   
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 Plainshow wrote:
Sicarioos wrote:

I see, thanks for the help. I can't really take a buffmander. I don't have any buffs to take as Farsight.
At least nothing that would require me not to shoot to also use it, which is nice I guess. Is a Warscaper Drone worth it? It seems like the Move Through Cover would be nice for jet pack infantry doing the JSJ thing.

Wonderfully in the latest Farsight Enclaves Supplement, they changed the Signature Systems rules and now you can access both!

I have found the Warscaper Drone to be expensive, but a nice luxury. The Move Through Cover is really nice, especially with drones who seem to have about the collision avoidance tech of a Roomba. The benefits of the Outflank and Acute Senses are not to be overlooked. That combo can be either devistating, or useless, depending on the details of the game. You can build other parts of your list to amplify the effectiveness of the drone; using other outflankers and positional relays, homing beacons and deepstrikers come to mind. Reserve mitigations would be wise if you plan on doing that regularly, but with the standard Aegis/Comms (which gets even better with the Ghostkeel Wing) and now the Retaliation Cadre this is easier than before.
Multiple small units of Tetras have been good to me for this due to their low cost, 12" outflank move, and homing beacons. Using more than one unit gives a good chance one will come on to contribute.


Is this in the Kauyon book? I only have the Mont'ka book. I'll have to order it to see. Are there new point values and stuff too?

A buffmander is decent, but I feel like I don't really have any groups of things that if I put the commander in would greatly benefit from him. Maybe the ignores cover because it's a free 2 markerlights on a riptide unit but .. Other than that my suits won't really benefit since it's only AP4. Am I mistaken to judge my armies shooting off how well it does vs MEQ? Should I be more conscious of other things? I haven't played in quite awhile, since before Eldar became a thing. Am I missing some key piece of this puzzle?


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Cobleskill

Sicarioos wrote:
Spoiler:
 Plainshow wrote:
Sicarioos wrote:

I see, thanks for the help. I can't really take a buffmander. I don't have any buffs to take as Farsight.
At least nothing that would require me not to shoot to also use it, which is nice I guess. Is a Warscaper Drone worth it? It seems like the Move Through Cover would be nice for jet pack infantry doing the JSJ thing.

Wonderfully in the latest Farsight Enclaves Supplement, they changed the Signature Systems rules and now you can access both!

I have found the Warscaper Drone to be expensive, but a nice luxury. The Move Through Cover is really nice, especially with drones who seem to have about the collision avoidance tech of a Roomba. The benefits of the Outflank and Acute Senses are not to be overlooked. That combo can be either devistating, or useless, depending on the details of the game. You can build other parts of your list to amplify the effectiveness of the drone; using other outflankers and positional relays, homing beacons and deepstrikers come to mind. Reserve mitigations would be wise if you plan on doing that regularly, but with the standard Aegis/Comms (which gets even better with the Ghostkeel Wing) and now the Retaliation Cadre this is easier than before.
Multiple small units of Tetras have been good to me for this due to their low cost, 12" outflank move, and homing beacons. Using more than one unit gives a good chance one will come on to contribute.


Is this in the Kauyon book? I only have the Mont'ka book. I'll have to order it to see. Are there new point values and stuff too?

A buffmander is decent, but I feel like I don't really have any groups of things that if I put the commander in would greatly benefit from him. Maybe the ignores cover because it's a free 2 markerlights on a riptide unit but .. Other than that my suits won't really benefit since it's only AP4. Am I mistaken to judge my armies shooting off how well it does vs MEQ? Should I be more conscious of other things? I haven't played in quite awhile, since before Eldar became a thing. Am I missing some key piece of this puzzle?


it is in the (blue cover) FSE supplement. Fun thing about the buffmander build - if you wanted to, you could give all that stuff to a crisis shas'vre (after all, where else would your mark'o go?). If you play a hunter cadre, consider spreading the systems out across multiple suits - ignores cover on your missile pods, tling on your reapers, etc. Then, if you combine fire, the squads all gain the abilities (unless you play itc). Lastly, how well your shooting is depends entirely on your local meta.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/02 14:30:01


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