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DirtyDeeds wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Hey Tau players, looking to join your ranks soon, just finishing off my army. Just wondering, how do you guys feel you fare against Tyranids at the moment? And I mean against non Flyer spam nids (2x Flyrant + ground force Nids)?

We fare incredibly well against ground-tyranids. We specialize at killing infantry and the droves and we will make those monstrous creatures fail their saves. We have a plethora of str 6 and str 7 shooting (and str 5 ap 5 that ignore cover and line of sight for the troops). And if you do plan on playing against flyrants, a heavy burst cannon riptide with velocity tracker (skyfire) will drop them out of the sky.

Thank you (I haven't been around much for the last year or so and haven't updated myself with the new Tau that much, and I don't own a 6th copy of the dex to make comparisons of whats changed).

Does Tau now need to spam as many Riptides or Stormsurges as it can fit into 1850 points to beat the onslaught of Tyranids? Or does ground based Tyranid still struggle heavily when put against just 2-3 Riptides and a bunch of other units like it did against the last Tau dex? (obviously this sort of Tau build might be weaker in the broader meta, but asking if its specifically capable of mopping up Tyranids like it used to)

Thanks for taking the time out to respond! I'd appreciate responses from anyone reading this post who has an opinion on it, thank you genuinely trying to up my knowledge here

Well a riptide can drop a flying HT so simply it's not even funny add in all the ignores cover and high strength we wipe up most nits so fast. Storm surges are not something I use but one on paper looks to make nids cry with all that firepower.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Does Tau now need to spam as many Riptides or Stormsurges as it can fit into 1850 points to beat the onslaught of Tyranids? Or does ground based Tyranid still struggle heavily when put against just 2-3 Riptides and a bunch of other units like it did against the last Tau dex? (obviously this sort of Tau build might be weaker in the broader meta, but asking if its specifically capable of mopping up Tyranids like it used to)

So two things. Nids at the moment are rather weak. Tau don't really need the biggest baddest list to hold their own against them. Nids main defense is cover, and Tau can remove that with markerlights. After that, Nids rely either on high toughness or mass wounds. Well again here, base s5 and mainly s6 and s7 weapons, Tau again do not really care about T6 MCs, especially those with 4+ armor (Ghostkeel love those). With mass wounds, Tau have a ton of dakka, with multipliers ala fireblade and ethereal.

If your worried about Nids, don't be

Secondly, in the broader meta, bringing a riptide wing and stormsurge is far from weak. Riptide wing is nasty. Has 0 tax, and makes an already good model, absolutely obnoxious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 raverrn wrote:
Another thing to consider with Psilencers is that GK have pretty easy access to misfortune. If they manage to get it off Riptides get real sad, real fast.

Even still, psilencers are not what to fear in his list. Psychic Shreik sure.

If you know he has misfortune, and prescience and he is going first... then stick your riptide in a ruin and call it a day. If he is putting force on his Nem Dread, then he is not throwing up Sanctuary and I would say that is better for you, even if he gets lucky and takes out your riptide.

Sure, I get it, its a threat, ID is scary, but what are riptides mainly for? taking the aggro of all the scary in the other guys list.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Does Tau now need to spam as many Riptides or Stormsurges as it can fit into 1850 points to beat the onslaught of Tyranids? Or does ground based Tyranid still struggle heavily when put against just 2-3 Riptides and a bunch of other units like it did against the last Tau dex? (obviously this sort of Tau build might be weaker in the broader meta, but asking if its specifically capable of mopping up Tyranids like it used to)

So two things. Nids at the moment are rather weak. Tau don't really need the biggest baddest list to hold their own against them. Nids main defense is cover, and Tau can remove that with markerlights. After that, Nids rely either on high toughness or mass wounds. Well again here, base s5 and mainly s6 and s7 weapons, Tau again do not really care about T6 MCs, especially those with 4+ armor (Ghostkeel love those). With mass wounds, Tau have a ton of dakka, with multipliers ala fireblade and ethereal.

If your worried about Nids, don't be

Secondly, in the broader meta, bringing a riptide wing and stormsurge is far from weak. Riptide wing is nasty. Has 0 tax, and makes an already good model, absolutely obnoxious.

I'm a Nid player myself, I just have been away from the game for a while and trying to get a feel for where Tau is at with the new dex. Specifically, compared to my general list. I'm picking up a Riptide spammy army myself so I'm not worried about this match up, I am however wondering if that is necessary to beat them, so thanks for your answers!

Also, I meant an army WITHOUT stormsurges, in the broader meta might be worse, but just wondering if one of these style lists like Tau would have been running a year ago, could still whomp on Nids. It's no secret Nids lost to Tau's last dex, and it looks to me on initial impressions of the new dex, none of the reasons why Tau won this has been removed, so my impression would be that Tau could still run a list from last years meta and still be able to toast Nids, that was my assertion however I wanted to get some back-up opinions.

The main thing thats changed with my Nids between then and now is the fact that I'm now running a Void Shield Generator, to protect my stuff a little more heavily as it moves up the board, how heavily does this impact Tau? A non cover based defense might just be enough to get my Nids up in your grills before you can mow them all down right, and also protects against early markers and keeps my two Flyrants alive to get airborne in my first turn if I happen to go second?

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Does Tau now need to spam as many Riptides or Stormsurges as it can fit into 1850 points to beat the onslaught of Tyranids? Or does ground based Tyranid still struggle heavily when put against just 2-3 Riptides and a bunch of other units like it did against the last Tau dex? (obviously this sort of Tau build might be weaker in the broader meta, but asking if its specifically capable of mopping up Tyranids like it used to)

So two things. Nids at the moment are rather weak. Tau don't really need the biggest baddest list to hold their own against them. Nids main defense is cover, and Tau can remove that with markerlights. After that, Nids rely either on high toughness or mass wounds. Well again here, base s5 and mainly s6 and s7 weapons, Tau again do not really care about T6 MCs, especially those with 4+ armor (Ghostkeel love those). With mass wounds, Tau have a ton of dakka, with multipliers ala fireblade and ethereal.

If your worried about Nids, don't be

Secondly, in the broader meta, bringing a riptide wing and stormsurge is far from weak. Riptide wing is nasty. Has 0 tax, and makes an already good model, absolutely obnoxious.

I'm a Nid player myself, I just have been away from the game for a while and trying to get a feel for where Tau is at with the new dex. Specifically, compared to my general list. I'm picking up a Riptide spammy army myself so I'm not worried about this match up, I am however wondering if that is necessary to beat them, so thanks for your answers!

Also, I meant an army WITHOUT stormsurges, in the broader meta might be worse, but just wondering if one of these style lists like Tau would have been running a year ago, could still whomp on Nids. It's no secret Nids lost to Tau's last dex, and it looks to me on initial impressions of the new dex, none of the reasons why Tau won this has been removed, so my impression would be that Tau could still run a list from last years meta and still be able to toast Nids, that was my assertion however I wanted to get some back-up opinions.

The main thing thats changed with my Nids between then and now is the fact that I'm now running a Void Shield Generator, to protect my stuff a little more heavily as it moves up the board, how heavily does this impact Tau? A non cover based defense might just be enough to get my Nids up in your grills before you can mow them all down right, and also protects against early markers and keeps my two Flyrants alive to get airborne in my first turn if I happen to go second?

Gotcha! My mistake for misreading

So I only recently started using stormsurges, and they are amazing. Makes its points back in every game, and through 7 games has not even taken a wound yet (i know insane). Take away riptides, take away stormsurges. What do Tau have left? Broadsides, Crisis Suits, Ghostkeel, Firewarriors... all really good units. All put out a ton of dakka. We have other formations too, OSC for example, trio ghostkeel shooting at Bs5 with ignores cover... pretty much the anti Nid unit if I ever saw one haha.

Void shields are being used alot now in the competitive scene, but the issue is how stationary they are. and with your army being rather large (horde) there is only so much that you can pack in around for that 12" bubble. And i would add if your doing that.. Tau have enough RoF to probably pen that shield, and then you have all these bunched up units asking for pie plates. It is a gamble in my opinion. I would suggest investing in more venomthrope to ensure that everything is shrouded, forcing the Tau player to use markerlights to ignore cover, rather then upping his BS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the last bit, the void shield would protect against markerlights.. but i think you are still better off putting your flyrants out of LOS. but that terrain benefit comes to what your local group likes to play.

Don't be afraid to play nids of any sort against Tau. I played a small game against a nid player, 1 Swarmlord against 1 riptide with IA, SMS, Stims, & ECPA (to get the points up, even if it was illegal). By turn 3 the swarmlord had only taken 2 wounds but had killed my riptide when it caught up to it. . . lousy thrust rolls. . .

To be fair, the ITC have targetted Tau more than any other army quite recently. Still seems a little silly to bring an argument and lose an opponent like this though. Tau was always going to be an uphill battle against Tyranids, a lot of high strength shooting practically forces saves on the big ones and flat out kills the smaller ones.

But on topic, what does every use as load outs for Riptide wing? I've got a 1500 point list that includes it (as well as Drone Net and unnerfed Pirahna Firestream) and only have points for 2x HBC, FB, EWO, VT and 1x IA, SMS, EWO, FnP.

Stay on topic, folks. Personal conversations belong in personal messages.

 Frozocrone wrote:
To be fair, the ITC have targetted Tau more than any other army quite recently. Still seems a little silly to bring an argument and lose an opponent like this though.

I am thankful for the games I got. It was, in the end, all worth it, and a wonderful introduction to a very addictive franchise I will never forget I got a bit miffed by the ITC stuff I guess. But even I can see how in the end, they were solving a problem, rather than creating one for me. I'm not forced to pick hunter contingent, or buffmanders.

There's other things I could have done, like my latest list on tautactica: CAD with a gigantic XV8 unit with Shadowsun and a buff'vre, Drone Net VX1 formation for markers, and a riptide wing with 1, 2, and 3 models riptide units staggering fire for extra BS.

 Janthkin wrote:
Stay on topic, folks. Personal conversations belong in personal messages.

See above - take it to PM please, lads! Thanks...

 Frozocrone wrote:
To be fair, the ITC have targetted Tau more than any other army quite recently. Still seems a little silly to bring an argument and lose an opponent like this though. Tau was always going to be an uphill battle against Tyranids, a lot of high strength shooting practically forces saves on the big ones and flat out kills the smaller ones.

But on topic, what does every use as load outs for Riptide wing? I've got a 1500 point list that includes it (as well as Drone Net and unnerfed Pirahna Firestream) and only have points for 2x HBC, FB, EWO, VT and 1x IA, SMS, EWO, FnP.

I use HBCannon, SMS, Counterfire, and Interceptor on mine.

Little toss out, Frankie from Frontline actually just reviewed my list! While I am not particularly in agreement on some of the changes he suggests, I am happy to have had the oppurtunity for them to check it out!

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/04/25/frankies-list-analysis-dark-angels-and-tau-lists/

My list is obviously the Tau one

 Frozocrone wrote:
But on topic, what does every use as load outs for Riptide wing? I've got a 1500 point list that includes it (as well as Drone Net and unnerfed Pirahna Firestream) and only have points for 2x HBC, FB, EWO, VT and 1x IA, SMS, EWO, FnP.

I am also curious what other people are finding the best loadout locally.
Personally, it depends on the rest of my list. When I run my version of the Double Surge/Riptide Wing netlist, I prefer Blastcannons on the Stormsurges and at least two Ion Accelerators in the Wing. This has kind of turned me around on the Accelerator, which I know is good, but had such miserable luck with (and I mean AWFUL), I avoided like the plague. Now that the ECPA is gone, and we have so many new toys and rules, I had to reassess.
When I run the Wing with any other list, I have a hard time doing anything but all HBC. I loved the Pilot Array Burstide, and this is almost like having 3! The only trick is getting all three in position to Hailfire effectively with the shorter range. That's not a big problem with 36" to play with, but often I find my opponents will move to give one Riptide little or nothing to shoot at without moving. The SMS really helps to mitigate this problem with Ripple Fire.
As far as secondary systems go, I rarely run much more than EWO. If I have the points, I take Advanced Targeting on HBC/SMS suits, due to the occasional crime of opportunity they can commit, and it's cheap. The Stims are good, but usually to costly for my taste. I have tried it both ways, and usually the the points work more effectively (for me) when I invest them in Markerlights.

The Riptide Wings does obligate you to a third Riptide. I know some people think this is a fine thing. But let's talk about that for a second.

First and foremost, the reason to take it lasts essentially one round. I know you get to re-roll the Nova's but that is sort of just "nice to have". it's not why you're taking the Riptide Wing.

So being obligated to what will likely be a 200 point modl to get a few extra shots once per game may be getting a little star struck over nothing.

What could you purchase for 200 points? Quite a bit.

I personally have yet to use a Riptide wing because it squeezes the list pretty hard. If its a chaoice between a third Riptide and being able to afford the StormSurge? Stormsurge wins that for me.

If I dont take the third Riptide I can get an entire unit of really heavily armed Crisis suits. I can get a Buffmander. or I can increase the usefulness fo the TWO Riptides immensely with markerlight support.

Not saying that the Riptide Wing is bad. its VERY good. But it comes at a cost and I have been unwlling to pay the cost , especially when the range of their Burst cannons is what it is. . Either you end up just getting Smart Missile shots out of the deal or someone is suiciding to soak the shots early so they dont have to deal with it later on more important things as happened to me at my next t last tournament.

I love the Riptide Wing but i really hate what a lazy brand of 40K it encourages. You should have seen the grumbling one of my...associates... was doing after losing. he acted like losing was not possible because: Riptide Wing. his whole attitude was what I didn't like. It was as if it offended him that he could be beaten after taking something the internet SAID would work. Lol.

I am going down other roads. The codex is so fun and so rich in interesting things to try that I think it will be some time before I play the actual Riptide Wing. I own the third model but its still unpainted and partially unassembled because it just never seems necessary to have three I guess.

 Jancoran wrote:
The Riptide Wings does obligate you to a third Riptide. I know some people think this is a fine thing. But let's talk about that for a second.

First and foremost, the reason to take it lasts essentially one round. I know you get to re-roll the Nova's but that is sort of just "nice to have". it's not why you're taking the Riptide Wing.

So being obligated to what will likely be a 200 point modl to get a few extra shots once per game may be getting a little star struck over nothing.

What could you purchase for 200 points? Quite a bit.

I personally have yet to use a Riptide wing because it squeezes the list pretty hard. If its a chaoice between a third Riptide and being able to afford the StormSurge? Stormsurge wins that for me.

If I dont take the third Riptide I can get an entire unit of really heavily armed Crisis suits. I can get a Buffmander. or I can increase the usefulness fo the TWO Riptides immensely with markerlight support.

Not saying that the Riptide Wing is bad. its VERY good. But it comes at a cost and I have been unwlling to pay the cost , especially when the range of their Burst cannons is what it is. . Either you end up just getting Smart Missile shots out of the deal or someone is suiciding to soak the shots early so they dont have to deal with it later on more important things as happened to me at my next t last tournament.

I love the Riptide Wing but i really hate what a lazy brand of 40K it encourages. You should have seen the grumbling one of my...associates... was doing after losing. he acted like losing was not possible because: Riptide Wing. his whole attitude was what I didn't like. It was as if it offended him that he could be beaten after taking something the internet SAID would work. Lol.

I am going down other roads. The codex is so fun and so rich in interesting things to try that I think it will be some time before I play the actual Riptide Wing. I own the third model but its still unpainted and partially unassembled because it just never seems necessary to have three I guess.

We'll said. The tide wing is strong, but not because it allows for solid tactics, it's strong because it mitigates the cost of tactical mistakes. It's a grind game that will be less prominent or optimized into dawnblade contingents (imho) once we see the coordinated firepower rule play out in a couple of the more popular tourneys testing it.

I'd personally use at least one riptide first in a contingent firebase cad for a second tank/monster hunter shooty tau star along side your buffmanders' coordinated fire team.

I use two riptides, because it is a virtual certainty that I need lures for my strategy to work. I need a high output, high durability unit in each corner. Nothing fits the bill and forces the action better

ive started to detest riptides. My luck with their novas and Gets Hot have been ticking me off lately.

I don't own one, heresy, I know. But I like my crisis suits, Ghostkeels and skyrays that much!

I'm currently running two scary units, an optimised stealth cadre with 3 Ghostkeels and a large crisis suit unit with buffmander. So I like to spend the remaining points on support units, for scoring and markerlights etc.

 Bryan01 wrote:
I don't own one, heresy, I know. But I like my crisis suits, Ghostkeels and skyrays that much!

I'm currently running two scary units, an optimised stealth cadre with 3 Ghostkeels and a large crisis suit unit with buffmander. So I like to spend the remaining points on support units, for scoring and markerlights etc.

Yup. My triple Ghostkeel unit is pretty cool.

 Jancoran wrote:
The Riptide Wings does obligate you to a third Riptide. I know some people think this is a fine thing. But let's talk about that for a second.

First and foremost, the reason to take it lasts essentially one round. I know you get to re-roll the Nova's but that is sort of just "nice to have". it's not why you're taking the Riptide Wing.

You are looking at it wrong, sure Hailfire is just a buff that last one round, it that buff is basically gives 3x Riptides a turn of shooting FOR FREE if you use it wisely, no extra points cost. This synergises very well with re-roll of Nova's, and the situational but still practical buff you didn't mention, of +1 BS for firing on successive targets, and both of these buffs are there all game. And I really wouldn't undersestimate re-rolling Nova's its not just nice to have, the reliable consistency of being able to get the Nova for whatever it is you are looking for, is really strong. A Stormsurge is nice, but nothing is more cost effective than that 3rd Riptide when you factor in the buffs it immediately grants to the other 2 and itself... and you can do both anyway, so the real sacrifice doesn't even have to be the Stormsurge, it's whatever you other stuff you are taking in general.

 Grizzyzz wrote:
I also run ghost wing.. so when i fire at basic ifantry I am charging them to finish them off with ap2 melee!

One minor benefit I have been able to make use of in the Ghost Wing, which sounds esoteric, but comes up more often than I would expect: many players forget about the drones. Specifically, in ITC rules a single model cannot multi-assault, often players do not realize the Ghostkeel can. With proper positioning, I can shoot one enemy squad and charge them and an adjacent unit, finishing off the primary target and tying up a secondary. This has been most useful against Skyhammer and Gladius. Skyhammer Devs that Combat Squad are often perfectly setup for this, and tying up the Suppressing Fusillade is critical. Gladius can often be subject to the same trick, both assaulting a unit and their ObSec transport. Taking out the vehicle and finishing off the unit you shot, either this turn or next. This can also be helpful for "pulling" the unit off of an objective with their consolidation move. Again, not an every game possibility, but Assault options like these were rarely ever an option to me before the Ghostkeel. I would never have gambled a Riptide on moves like these (for fear of getting tied up and losing a round of firepower), but the Ghostkeel's lower cost and harassing nature in the Ghostkeel Wing (and still giving off the Stealth Field from Assault) make it more viable (and tons of fun).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On another note, how has everyone been faring against the new Psychic powers? I've had two games against a good Space Wolves (Wolfen+Thunderbus)/Skyhammer/Conclave player, one win one loss. The win really happened with some luck. I took first turn, and 6ed 2 Stomps. The loss was bad, but not much was left on either side. Both games he drew Electrodisplacement, and the mobility was crazy. Null Zone hurt my Stormsurge badly but that wasn't unpredictable or too much to handle. Each of these powers had to play around my Culexus, and that was fine.

Shifting Worldscape, while not a factor in my games, has me worried. Being neither a Blessing or a Malediction the Culexus does not effect it at all. The only saving grace is that the Assassin still kills any Blessing the arriving unit has, once they land. The other powers are bad, but again the Culexus can shut those down (Veil of Time and Phase Form specifically). I've watched Shifting Worldscape be used to surf the table on a forest and out maneuver the Eldar handedly. That was a match with a sub-optimized SW list and a crafty and locally dominant Eldar player.

As far as the rest goes, I'm moving to a double Culexus setup, just to improve coverage of anti-psychic nonsense. This limits the rest of my list (we use ITC house-rules for casual play in my FLGS so only 3 Detachments) to one Detachment or Combi-Detachment. I've had little playtesting of the Hunter Contingent, but the Dawnblade seems nice.

What are your experiences and how are you planning to adapt to the new Psychic powers?

ShredderShards wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
The Riptide Wings does obligate you to a third Riptide. I know some people think this is a fine thing. But let's talk about that for a second.

First and foremost, the reason to take it lasts essentially one round. I know you get to re-roll the Nova's but that is sort of just "nice to have". it's not why you're taking the Riptide Wing.

You are looking at it wrong, sure Hailfire is just a buff that last one round, it that buff is basically gives 3x Riptides a turn of shooting FOR FREE if you use it wisely, no extra points cost. This synergises very well with re-roll of Nova's, and the situational but still practical buff you didn't mention, of +1 BS for firing on successive targets, and both of these buffs are there all game. And I really wouldn't undersestimate re-rolling Nova's its not just nice to have, the reliable consistency of being able to get the Nova for whatever it is you are looking for, is really strong. A Stormsurge is nice, but nothing is more cost effective than that 3rd Riptide when you factor in the buffs it immediately grants to the other 2 and itself... and you can do both anyway, so the real sacrifice doesn't even have to be the Stormsurge, it's whatever you other stuff you are taking in general.

I think it obvious that the Riptide Wing is better than just three Riptides. Duh. But what I said was that it obligates you to a third Riptide. 200 points buys you a lot of firepower elsewhere and Riptides, especially the shorter range ones that are beloved in this formation for good reason,, are just that: shorter range.

Look at it from another angle. A Gunfort is 255. A full grown man StromSurge is 440. An effective Crisis star easily reaches 200-300 and a couple Ghostkeels 240. As much as i love Riptides, those are all units that ca do various things that are pretty darn effective and would allow me more ways to play.

if I lockup another 200 points on anothr Riptide, those are all units i might not be ableto take. Now for my style of play, I want those things. The Riptide Wing isn't worth more to be than having those alrternatives and the points just cant be there forthem if i take the third one.

So i have become unconvinced that a Riptide Wing, as EXCELLENT as it is (and it is) is going to make enough difference to me that i want to obligate myself to the points.

Lmao table 1 in the final game(rd 5) of De La Warr GT seems to be a Duo Piranha wing army vs SM

From the pic it seems to contain 10 piranha and crap load of drones. 4 Riptides(3 with SMS and Gatling, the other one could be a ION w SMS) and some crisis suits, probably a riptide wing with a CAD.

In one pic, basically the riptides were camping in the corner of the table and bubble wrapped with a bunch of drones.

Good thing ITC nerfed the piranha wing, NOVA needs to do the same, frikin ridiculous

what is an 'effective' crisis star? I will admit to a love affair of Missile Pods & Target Locks in a Marker Drone Infested squad led by a mark'o, but what is meant by it in your lights, Jancoran?

 carldooley wrote:
what is an 'effective' crisis star? I will admit to a love affair of Missile Pods & Target Locks in a Marker Drone Infested squad led by a mark'o, but what is meant by it in your lights, Jancoran?

The Crisis Star is really 400+ points. I typed a wrong number above.

The version I prefer is not generally concerned with range, since it generally deep strikes in. So I (personally) prefer the mixed 3 x 18" dual Fusion plus 3 x 24" dual Plasma bodyguards, plus a Command and Control Bodyguard (with a Flamer and TL Flamers mainly for defense if needed). The unit can essentially kill anything short of a super heavy on the drop, and maybe even one of those. The Multispectral Sensor Suite goes a long way towards nixing the annoying cover saves of Jetbikes and you get twin linking on all of it because of the defensive command and control Bodyguard. that unit is about 476.

It can be more with Drones, to taste. I know some people like the added fire of Gun drones, but that depends a LOT on what the rest of the army is best equipped to handle so i leave that part kind of up for discretion.

The 3 STR 5 attacks each that the Bodyguard gets is kind of cool as well, though one hopes that never comes up. Still 28 attacks on the charge is hardly a crappy effort if they can keep their numbers up.

You can add to this unit the effects of Shadowsun if you want, since you gotta have an HQ anyways. That's a choice you can make. The Ghost Keel wing alongside it is another option.

You can't really afford all this if you're commiting to a third Riptide, not easily. So it's just an example of what you might need those points for instead of spending them on a third Riptide that really may not get you enough production comparatively.

I am not the largest user of this particular unit. I think Ive done it all of thrice, but I've seen it done a lot. Its surprisingly or not so surprisingly effective.Beats face and then the idea is that your defenses and the untimely demise of the most present danger to it can kind of protect it somewhat. If that proposition makes you skittish a few Shield drones or an Irridium upgrade wouldn't hurt.

Short range? The heavy burst is 36" that is plenty of range to hit basically anything that you want. If you play vanguard or dawn of war deployment, you can essentially position yourself to hit about everything on the board. I have yet to have any issue with my riptide wing even hail firing on turn 1 effectively. It is not the 72" (or 60" ?) of the Ion Accelerator, but if your shooting that far, your secondary is near worthless anyway as well.

Additionally, the problem comes with the current meta and cost. More than half of the game is survival now. Especially at tournaments, and the riptide is one of the best survivors in our codex. I can bring a 8 man squad of firewarriors and devilfish, or a tricked out pathfinder crew for out flanking. or a 4 man crisis squad with double plasmas, and while they each have their place, none of them can withstand the same punishment as a riptide for equal cost. You said it yourself earlier, its not always about the one turn firepower, its about the firepower you can put out throughout the 5 turns. And nothing in our codex short of ghostkeel and the stormsurge is able to do that, and on top of that, be versatile enough to make last minute strides to objectives or suddenly change roles (via nova charge). Riptide was made too good in my opinion. (complete seperate topic, but is one of the core issues with the tau codex, that I think needs changed).

Okay I bought a ghostkeel to possibly create interest in building a 7th edition Tau army. What is the best load out as far as primary gun, secondary gun and support systems with a take all comers blind build approach?

Right now I've built the parts to do a fusion collider and TW Fusiom Blasters but can't decide what sort of support systems the ghostkeel would get any use out of.

Also is the plasma rifle and missile pod crisis suit setup still good or are there better generalist setups now?

One more question...well two more. If I use the Farsight Enclaves I still can build a combined arms Tau army that has ghostkeels and stormsurges and as Farsight puts Crisis in Troops and not Elites can you take Crisis in the Troop slot of a Farsight Hunter Contingent?

 Grizzyzz wrote:
Short range? The heavy burst is 36" that is plenty of range to hit basically anything that you want. If you play vanguard or dawn of war deployment, you can essentially position yourself to hit about everything on the board. I have yet to have any issue with my riptide wing even hail firing on turn 1 effectively. It is not the 72" (or 60" ?) of the Ion Accelerator, but if your shooting that far, your secondary is near worthless anyway as well.

Additionally, the problem comes with the current meta and cost. More than half of the game is survival now. Especially at tournaments, and the riptide is one of the best survivors in our codex. I can bring a 8 man squad of firewarriors and devilfish, or a tricked out pathfinder crew for out flanking. or a 4 man crisis squad with double plasmas, and while they each have their place, none of them can withstand the same punishment as a riptide for equal cost. You said it yourself earlier, its not always about the one turn firepower, its about the firepower you can put out throughout the 5 turns. And nothing in our codex short of ghostkeel and the stormsurge is able to do that, and on top of that, be versatile enough to make last minute strides to objectives or suddenly change roles (via nova charge). Riptide was made too good in my opinion. (complete seperate topic, but is one of the core issues with the tau codex, that I think needs changed).

Survival is a thing. I agree. Another thing that is a thing is acceptable losses and saturation. also still a thing. D Weapons? Also a thing.

I have pretty clearly acknowledged several times that the Riptide Wing is good. So i dont THINK we're even arguing that point here. I don't need to be told why its good when I already said it was. Lol.

I'm just telling you that there are other options I prefer more. And now i see people jetting around with four of the things. Its interesting.

The counter is fast melee....as it ever is with the Tau Empire. You gotta take your round of lumps going in and then make hay. The formula is unchanged and so my personal style is to take some of that away from the enemy as an option. I do that by varying my attack and having better answers to more things by being positionally dominant instead of GREAT answers to a few things and being a sitting target.

Dark eldar kind of illustrate my point. Riptide Wings can go down in an awful hurry to them and they really arent a "power Codex" but they do provide a somewhat perfect counter. Speed, melee you can protect on the way in, and lots of Instant Death attacks. The sheer volume of dice allows for a fair chance at it. Even if they lose every round of combat to a Riptide (unlikely), its going nowhere the rest of the game and firing at no one, its super ripple fire potentially wasted on the hull of a Raider or Tantalus if it got it off at all.

Just an example of the type of army i would want to have a slightly different option when facing than just spamming Riptides. Again understanding that spamming Riptides is a very strong play. i have agreed already.




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 BrotherGecko wrote:
Okay I bought a ghostkeel to possibly create interest in building a 7th edition Tau army. What is the best load out as far as primary gun, secondary gun and support systems with a take all comers blind build approach?

Right now I've built the parts to do a fusion collider and TW Fusiom Blasters but can't decide what sort of support systems the ghostkeel would get any use out of.

Also is the plasma rifle and missile pod crisis suit setup still good or are there better generalist setups now?

One more question...well two more. If I use the Farsight Enclaves I still can build a combined arms Tau army that has ghostkeels and stormsurges and as Farsight puts Crisis in Troops and not Elites can you take Crisis in the Troop slot of a Farsight Hunter Contingent?

I think that the Ion Raker and TL Fusion are generally hailed as good ideas. I personally like the Fusion Collider and TL Fusion on two of them and the Ion Raker on one. But it depends strongly on whether you are using them in or out of a Ghostkeel Wing or Optimized Stealth Cadre and whether you have a Stormsurge that can already handle the D-Weapon type responsibilities. But generally.... Ion Raker and TL Fusion are probably what most will hail as preferable. it's a pretty good combo.

As for the Crisis teams, The dual Cyclic Ion Blaster setup is pretty darn awesome. I'd try that. it is a ton o firepower coming from a unit much more inexpensive than the Ghostkeels will be. =). The easy answer to that is, are you going to DS them? range matters a lot less if you are. But if you are committed to starting things o nteh table, the missiles are hard ot beat. You get to hit early and often with them. Plasma is great for close line defense.

Dont have a codex to answer the Hunter Contingent queston

 BrotherGecko wrote:

Okay I bought a ghostkeel to possibly create interest in building a 7th edition Tau army. What is the best load out as far as primary gun, secondary gun and support systems with a take all comers blind build approach?

I personally like the Cyclic Ion Raker and burst cannon or fusion blaster combo. Gives decent RoF and high strength. But it really depends on the rest of your army.. if you are looking to the keel as your low ap.. then your probably going to want the collider.

 BrotherGecko wrote:

Right now I've built the parts to do a fusion collider and TW Fusiom Blasters but can't decide what sort of support systems the ghostkeel would get any use out of.

This unfortunately is also fully dependent on the roll your choosing. I like interceptor, why not?! its 5pts and gives you options. I also like having counterfire on as many high RoF models as I can. But that is the game I play. Some people like spending the extra points on stims for FNP, but other than those, i don't think it is necessary to upgrade the optional slots.

 BrotherGecko wrote:

Also is the plasma rifle and missile pod crisis suit setup still good or are there better generalist setups now?

Since the new codex allows the ion rifle to be taken in mass, that general build has been replaced by 2 cyclic ion blaster (cib) or a cib and a plasma/fusion gun. Generally, this comes down to the role you want your crisis suit to be.. check out my signature for a guide I put together. I cover a few different options.

 BrotherGecko wrote:

One more question...well two more. If I use the Farsight Enclaves I still can build a combined arms Tau army that has ghostkeels and stormsurges and as Farsight puts Crisis in Troops and not Elites can you take Crisis in the Troop slot of a Farsight Hunter Contingent?

The long run I plan to run the ghostkeel with a pair of stormsurges. If I remember right the ghostkeel needs to be in close to the enemy so I figured fusion collider. I suppose flamer would be cool too. Everything is getting magneted so I'm not married to a load out lol.

I haven't thought of cyclic ion blasters on crisis. Do they even make those for the models?

Thanks for the info on the hunter contingent. I'd probably just stick to a farsight combine arms for the short run and then do standard contingent in the long run.

 BrotherGecko wrote:

I haven't thought of cyclic ion blasters on crisis. Do they even make those for the models?

Comes in the commander kits.. but google for "paulson games". He makes some really good custom bits that match well with sizes for Tau.

Cheers!