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Two is always better than one, especially in the case of Stormsurges that benefit from being both GMCs and a squad for wound shenanigans.

SJ

Running 2 Stormsurges is a powerful option, to be sure. Abusing wound allocation to keep them alive makes for a seriously deadly unit. If you can anchor them and go to town for a couple turns, that's probably game over for your opponent. However, you sacrifice a lot in terms of flexibility running multiple models that expensive. You also set yourself up for some GSC or Magnus mind control awfulness.

Personally, while I find 1 Stormsurge essentially indispensable, the second one rarely makes its way into my lists. I prefer having other MCs in there to jump around the table causing problems. I tend to run really mobile lists, so having 850 points of basically immobile units is a problem. Y'Vahras, Ghostkeels, and Riptides fit much better in that slot. On the other hand, I've had some pretty good luck running dual D-shotgun Stormsurges in super-aggressive fashion, so that's a good option to remember.

On another note, has anyone ever tried making a purely mechanized list? I know Hammerheads aren't exactly amazing, but they're at least okay when twin-linked thanks to the Armored Interdiction Cadre bonus. With the current meta full of S6-7 weaponry, AV13 is actually pretty tough to punch through, especially when it has a 4+ cover save. You could run about 14 Hammerheads/Skyrays in 1850 or take out a few to work them into a Hunter Contingent with a Stormsurge: probably the more reasonable option.

I do not particularly find a lot of want for two StormSurges. Magnus the Red makes you think "gee, two MIGHT be nice" given how hard he is, but such a corner case and you can potentially get the result you need through dropping him to the ground and stomping on him without two Surges, in theory.

MilkmanAl wrote:
Running 2 Stormsurges is a powerful option, to be sure. Abusing wound allocation to keep them alive makes for a seriously deadly unit. If you can anchor them and go to town for a couple turns, that's probably game over for your opponent. However, you sacrifice a lot in terms of flexibility running multiple models that expensive. You also set yourself up for some GSC or Magnus mind control awfulness.
.

1 or 2 Stormsurges do not matter for the GSC Mind control. Only one gets to fire.

Oh yeah, interesting. I guess I saw the "targets a single non-vehicle unit..." and turned my brain off.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
At 1850pts, investing in the 2x Surge unit is incredibly costly, and i'd like to decide how interesting/competitive it might be before plunking down the cash for a second one.

I purchased two, and justified it as a modeling project. I hated the 'armless' look of the stock Surge, so I decided to make one with arms from the GW kit and kitbash a second with a third party model as the base. I got very good feedback from the third party model. Long story short, I rarely use a second Surge. It is a very powerful unit, but for competitive games the points can be spent on other threats that force the opponent to make tough choices for Shooting/Assault priority. If you want to make the 2xSurge unit the core of a competitive list, I think that is a completely viable option. As long as you know your competition, and can build the rest of the list around filling those gaps, it can be brutal. I'm currently tweaking a list for a ITC GT and my roughest decision was choosing between the second Surge or Forgeworld. Right now, for my area, the Y'vahra and Tetras are too potent to pass up.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Is it EVER worth building Riptides with the TL-Fusion instead of TL-SMS? Just thinking it might help against inevitable super-heavies?

I never have been disappointed with SMS. Fusion is very situational, but when it is needed there is no substitute. The problem with bringing Fusion against Superheavies/GMCs is that IKnights or Wraithkinghts are very common, and if you are close enough to use the Fusion, it will probably be the last thing the Riptide fires before it gets charged. The SMS is just good almost all the time, particularly when you Intercept. I often use the SMS from Riptides without the primary weapon, due to the Twin-link. Terrain also plays a part as well. If you anticipate lots of LoS blocking pieces SMS is stupid good. Even when you know you can't get a bead on someone, you can Nova the SMS and drop decent firepower regardless. If you can't decide just remember: Tau love magnets. The weapons on a Riptide are just about the easiest you will ever do as well. I only run SMS anymore but, occasionally, when I need it, Fusion is swappable.

MilkmanAl wrote:
On another note, has anyone ever tried making a purely mechanized list? I know Hammerheads aren't exactly amazing, but they're at least okay when twin-linked thanks to the Armored Interdiction Cadre bonus. With the current meta full of S6-7 weaponry, AV13 is actually pretty tough to punch through, especially when it has a 4+ cover save. You could run about 14 Hammerheads/Skyrays in 1850 or take out a few to work them into a Hunter Contingent with a Stormsurge: probably the more reasonable option.

I have played a very successful semi-competitive setup with the AIC, CAD, and Ghostkeel Wing. The Ghostkeel Wing provides an additional Stealth buff to the DPods and the Battlesuits are big enough to give a 5+ cover screen in a pinch. If you can grab a ruin to hide behind then the vehicle gets a 2+. I run a CAD with Tetras for Markerlights to keep with the mechanized theme, and give one Tetra in each unit a DPod. Barring an "Explodes!' Result on the damage table, this give the lead Tetra an effective 12 Hull Points, if you can keep their low profile behind a ruin. Without an answer to Psychic Deathstars (due to the ITC Formation limit) I haven't pushed this setup farther than semi-competitive. I have a few drafts for a GkW and Dawnblade with a Skysweep and the same principle, that allows an anti-Psychic Detachment, but have not had the time to play it yet. Please post about any success you have with an attempt in this area, I would love to hear about any results you get.

This might bear some discussion. What would people put into a list instead of a second storm surge?

For example, at my 1850, I'm running

Commander, Iridium, drone controller

Crisis Suit (flamer)
Crisis Suit (flamer)

2 stormsurge (shields, pulse driver cannon)

Drone Net (all markers)

Riptide Wing (all HBC & SMS)

Say you take one of the surges out. What would be a better points investment?

Possibly some Broadsides, plus some better weapons/more bodies on your Crisis squads. If you still have enough points, you can't go wrong with a Ghostkeel, either. I would say take an OSC with the points from the second Stormsurge, but if you are playing in an ITC event you already have the max number of detachments.

 luke1705 wrote:
Say you take one of the surges out. What would be a better points investment?

I can only speak to what my local ITC events are like, and what has worked for me. I find that a well constructed Deathstar can walk through a Hailfire and Double heels down Surge unit, with minor casualties. Invis Deamon Knights with a 2++, rerolling 1s are also rarely scratched; and its support units are often just as tough, or worse. Heck, even a Fortuned melee Wraithknight can be game breaking if the scatbikes get the drop on your Markers, preventing you from having Str D. For me, Psychic defense is a must. I love the Culexus, but Sisters of Silence are my new go-to. 2 squads of Sisters and a Y'vahra are less than the cost of a Surge, and the Y'vahra is a beast.

My current Tournament set up went so far as to drop the Commander and Drones, in favor of Tetras. The Tetra's Scout Redeployment and 12" move make it highly likely my opponent will be in range to drop D-Missiles turn 1. Often the Commander's drones could be out of range and then under heavy fire even if I went first. I swapped in a Fireblade and two Broadsides for additional Interceptor, and that has been a fine substitute.

What are your opinions on the burst cannon Hazard suits? I'm not playing in tournaments, and I just bought two because they look pretty. General power level/best ways to use them? My normal list doesn't have much anti-horde.

Say you take one of the surges out. What would be a better points investment?

For you, in particular, I'd probably add a couple IA Riptides and condense the HBC ones you have into 1 unit with target locks to get Fire Team. Maybe toss in another flamer suit, too, if you have the points. Generally speaking, Riptides, Y'Vahras, Broadsides, and Ghostkeels are all great options for Stormsurge replacements, depending on your list. It's pretty tough to go wrong.

While I haven't yet run Sisters of Silence, I think they're probably going to end up being a staple of competitive Tau lists. We struggle against strong psychic phases and deathstars, in particular, so being able to shut those down even for a turn is a huge deal. Having a touch of melee oomph never hurt, either.

As for hazard suits, I'd consider Broadsides overall better. While Broadsides aren't as mobile, I'd say durability is roughly a wash, while firepower is clearly better with missilesides.

 luke1705 wrote:
This might bear some discussion. What would people put into a list instead of a second storm surge?

For example, at my 1850, I'm running

Commander, Iridium, drone controller

Crisis Suit (flamer)
Crisis Suit (flamer)

2 stormsurge (shields, pulse driver cannon)

Drone Net (all markers)

Riptide Wing (all HBC & SMS)

Say you take one of the surges out. What would be a better points investment?

at 2K which I just played, I have a full sized Optimized Stealth Cadre, 2 Riptides, a Stormsurge, a Sniper Drone squad for markerlight support, Kroot for anti-scouting, 3 monat Crisis suits that drop in with Flamers, an Ethereal.

 luke1705 wrote:
This might bear some discussion. What would people put into a list instead of a second storm surge?

For example, at my 1850, I'm running

Commander, Iridium, drone controller

Crisis Suit (flamer)
Crisis Suit (flamer)

2 stormsurge (shields, pulse driver cannon)

Drone Net (all markers)

Riptide Wing (all HBC & SMS)

Say you take one of the surges out. What would be a better points investment?

Coldstar mark'o?

I want the coldstar to be useful, but I really can't think of a reason that just about anything else for the points wouldn't be better. His armament and durability just kind of suck. The best use I've heard of so far is using him in a HC to fly around granting run/shoot moves to things in the enemy backfield, but even that isn't too terribly difficult to come by otherwise in a Tau list these days.

MilkmanAl wrote:
I want the coldstar to be useful, but I really can't think of a reason that just about anything else for the points wouldn't be better. His armament and durability just kind of suck. The best use I've heard of so far is using him in a HC to fly around granting run/shoot moves to things in the enemy backfield, but even that isn't too terribly difficult to come by otherwise in a Tau list these days.

Outside of a fluff build, literally the only purpose for a cold star suit, is to use him in the hunter contingent with the ambushes and feints special rule, where a unit within 12" of him can run/flout out and shoot as normal. The cold star suit means he can keep up with piranhas with fusion blasters to get in t1 melta range, and then be able to scoot as far away as they need to turn 2/ get the best arc on the other flank. If you aren't doing that, or plan on the piranhas dying t1, then a regular commander is just as useful or more.

If you haven't tried it yet, it will ruin an IK day as they declare their invul shield on 1 side, and you flat out 18" behind them and ignore it.

MilkmanAl wrote:
I want the coldstar to be useful, but I really can't think of a reason that just about anything else for the points wouldn't be better. His armament and durability just kind of suck. The best use I've heard of so far is using him in a HC to fly around granting run/shoot moves to things in the enemy backfield, but even that isn't too terribly difficult to come by otherwise in a Tau list these days.

put him with one of the drone net squads. use it to reposition them for better placement, also, it helps to preserve them for when you want to use them, as they are not targetable when zooming. and you would have 2-3 other squads of markerlights to use at the time.

I'm sure that I will eventually get a Y'vahra and some tetras to try that out in lieu of the stormsurge, but outside of a deathstar with a lot of bodies, I don't find too many issues. A well-placed D missile will down any wraithnight or a daemon knight. But yeah deamons with good invuln saves would probably be a bear. Guess you just kill everything except the buffed unit, especially since even daemon deathstars often rely on either a cover save at some point or Fateweaver, who will be easier to down with the new FAQ and thus less enticing. And without fatey, you fail the grim and your deathstar is toast.

Have no intentions of running more normal riptides though lol. IA is nice but since both my stormsurges have the pulse driver cannon, that niche is pretty covered, so taking out one for the other is a lateral move, and IMO not a better one.

Anti-scouting is interesting though...maybe an inquisitorial detachment with a culexus and a servo skull dude...could then change the drone net to tetras...hmm something to consider.

 carldooley wrote:
put him with one of the drone net squads. use it to reposition them for better placement, also, it helps to preserve them for when you want to use them, as they are not targetable when zooming. and you would have 2-3 other squads of markerlights to use at the time.

Since he's a FMC the GW FAQ nerfed that option (Page 7):
Q: If a Monstrous Creature is also an Independent Character, can it join other units? Can other Independent Characters then join the unit that the Monstrous Creature is now a part of?
A: No, to both question.

 luke1705 wrote:
Fateweaver, who will be easier to down with the new FAQ and thus less enticing.

I must have missed that bit in the FAQ. What makes Fateweaver easier to tackle?

 Plainshow wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
put him with one of the drone net squads. use it to reposition them for better placement, also, it helps to preserve them for when you want to use them, as they are not targetable when zooming. and you would have 2-3 other squads of markerlights to use at the time.

Since he's a FMC the GW FAQ nerfed that option (Page 7):
Q: If a Monstrous Creature is also an Independent Character, can it join other units? Can other Independent Characters then join the unit that the Monstrous Creature is now a part of?
A: No, to both question.

 luke1705 wrote:
Fateweaver, who will be easier to down with the new FAQ and thus less enticing.

I must have missed that bit in the FAQ. What makes Fateweaver easier to tackle?

He has to be on the board to take advantage of his re-rolls. Previously, there was no down side to fateweaver being on the board for only your psychic phase and running into ongoing reserves for 1/2 of your opponent's shooting phases. Now, they either sacrifice his durability or his effectiveness.

I'm completely missing that in the finalized FAQ, can you point me to a page/section where that is stated? I would love to have a leg up on that flying turkey.

I attended a tournament recently with my tau, small recap; I played Enclaves:
Tournament used ICT mission but not their rules; Full power invis and 2+ re-roll in effect. Used GW Draft FAQ

Retal Cadre core

Commander with plasma rifles, FNP, Iridium, PEN
5 man Crisis Team with Buff''vre(Vectored, MSSS, C&C) 3x 2 Plasma Rifle, 1x 2 fusion with target lock
2x1 double fusion suit
Riptide with ECPA
2 broadsides with 4 drones


Rapid Insertion Force
Big stealth team with drones, 'vre with homer, light and fusion
2 Burst suits with 2 drones
1 Double fusion suit
1 double CiB suit
Riptide with ION

Drone net, 4x4 marker drones

Now the list was kind of because I wanted to play with a lot of crisis suits. I had originally planned to play battle company but the tournament ended up using the ''GIANT'' drop pod rule and as my battle company has 7 pods... I didn't really want to do that. I ended up playing the RIF because I needed something to deploy; I would have play the 3x broadsides 3x pathfinder formation instead but didn't have enough pathfinder so, this is it!

Game 1 against whitescars biker deadstar + spacewolf get started formation. I end up rolling for first turn and master of ambush so.....
I deploy everything -RIF, big unit with commander hidden out of los but close enough to turn one nuke his deadstar together with Riptide and broadsides, I deploy save enough because I'm scared of getting seized on. He rolls; . Well okay not bad, I deployed save enough, I can take it. Chapter master orbital bombardment on my main team; no LOS, to me, rolls double 6 for scatter distance but; HIT!, I loose most of my big team, kicking myself for not deep striking at that moment and getting greedy with MoA but still think going for the kill was the best play.

Game devolves into me trying to stay alive and killing not deadstar stuff. He doesn't push hard enough with his star (He could have had me completely turn 2/3 if he just shoved it down my throat but ends up camping midfield trying to clear my small units. I end up killing his small units but luck was against me; Stealth team failed 7/9 saves and my broadsides with markerlight support LOOSE shootout with 10 grey hunters. using the 4d6 jump moves on riptides and extreme force conservation tactics see me win the game on objectives but I really shouldn't have if he just pushed with the star.

Game 2 against Dark Angels battle company with 5(!!) units of scouts.

Deployment was diagonal, I look at his list and I outrange him completely, so I deploy everything - RIF. However he has something called and anniversary marine which has me scared shitless, 2 shot, str5 ap 2 INSTANT DEATH. That can kill my riptide pretty well (And I have no EWO's). I castle/spread out across my corner and wait for his drops..... He just drops 2 dread holding of his command team, so another turn of me in the corner playing long range nukes. Finally THAT pod comes in, he hits with one and fails to wound the tide! I thought it be a gonner. In my turn I clear his command team (Command squad, DA special character libby and a captain) with my command team and start to push aggressively up the table for the next 3 turns. Do well on maelstrom and almost end up tabling him!. The broadsides with target lock were really clutch; killing 2/3 units every turn really helps cut down the battle company.

Game 3, Iron hands demi company + knight. This had Libby conclave dead star + chaptermaster with 2+, 3++ and 2+++FNP. GULP!.
We're playing long ways and I reserve everything - Drones and stealth team. He seems very scared of my drop and holds back turn 1/2 waiting for me. I'm okay with this; I don't really get good deep strike target but I can hide my units and we're going even with the maelstorms. As my drops come in I deep strike command team in my DZ and push drones as a screen. Rest of units just start unloading into his demi-company + knight.

As he pushes up his deadstar I push the other directions with small crisis teams. My ECPA riptide is clutch as it take 4/6 HP of the knight in one turn (2 markelights, dawnsblade benefit; hitting on 2's re-rolling, penning on 6's rerolling! awesome!). However invis + 2+ re-roll; I can't really hit the deathstar at all; I end up killing everything else and, using drones to control/block his movement the best I can. He splits it up last turn; we tie the game. I would have lost this one if he pushed with his star from the get go.

Game 4: against genestealer cult with 3 flyrants allied.
He had brood cycle + 2 sub ter. uprising and 3 flyrants, and first turn. Uh o!
I deploy everything - RIF and turtle behind my drones. He reserves his flyrants! Later he told me he was scared I'd sieze and kill but there was LOS blockers to hide so... anyway. He assaults my castle and I end up killing 5/6 units in overwatch, loose some drones and my sealth team. My turn I delete 5 units through Broadsides, riptide, command team. After that his flyrants come in and kill my commander, but my 'Vre manages to survive with 3 plasma buddies. My turn 'Vre & CO kill 1 flyrant, markerlights and Broadsides+Riptide kill another. After that I'm moving up the table in 2 ''kill'' teams; anything rolling 6's to come one will get wiped in the overwatch. Broadsides/sms from riptides really pull through in this game. WIN!
If flyrants started on the table I'd have lost; turn 1 they could have easily killed most of my drones; my overwatch would have been worse, Firepower units and not marker drones would have been killed and my turn 1 I'd have had too many targets (flyrants + ground instead of just ground).

Game 5: against elder
He has: Wraith knight, Crimson hunter formations, 2x2 hornets, Warphunter (?) small blasts and flame D. Lots of scatbikes and Autarch as HQ and a culexus
Pretty sure I should loose this game; enough firepower to table me turn 3, but it's not how it went.
It's diagonal again, I roll the re-roll reserve warlord trait and play first. I deploy Riptide, broadsides, drones, stealth. He deploy everything - warphunter, hornets and Crimsons.
I push my stealth team behind BLOS close to his DZ and turn one start to shoot scatbikes hoping for leadership tests and stop his mobility/firepower. I also find the terrain very useful; My drones and stealth teams can hop over walls shoot, and with a 2'' roll get out of LOS. Turn one I kill a bunch of bikes, he deployed WAY to close the terrain. I was scared he'd send his wraithknight to flush out my stealth team quickly but nope. His turn one a broadside + some drones die, and not much else. My reserves arrive and I put as much in his DZ as I can; I want to kill the Knight and all his bikes if I can; ECPA riptide again clutch, 1 markerlight; stacks 4 wounds on the Wraithknight and 3 go through FNP. Command team deals 2 more wounds but I can't get the last one of it! however I do kill almost all his bikes, culexus still hiding in a corner. His turn; in come crimson hunters, Hornets but not the Warphunter! I loose ECPA riptide and last drones of broadside team, bunch of solo suits die.

My turn, Kill wraithknight, 2/3 crimson hunters (Command team gets one, broadside with markers get one and I make hornet jink. His turn, hunter comes in a wipes out my whole stealth team in who had sneaked up the middle of the board to get a obj. there in one go But..... if he went for my command team I'd might have lost the game there. Anyway I use LOS to JSJ, his firepower has taken a massive hit but I still have command team, ION tide, solo suits and markers operational, last 2 turn is me tabling him for the tournament win!


Take aways: 4/5 games I feel I should have lost. Both deathstars didn't push. The elder player had me easily outranged and if he deployed far back I wouldn't have been able to hurt him turn 1 &2. Genestealer cult with flyrants on the table would have overwhelmed me.

Units I liked: Retal cadre!! I deployed in 4/5 game because of me taking the RIF.... but Damn that ECPA riptide and Relentless broadsides put in work. I missed not having EWO but with the target lock broadsides really pulled through for me vs battle company and genestealer cult. I really liked the ''small'' deathstar of 5 suits + commander as well. Really useful to be able to just say: DELETE that unit (except of course, invis+ 2+ reroll units)

I did like the stealth team but not the RiF. Being locked in deep strike (and forced to deploy with stealth) loses you tactical flexibility; But twin linked double burst cannons were awesome.

Now a couple of weeks later I played more tau game taking even more crisis suits and I'm beginning to think there might be a ''crisis critical mass'' point; 1060 gives you 20 crisis suits with double 15 pt. weapons. The damage they put out and tactical flexibility/movement they have is great. I now have 15 crisis, next time I might have 18 and I'll test it but, all those small units with crazy firepower who can adept to any situation, I begin to feel there is potential here that's greater than it first appears.

Wow long write , hope there is something useful there.

Fruzzle

Thanks for the batrep, Fruzzle! I really do like your list; very different from other Tau lists I've seen. I've tried out the RIF myself, and like you I found it somewhat underwhelming. I only tried it once in a casual game against a relatively soft Astra Militarum list that my friend was running. It was part of a DBC with a Hunter Cadre as core (including a Stormsurge). I also had a drone net and a Razorshark (because I wanted to try it). I ended up winning pretty handily, but it was the Stormsurge that did most of the work, rather than the RIF.

I definitely want to try out the Retaliation Cadre sometime. I've never actually run one before, but if I wanted to run one as core in a DBC I wouldn't be able to run my Stormsurge, and that's a no-no for me in tourney play. If I had a couple more Riptides or Ghostkeels, I might consider leaving the Surge out, but as it is I usually need its firepower.

It's also nice to see people getting good mileage out of Crisis suits. I don't own enough of them to create the classic "Farsight Bomb" or "Crisis Bomb" as it's called nowadays, but I do enjoy running a squad of 3 with 2x plasma and EWO on each, and solo ones are good for popping tanks. I may pick up another Start Collecting box, as I could definitely use more Crisis suits, and the infantry could come in handy for something too.

Interesting report, to be sure. I don't think I've ever seen anyone go with a RIF, so that was nice to see. I've been mulling over MSU Crisis Suit lists, and I'd really like to include the RC because relentless Broadsides are badass. Using target locks is a good idea, but losing EWO on Broadsides is pretty tough for me to swallow. I suppose it's worth a shot, though, if you're running a unit of 3 of them which would overkill just about anything it shot at.

 Plainshow wrote:
Since he's a FMC the GW FAQ nerfed that option (Page 7):
Q: If a Monstrous Creature is also an Independent Character, can it join other units? Can other Independent Characters then join the unit that the Monstrous Creature is now a part of?
A: No, to both question.

thankyou for that GW. I no longer have a reason to get another.

I was reading through the Tau coded and I have a question; how much does a unit with two Ghostkeels cost? If I'm reading the entry right, it is 520 before upgrades. . . And that can't be right?

 carldooley wrote:
I was reading through the Tau coded and I have a question; how much does a unit with two Ghostkeels cost? If I'm reading the entry right, it is 520 before upgrades. . . And that can't be right?

A ghostkeel is 130 points before upgrades

 Jancoran wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
I was reading through the Tau coded and I have a question; how much does a unit with two Ghostkeels cost? If I'm reading the entry right, it is 520 before upgrades. . . And that can't be right?

A ghostkeel is 130 points before upgrades

Thanks for that. \sarcasm

I checked the FAQ and errata, so apparently it stands. The first ghostkeel is 130, true. But what does the line say about adding more?

You may include up to two additional Ghostkeel Shas'vre, each with two MV5 Stealth Drones. . . \\. . . 130 pts/model

so. . .
first ghostkeel is 130, granted.
the second costs 130 also, yes; but each of the drones cost 130 each also.

Uh...I think it's fairly obvious that they mean the cost of a Ghostkeel and its drones is 130 pts.

MilkmanAl wrote:
Uh...I think it's fairly obvious that they mean the cost of a Ghostkeel and its drones is 130 pts.

RAI possibly, but not RAW.

It's very much RAW. Each Ghostkeel comes with two of its drones for 130 pts before upgrades.