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 The Shrike wrote:
Post LVO, do you all feel like Tau are really true large-event competitors at this point? Because I think they're in the Gladius and Eldar tier of competitors; enough to beat up on most, but just short of true winners. Seems like that is reserved for Deathstars, Warcon and Daemons.

I've tried crafting lists that ignore obsec and just kill things; but they're rendered useless by psychic defensive powers from telepathy and biomancy. I've tried going all out MSU, which fwiw, makes for some really fun, interesting lists but still does MSU worse than Gladius. What to do?

TL;DR: What do we need to do to compete? Is it even possible?

I feel like just as top players have stretched allies to the limit, and stolen Riptide Wings for literally any army that can take them, Tau competitive play might want to try more outside the box allies to see what shakes out. Even before Nayden showed up at LVO with them, I had been painting up 30 Sisters of Silence expecting them + Bunker w/Escape Hatch to help complicate the psychic heavy meta. Likewise I am running Basilius Cawl and a Holy Requisitioner formation with a FSE CAD for an upcoming event too.

Basically, its time to make stuff weird.

Speaking of allies.

Which formation provides some good melee capabilities that go well with Tau lists? Canoptek Harvest seems to be popular. Does anyone use any other formations?

 Fueli wrote:
Speaking of allies.

Which formation provides some good melee capabilities that go well with Tau lists? Canoptek Harvest seems to be popular. Does anyone use any other formations?

In the past I have done really well with the Eldar Aspect Host (I believe its called), which gives you three units of potentially BS5 Warp Spiders. They're awesome objective grabbers, annoying to remove bodies (something Tau often lacks a volume of), and have decent enough shooting that they can't be ignored in some match-ups.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
A skilled player picks the army that they can win with. The lack of Tau in the winners circle at GT's is a testament to what winners pick to win with. Just saying.

SJ

I'd say he picks an army - not necessarily the army - he can win with, but point taken. The proof is in the pudding. I'm sure there were plenty of skilled players who brought Tau lists to the LVO.

As for melee Tau allies, I feel like Canoptek Harvest and a Grotesquerie are the two best options with Wulfen and Gorepack also being viable. Sisters of Silence pack a reasonable punch and provide the psychic defense we need so desperately, so that'd likely be my choice in a competitive scene.

If you were looking to get freaky with allies, you could definitely do a lot worse than a core of an Ethereal or Commander, 2 Crisis Suits, Marker Drones or Tetras, and 2 Stormsurges. That's in the neighborhood of 1200 points, depending on amounts and upgrades, so you've got plenty of room to play.

I think the problem is that few formations have the "all in one(wonder)" quality that Riptide Wing brings to other armies. As its somewhat Marker-independent, it doesn't need anything else Tau to shine as brightly as it does for us.

Borrowing stuff like a Wulfen Murder-pack is awesome... but they shine brightest wish Psychic buffs, meaning FURTHER costs in allies.

I'm with you Milkman... Sisters are a great add because they'll contribute what they do best with no tax, and minimal expenditure.

Deathstars will continue to give us fits. ;-p

Here's a question for the thread. In a Magnus heavy meta, which statistically is a better Magnus Killer... a full OSC with Vector Trackers on the Ghostkeels, or a Riptide Wing with HBC and Vector Trackers?

MilkmanAl wrote:
I

I think it's obvious that game skill matters, but if we're discussing being at the top of a major tournament, isn't it a bit of a given that the players are skilled?

Its a given that skilled players show up. But as you can see some very skilled players had to play other skilled players and so sometimes even the best if matched up early enough can get knocked out by equals and so on.

Here is my thought: winning that many games is EXTREMELY difficult. Dice are a thing. I was one die roll away from a 5-1 finish at my last Major of the season. I got cheated in the first round out of 4 points which was equally annoying and made a very significant difference in my placing. All these things happen. That is why i have so often said that the best General is the one who makes the dice the least important it is possible to make them. Even then, you cannot guarantee much at an event of this size with as many die rolls as your forces will be called upon to make.

Your best bet is to secure your place in the standings long before the Las vegas Open which grants an enormous amount of points and can turn the whole ITC upper crust on its head.

This was my first year of actually even bothering with the ITC. I played in a lot of tournaments beforehand but this was the first time I actually decided to compete in ITC events or to hold or promote them. I can tell you that even as well as i did, you are always one or two tiny rolls or decisions away from a victory at the top table and its no shame to lose to some of those guys. You can go 4-2 and be pretty happy when your opponents were ranked as highly as they are at times.

So the final standings certainly are worthy of all the respect we give them but just keep in mind: a lot of AWFULLY good generals had to have a bad die roll or two go against them in order for number one to be where he is, also. But as i say: the one left standing is the one who made his own bad luck matter less. =)

I think it has to be said as well that whether it be through summoning, or free wargear, or replenishing units, getting extra points without paying for them has become close to essential to compete at the top. I'll be giving the firestream wing a try, although even that seems like a sorry excuse for the "free points" mechanic. After all, with how many games were only going 3-4 turns, you may get to Rearm and Refuel once. May.

I now realize that I'd assumed the ITC was falling in line with the GW FAQ which clarified that you can have your Firestream Wing enter and leave play on the same turn, a ruling that emerged well after the ITC declared that you must wait a turn to leave, when that may not be the case. If you still have to wait a turn and use the Firestream Wing as a seeker missile battery, that's quite a lot less useful. It's the massive drone generation that makes the formation worthwhile, even in those 4-turn games.

MilkmanAl wrote:
I now realize that I'd assumed the ITC was falling in line with the GW FAQ which clarified that you can have your Firestream Wing enter and leave play on the same turn, a ruling that emerged well after the ITC declared that you must wait a turn to leave, when that may not be the case. If you still have to wait a turn and use the Firestream Wing as a seeker missile battery, that's quite a lot less useful. It's the massive drone generation that makes the formation worthwhile, even in those 4-turn games.

I think the updated/finalized Tau FAQ revoked that draft ruling, didn't it?

draft rulings are dead.

Yes; you have to wait a turn. Although it's still better than the previous ITC vote because you can replenish all dead piranhas.

Oh...then I guess I hadn't seen the revision of the draft or something. The last one I saw allowed you to return and leave on the same turn, and I thought that was put out fairly recently. Oh well. One more formation to the scrap heap. No wonder there weren't many Firestreams at LVO.

MilkmanAl wrote:
No wonder there weren't many Firestreams at LVO.

Of the three (Primary Faction) Tau lists in the top 50 at the LVO, one was running the Firestream. Condidering the poor showing in the final standings (despite being the third most taken Faction) that should tell us he was doing something right with it. He didn't have a Riptide Wing either, it was an interesting build.

I think the problem with ranking how the top Tau player performed at LVO is that its hard to gauge, considering this LVO everyone and their uncle was rolling up with Renegade Artillery as the new "me too!!!" tech of the season.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I think the problem is that few formations have the "all in one(wonder)" quality that Riptide Wing brings to other armies. As its somewhat Marker-independent, it doesn't need anything else Tau to shine as brightly as it does for us.

Borrowing stuff like a Wulfen Murder-pack is awesome... but they shine brightest wish Psychic buffs, meaning FURTHER costs in allies.

I'm with you Milkman... Sisters are a great add because they'll contribute what they do best with no tax, and minimal expenditure.

Deathstars will continue to give us fits. ;-p

Here's a question for the thread. In a Magnus heavy meta, which statistically is a better Magnus Killer... a full OSC with Vector Trackers on the Ghostkeels, or a Riptide Wing with HBC and Vector Trackers?

Thanks for this and to all others that replied. I like how the wulfen look and know they are beasts in cc, but it's true that they need psychic buffs to really make a difference. I'm looking something that can just be tacked on (like Riptide wing is tacked on many lists) a list for some counter assault duty, so it should be self sufficient. I like the dual role of Sisters of Silence too and I shall look into those.

That and Magnus. Everyone loved them some Magnus.

I don't think the FSW is useless without the ability to dodge in and out at will, but it's not a competitive choice under those circumstances. 99/100 IA Riptides agree that you can do better than 6 seeker missiles every other turn for 168 points.

I'm not surprised that the Riptide Wing got so much attention since it's big and flashy and plugs in well to just about any list as a sort of fire-and-forget addition. However, I find it strange that Hunter Contingents didn't get more play. The potential for MSU-ish lists with army-wide buffs is strong meta defense, and everyone loves Tau that shoot even better, right? I know that losing ObSec hurts some, but we don't tend to bring the most durable troops in the world. It also seems like the whole field (understandably) had a major hard-on for Y'Vahras, so that may have contributed, as well. I figured there would be plenty of plug-and-play formation lists, but I thought there'd be a few more oddballs in the field. Maybe next year.

the Y'Varah is definitely silly good and I fought one at the Bay Area Open. He got lucky on his saves but still, they performed so far above their points.

Jancoran, I have two Y'Vahras but haven't deployed them yet. Do you recommend Stims? They get so expensive so fast; especially running two. They start to push other things out of the list. I feel like they are too fragile to be the main damage dealers, but if I fit a Stormsurge and marker support in I have very little left and have to get decent obsec. Does an ideal Y'Vahra list bypass a Stormsurge and try to lean in to the concept of no markers? I could go double Y'Vahra and run an OSC with it...Interested to hear everyone's thoughts.

Something like this?

Ethereal

Monat: 2x Flamers
Monat: 2x Flamers
Monat: 2x Flamers

5x Breachers, Fish
5x Breachers, Fish
5x Breachers, Fish
10x Kroot
10x Kroot
10x Kroot

Y'Vahra: Stims
Y'Vahra: Stims

OSC

3x Ghostkeels: 3x CIR, 3x TL Fusion, 2x Target Lock, 1x EWO

3x Stealths
3x Stealths


1846

I always put stims on mine. They have fewer wounds and are going to be up front in harm's way. Not to mention they're a priority target. It's worth the 35pts.

I like the list you've cobbled together, but I don't think competitive lists without a Stormsurge are much good these days. Your list will basically just have to ignore Wraithknights and will struggle badly against Magnus. That said, you're in pretty decent shape against the Renegade artillery spam that seems to be gaining favor now and will at least have a fighting chance against most deathstars (until they get into combat with you since you don't have anything that stomps). If it weren't for those few popular choices, you'd be in great shape to dominate.

I ran 2 yvahra at lvo and I think stims are not worth it. With so many d weapons in the game you hardly get to use stims. Look at rvarnas. I wasn't sold on them before but I am now and so we're my opponents. They really clear out deathstars, vehicles, and bike units. And they are so durable.

The job of the Yvahra is to fly up, kill a high priority target and hopefully get its points back, and do it's best to weather a turn of return fire. I think with this Metra points are better spent on velocity tracker.

R'Varna has been on my "to buy" list for a while now. Ap4 is meh but 4 Ap4 large blasts is awesome. Later Grav Devastators! And unless they're invis'd they'll eat through a bark bark star as well.

I've been mulling R'Varnas recently, myself, and I keep trying to convince myself they're worthwhile. 260 point buys you a whole lot of high-strength, medium AP shooting in a Tau army, so that's not the easiest task. Notably, 260 is about 1.5 HBC Riptides. Most deathstars that I can think of are composed of things that''ll take 2 hits from the blasts. 4 models is a reasonable (if not slightly generous) amount to assume a large blast hits, so you'd get 16 hits from your R'Varna. That's slightly less than the same points' worth of Broadsides and just more than nova-charged HBC Riptides. Against clustered artillery, you'll be dropping wounds like crazy, and even though they still get their 3+, you'll take them out quickly. In short, R'Varnas are quite a lot worse than the alternatives if you're not shooting things that take advantage of cluster fire but start getting awesome against large, dense targets.

The real question is whether or not the decreased firepower is worth the extra durability. I'd actually contend that an R'Varna vs 1.5 Riptides is roughly a wash in terms of toughness, but both are clearly superior to 4 Broadsides or even 2 Ghostkeels. Personally, I think I'd prefer more HBC Riptides most of the time since they're a bit more flexible and can hit flying things. Rending is also nice, even though they risk hurting themselves every time they fire. If you find yourself constantly facing setups like Brett Perkins's skyshield of mortar doom, though, the R'Varna is going to rip some heads off.

Few things are going to be as efficient as a Riptide Wing; but I sold all of my conventional Riptides because they drain the fun out of games for opponents. I know there's no room for mercy in GTs but I'm just exhausted of easy button's like the old buffmander or Riptide Wing. I want to try to perform decently in competitive environments while taking lists that are a little off kilter. For example, we can give Gladius a run for its MSU money with a double CAD list; one filled with Breachers in fish; the other with solo suits. Or taking R'Varna; or trip y-tides. We have a strong, diverse book, (conventional) Riptides just seem boring to me.

 The Shrike wrote:
Jancoran, I have two Y'Vahras but haven't deployed them yet. Do you recommend Stims? They get so expensive so fast; especially running two. They start to push other things out of the list. I feel like they are too fragile to be the main damage dealers, but if I fit a Stormsurge and marker support in I have very little left and have to get decent obsec. Does an ideal Y'Vahra list bypass a Stormsurge and try to lean in to the concept of no markers? I could go double Y'Vahra and run an OSC with it...Interested to hear everyone's thoughts.

Something like this?

Ethereal

Monat: 2x Flamers
Monat: 2x Flamers
Monat: 2x Flamers

5x Breachers, Fish
5x Breachers, Fish
5x Breachers, Fish
10x Kroot
10x Kroot
10x Kroot

Y'Vahra: Stims
Y'Vahra: Stims

OSC

3x Ghostkeels: 3x CIR, 3x TL Fusion, 2x Target Lock, 1x EWO

3x Stealths
3x Stealths


1846

I fought this and it was pretty good. It was the Riptide Wing, of course and three of those Yvarah. He was playing his Commander incorrectly, allowing his "Forge World" drones to benefit from his Drone Controller, which they cannot. this actually impacted our game so no telling what might have happeend had he not. But in any event the basic idea is sound. Less models to move in a tournament setting is also generally better for making sure you get to the end of the game.

Has anyone bothered to run a troop-heavy list before? I'm thinking of essentially spamming Fire Warriors in a Hunter Contingent so they get 12" supporting fire and (usually) an extra BS. The concept list I've got going also runs a VSG (switch to Aegis line?) and a CAD for an Ethereal. Those FW turn into quite a bargain at 9pts apiece. There's an IA Riotide and a blastcannon Surge in there for tougher targets that s5 spam won't stop and a unit of sniper Kroot for the odd grounded Demon Prince, Hive Tyrant, or Magnus.

I worry that there's not a lot of high-strength available to punch through vehicles, so BC may be a tough match. Deathstars are always a problem, but taking 50 s5 overwatch shots, probably with some marker support, is enough to give just about any unit pause. There's also a Sisters of Silence unit available for debuffing and some minor counter-charge ability. Whatcha think? I'm still working on a list, but I'll edit one in as soon as I Brainstorm a little further.

edit: Here we go:

Hunter Contingent
Hunter Cadre
Commander - dc, tl, 2 missile pods, iridium, 2 marker drones - 162
5x10 FW - 450
10 Kroot - snipers - 70
Riptide - IA, SMS, EWO - 190
Piranha - 40
Stormsurge - blastcannon, VT, shield gen, Burst cannon, EWO - 440

Drone Net
5 Marker Drones - 70

FSE CAD
Ethereal - 50
2 Crisis Suits - 3 flamers total, BKR - 61
2x2 Tetras - 140
VSG - 3 shields - 100

Null Maidens
5 sisters of silence - 75

1848 in total.

Generally speaking, the FW and supporting cast will deploy centrally and hug the VSG, while the Riptide and Stormsurge will gun down priority targets and push/refuse a flank. The flamer suits, as always, are just objective grabbers. Kroot can either move forward for extra pressure or sit with the infantry wall for some anti-MC support, as above. Even though there's a whole lot of protection for a Stormsurge to anchor, I felt like the blastcannon was the wiser choice for this list to to the relative paucity of high-strength firepower to neutralize tough targets. It's a fairly static army, but pushing the middle with so much S5 shooting should allow reasonable board control.

I think the only time I ever felt good about massed Firewarriors was them taken in tandem with the Tau Line/Gunrig, etc... It at no point felt very competitive, but they felt like a solid inclusion in a list like that.

I'm normally one to buck common strategy when it becomes considered "mandatory", but I feel like the FSE solo-Crisis troops really are an instance of the "right" choice. We just have so many incredible things to spend points on, that I feel like cutting "pretty great" things down to the bone.

I have experimented with Troop heavy lists but I think you have to use a CAD; ObSec is too important. Something like this:

MSU

Tau Empire CAD (1130)

Ethereal-50

5x5 Breachers, Fish w SMS-675

Y'Vahra: Stims-265

Tetra
Tetra

FSE CAD

Commander: Iridium Suit, 2 Fusion Blasters- 140

6x1 Crisis: 2 double missile, 2 double plasma, 2 double fusion, BKR- 318

Tetra
Tetra
Tetra

Piranha Firestream Wing- 224

1x1 Targetting Piranha, 2 Seekers

3x1Piranhas, 6 Seekers

Total: 1847

I'd worry that the above list would see the Y'vahra, rightly, singled-out as a threat, and killed... while the rest of the list has absolutely no punch vs. anything particularly tough. As Milkman is fond of saying, a competitive Tau list without a Stormsurge is already missing the tools to deal with some of the most common threats to a Tau army. I HATE the notion of an "auto-include", but if there is one... its probably Stormsurge, at this particular juncture in competitive 40k.

I've had a lot of experience with Breacher lists and am confident saying that they're at least in the competitive mix. Breachers are massively underrated, in my opinion. You have to build around them to a large extent, but you'll reap the rewards of doing so.

Fire warriors are another story. They don't do anything unique like Breachers do, but the basic formations benefit them quite a lot. Extended range supporting fire and an extra BS are a huge deal for your cheap piddling basic troopers. Running a bunch of FW certainly isn't as sexy (or easy) as taking a Riptide, but you also get 20 dudes for the same cost. If you can bring their durability up some, it'll help level the field a lot. It's probably better to just roll with a Riptide Wing like everyone else, but it's worth giving other stuff a shot from time to time. I've never heard of anyone seriously trying to make Tau troops work at all, and as I mentioned, I've rolled with Breacher lists pretty effectively...even though I agree with you.

Bringing multiple units to the table puts you at risk for getting piecemealed, but it also gives you more board presence. You do get more raw firepower, though, and may gain a bit of an advantage in capturing objectives. That much additional board presence can really work in your favor. Don't underestimate the ability to run then shoot. Your FW blob can scoot across the board reasonably quickly that way, and you'll be able to get within 15" for massive kill age or out of threat range quite a lot more easily with that extra d6" movement every turn. The more I think about it, the more excited I am to give it a shot. I don't think I'll blow any minds, but it seems like it could be very strong with the right attention to movement and spacing and whatnot.

MilkmanAl wrote:
Has anyone bothered to run a troop-heavy list before?.

The last two tournaments I won with Tau this last year were with this list, which easily could feature a third unit a Firewarriors and another Cadre Fireblade (But after playing it I wanted more markerlights and changed it to Sniper Drones). Dont know if it would be considered "troop heavy" but the Fire Warriors certainly shined in it This was before the Grenade nerf so I need to change it a bit.

Total Roster Cost: 2000

: Combined Arms Detachment

1 Tidewall Gunfort, 0 pts
1 Tidewall Gunrig,
1 Tidewall Gunrig,
1 Tidewall Gunrig,


8 Fire Warriors,(base cost + EMP Grenades )


8 Fire Warriors,(base cost + EMP Grenades )

6 MV7 Marker Drones,


3 Firesight Marksman,
9 MV71 Sniper Drone,


1 KV128 Stormsurge, 440 pts Twin-linked Airbursting Fragmentation Projector ) + Early Warning Override + Velocity Tracker + Shield Generator

1 Cadre Fireblade, 60 pts

1 Riptide Shas'vre, 190 pts = Ion Accelerator ) + Early Warning Override

1 Riptide Shas'vre, 190 pts = Ion Accelerator ) + Early Warning Override

: Farsight Combined Arms Detachment
1 Commander (HQ) [Tau], 178 pts + Talisman of Arthas Moloch + Onager Gauntlet + Command and Control Node + XV8-02 Crisis 'Iridium' Battlesuit + Drone Controller + Stimulant Injector
1 MV7 Marker Drone [Tau],
1 MV7 Marker Drone [Tau],

1 Cadre Fireblade (HQ) [Tau], 60pts

1 Crisis Shas'ui [Tau], 23 pts Bonding Knife Ritual )


1 Crisis Shas'ui [Tau], 23 pts Bonding Knife Ritual )


1 Crisis Shas'ui [Tau], 23 pts Bonding Knife Ritual )