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Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

nkelsch wrote:
How many personal freedoms would need to be stripped from the ill or disabled to 'protect' society from them? Nevermind the forced incarceration of anyone on a drug with possible 'suicidal thoughts' as a side effect.


I for one welcome our new "We're going to take your rights away on the off chance you might hurt someone" Overlords. Obviously, all people should be confined to their home at all time. No wait... if we leave people unattended at home who knows what might happen. So we'll need to put cameras in every room in America. That way the government can always watch to make sure you aren't hurting anyone or anything. And we'll need cameras in the camera rooms to so that we can protect the people watching the cameras from themselves too. But the government is run by people and they could hurt people so obviously we need to create a super machine to run the government for us. That way there's no chance anyone could ever hurt anyone. Actually we'll just make this simple and put a Nanny Robot in every home and all the people will wear straight jackets tied to their beds and feed by IV.

Nooooo way for anyone to get hurt I for one welcome our new Robot Overlords

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/26 17:57:08


   
Made in us
Androgynous Daemon Prince of Slaanesh





Norwalk, Connecticut

My view is if they have proof there was alcohol in her system and she was intoxicated? String her up.

If she suffered from a diabetic coma and this happened? It was a tragedy, and nothing can do her more harm than the knowledge of the damage she caused. Shouldn't be a sentence.

Attempted suicide by pills and driving into this situation? Psychiatric ward.

Death penalty only requested if she made a conscious choice to drink and drive (into a crowd).

Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.

Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.


Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind.  
   
Made in fr
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





 Peter Wiggin wrote:
 LethalShade wrote:
 Peter Wiggin wrote:
 Orlanth wrote:
 Peter Wiggin wrote:
Death penalty please.


Prove it was deliberate then maybe.


I don't care about intention, only outcomes.


Yay, let's execute a bunch of people without even trying to understand why they did what they did !

Sigh.


Let me repeat, I do NOT care about "why." I care about outcomes.

If you plow your car into a crowd, kill 4 people & then send another 44 to the hospital your ass needs to be removed from society permanently. I view life-long incarceration as torture and inhumane, ergo I believe in a more aggressive application of the death penalty.

Like I said, if this were a drunk person with a gun instead of a drunk person with a car...



And what about diabetic people ? Epileptic people ? My... Uh... *forgot the english word* godfather (?) once lost consciousness for two whole minutes while driving, and woke up in the middle of a field.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/26 19:09:08


Scientia potentia est.

In girum imus nocte ecce et consumimur igni.
 
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council






do you mean Alzheimers?

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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






New Orleans, LA

Clearly, according to some, he's the worst thing ever.

Also, since that episode, did he continue driving?

I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like my uncle. Not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car.

DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
 
   
Made in fr
Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





 hotsauceman1 wrote:
do you mean Alzheimers?


Nope, he had an absent seizure.

He got treatment for that, and I think he's still driving. I don't see him often anyway.

Scientia potentia est.

In girum imus nocte ecce et consumimur igni.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

More info on the mental health suspicion:

http://kfor.com/2015/10/26/i-didnt-know-where-else-to-turn-father-talks-about-osu-homecoming-crash-suspects-past/

“There was just some things that she said in the past and some, just recently, she had a mental hospital she went to in Wagoner at one time. They had her for a couple of weeks and they released her and there’s really nothing else they could do for her. So I took her to another place when she got out of there and basically the same thing. She was feeling fine and, you know, at the point she was 21, so I’d done all I could do as a father. I didn’t know where else to turn and what to do,” he said.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




 LethalShade wrote:
 Peter Wiggin wrote:
 LethalShade wrote:
 Peter Wiggin wrote:
 Orlanth wrote:
 Peter Wiggin wrote:
Death penalty please.


Prove it was deliberate then maybe.


I don't care about intention, only outcomes.


Yay, let's execute a bunch of people without even trying to understand why they did what they did !

Sigh.


Let me repeat, I do NOT care about "why." I care about outcomes.

If you plow your car into a crowd, kill 4 people & then send another 44 to the hospital your ass needs to be removed from society permanently. I view life-long incarceration as torture and inhumane, ergo I believe in a more aggressive application of the death penalty.

Like I said, if this were a drunk person with a gun instead of a drunk person with a car...



And what about diabetic people ? Epileptic people ? My... Uh... *forgot the english word* godfather (?) once lost consciousness for two whole minutes while driving, and woke up in the middle of a field.


Holy crap, I'll bet he was scared as hell. What happened after he woke up?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 d-usa wrote:
More info on the mental health suspicion:

http://kfor.com/2015/10/26/i-didnt-know-where-else-to-turn-father-talks-about-osu-homecoming-crash-suspects-past/

“There was just some things that she said in the past and some, just recently, she had a mental hospital she went to in Wagoner at one time. They had her for a couple of weeks and they released her and there’s really nothing else they could do for her. So I took her to another place when she got out of there and basically the same thing. She was feeling fine and, you know, at the point she was 21, so I’d done all I could do as a father. I didn’t know where else to turn and what to do,” he said.


I wonder if this a case where she didn't take medication.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/26 23:19:27


 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






nkelsch wrote:
Such an attitude basically would criminalize any health condition. "you have high blood sugar? you can't drive a vehicle legally now because you could potentially be a risk."


And that's exactly how it should be. If you can't safely drive a car then you shouldn't be allowed to. If you have high blood sugar (or whatever other condition you want to consider) and can demonstrate to a doctor that the problem is under control and does not present a safety risk then you can get a license with conditions attached (continuing treatment, etc). That's exactly what I have to go through to fly a tiny single-engine plane, so why should the operator of a vehicle that is much more likely to hurt someone be treated any differently? The only reason why we ignore blatant safety issues like this is that we, as a culture, seem to have decided that god has granted everyone the right to drive a car and that right can only be taken away under the most extreme circumstances.

And no, it doesn't criminalize any health condition. It criminalizes driving a car with them. Nobody is going to be thrown in jail merely for having a condition that would prevent them from driving safely.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




I agree with Perigrine on this one. If someone has a condition that makes them a danger on the road, and it can't or isn't being controlled, that person should not be driving. Any accidents they cause should be criminally prosecuted.
   
Made in us
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard




Catskills in NYS

I'm pretty sure they all are, it's just you get hit with a manslaughter charge instead of murder.

Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

Relapse wrote:
I agree with Perigrine on this one. If someone has a condition that makes them a danger on the road, and it can't or isn't being controlled, that person should not be driving. Any accidents they cause should be criminally prosecuted.


It's a nice sendiment, but than we run into the reality that the US is a car culture with crap transportation options for people who don't have cars and you are pretty much condemning people to poverty.

I doubt that communities will ever be willing to make the investment required to fix that problem on either front: fix our healthcare system where conditions are more easily mitigated or fix communities so that not having a car doesn't become an instant economic hardship.
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 d-usa wrote:
It's a nice sendiment, but than we run into the reality that the US is a car culture with crap transportation options for people who don't have cars and you are pretty much condemning people to poverty.

I doubt that communities will ever be willing to make the investment required to fix that problem on either front: fix our healthcare system where conditions are more easily mitigated or fix communities so that not having a car doesn't become an instant economic hardship.


The problem is that this is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If we allow ourselves to fall back on the idea that everyone has a right to drive as an excuse for not fixing our car-dependent society then we're never going to do anything about the problem. The best thing for society would be for 90% of drivers to permanently lose their licenses, and for the government to face mass rioting if they don't fix our public transportation infrastructure.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




 d-usa wrote:
Relapse wrote:
I agree with Perigrine on this one. If someone has a condition that makes them a danger on the road, and it can't or isn't being controlled, that person should not be driving. Any accidents they cause should be criminally prosecuted.


It's a nice sendiment, but than we run into the reality that the US is a car culture with crap transportation options for people who don't have cars and you are pretty much condemning people to poverty.

I doubt that communities will ever be willing to make the investment required to fix that problem on either front: fix our healthcare system where conditions are more easily mitigated or fix communities so that not having a car doesn't become an instant economic hardship.


Not an easy fix situation, I agree.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

@Peregrine

Are you willing to hand over 10% of your paycheck for the rest off eternity? Is the rioting mob?

The world would also be a better place if 90% of the people would be taken off the internet, but that's not happening either.

We are at the point where what we have is what we accept: accidents from medical conditions are much lower than drunk driving or even distracted driving. I'm willing to bet that more people are hurt by people changing their radio station or their play list or hitting the skip button on pandora than by people having diabetes. At this point it seems society has decided that the current system is working.

In Oklahoma you can lose your license for seizures I think, but I'm not exactly sure about the process. If you are diabetic they place a restriction on your license showing that you are required to always have food in reach while driving and an officer can write you a ticket if you do. For the rest of the people that have a wreck and kill someone because they have a stroke due to untreated high blood pressure we have decided that the court system will sort that out.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/27 00:15:50


 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 d-usa wrote:
Are you willing to hand over 10% of your paycheck for the rest off eternity? Is the rioting mob?


Are you seriously suggesting that better bus/rail/whatever systems would cost 10% of my paycheck, after accounting for the fact that my car-related expenses would be slashed to almost nothing, if not eliminated entirely?

The world would also be a better place if 90% of the people would be taken off the internet, but that's not happening either.


Having undesirable people on the internet doesn't get people killed. Having unsafe drivers does.

We are at the point where what we have is what we accept: accidents from medical conditions are much lower than drunk driving or even distracted driving. I'm willing to bet that more people are hurt by people changing their radio station or their play list or hitting the skip button on pandora than by people having diabetes.


Why the false dilemma fallacy? It's entirely possible to support efforts to stop drunk driving AND to stop who can't drive safely for medical reasons.

And, again, this isn't just a hypothetical question, it's FAA policy for pilots (even pilots of small planes which are much less likely to hurt anyone than an average car). We didn't just say "well, a lot of crashes are pilot error, so it's not worth worrying about medical issues", we imposed strict medical requirements and don't let people fly if they can't prove that they are healthy enough to do it safely. The only reason we let people take much greater risks by driving a car is that we, as a society, refuse to admit that we have a problem.


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Powerful Pegasus Knight





Omaha

I call for a car ban, or heavier restrictions on acquiring a drivers license.

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal, it is the courage to continue that counts."  
   
Made in nz
Heroic Senior Officer




New Zealand

In NZ we have heaps of laws around who can and cannot drive. Epilepsy rules out your ability to drive for example, as does having site deemed too poor for driving and I am sure there are more.

I thought it was normal for countries to restrict driving licenses from people in these conditions? Otherwise you could have drivers getting seizures on the high way or people with Parkinsons attempting to drive straight without jerking into traffic etc...

Of course since these people cannot get a license they cannot drive, so if they drive and get caught they are punished etc.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

Or we, as a society, realize that unless you live in a small Alaskan fishing village you probably don't "need" a pilots license to get to work or buy groceries.

I'm not saying that making a city like Oklahoma City walkable and building an actual usable public transport system is a bad idea. It would be awesome and it would be nice if people wouldn't have to rely on a vehicle for everything. I'm totally behind that idea and I voted for our street car and I'm always pushing for light rail.

I'm just realistic about what's happening in the US and that the majority of voters think that public transportation is a socialist handout and that only the drunks and lazy will use it because good citizens will have jobs and own cars and won't need public transit.

Don't confuse "I don't think it's realistic" with "I think it's stupid".
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 d-usa wrote:
Or we, as a society, realize that unless you live in a small Alaskan fishing village you probably don't "need" a pilots license to get to work or buy groceries.


You don't need a car for that, it just makes it a lot more convenient. You can take a bus/taxi/etc, or even walk. And in places where that's not an option it's only that way because we as a society refuse to acknowledge that we have a problem.

I'm just realistic about what's happening in the US and that the majority of voters think that public transportation is a socialist handout and that only the drunks and lazy will use it because good citizens will have jobs and own cars and won't need public transit.


Thus the "90% lose their license" comment. If only a few poor people lose their licenses then there's no incentive to change. But if getting a driver's license has the same level of requirements as getting a pilot's license ($15k in training costs and a very difficult practical test before you get your license, strict medical requirements with annual renewals, etc) there would actually be an impact on wealthier people that they couldn't ignore. And any government that ignores the needs of 90% of its citizens is quickly going to find itself out of power.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council






 Peregrine wrote:
 d-usa wrote:
Or we, as a society, realize that unless you live in a small Alaskan fishing village you probably don't "need" a pilots license to get to work or buy groceries.


You don't need a car for that, it just makes it a lot more convenient. You can take a bus/taxi/etc, or even walk. And in places where that's not an option it's only that way because we as a society refuse to acknowledge that we have a problem.
.

Your serious? You dont need a car to do groceries? Let me tell you, it is near impossible to get any meaningful amount of groceries without a car. You wanna take 5 or 6 large bags on the bus(Maybe with like 2 kids cause dads off at the mine or something)
Face it. a car is needed in america, to get a job, to shop. to live life.

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Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

 Swastakowey wrote:
In NZ we have heaps of laws around who can and cannot drive. Epilepsy rules out your ability to drive for example, as does having site deemed too poor for driving and I am sure there are more.

I thought it was normal for countries to restrict driving licenses from people in these conditions? Otherwise you could have drivers getting seizures on the high way or people with Parkinsons attempting to drive straight without jerking into traffic etc...

Of course since these people cannot get a license they cannot drive, so if they drive and get caught they are punished etc.


We have similar laws.

However its a system where you are presumed to be free of defects till proven otherwise. Only thing you get physically tested on is your sight at the DMV office. They don't do epilepsy tests or see if you have a chronic condition.

But if your doctor diagnoses you with a condition that disqualifies you from driving I believe they are required to report it to the DMV.

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Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.

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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka




Some of the medical requirements for getting a driver's liscence:

http://dmv.dc.gov/service/medical-requirements
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

Our list from Oklahoma:

http://www.ok.gov/odc/documents/ok-guidelines.pdf
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




I do disagree on needing a car for groceries. I grew walking with my mom to get groceries. Sometimes as often as every other night. It's amazing what your capable of accomplishing when you don't have a choice.

I know several people without cars. Instead of whining they get stuff done. About and overcome.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/27 01:52:14


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






They are reporting that she deliberately drove around a barricades so it likely rules out that she was passed out at the time. Unless she was magically "sleep-steering".

If it was intentional, as it appears to be I hope they upgrade the charges to 1st degree for the 4 fatalities and attempted murder on the other injuries.


http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/prosecutor-driver-in-parade-crash-went-around-barricade/ar-BBmoHa8

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/27 01:51:30


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Leerstetten, Germany

yellowfever wrote:
I do disagree on needing a car for groceries. I grew walking with my mom to get groceries. Sometimes as often as every other night. It's amazing what your capable of accomplishing when you don't have a choice.

I know several people without cars. Instead of whining they get stuff done. About and overcome.


My closest grocery store is 5 miles from my house, so a 10 mile round trip if I was walking. That's also the closest bus stop as well.
   
Made in us
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard




Catskills in NYS

5 minute? I have a 15 minute drive to my nearest. Or 30 to the nearest real one that has any selection. .

Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
Made in nz
Heroic Senior Officer




New Zealand

Owning a bike helps big time for a lot of car less issues. But if you cannot drive it is likely you should also not be biking.

Remember it is not societies fault if someone is a danger on the roads nor is it the persons fault (usually) due to disability. It's one of those situations where the person simply has to live a harder life to prevent others from becoming a casualty. If you value the right for all to drive over the life of those who have to share those roads then I think you need to consider the implications.

For example we have someone at our wargames club with epilepsy. Great guy. He went to get some sushi the other night and had a seizure on the way. Had he legally been allowed to drive and he drove to get sushi he likely would have crashed on his way there. Not only putting himself at harm but also anybody nearby. He and all of us are glad he is not allowed to drive, if he could then there is a strong possibility he would have caused a lot of harm at least once in his life.

Unfortunate but if you cannot see the obvious reasons for barring someone from driving due to disabilities or illness then you are clearly not thinking about the consequences.

Lets put it this way, if you could have a seizure at any second would you willingly drive around like you do today?
   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

 stanman wrote:
They are reporting that she deliberately drove around a barricades so it likely rules out that she was passed out at the time.


Still too early to call it but that would definitely seem to indicate some degree of premeditation.

Your article also has a lot of quotes indicating mental issues, but so far I'm kind of writing them off since they all seem to be coming from her family or lawyer, who obviously have a vested interest in pushing that angle. Oklahoma has the death penalty, after all.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/27 02:25:35


 
   
 
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