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What are CSM good at?

Getting Jancoran and jreily89 and other elder posters to bicker like grumpy old neck beards or super annoying persons.

This is why dakkadakka cant have nice things!

Naw, its GWs fault that we have such huge gaps in codex power. Every game has whiners sure, but it takes a particularly horrible balance in a game to illicit constant nerdrage 24/7

40k has more whiners than most

Get on with that Vassal game boys!

 MWHistorian wrote:

I think the main problem, Jancoran, is that you haven't shown how a CSM is equal in power to Eldar, C:SM and Necrons.

If they aren't on an even level, then, given that players are equal skill, the Eldear, marines and Necrons should win more often.
Do you deny this?
If you do, then I think that what you're saying is that power levels of different codexes aren't that big of a factor in determining the winner.
Is that closer to what you're saying?

I don't think its a main problem because I never made the claim. And yes that more or less summarizes my point. And equal skill is as much a myth as equal codex's so unfortunately I don't kow that its possible to test that theory.

I state that the codex only needs to allow you to compete.

To explain: They will never actually all be "equal" in every place. It's literally impossible. Hoping for that isn't even a real expectation. It doesnt matter who publishes it nor how long they listen to us, it won't happen if you want variety. 40K offers more variety than any game of its kind. So given that we have an appetite for variety, we won't ever see "even" codex's like you see in Flames of War for example which is far more balanced by its far lesser levels of differentiation between units.

Consider that in all matchups, there is going to be a strategy that will allow you to compete. The strategy is the thing. You need tools for that strategy. It is certainly true that codex's allow for varying numbers of builds that allow for that particular strategy. But its true that they do allow it. So it is my opinion that the inflexibility of relearning or adjusting the strategy to fit the tools at hand is the bigger problem. I am not saying that it wouldn't be nice if more strategies were supported by whatever codex you prefer. Of course it would. However, variety demands that not every strategy be as compatible with every codex and you must learn to win a different way when the codex changes.

If the Codex were incapable of allowing for success, there would be none. It's that simple. So consequently the real challenge for a General is to form strategies that the codex will allow. And if that style of play doesn't suit you, own it. But do not claim that the Codex owes it to you to play its wars in a way it isnt really designed for. Your wish that it did will persist whether you attempt a second solution or not. So attempt a second solution until it works. The next codex is as likely to change mine as anyones and i am strategically flexible enough to adapt. You can be too.

The people who rely on the killing power of a given unit to win will win some games simply because of the relative difference between opposing units when the losing end of that equation doesn't do a good job of recognizing and compensating as i did with my Raptors. That's the thing that most here on Dakkadakka primarily focus in on is that difference in opposing strengths yet never going deep to consider what could be done about it. To hear them tell it, nothing.

Yet here i am, with two different lists, at two different stores, both from supposedly weaker codex's... and yet undefeated.

What does it tell the observer? It tells him that the codex supported my strategy. It tells one that my strategy is compatible with the tool bag of this codex. Both Codex's really.

So a lot of moving parts: Strategy before you get to the table, tactics during the game and ability to adjust to good and bd dice rolls as the game goes on or unexpected enemy actions. The terrain, the timing, the mission... Its all different every time and the Chaos Space Marine codex will allow you to compete. the codex itself doesn't compete. You do.

So i find myself unsympathetic to the thought that Chaos cant compete.


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 godardc wrote:
I didn't read all the 10 pages, but, I think, what Jancoran try to explain isn't that Chaos is "top-tier" ,"godlike" "good" or whatever, but just, even if it is a bit more difficult than with others, still able to win tournaments.
So it's not complete trash/garbage, as one can do good things wiht this codex.
Contrary of what people seems to say (like it's totaly unplayable).

Bingo

None of the codexes, minus legion of the damned, is outright unplayable. And nobody here is staying that all codexes need to be perfect in all modes of play. I don't expect CSM to be the greatest at tarpitting with weak units, nor do I think it should have the greatest tanks that surpass previous wave serpant BS. What I DO expect is for it to support its official Lore factions in the game, that is what is important to me personally. Can alpha legion use cultists as more then a tax? Not really. Can iron warriors use non-possessed vehicles to shell a base properly? No. Can word Bearers have psyker priests? No. Can arhiman, master of divination and foreseeing, actually use divination powers? No.

There is a massive issue with the book, in that it does not represent chaos as a whole accurately, nor a big chunk of its factions as more then "aligned to X god". Chaos daemons does it right, space marines does too. I think the major thing here is that you are coming with the assumption that the book is as-is, and shouldn't be changed if You Personally don't see a problem with it in your list. That's fine, but that's merely an opinion.. And an unpopular one at that. But when a book actively scares people from the hobby (which has happened on 3 separate occasions over here) where their codexes were just so busted that they could not make a truly fluffy army without going Unbound and ignoring ally rules, then it becomes a Serious problem

 Jancoran wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

I think the main problem, Jancoran, is that you haven't shown how a CSM is equal in power to Eldar, C:SM and Necrons.

If they aren't on an even level, then, given that players are equal skill, the Eldear, marines and Necrons should win more often.
Do you deny this?
If you do, then I think that what you're saying is that power levels of different codexes aren't that big of a factor in determining the winner.
Is that closer to what you're saying?

I don't think its a main problem because I never made the claim. And yes that more or less summarizes my point. And equal skill is as much a myth as equal codex's so unfortunately I don't kow that its possible to test that theory.

Well, it's simple.
You take a look at tournament representation at the larger more competitive events and use a sliding scale.
How many winning armies are from faction X?
How many top ten armies are from faction X?
How many armies from that faction show up to a tournament at all from faction X?
You take them all, and each number alone tells you something.
Then you combine the numbers, again, using math, and determine the median, mean, mode, and standard deviation of placement within tournaments.
After that, you look at the individual matchups and data and see how the armies compare.
Generally, this is how meta's are formed by the more competitive players in most games.

If you do this, you'll see the dexes that people think are weak are generally on the bottom of this scale, while armies that people think are good are at the top of the sliding scale. Win % works, but not as well since mirror matches can fudge the numbers and removing them is non trivial.

 Jancoran wrote:

I state that the codex only needs to allow you to compete.

Well, then argument over. Any list from any army in the game can compete. It's a dice game, my opponent can roll all 1's and I can roll all 6's and I'll pretty much win against everything no matter the codex taken.
How bad are your chances with certain dexes? Outside of nurgle, against the power dexes, it's 90-10 most likely. With nurgle, it's probably 80/85-20/15. That's an immensely disfavorable matchup.

 Jancoran wrote:

To explain: They will never actually all be "equal" in every place. It's literally impossible. Hoping for that isn't even a real expectation. It doesnt matter who publishes it nor how long they listen to us, it won't happen if you want variety. 40K offers more variety than any game of its kind. So given that we have an appetite for variety, we won't ever see "even" codex's like you see in Flames of War for example which is far more balanced by its far lesser levels of differentiation between units.

I disagree about variety. I think WMH has more actual variety, since you see way more varied lists at tournaments then you do in 40k, since the lists in 40k seem to be pretty similar within the faction. Its very rare you see something new and see it being good, while in WMH new tech is coming out all the time.
WMH is also more balanced than 40k, though it certainly has problems.

 Jancoran wrote:

Consider that in all matchups, there is going to be a strategy that will allow you to compete. The strategy is the thing. You need tools for that strategy. It is certainly true that codex's allow for varying numbers of builds that allow for that particular strategy. But its true that they do allow it. So it is my opinion that the inflexibility of relearning or adjusting the strategy to fit the tools at hand is the bigger problem. I am not saying that it wouldn't be nice if more strategies were supported by whatever codex you prefer. Of course it would. However, variety demands that not every strategy be as compatible with every codex and you must learn to win a different way when the codex changes.

I'll admit, if 40k allowed sideboards and multiple lists, this would help the balance in the game dramatically, since you'd be allowed to employ different strategies. I still think this would favor the better dexes, who tend to have a larger amount of better units in the first place, than the weaker dexes, but it wouldn't be the massive imbalance it is now.

 Jancoran wrote:

If the Codex were incapable of allowing for success, there would be none. It's that simple. So consequently the real challenge for a General is to form strategies that the codex will allow. And if that style of play doesn't suit you, own it. But do not claim that the Codex owes it to you to play its wars in a way it isnt really designed for. Your wish that it did will persist whether you attempt a second solution or not. So attempt a second solution until it works. The next codex is as likely to change mine as anyones and i am strategically flexible enough to adapt. You can be too.

The problem with this statement is that there are no large tournaments competitive tournaments where CSM are the main force and winning.
None that anyone has posted as of yet. You would think after 11 pages someone would have.
So, it follows that the codex is incapable (if you want, extremely improbable) of winning a tournament.

 Jancoran wrote:

The people who rely on the killing power of a given unit to win will win some games simply because of the relative difference between opposing units when the losing end of that equation doesn't do a good job of recognizing and compensating as i did with my Raptors. That's the thing that most here on Dakkadakka primarily focus in on is that difference in opposing strengths yet never going deep to consider what could be done about it. To hear them tell it, nothing.

No one is saying killing power alone is all that matters, that's a bit of a strawman.
Take the posts where we looked at your blob. It was judged on several factors

1) Melee power. What variety of targets can it kill in melee and how effectively does it do so? (Killing power, and here it did really well, only having issues with the very best units in the game)
2) Shooting Power. What variety of targets can it kill with shooting attacks and how effectively does it do so? (Here it did pretty poorly, as 4 lascannons at 600 points is pretty bad. The unit probably wants to run most of the time anyway)
3) Toughness. What kind of firepower wants to target this unit, and how common is it to see that firepower? How resistant is it to firepower? When do wounds caused start to stop the unit from doing its job? (Here it did pretty poorly, since it's weak to bolters and scat bikes).
4) Speed/Range. How quickly can this unit get to its effective range (in this case, melee) and how safe is it there? (Here it did poorly, since running stops the lascannons from working and with such a slow unit you need to run).

You yourself posted no ways to overcome the weaknesses of the blob. IG, as far as I can tell, don't have a way to speed up a unit (its biggest weakness) and hiding such a large blob that wants to reach melee is extremely difficult.
This isn't warmachine, where casters and solos come with a variety of buffs that can really polish a turd (like pdenny or pskarre).

 Jancoran wrote:

Yet here i am, with two different lists, at two different stores, both from supposedly weaker codex's... and yet undefeated.

Well, if you went up against Dread Mob with a hard counter in your list, and a genestealer cult from nids then color me unimpressed. Genestealers have been terrible for a long time now, and the walkers aren't very good (5 scat bikes will remove 1 a turn, given a 4++ save. WS has good odds too, firedragons can target the LoW. A good eldar list can remove 4-8 walkers a turn, necron can do the same, as can marines).

I think beyond one person no one is calling sisters weak. The exorcist alone has some of the best firepower available on a tank, especially against other tanks and GMC's. Sisters are a great army, just very monobuild. If you deviated heavily from the mono-build and won against Centstars and such, that would be impressive.

 Jancoran wrote:

What does it tell the observer? It tells him that the codex supported my strategy. It tells one that my strategy is compatible with the tool bag of this codex. Both Codex's really.

autumnlotus wrote:


There is a massive issue with the book, in that it does not represent chaos as a whole accurately,

I get that completely and I do indeed hope that improves. That has nothing to do with competitivenesss and yes: people have outright said it cannot compete, here on this thread, as their problem with it. And I have said that your objection is the valid one, not the competitive gripe which is what others are centering their point of view on..

 Jancoran wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:


Depends. The first time I went up against him in a 2v2, it was a Wraithknight, Jetbikes, Wave Serpent, and Wraithguard at 1000 points each player. Recently, he ran min Tau 2 Riptides Allies to his Jetbikes + Wraithknight shenanigans in a 1850 tournament.

Yup so that sounds pretty competitive. Very normal list. Wraithguard are one reason why I like my Mutilators and Obliterators so much. Congratz. You get to overwatch...one...Mutilator... hehehe. WHACK.

Well against that list the Wraith Knight and Riptide would probably drop turn one. I guess it depends on if he has a ton o bikes or just min maxed bikes. But I'd probably get both in turn one if i go first. Considerably longer battle plan if he goes first (as i would then be outflanking).

But yeah I have seen those lists and fought them. My Tau Empire list in particular was successful against TauDar. Pathfinders, one with Dark Strider, took one down last time I played while my Stubborn troops swamped the Riptide. It was the bikes that did most of the damage in my last game. they actually were the threat in that case.

He sounds like he likes his big toyz.

Nope, no Tau Empire list against him. I'm talking your best Night Lords list or SoB against his Eldar shenanigans, since you've claimed to win with CSM by being such a great general.


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 Filch wrote:
What are CSM good at?

Getting Jancoran and jreily89 and other elder posters to bicker like grumpy old neck beards or super annoying persons.

This is why dakkadakka cant have nice things!

Hey, I could be like some other users and complain about my codex in every thread.



Also, if you're gonna insult me passively, at least spell my name right. Come at me scrublord, I'm ripped.

Akiasura wrote:

If my opponents fielded the Dread Mob and genestealer cult I'd be very happy to run my CSM all day every day...

...The exorcist alone has some of the best firepower available on a tank, especially against other tanks and GMC's. Sisters are a great army, just very monobuild. If you deviated heavily from the mono-build and won against Centstars and such, that would be impressive.

You see Akiasura? You think that by minimizing my opponent you minimize my point. You don't. That tact is just such a weak response. My opponents are not the issue.

It says here you found me impressive. Good. I didn't bring a single Exorcist to defeat the Centstar, the War convocation nor the Castigator + Daemonkin. Not one. No Celestine. No Immolators. Ta Da!

You have not yet compelled me to give all my wins back. You also haven't compelled me to give future ones away. If you want your argument to stand, it has to actually survive contact with the enemy. Not on a forum. Mine has. Yours, clearly, doesn't because you now refuse to play your Alpha Legion and further refuse to learn anything from anyone doing well! You play Eldar now because with Eldar, being a strong codex, you hope to simply "Eldar someone off the table".

However it is you preferred to play your Alpha Legion isn't working and to make it work, you'd have to shift your strategy and list now. If you just can't be bothered to modify your strategy, well... that would be an Akiasura issue, not a codex issue. Have fun playing Biel-Tan. I play Eldar also and it's fun too. There's nothing wrong with it. Just dont give up on your Alpha Legion. Start experimenting. Dont worry about initial losses as you try new things and eventually it will develop into a list you can play. Or don't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:


Nope, no Tau Empire list against him. I'm talking your best Night Lords list or SoB against his Eldar shenanigans, since you've claimed to win with CSM by being such a great general.

I was referring to my Sisters of Battle! If going first, they would destroy the Wraith Knight and Riptide turn one. I expanded that to say that my super sneaky Tau Empire also did well against a similar list though it takes considerably longer.

 Jancoran wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

If my opponents fielded the Dread Mob and genestealer cult I'd be very happy to run my CSM all day every day...

...The exorcist alone has some of the best firepower available on a tank, especially against other tanks and GMC's. Sisters are a great army, just very monobuild. If you deviated heavily from the mono-build and won against Centstars and such, that would be impressive.

You see Akiasura? You think that by minimizing my opponent you minimize my point. You don't. That tact is just such a weak response. My opponents are not the issue.

Uh, the whole argument is that if your opponent plays one of the better dexes/builds, CSM struggle to compete to the point where they don't win at tournaments.
The opponent is literally all we are discussing. It's the entire point of the conversation.
If your opponents were not using the dexes and builds that are amazing (and Dread mob/ genestealer cult isn't amazing, it's very weak) then your victories don't matter as far as this conversation goes. It's not the discussion we have been having.

 Jancoran wrote:

It says here you found me impressive. Good. I didn't bring a single Exorcist to defeat the Centstar, the War convocation nor the Castigator + Daemonkin. Not one. No Celestine. No Immolators. Ta Da!

What was your list then?
There are a few units that you see spammed in sisters (immolators aren't one of them, btw, unless going for armor spam. Without exorcists I wouldn't take them either, though the two make a good pairing). Celestine isn't as good as she used to be (she was amazing in previous editions, now she doesn't stack up). Jacobus is good but you probably don't want him as a warlord, but his buffs and prayers can be solid.

 Jancoran wrote:

You have not yet compelled me to give all my wins back. You also haven't compelled me to give future ones away. If you want your argument to stand, it has to actually survive contact with the enemy. Not on a forum. Mine has. Yours, clearly, doesn't because you now refuse to play your Alpha Legion and further refuse to learn anything from anyone doing well! You play Eldar now because with Eldar, being a strong codex, you hope to simply "Eldar someone off the table".

First, I'm not telling you to give wins back. I'm not even sure what that means tbh.
Second, your CSM list has survived fights with lists no one is saying they would struggle against. Dread Mob is bad, genestealers is bad. It's really an uphill battle for the enemy, and that is saying something.
If your list survives contact with a good necron list, a good SM list, a good eldar list, and a good tau list, then I'll take a look at your strategies and lists in detail.

I play Biel-tan, I mainly use Striking scorpions and Warp Spiders with a small amount of Dire avengers and fire dragons in transports. I really doubt I'm Eldaring my opponents off the table with that list.
I use zero bikes, and no Wraith Knight. I don't use the Aspect Warrior Shrine since we normally don't use formations here, though when we do I take advantage of it. BS 5 on eldar units is no joke, especially the spiders or dragons.
I still do well against the other lists, including saim-hann (who does bring 20 bikes) and iyanden (where I see guard and Knights). Eldar are an amazing dex, and can compete with everyone with a variety of lists, though they have power builds.

The only thing I learned from your CSM games is that CSM can beat Dread Mob and Genestealers, some of the worst lists in the game. It doesn't really parallel over to necrons, tau, SM, and eldar that are very common in my meta. I certainly couldn't use the eye of night, since only eldar bring tanks in my meta, making it useless and way overpriced. Tau usually bring 1 tank, but it isn't very important and the lord w/eye is way more expensive then it is.

 Jancoran wrote:

However it is you preferred to play your Alpha Legion isn't working and to make it work, you'd have to shift your strategy and list now. If you just can't be bothered to modify your strategy, well... that would be an Akiasura issue, not a codex issue. Have fun playing Biel-Tan. I play Eldar also and it's fun too. There's nothing wrong with it. Just dont give up on your Alpha Legion. Start experimenting. Dont worry about initial losses as you try new things and eventually it will develop into a list you can play. Or don't.

It wasn't initial loses, it was pretty consistent losses. If we list swapped, I crushed my own list pretty handily, so I doubt it was me being a bad general. Usually losing 1-2 squads at most and then crushing the rest after the swap.

Not that it mattered, but my final list ended up not being very alpha legion at the end. SM felt like a better fit before the centurions were out, tbh, since sternguard feel like better chosen in everyway. I could ally in IG for cultists and they seemed like a better fit as well.
My list consisted of Nurgle Spawn, Nurgle DP/Mace, Nurgle bike squad with artifact flamer, 2 drakes, 2 small cultists to hold objectives, and some oblits. I have several fiends that I tried, they tended to die quickly. The maulerfiend wasn't so bad if I switched my army around to an armor spam, but the new bikes and necrons put a stop to that. The best I got with it was switching out the oblits for havoks with MoT on a skyshield and dropping termies to target rear armor of heavy tanks with meltas, but they still died to weight of fire or the really fast assaulting deathstars that are in the game now.

A lot of us used to play CSM. Nurgle CSM was probably one of the more popular lists locally in 5th edition around here, and none of us play it now. It just doesn't do well against the powerful lists.

Akiasura wrote:


Uh, the whole argument is that if your opponent plays one of the better dexes/builds, CSM struggle to compete to the point where they don't win at tournaments.
The opponent is literally all we are discussing. It's the entire point of the conversation.
If your opponents were not using the dexes and builds that are amazing (and Dread mob/ genestealer cult isn't amazing, it's very weak) then your victories don't matter as far as this conversation goes. It's not the discussion we have been having.
.

Not really true. Ive explained the kinds of lists I generally play. That i didnt play against one of them THAT day is immaterial and you are absolutely wrong about the Dread mob as all three of its opponents including me had a hard time dealing with it.

I'm not in the habit of losing on purpose. Or at all if it can be helped. So if it weren't working against the various Battle Companies, Decurions, Castigators, Khornate Daemonkin, FMC flying Circus's, as well as the Eldar wave spam, Wraith+Bike spam, Paladinstars White Scars Bike army with Castigator and so on... Would I keep doing it? No one wins every game. Certainly not against the likes of our Generals. But I don't feel "out of the game" or feel as if I never had the chance.

You are just barking up the wrong tree here. You really are. if you want to attack some "meta" (Man do i hate that word), this isn't the one. Just the variety alone of the armies I see is enough of difficulty factor because you just can't tailor (not that I would anyways, but I absolutely know some do it to me!). You have to be able to carry a list that can handle it all and that's not easy to do. make your list an Eldar killer? here comes a horde army. Wanna kill Hordes? Here comes the Paladinstar. think you're going to out 2+ the enemy? White Scars on bikes with Grav for days. You wanna' take the Decuron that never dies? Haemonculous Coven for the win. there's a counter for just about every darn thing around here so you have to think more globally.

And that has helpd me immensely so while it is more difficult it is also more rewarding.

Like i say: giving up is the surest path to defeat. So don't give up on your Alpha Legion. Just develop it further. think strategically instead of trying to overpower your opponent. It yields very interesting and flexible lists.

 Jancoran wrote:

Akiasura wrote:


Uh, the whole argument is that if your opponent plays one of the better dexes/builds, CSM struggle to compete to the point where they don't win at tournaments.
The opponent is literally all we are discussing. It's the entire point of the conversation.
If your opponents were not using the dexes and builds that are amazing (and Dread mob/ genestealer cult isn't amazing, it's very weak) then your victories don't matter as far as this conversation goes. It's not the discussion we have been having.
.

Not really true. Ive explained the kinds of lists I generally play. That i didnt play against one of them THAT day is immaterial and you are absolutely wrong about the Dread mob as all three of its opponents including me had a hard time dealing with it.

You are using this particular tournament and these battles with your CSM force as proof that CSM can compete in a competitive environment. If you want to say you face teleporting centstars and bike spam, that's fine. I'd suggest posting a battle report, because you haven't so far of these encounters. In fact, you called 20 bikes list tailoring when it was brought up against your IG blob, which suggests you don't consider it a common item (despite later posting a list with 15 yourself).
That and some of your other battle reports speak to your local players more than you think.

These lists (Dread Mob, Genestealers) don't generally exist in a competitive environment since they face an extremely uphill battle against the better dexes. If you have reports of your night lords list winning against the competitive lists I'd love to see them.
I don't need to read how to beat bad lists, it's quite easy.

If everyone struggled against Dread Mob I don't know what to tell you. It's bad. Try to find a tournament where the dread mob won if you don't believe me.
Or try to refute any of the points I made about the army and how it fares against the better lists rather than go "you're wrong".

 Jancoran wrote:

I'm not in the habit of losing on purpose. Or at all if it can be helped. So if it weren't working against the various Battle Companies, Decurions, Castigators, Khornate Daemonkin, FMC flying Circus's, as well as the Eldar wave spam, Wraith+Bike spam, Paladinstars White Scars Bike army with Castigator and so on... Would I keep doing it? No one wins every game. Certainly not against the likes of our Generals. But I don't feel "out of the game" or feel as if I never had the chance.

Sisters can compete against the better lists. You mainly seem to put your nurgle csm against the weaker lists, from the reports we've seen so far.
Do you have a report of your CSM list going against the decurions, centstars, or bikes? Because the last time we saw such a report, it involved one of your amazing generals suiciding a wraithknight by charging a unit that re-rolls to hit/ BS 3 overwatches with 4 lascannons after it had been wounded.
But yeah, amazing generals.

 Jancoran wrote:

You are just barking up the wrong tree here. You really are. if you want to attack some "meta" (Man do i hate that word), this isn't the one. Just the variety alone of the armies I see is enough of difficulty factor because you just can't tailor (not that I would anyways, but I absolutely know some do it to me!). You have to be able to carry a list that can handle it all and that's not easy to do. make your list an Eldar killer? here comes a horde army. Wanna kill Hordes? Here comes the Paladinstar. think you're going to out 2+ the enemy? White Scars on bikes with Grav for days. You wanna' take the Decuron that never dies? Haemonculous Coven for the win. there's a counter for just about every darn thing around here so you have to think more globally.

Generally lists that are good can take most of the opponents out there without being too badly disadvantaged.
A bike spam with wraith knight list can take down hordes, 2+ spam, and tanks. It does better against hordes, sure, but it still can do quite well against most lists.
Decurion also does quite well, since regular necron warriors can take on anything the wraiths cant. They are both incredibly tough, and it's rare to see anything that removes them without a substantial point investment.
A SM list with a solid bike squad, centstar, and drop pods does well against most opponents as well.

CSM, Orks, BA, DE (I don't think the Coven would beat decurion), and IG lack such lists, and it's why they don't do well. Sure you can build a list from some of these codexes that might take out 1 of the above lists (maybe) but you can't handle all of them and that is what you need to be prepared to do to win a tournament.

 Jancoran wrote:

And that has helpd me immensely so while it is more difficult it is also more rewarding.

Like i say: giving up is the surest path to defeat. So don't give up on your Alpha Legion. Just develop it further. think strategically instead of trying to overpower your opponent. It yields very interesting and flexible lists.

Tbh, your CSM list isn't that far off from my Alpha Legion list. Nurgle spam, we both tried oblits, you took mutilators, I took bikes over raptors (which, imo, bikes are better but the way you use raptors is fine. Raptors are still a good unit within the dex), we both take a few rhinos and use them to block LoS. I don't use the eye of night but it would fail in my meta since it only works on HPs, and nobody is really spamming tanks anymore in a competitive scene outside of 1-2 formations.

The difference is you are using your CSM against Dread Mobs and Genestealers, while I'm facing Saim-Hann and Ultramarines.
If you have battle reports where your CSM face saim-hann and centstars, I'd love to see it. I can't find one where the CSM win anywhere.

 Jancoran wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:


Nope, no Tau Empire list against him. I'm talking your best Night Lords list or SoB against his Eldar shenanigans, since you've claimed to win with CSM by being such a great general.

I was referring to my Sisters of Battle! If going first, they would destroy the Wraith Knight and Riptide turn one. I expanded that to say that my super sneaky Tau Empire also did well against a similar list though it takes considerably longer.

Ah my mistake. Pronouns still, I'd be interested to see you destroy a Wraithknight and Riptide Turn One.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:


Nope, no Tau Empire list against him. I'm talking your best Night Lords list or SoB against his Eldar shenanigans, since you've claimed to win with CSM by being such a great general.

I was referring to my Sisters of Battle! If going first, they would destroy the Wraith Knight and Riptide turn one. I expanded that to say that my super sneaky Tau Empire also did well against a similar list though it takes considerably longer.

Ah my mistake. Pronouns still, I'd be interested to see you destroy a Wraithknight and Riptide Turn One.

Yeah I don't see how that is possible without the exorcist tank. Sisters lack long range anti-mc firepower when you remove the exorcist.

Akiasura wrote:

In fact, you called 20 bikes list tailoring when it was brought up against your IG blob, which suggests...

...You mainly seem to put your nurgle csm against the weaker lists, from the reports we've seen so far.
Do you have a report of your CSM list going against the decurions, centstars, or bikes? Because the last time we saw such a report, it involved one of your amazing generals suiciding a wraithknight by charging a unit that re-rolls to hit/ BS 3 overwatches with 4 lascannons after it had been wounded.
But yeah, amazing generals.

CSM, Orks, BA, DE (I don't think the Coven would beat decurion),

If you have battle reports where your CSM face saim-hann and centstars, I'd love to see it. I can't find one where the CSM win anywhere.

Well... You're pretty much dead wrong about the Haemonculous Coven. I haven't had a game go pst 4 rounds in those matchups. I own a Coven list. Actually thats the same list that ws able to kill my IG blob. Friend of mine is borrowing it. Between the LD nerfs and their assault ability and its speed? Yeah. Just lance open the enemy transports and start butchering. Outflank the Talos to close the deal if the Necron doesnt make the approach too enticing.

You're entirely misquoting me, from a thread that was locked on list tailoring. Again. I suggest veering from that subject. However the CORRECT version of what was said is that someone can be on a forum and tell me Imperial Knights suck because: Wraithguard or that a blob can "easily" be taken out by {fill in perfect unit}. But unless you physically have that in your list...so what? And that ignores the other God knows how many points in the army dedicated to ending the "perfect answer" you've posited in your perfect forum army.

If you take 20 bikes in ONE unit, you get what you deserve though. You'll blitz some units, Tau style, with that. But damn.. I wouldn't do it. That is another whole thread so whatevs. Different strokes.

I beat a Decurion and a super stompy Forge World Tyranid force at the ITC tournament before this. I lost to a Nurgle Deamon list because essentially I just forgot to move a Rhino. In two different turns. ouch, What a way to lose! So that was a bummer, my failing, not the lists failing. But the list performed exactly as it should otherwise. The Decurion was not difficult. Dirge Casters stopped his Overwatch and I spread out like a MOFO to avoid the worst of his enormous blasty weapons from the Tesseract Vault and stayed in combat otherwise to avoid it. Worked well. I morale checked him off the board pretty much. Never killed the Vault. Those things are damn tough and they put out a lot o firepower though.

The Tyranids had this ENORMOUSLY large AP 3 Flamer template (again i despise Forge World so i cant even tell you what it was) on a creature that could move really fast and fire it as torrent! He had these insane Hammer of Wrath rules where his guys do like D3 AP 2 Hammers of Wrath hits (wrecked 9 Raptors just with the Hammers of Wrath in one charge before he swung a damn thing). Rock Crushers or some such.
Anyways, I basically ran from him turn one to avoid that gross template, then swung to the opposing sides and finally engaged. My Heldrake was a boss in that game. He vector struck one of the Hive Tyrant dead at the end, which was pretty sweet, plus weakened stuff all game long. I think he had three of those flying terrors in the sky to start. I have no anti-air. So that was fun. Did beat him anyways though.

I mean we can go on and on. I do actually have batreps on my Blog (including video ones), which is free to view (and its in my signature below). You can kind of see the evolutions the list went through as I developed it., starting last year i think. It had a Defiler originally. Tried a Land Raider. Tried a number of things before finally getting it to this form. I think it now has come to kind of its final mature form for this codex. You can jiggle it a bit still if you wanted to go with a second CAD rather than an Allied Detachment. But it's pretty much in the form you'd want it to be. And there were bumps in the road as i had to adjust to the new 7E realities.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jreilly89 wrote:

Ah my mistake. Pronouns still, I'd be interested to see you destroy a Wraithknight and Riptide Turn One.

I dont think anyone locally plays Taudar right now. i could easily find an Eldar player though. Lol. Maybe I will do a batrep for the Blog if i can find someone. Our best local Eldar player is quite good, and he used to play Tau...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

Yeah I don't see how that is possible without the exorcist tank. Sisters lack long range anti-mc firepower when you remove the exorcist.

And that is the problem we're having, isn't it? You don't see (yet it happened!) and then if someone tells you, you don't believe. So really... What's happened here is you've decided what works instead of believing what does. If I win 8 out of 11, we call it a good day. But what if I told you it was the first 3 that I lost? Would you have kept trying? Or would you conclude it didn't work? Well if you play three times a week, you hardly are daunted. four times a month? Maybe you give up. It's a matter of perspective, isn't it? What if i took it to a tournament and lost all three games? Would I stop playing it and conclude it doesnt work? Or do i conclude my fellow Generals are as good as advertised? A matter of perspective. But if i did that, I'd be missing out on my next 8 tournament wins in a row!

Ironically, the list has won its last 8 tournament games in a row. if you count NON-torunament games, the list hs an even more impressive record against an even wider array of foes (most of which I have mentoned)

Food for thought. Here's an opportunity to actually see something the Chaos Marine codex does well. I'd be asking how to do it, not whether you should. But that's just me!

 Jancoran wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

In fact, you called 20 bikes list tailoring when it was brought up against your IG blob, which suggests...

...You mainly seem to put your nurgle csm against the weaker lists, from the reports we've seen so far.
Do you have a report of your CSM list going against the decurions, centstars, or bikes? Because the last time we saw such a report, it involved one of your amazing generals suiciding a wraithknight by charging a unit that re-rolls to hit/ BS 3 overwatches with 4 lascannons after it had been wounded.
But yeah, amazing generals.

CSM, Orks, BA, DE (I don't think the Coven would beat decurion),

If you have battle reports where your CSM face saim-hann and centstars, I'd love to see it. I can't find one where the CSM win anywhere.

Well... You're pretty much dead wrong about the Haemonculous Coven. I haven't had a game go pst 4 rounds in those matchups. I own a Coven list. Actually thats the same list that ws able to kill my IG blob. Friend of mine is borrowing it. Between the LD nerfs and their assault ability and its speed? Yeah. Just lance open the enemy transports and start butchering. Outflank the Talos to close the deal if the enemy doesnt make the approach too enticing.

What transports are you lancing open? Necrons generally don't take transports, SM take drop pods, Tau generally don't spam transports (maybe 1 or 2), and Eldar tend to take about 2, and can jink the dark lances. None of the power builds spam transports outside of 1 or 2 formations, so I don't see how you are lancing them open and start butchering.
Do you have any other reasons it's good besides "Its beaten me and I run it"? It's certainly not terrible, probably a good option for DE, but it can't beat decurion or most of the power builds you tend to see easily. Wraiths will eat a talos and keep on moving, so I'm not sure who you are outflanking.

 Jancoran wrote:

You're entirely misquoting me, from a thread that was locked on list tailoring. Again. I suggest veering from that subject. However the CORRECT version of what was said is that someone can be on a forum and tell me Imperial Knights suck because: Wraithguard or that a blob can "easily" be taken out by {fill in perfect unit}. But unless you physically have that in your list...so what? And that ignores the other God knows how many points in the army dedicated to ending the "perfect answer" you've posited in your perfect forum army.

No, that's not at all what was said.
You described a blob, and several units were listed that could beat it within 2 turns. These included drop pod marines (30) with launchers, 20 scat bikes, equivalent points in wraiths/flayed ones, and a few wyverns. With the exception of flayed ones, these are all incredibly common units in a competitive meta in each of those armies.
You then claimed the bikes were list building, and that nobody was going to take 40 bikes (despite only 20 being mentioned constantly, and links provided to competitive events where nearly every eldar list included at least 20 bikes).
All of these units were cheaper than your blob, so the enemy army has more points, from a stronger dex than you do.

 Jancoran wrote:

If you take 20 bikes in ONE unit, you get what you deserve though. You'll blitz some units, Tau style, with that. But damn.. I wouldn't do it. That is another whole thread so whatevs. Different strokes.

Probably why nobody suggested taking 20 bikes in one unit. All that was said is 20 bikes, you typically take them in small units (like the list you posted in the same thread).
Its one of the reasons scat bikes would walk all over the dread mob your tournament seemed to struggle with. Each small unit of bikes can remove 2HP pretty reliably without buffs.

 Jancoran wrote:

I beat a Decurion and a super stompy Forge World Tyranid force at the ITC tournament before this. I lost to a Nurgle Deamon list because essentially I just forgot to move a Rhino. In two different turns. ouch, What a way to lose! So that was a bummer, my failing, not the lists failing. But the list performed exactly as it should otherwise. The Decurion was not difficult. Dirge Casters stopped his Overwatch and I spread out like a MOFO to avoid the worst of his enormous blasty weapons from the Tesseract Vault and stayed in combat otherwise to avoid it. Worked well. I morale checked him off the board pretty much. Never killed the Vault. Those things are damn tough and they put out a lot o firepower though.

Do you have a battle report? Because "blasty weapons" is not normal when I think Decurion. Decurion is usually spyders, some destroyers, hordes of warriors and wraiths.

 Jancoran wrote:

The Tyranids had this ENORMOUSLY large Flamer template (again i despise Forge World so i cant even tell you what it was) on a creature that could move really fast and fire it as torrent! He had these insane Hammer of Wrath rules where his guys do like D3 AP 2 Hammers of Wrath hits (wrecked 9 Raptors just with the Hammers of Wrath in one charge before he swung a damn thing). Rock Crushers or some such.
Anyways, I basically ran from him turn one to avoid that gross template, then swung to the opposing sides and finally engaged. My Heldrake was a boss in that game. He vector struck one of the Hive Tyrant dead at the end, which was pretty sweet, plus weakened stuff all game long. I think he had three of those flying terrors in the sky to start. I have no anti-air. So that was fun. Did beat him anyways though.

Again, if it wasn't FMC circus it probably wasn't very good. Tyranids outside of FMC's and a select few other units are just awful. I also play nids, have since 3rd, and still pull them out every now and again. Luckily I was able to convert some of my MC's from the era of the carnifex into FMCs and still do great with them. I'm not interested in your games against sub-par lists, my chaos army does just fine against those.

 Jancoran wrote:

I mean we can go on and on. I do actually have batreps on my Blog (including video ones), which is free to view (and its in my signature below). You can kind of see the evolutions the list went through as I developed it., starting last year i think. It had a Defiler originally. Tried a Land Raider. Tried a number of things before finally getting it to this form. I think it now has come to kind of its final mature form for this codex. You can jiggle it a bit still if you wanted to go with a second CAD rather than an Allied Detachment. But it's pretty much in the form you'd want it to be. And there were bumps in the road as i had to adjust to the new 7E realities.

I went through your blog, and was unable to find any battle report where you faced a decurion, competitive 7E eldar list, censtar SM list with your Night lords.
Do you have a direct link?


Btw, how are you killing a wraithknight and riptide turn 1 with SoB and no excorsists?

EDIT;

 Jancoran wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

Yeah I don't see how that is possible without the exorcist tank. Sisters lack long range anti-mc firepower when you remove the exorcist.

And that is the problem we're having, isn't it? You don't see (yet it happened!) and then if someone tells you, you don't believe. So really... What's happened here is you've decided what works instead of believing what does.

...yes? This is how logic and science work.
If someone makes a claim, they need to back it up with examples and how it was done, or some math. They can't just walk in and say "Well I did it!" and walk out.
That's how the false reports of cold fusion happened. That's how the anti-vax movement got started. By people just believing things without evidence, because hey, feels good to believe.
And it's not like I'm saying you are flat out wrong.

I'm pointing out why I disagree with you, and laying out various points. I then ask you to back up what you are saying beyond saying "I did it" (via a batrep, or details on what happened against the specific lists everyone playing CSM says they are struggling to beat ).
Just like I asked you how you are blowing up both a riptide and wraithknight without excorsists turn 1. I don't see it, I'd like to know how it's done, so I'm asking you.
The fact you didn't simply answer and instead went off on a rant about belief doesn't really help me at all.

Akiasura wrote:

1. What transports are you lancing open? Necrons generally don't take transports...
2. Probably why nobody suggested taking 20 bikes in one unit.
3. re: Necrons: Do you have a battle report? Because "blasty weapons" is not normal when I think Decurion. Decurion is usually spyders, some destroyers, hordes of warriors and wraiths.
4. Again, if it wasn't FMC circus it probably wasn't very good.
5. I went through your blog, and was unable to find any battle report where you faced a decurion, competitive 7E eldar list, censtar SM list with your Night lords.
Do you have a direct link?
6. Btw, how are you killing a wraithknight and riptide turn 1 with SoB and no excorsists?

1. You were speaking of Coven v Decurion. My answer on this new question you pose: Irrelevant. If there ARE no transports, all the better! If i dont have to get you out of those, I'm good. Fire your destroyers, friend. =) Round two is going to hurt.
2. Yet they did. So saying they didn't? Kinda insane? But again I would encourage you to leave that particular thread alone. It was locked. For good reason.
3. That's nice. Not familiar with the Tessaract Vault, I take it? Look it up. And... of course... he had Destroyers. Lots of those. As you'd expect in a Decurion.
4. So. Ask me if it was. Then post.
5. That would be because i didn't do a batrep against a Decurion. It was however at the last tournament before this one. We got pics if you want em (not the highest quality photos but they get the job done) and my Night Lords win over the Decurion are in fact depicted! Lol. Night Lords powning the decurion link. It was a good time. The overall winner took crazy Imperial Knights stuff. Fluger is fairly well known. He used to be a really competitive Ork player until 6E, went to all the big events, knows Reece at Frontline gaming and so on. Now his family kinda requires he stay at home so we decided to bring the tournament to his house instead of dragging him out of it (he didn't play but he got to run it, which was a goal for him). BTW, gratuitous thanks to Reece for the playmat donation/gift/whatever it was! Those playmats are pretty awesome. EDIT: Also thanks to OFCC for bringing the terrain!
6. Super secret Ecclesiarchy stuff that no one knows about unless they are educated on the subject. =) Not to be snarky, but seriously, if you actually knew the codex, you wouldn't have to ask me that. And not knowing the Codex, you should espouse no opinion as to the viability of nuclear striking a Wraith Knight/Imprial Knight turn one. You may wish to refer however to Pretre's 190 page tactica thread on Dakkadakka for help in understanding them better since your opinion of Exorcists is very clearly not based in actual games played and your opinion that they are monobuild is equally... uh... Not the case...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and: Dominion will nuclear strike them in turn one. And as stated, it will be somewhat longer in the coming if i go second and outflank.

 Jancoran wrote:

Akiasura wrote:


1. What transports are you lancing open? Necrons generally don't take transports...

2. Probably why nobody suggested taking 20 bikes in one unit.

3. re: Necrons: Do you have a battle report? Because "blasty weapons" is not normal when I think Decurion. Decurion is usually spyders, some destroyers, hordes of warriors and wraiths.

4. Again, if it wasn't FMC circus it probably wasn't very good.

5. I went through your blog, and was unable to find any battle report where you faced a decurion, competitive 7E eldar list, censtar SM list with your Night lords.
Do you have a direct link?

6. Btw, how are you killing a wraithknight and riptide turn 1 with SoB and no excorsists?

Hilarity.

Always a good start.

 Jancoran wrote:

1. You were speaking of Coven v Decurion. My answer on this new question you pose: Irrelevant. If there ARE no transports, all the better! If i dont have to get you out of those, I'm good. Fire your destroyers, friend. =) Round two is going to hurt.

Okay? I'm not sure what you mean by fire the destroyers. Do you mean with darklances or...? Because darklances are terrible against destroyers.
How are you taking out the massive amounts of infantry, and the wraiths?

 Jancoran wrote:

2. Yet they did. So saying they didn't? Kinda insane? But again I would encourage you to leave that particular thread alone. It was locked. For good reason.

No, literally they didn't. Not one person said a squad of 20 bikes. Only 20 bikes, no mention of how many squads, and that it is commonly seen in competitive lists. Competitive lists were linked that included min sized squads as well.
If you got the impression it was one giant squad, that was your own imagination at work.

 Jancoran wrote:

3. That's nice. Not familiar with the Tessaract Vault, I take it? Look it up. And... of course... he had Destroyers. Lots of those. As you'd expect in a Decurion.

The Tessaract vault is good in a traditional necron list, since at that point they take transports and you want to spam AV 13 to protect it, since it's very expensive.
In a decurion it is the only tank on the table and too vulnerable to haywire for its expensive cost.
See how I listed reasons not to take it instead of implying something?

 Jancoran wrote:

4. So. Ask me if it was. Then post.

You originally said it was genestealers. I asked what list it was originally since Tyranids vary in power dramatically depending on the units taken.
You then went on about another game that was, again, not against the competitive tyranid force.
But let's drop it.

 Jancoran wrote:

5. That would be because i didn't do a batrep against a Decurion. It was however at the last tournament before this one. We got pics if you want em (not the highest quality photos but they get the job done) and my Night Lords win over the Decurion are in fact depicted! Lol. Night Lords powning the decurion link. It was a good time. The overall winner took crazy Imperial Knights stuff. Fluger is fairly well known. He used to be a really competitive Ork player until 6E, went to all the big events, knows Reece at Frontline gaming and so on. Now his family kinda requires he stay at home so we decided to bring the tournament to his house instead of dragging him out of it (he didn't play but he got to run it, which was a goal for him). BTW, gratuitous thanks to Reece for the playmat donation/gift/whatever it was! Those playmats are pretty awesome.

The link just takes me to a few photos of what looks like titans facing off against a necron force.

So...just to be clear, you don't have any batreps of your night lords facing off against centstar, competitive 7e eldar, or decurion?
I just want to be clear. I've been asking for a while now and would really like to see it.

 Jancoran wrote:

6. Super secret Ecclesiarchy stuff that no one knows about unless they are educated on the subject. =) Not to be snarky, but seriously, if you actually knew the codex, you wouldn't have to ask me that. And not knowing the Codex, you should espouse no opinion as to the viability of nuclear striking a Wraith Knight/Imprial Knight turn one. You may wish to refer however to Pretre's 190 page tactica thread on Dakkadakka for help in understanding them better since your opinion of Exorcists is very clearly not based in actual games played and your opinion that they are monobuild is equally... uh... Not the case...

See below about your super secret tech and why it won't quite do what you claim.

 Jancoran wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and: Dominion will nuclear strike them in turn one. And as stated, it will be somewhat longer in the coming if i go second and outflank.

A dominion squad at equivalent points won't kill a riptide though, even if it can get in range (if you get turn one, sure, but go second and the rip tide will just move out of the way with its absurd movement range).
A dominion squad with 5 meltas (4+ combi melta) without an immolator still has to hit (So about 3.5 hits).
Then you have to get through 5++ so now about ~2.5 wounds.
Then it gets FnP, so about 2 wounds.
Congrats, your 1 bolter has to cause 3 wounds.
If you take a max squad of 10, you get 4 bolters to cause 3 wounds on a rip tide.

If you take 2 dominion squads, you can just do it statistically. But you've invested a lot more than the riptide costs, and still haven't touched the wraithknight.

Against a wraith knight, you will cause 3.5 hits with 5 meltas
1.75 wounds against T8
1.15 wounds after 5++, and we can stop here.

So you need quite a few dominion squads to kill just the wraith knight. To kill both you would need to not only go first, but have 5+ Squads for the wraithknight and 2+ squads for the riptide, on average. So...yeah, wow, you showed me that super secret tech of investing 3x the points to kill 2 models and hoping you go first.

Chaos is good at being bad...

Akiasura wrote:


1. Okay? I'm not sure what you mean by fire the destroyers. Do you mean with darklances or...? Because darklances are terrible against destroyers.
How are you taking out the massive amounts of infantry, and the wraiths?
2. In a decurion it is the only tank on the table and too vulnerable to haywire for its expensive cost.
3. You originally said it was genestealers.
4. The link just takes me to a few photos of what looks like titans facing off against a necron force.
5. I just want to be clear. I've been asking for a while now and would really like to see it.
6. A dominion squad at equivalent points won't kill a riptide...
So you need quite a few dominion squads to kill just the wraith knight.

1. Dark Lances wouldn't be firing at all in the scenario you posit'd wherein no transports exist. Why would I?
2. If you say so. Another way to look at it is 4 Hull Points, AV 13 and hellatious firing coming from those platforms with no enemy able to hit the guys inside until they are close, plus movement advantages. I'm more of a Wraith guy myself (My list was three Canoptek Harvests and a CAD or I alternatively used a Warrior list with the Obelisk+Monoliths), but he went with the crazy "never misses" Destroyer army and the heinous unkillable super heavy Thunderblitzing gunship. Whatevs. Look closer at the pics. My army is there. Blue Rhino stands out.
3. I didn't. What I told you in relation to this was that in the tournament before this weekend (and you wonder why I caps lock things) I did fight a Decurion (the army you said I shouldn't be beating)
4. Keep scrolling. This is why I dont bother linking things for you and others. You don't even spend any time on it. Too busy typing your responses.
5. Asked and answered.
6. And this is why you aren't a Sisters of Battle player. You're missing one of the key things this particular build does for its Dominion in your math. Which is fine. It's not a crime not to know this fairly uncommonly played codex like I do. You don't have the experience to speak to their effectiveness, and you think we give a rip how many Dominions it takes to do the job. Let me enlighten you: we don't. The key factoid: The job got done. So you can entertain whatever mental gymnastics over whether its "worth it" in your mind to commit that much to the most powerful and impactful units the enemy has while you have the chance. You could do that. Sure. Or you could come to the realization that they are the most powerful and impactful units they have. In which case, you might come to agree with me that it deserves my full and undivided attention while I have the chance to end it. The rest can wait. We will take heinous counter losses doing this. I've lived it. We will. That sacrifice will never be in vain. It will be followed by a rather unpleasant and sometimes very final blow from the Adepta Sororitas that will leave the rest of the game in no real doubt. Unlike my Night Lords who i eschew bragging about since I'm aware that they require a certain finesse to play and good timing (the very strategy for which they were built), I do openly claim bragging rights for the Adepta Sororitas. You need no "Exorcist monobuilds". You really should avoid that intimation moving forward. This is just one build I have found to be effective. I also have lists that use Adepta Sororitas blobs (which won the most tournaments for me of any army and which I took to GT's, losing one game at each of those events), and I'm proud to say I even won two Tournaments in a row using the White Dwarf...thing they called a codex... that included (literally) one of every unit from the "codex". Try doing that! Yes even the Command Squad, which there were pages upon pages of hate mail for on DakkaDakka. Monobuild? no.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Konrax wrote:
Chaos is good at being bad...

Morally corrupt?

You're literally going to ignore math because it doesn't agree with you on killing Riptides and Wraithknights?

Do you understand WHY people are having a hard time taking you seriously now?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You're literally going to ignore math because it doesn't agree with you on killing Riptides and Wraithknights?

Do you understand WHY people are having a hard time taking you seriously now?

But, my anecdotes!!!

So, just to reiterate, you are unable to link to any such report at all?
Just wanted to be sure.

Love the unwillingness to link a report but happy to write massive paragraphs that don't at all deal with the particulars of the argument.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You're literally going to ignore math because it doesn't agree with you on killing Riptides and Wraithknights?

Do you understand WHY people are having a hard time taking you seriously now?

"people"? Interesting choice of word.

Oh no. I won't ignore the math. I was quite rapt with attention as I read it actually. You do mean the math wherein he points out that I can do it at extreme cost? Saw that math. I also saw his math is missing a pretty important piece of information (I'll let you dig for that). Once he corrects his math, and says the words "I see my mistake now" I will say more if you like. He's a teacher, so that should not be a difficult thing to say, as he hears it often enough from his students. But as this thread is a Chaos thread...

Trust me. In answer to your mean spirited question, the name of my blog says it all. I am truly aware of how creative my solutions seem to "people" (that nebulous group you refer to, as you seek to appeal to higher authority). I also know the results very personally, whereas you have only this forum to tell you what they were. You are free to decide what you will or won't do, and need no permission from me.

I'm just here to tell you this is one way the cat can, in fact, be skinned. Practice it. Try it. Or don't. Going out and buying 30 Raptors might not be in the budget. Might not even be your style o army. Al those consideerations aside, you at least know it can perform where it matters.

If you own enough, give it a try. Maybe play them for five games, alter them to your strategic method. Might take a few games but I mean... You've read this far. May as well.





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 Eldarain wrote:
Love the unwillingness to link a report but happy to write massive paragraphs that don't at all deal with the particulars of the argument.

What report? I already said there wasn't one that meets his requirements (fighting a Decurion).

EDIT: Other links are in the sig. he couldnt be bothered to scroll down like five pics to find the one of my army vs. Decurion but he's going to read an entire batrep? I have my doubts.

Alright guys. Let's keep it polite here.

 War Kitten wrote:
Alright guys. Let's keep it polite here.

Kay, Sure.

Found one. This one shows an older version of the army and its facing the 6E Eldar codex. I don't know what you can get from it but sure. Eldar Hull spam was the power build in 6E. This one is unusual because it uses Karandras, who is a beast, but he's fairly uncommon in lists.

http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2014/02/battle-report-mechdar-vs-night-lords.html

Again, not the army as it sits now so it really doesnt help but just to be game and show where the list evolved from might be fun for someone. It's what I got for whoever cares. Probably no one.

Heres an even earlier version. Opponents list was far friendlier in this one though. Still, this was how the list was BEFORE the Eldar fight.
:
http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2014/01/night-lordsattack.html

Here's a view of the Coven list i mentioned before and what it does. This was against Plasmavet mech guard type army. Mostly its just there to show the Coven army and why i wouldn't fire Dark Lances at Necrons turn one.

COVEN!

 Jancoran wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You're literally going to ignore math because it doesn't agree with you on killing Riptides and Wraithknights?

Do you understand WHY people are having a hard time taking you seriously now?

"people"? Interesting choice of word.

When more than one person is included, it's called people.
What else would you have called them?

 Jancoran wrote:

Oh no. I won't ignore the math. I was quite rapt with attention as I read it actually. You do mean the math wherein he points out that I can do it at extreme cost? Saw that math.

Well, technically you said dominion and not dominions, so you certainly suggested one squad. I think I showed one squad couldn't do it with a reasonable chance of success
Or did you mean something else?

 Jancoran wrote:

I also saw his math is missing a pretty important piece of information (I'll let you dig for that). Once he corrects his math, and says the words "I see my mistake now" I will say more if you like. He's a teacher, so that should not be a difficult thing to say, as he hears it often enough from his students. But as this thread is a Chaos thread...

Let me start by saying, PLEASE STOP INSULTING ME WITH PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE COMMENTS. If you have something nasty to say, take it to PM.
I am trying to be civil here, and just because you can't be bothered to actually debate or raise any points is no reason to make snide remarks in regards to me being a professor .

Please point out the mistake in the math. I don't believe your AoF matters (it's ignores cover, yes?), BS 4, Str 8, doesn't ignore invuls...I don't see where I made a mistake.

 Jancoran wrote:

Trust me. In answer to your mean spirited question, the name of my blog says it all. I am truly aware of how creative my solutions seem to "people" (that nebulous group you refer to, as you seek to appeal to higher authority). I also know the results very personally, whereas you have only this forum to tell you what they were. You are free to decide what you will or won't do, and need no permission from me.

I'm just here to tell you this is one way the cat can, in fact, be skinned. Practice it. Try it. Or don't. Going out and buying 30 Raptors might not be in the budget. Might not even be your style o army. Al those consideerations aside, you at least know it can perform where it matters.

If you could link to a single battle report of you facing Decurion, 7e Eldar, or competitive SM, I'll try out your strategies. I have to see these strategies to even consider them, since everytime you get asked what you do it is extremely vague.
You say you face them all the time in your meta. You don't have a battle report?

 Jancoran wrote:

If you own enough, give it a try. Maybe play them for five games, alter them to your strategic method. Might take a few games but I mean... You've read this far. May as well.

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 Eldarain wrote:
Love the unwillingness to link a report but happy to write massive paragraphs that don't at all deal with the particulars of the argument.

What report? I already said there wasn't one that meets his requirements (fighting a Decurion).

EDIT: Other links are in the sig. he couldnt be bothered to scroll down like five pics to find the one of my army vs. Decurion but he's going to read an entire batrep? I have my doubts.

The link is literally some pictures of titans and what I assume to be your army (I have no idea what color your army is) versus necrons. There is no mention of the armies used, the lists, or anything of a report. At the bottom there is a link to house gaming and some mini tournament.
Rest assured, I read the link you gave. But the link wasn't what me or anyone else is asking for, so it was useless.

I am asking for a batrep of your CSM facing competitive SM, Eldar in 7e, or Decurion. You said they were in your meta, you didn't write a report when you faced what is highly regarded as the toughest match ups for the CSM codex?
If you didn't, just say so. But don't make it seem like I won't read it, I already read through the blog (and even commented on particulars in other threads, so clearly I'm willing to read what you link).
I'm not going to go surfing through this site hoping to find a batrep of you. I may not even know it's you, since I have no idea what your army looks like or what your name is.

 Jancoran wrote:
Other links are in the sig. he couldnt be bothered to scroll down like five pics to find the one of my army vs. Decurion but he's going to read an entire batrep? I have my doubts.

They can't copy your strategies without a full batrep to dissect what makes you win. The arguments are in order to force you to disclose in full easily digestible detail how to make a better CSM army. Best way to get a MtG player to share his secrets is by insulting his deck. You already listed the army itself, now they keep fighting to understand what they are supposed to do with it to win. The ones who already know how to play the game have left the topic after seeing the list, having decided for themselves whether you were right or not long ago. All that remains are those hunting effective strategies. The quest for knowledge leads fanboys to become rabid.

Akiasura wrote:


Well, technically you said dominion and not dominions, so you certainly suggested one squad. I think I showed one squad couldn't do it with a reasonable chance of success
Or did you mean something else?
.

Dominion is plural also.

Here is a sentence to illustrate this point: "The Dominion in the force do well".


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Akiasura 669194 8254883 wrote:
I am trying to be civil here, .

We disagree on this point. Probably why I have taken the liberty of perhaps needling you too harshly? My apologies.


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Akiasura wrote:


If you could link to a single battle report of you facing Decurion... etc...etc... .

I did provide some. They dont meet your criterion. Sorry. Repeating the request mwont make me more able to say yes. And you've asked several times. I have the ones I posted. That's all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

...you didn't write a report when you faced what is highly regarded as the toughest match ups for the CSM codex?
If you didn't, just say so.

I did. Multiple times now. Go back and read the multiple times if you like. There isn't one. I don't write these things for everry game I play! Sheesh. Do you?