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At BS:3 and no ignores cover most Guard firepower goes nowhere.

Typically-Wardian wrote:
Comparisons with everything else. The IG stand up amazingly well.

*sigh*

Imperial Guard Veteran vs Space Marine Scout:

Scout:
-11 ppm
-MEQ statline (Ws, Bs, S, T, I are all 4, 1 wound, 1 attack, ld 8)
-4+ armour standard
-Boltgun and Bolt Pistol
-Frag + Krak Grenades
-Chapter Tactics
-ATSKNF
-Infiltrate
-Scout
-Move Through Cover

Veteran:
-6 ppm (4 points cheaper)
-GEQ statline (Ws, Bs, S, T, I are all 3, 1 wound, 1 attack, ld 7) (this alone is a difference worth more than 4 points)
-5+ armour standard (pay 1.5 ppm to get the 4+ back)
-Lasgun and Laspistol (-1 str, and no ap)
-Frag Grenades (krak grenades are an extra 1 ppm)
-Orders (for a 50% boost in lasgun shots for a turn)

For a difference of 4 ppm, the scout marine is more than twice as good as the veteran.

Typically-Wardian wrote:
Comparisons with everything else. The IG stand up amazingly well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Did you just lose a game to Guard, OP?

I play guard.

Do the statistics look like they stand up amazingly well?

The AM consistently perform horribly at every tournament, alongside BA.

The AM lose. A lot. That is why people think they are bad.

Also, if you play AM and think they are so good, I want your lists.
In what kind of meta do you play? Does anyone play Eldar?

Typically-Wardian wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
They suffer from the age old tau issue that they don't gain ground well. Missions that require a quick hop and skip out to no man's land like the relic or a bunch of maelstrom objectives are near impossible for them. Any squad fool enough to try will get shredded.

That doesn't really matter when the IG can take out the enemy army from 72"+ away, no problem.

Issue: the enemy starts 24ish inches away from you. I'm sure if you had scenarios where the armies started as far apart as the longest range gun, guard would do a lot better. (Guard actually rock the house in apocalypse. They make me glad to be on the imperial side.)

And unlike say...the tau, you don't have tons of twin linked high strength ignore cover, and your big guns don't have t6 4 or more wounds with awesome armor, an invuln, toe in cover ability, smash, and fnp. They instead have middling armor that will get Swiss cheesed the turn the scat bikes start shooting. With little to no interceptor, you can't do much against an opponent who brings in drop pods or has other shooters like the aforementioned scatpacks come in from reserve.

ITC events have maelstrom as roughly a third of the mission points in every mission, so not being able to quickly line break early or go contest a no man's land or even enemy backfield objective at any time are major flaws in that format.

Typically-Wardian wrote:

Selym wrote:The IG are underpowered because they are point-for-point far more inefficient than most other forces. CSM being the exception, as they are downright unplayable most of the time.

Now you're just talking out your ass.

master of ordinance wrote:
The LRBT will struggle to kill its own points in a single phase, unless your opponent is stupid to leave a big, expensive, 3+ or worse and no invun save unit out in the open and it is bundled up in a tight group and your shot does not scatter and you wound every model and they are all T4 or less and not multi wound....... See where this is going?
The Basilisk is even worse off, having the same issues with none of the Leman Russ's survivability.
The Wyvern is a decent choice..... One of only two that is worth its points in the entire codex.

The HQ's are force multipliers? How?

100+ Infantry whom will vanish in about two/three turns.

For the LRBT just shoot at all the MEQ units that are spammed everywhere. I've never seen one fail to make its point back. Especially when they can mount additional weapons on the cheap, and fire them all on the move.

The problem with the LRBT is as follows;
Terrible rear armor. It is easy for marines to drop 3 plasma guns/ meltas into your rear arc and 1 round the LRBT. They can then use the pod launcher to remove some of the infantry, all for a relatively cheap unit.
Their battle cannon is AP 3 and doesn't ignore cover. Most units will still get a cover save of 5+. For marines, this is still not great, but for eldar and the like it's often only a small drop in a save. Against GEQ they might as well still have a save. Bikes can still jink
Their battle cannon being Ap 3 means that a lot of the best units in the game still get a 2+ save against it.
It's other weapons are fired as snap shots since 6th edition.
It's battle cannon is Str 8, so a lot of units that you really want instant death against (cents, wraiths) still get their full wound usage.

It's a tank that is designed to remove MEQs in mass in an edition where MEQs are not taken in mass.

Typically-Wardian wrote:

Nobody else has that kind of power. The Basilisk cannot be outranged, can fire indirectly, hit from behind cover, and denies all armour saves. Hide it behind terrain, and it's practically unbeatable.

Again the basilisk can be removed pretty easily by any drop podding force turn 1.
It's guns suffer from similar problems to the LRBT, enemies still get cover saves and it doesn't deny 2+ cover saves (I believe, going off memory here).
It can only indirect fire over a minimum range, and that min range is pretty long.

Typically-Wardian wrote:

The HQ's all have orders that can make the 100+ infantry so much more shooty that they really shouldn't even have the orders rule. And nobody -bar nobody- can take out all the stuff that the IG can put on the table.

You'll find t hat it's pretty easy for eldar armies to remove about 25-30 infantry a turn from 36" given 20 scat bikes. The 100+ troops can be destroyed by turn 4 while the eldar player dances back.
Other armies can't put out that much firepower as easily, but basic guard aren't very threatening. Even doing 60% casualties is enough most of the time.

Typically-Wardian wrote:

Colehkxix wrote:People think that it is underpowered because it is.

And yet nobody seems to be able to prove how. I wonder why...

TheAvengingKnee wrote:It would be cool to see guard get a bike unit or equivalent for an option to move faster otherwise they are stuck with the 12" vehicle movement + flatout.

Rough Riders. Y'know, they guys with cheap fast ap3 spam?

Rough riders are good if they hit.
They die to a stiff breeze (unlike TWC and other good melee units) and are just expensive enough where it hurts. Rough riders haven't been great since...I want to say ever.
They also lack Ap 2 and a large number of attacks. You really want some ap2 in a melee unit, or a bucketload of attacks.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:
Comparisons with everything else. The IG stand up amazingly well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Did you just lose a game to Guard, OP?

I play guard.

Do the statistics look like they stand up amazingly well?

Spoiler:

The AM consistently perform horribly at every tournament, alongside BA.

The AM lose. A lot. That is why people think they are bad.

Also, if you play AM and think they are so good, I want your lists.
In what kind of meta do you play? Does anyone play Eldar?

where did you get that chart at? that is actually really handy.

Holy gak, I got ninja'd something bad!

Typically-Wardian wrote:

Selym wrote:The IG are underpowered because they are point-for-point far more inefficient than most other forces. CSM being the exception, as they are downright unplayable most of the time.

Now you're just talking out your ass.

I have no words to say save that you really aught to get off the net.

master of ordinance wrote:
The LRBT will struggle to kill its own points in a single phase, unless your opponent is stupid to leave a big, expensive, 3+ or worse and no invun save unit out in the open and it is bundled up in a tight group and your shot does not scatter and you wound every model and they are all T4 or less and not multi wound....... See where this is going?
The Basilisk is even worse off, having the same issues with none of the Leman Russ's survivability.
The Wyvern is a decent choice..... One of only two that is worth its points in the entire codex.

The HQ's are force multipliers? How?

100+ Infantry whom will vanish in about two/three turns.

For the LRBT just shoot at all the MEQ units that are spammed everywhere. I've never seen one fail to make its point back. Especially when they can mount additional weapons on the cheap, and fire them all on the move. Nobody else has that kind of power. The Basilisk cannot be outranged, can fire indirectly, hit from behind cover, and denies all armour saves. Hide it behind terrain, and it's practically unbeatable.
The HQ's all have orders that can make the 100+ infantry so much more shooty that they really shouldn't even have the orders rule. And nobody -bar nobody- can take out all the stuff that the IG can put on the table.

Leman Russ are cheap? They are semi viable at best and the only reason you see them used is because there is nothing better. Those extra weapons? Better not be an Ordnance tank or you have just wasted your points. And as for firing its weapons on the move, well I am damn glad that it can, seeing as it is stuck with a 6" move and no boost whatsoever, making it slower than infantry. Oh and firing them all on the move? See the Ordnance issue above.
I would also like to know which players these are whom are letting their MEQ units stand around in the open? For a Russ to make its points back, that is achievable. So long as you did not purchase any upgrades and it lasts more than 3 turns.
The Basilisk can fire indirectly yes.... With a 36" minimal range. Have fun hitting anything after turn one, and as for its range, well on a 6 foot board that never really seems to matter. Also the Volcano cannon and a plethora of other heavy weapons can reach out as far as it. Also: Hunter Killers.
100+ infantry? What, you just took two 50 man blob squads? Those might just last a couple of turns....

Colehkxix wrote:People think that it is underpowered because it is.

And yet nobody seems to be able to prove how. I wonder why...

In both this thread and the other thread and a few dozen others the Imperial Guard have been proven time and time again to be the 2nd weakest codex in the entire game.

TheAvengingKnee wrote:It would be cool to see guard get a bike unit or equivalent for an option to move faster otherwise they are stuck with the 12" vehicle movement + flatout.

Rough Riders. Y'know, they guys with cheap fast ap3 spam?

You mean the overpriced underarmoured guys on ponies whom usually get blitzed long before they can get across the board and whom can only deliver their S5 AP3 hit once in the entire game?

Typically-Wardian wrote:Comparisons with everything else. The IG stand up amazingly well.

What are you smoking OP because I could really do with some

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Did you just lose a game to Guard, OP?

I play guard.

I find that hard to believe, infact I call bull

In theory yes, they can drop a massive amount of fire power, into deployment zones where most models are either in reserve or deep striking.... and yes their tanks can get lots of sponsons for cheap, except that they no longer have lumbering behemoth, so they can't move and shoot... or fire the cannon and not snap shoot.... hmm the basilisk can take out all armor saves.. with ap3 I don't see how that work.

The orders that fail almost 50% of the time and can be used only if you are within range.

Yes I see why people are always terrified to play guard.

Y'know sometimes I question if chaos marines w/ forgeworld are weaker then AM at all. I have a pair of players on my group that go full mechguard, LRBT and all, and usually complain as they lose to space wolves and dark eldar. Heck my army of 2 hellcults supported by tzeentch sorcerers and contemptor Dreads tend to mop the flow with them, without even summoning. We still have a joke about how their baneblades tend to kill more allies in their inevitable explosion then what their guns actually do

I blame it on the nerfing of Creed and no Sly Marbo

guard really need a price cut on most of their stuff and some kind of fast unit. Everything in the army is slow.

The basic guard is arse. The veteran guard is also arse. And their stormtroopers equivalent are a bit less arse. They can bring the pain but can't take any while the rest of the troops don't bring any pain with their str 3 ap-.

Thing is i've always concidered basic guard infantry as cannon fodder. That's what the imperium does. Bring loads of useless guys to get shot up while your big guns cause havok.

But I can see why people say AM is UP. Other then mech. not much else seems to work out. Except ye old blob guard vs heavy AT armies.

I disagree on veterans, due to the ability to get lots of special weapons.

 drunken0elf wrote:
The veteran guard is also arse. And their stormtroopers equivalent are a bit less arse.

If anything, it's the other way round. Storm Troopers are badly overcosted - being the same price as marines but with a much worse statline.

Their weapons are AP3, but S3 utterly cripples them, and the pitiful range doesn't help matters.

 TheAvengingKnee wrote:
Everyone wants their army to be Tau level, if they are not they believe it to need improvement.

I don't. I merely want my IG to be Decurion level.

And if it is not on par with Necron Decurion, then it definitely needs improvement.

Typically-Wardian wrote:
For the LRBT just shoot at all the MEQ units that are spammed everywhere. I've never seen one fail to make its point back. Especially when they can mount additional weapons on the cheap, and fire them all on the move. Nobody else has that kind of power. The Basilisk cannot be outranged, can fire indirectly, hit from behind cover, and denies all armour saves. Hide it behind terrain, and it's practically unbeatable.
The HQ's all have orders that can make the 100+ infantry so much more shooty that they really shouldn't even have the orders rule. And nobody -bar nobody- can take out all the stuff that the IG can put on the table.

Wow there is so much misinformation here. Most Russes actually CAN'T fire all of their weapons on the move because the ones people most often take have ordnance weapons, which force snap shots on all your other guns. I played Guard for years and rarely have I seen a Russ makes its points back. Only after blowing up a Rhino with something else and dishing out the pie plate on the cluttered passengers have I ever seen a Russ make even remotely close to its points back. As to your other points, I don't know if anyone can take you seriously if you complain about the Basilisk. Yes, it can fire indirectly and from behind cover, but with zero reduction to the scatter distance. That means you are hitting, on average, twice throughout the course of a normal game. With AP 3 it does certainly not deny all armor saves, don't know where you're pulling that from.

As to the orders and HQs as force multipliers... you do realize that officers are stuck in their tiny 5-man squads right? If they were independent characters that could throw themselves into 30-man squads, I could MAYBE understand your frustration but as they are now? No way. If you can't wipe out 5-man GEQ units, there is something seriously wrong with your list building.

Most people think Guard are under powered thanks to the recent jump in codex power. We struggle against the top tier armies. That's not to say that Guard can't win against them, it's just an uphill battle. We have some strong units, but they're outnumbered by the units that are overpriced/underpowered.

 TheAvengingKnee wrote:
It would be cool to see guard get a bike unit or equivalent for an option to move faster

Such as... (wait for it...)

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
You might be able to something with rough-riders or something. (Those are the guys on horses right?)

Bingo.

Yes, Rough Riders exist since Rogue Trader / 2E. They suck. Very badly. For quite some time now. Expensive like a SM, but still fragile like a Guardsman - not worth the points premium for slightly faster movement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Do the statistics look like they stand up amazingly well?

The AM consistently perform horribly at every tournament, alongside BA.

The AM lose. A lot. That is why people think they are bad.

Also, if you play AM and think they are so good, I want your lists.
In what kind of meta do you play? Does anyone play Eldar?

I am just glad that those crappy Tau got their sub-par Codex fixed, because they really needed it.

But yeah, I'm curious what he's running to make Guard so good. Although I'm afraid we get another guy bringing 600+ pts of Guard blob and calling it "good"...

Typically-Wardian wrote:
Just... Why? They can put down 100+ infantry and tons of vehicles every game, and massively outnumber their opponents, they have units that can take out their points of stuff in a single phase (Wyvern, LRBT, Basilisk), their HQ's are all force multipliers, they can take lots of psykers, and they have more LoW choices than everyone else. I don't get how you could think that the AM are underpowered.

Dunno'. I think that the collection size limits some players. then people play them and roll some guy whose just pleased as punch he gets to play with army men and they look to tournament standings and see Astra Militarum not as highly ranked (albeit also less represented which has a lot ot do with it) and DECIDE it's not.

People who dont play the codex outnumber those who do. As in most codex's. So the majority speak about their general gaming experience and havent REALLY played the codex, nor spent many hours digesting and planning for it.

That ALSO leads them to a lot less educated view of it. As with most codex's, a LOT of people simply haven't, in any RECENT past, actively used that particular codex.

The ones who have are running into Wraith Knights and so on and saying "what can men do against such evil?" but some of that just comes down to the General and some of it the collections limitations and other times its that they played someone whose really awesome! All those things could further taint someones perception.

So it's not like there's NO reason for people to SAY it's not competitive. It's when you illustrate to them how it can be and their brain shuts down and says "nope, internet said nope, so nope" that I get annoyed. Lol.

Ah, the joys of being a Guard player, They sucked in 2nd, they sucked in 3rd, missed 4th, not to bad in 5th, alright in 6th and back to suck in 7th.
You'll get used to it, just find a list that you like, that's fluffy and screw the crunch. I play a list that has at lest 4 armoured sentinels in it and I get stomped on all the time... that said, I do make it bloody hard going for the other player (plasma vet ).

 Ribon Fox wrote:
Ah, the joys of being a Guard player, They sucked in 2nd, they sucked in 3rd, missed 4th, not to bad in 5th, alright in 6th and back to suck in 7th.
You'll get used to it, just find a list that you like, that's fluffy and screw the crunch. I play a list that has at lest 4 armoured sentinels in it and I get stomped on all the time... that said, I do make it bloody hard going for the other player (plasma vet ).

Plasma Vets are great fun aren't they? I find the looks of horror on my marine buddies face hilarious when that "infantry squad" he ignored turns out to be full of ap2 goodness

I know
My guard are geared up to make SM players have a bad day

Eh, if I run them well enough my HB veteran sections can ruin my opponents day.
My current recipe for destruction is: Pop transport with the Exterminators, blast the now sans Rhino Marines with my LRBT and then mop up the survivors with a couple of Infantry sections. I still lose in the end to the far ,ore powerful codex's but the brief look of horror on my opponents face as an entire MEQ squad or equivalent goes down the swanny is priceless.

Sadly though most of my MEQ opponents now either bring: outflanking Space Wolves, Deepstriking on turn1 Grey Knights and triple Vindicator squadrons with a Librarian to give them Invisibility.
Hence, this great and honoured tactic of pop'n blast is less effective than it used to be (though I have been having some interesting results with a certain opponent whom charges in with everything, his Landraider, a couple of Melta Vet sections and a Thunderer )

Still though the Guard are really underpowered and in all honesty Tau should not have been re done, next it should have been CSM and Imperial Guard.

It probably should have been them yes, but hopefully gee-dubs will grant us the honor of a halfway decent codex. We need to get down to the business of purging the heretics/xenos. And the current dex just doesn't cut it

Plasma spam is virtually the only thing that can make IG look really scary, but it also makes them quite pricey, and no matter which unit you give the plasma weapons to (either regular guardsmen, vets or stormtroopers), they can and will usually die very very quickly.

If I manage to gather enough models, I'd like to one day try some crazy infantry blob list with company command squad + kurov's aquila, a few psykers to spam divination, and tons and tons of infantry with plasma rifles and grenade launchers. Perhaps a Russ or two to provide some cover saves (until some overpowered MC blows them up). Picking heaps of models off the table as they die in droves, where's the fun without that.

Who I'm trying to con here, I'll never finish painting such a thing.

Plasma is good. The problem is that it's still +15 pts per gun. On a BS3 model, with a Sv5+ when it gets hot. Awesome.

 TheAvengingKnee wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Typically-Wardian wrote:
Comparisons with everything else. The IG stand up amazingly well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Did you just lose a game to Guard, OP?

I play guard.

Do the statistics look like they stand up amazingly well?

Spoiler:

The AM consistently perform horribly at every tournament, alongside BA.

The AM lose. A lot. That is why people think they are bad.

Also, if you play AM and think they are so good, I want your lists.
In what kind of meta do you play? Does anyone play Eldar?

where did you get that chart at? that is actually really handy.

I got it from here: http://battlebrotherswh40k.blogspot.nl/2014/08/7th-edition-warhammer-40k-army-ranking.html, but the data and graph are originally from Torrent of Fire: http://www.torrentoffire.com/5612/7th-edition-three-months-in

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Plasma is good. The problem is that it's still +15 pts per gun. On a BS3 model, with a Sv5+ when it gets hot. Awesome.

Well, for what it's worth, I seemed to always manage to save my lone Guard plasma gunner about 50-60% of the time when he'd overheat... Meanwhile, my Marines have about a 99.9% guarantee of exploding when their plasma weapons overheat.

Dice really, really hate me.

AM is middle of the pack or slightly below. They have some very good fire power true, but they don't possess the ability to move forward, control the mid field, or take objectives. They are slow in a fast moving environment and do not have the durability to stay around. Many models are over priced for what they do.

True, some armies struggle with armor, but a lot don't.

Now I do well with my guard and win most matches. But I do not play conventional guard, and bring the inquisition. They really multiply the strength of the guard

Middle of the road implies that there are a sizable number of factions that are below them in power-level. The only armies I can think that are weaker than Guard are CSM, with Dark Eldar and Orks being "any given sunday" level with them. That's three codices out of 20, not counting IG itself and pseudo-codices like MT.