New GW Specialist Studio - Including LOTR, Epic, BB, BFG - Small scale Warlord Titan by FW (one-off)

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**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
The reason why I mentioned Judge Dredd and Star Wars is quell the myth that GW's games sell because they have a strong fluff appeal.

They do. Their two greatest things GW has at their disposal are:

1. Their in-house plastics manufacturing capabilities.
2. Their IP.

They do sell games because of their strong fluff appeal. To say anything contrary to that is to deny reality.

I don't deny 40k's strong background, but other posters were claiming that a strong IP was unique to GW. I cited Star Wars as an example that proves otherwise.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

insaniak wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

In the history of mankind, I seriously doubt that people stopped selling something because it was too successful, therefore you can only conclude that sales were poor.

People rarely stop selling something because it is too successful (Flappy Bird aside), but that doesn't mean that something being dropped from a range automatically means that it sells badly. There are all sorts of reasons that companies can choose to drop popular products from their range, not least simply because of their chosen business strategy. (See WotC dropping Star Wars Miniatures despite it for a time outselling D&D, so that they could refocus their resources on D&D and MtG).

When the games that later became the 'Specialist' range were released, GW's standard business model was to run with their two core titles, and a third game that would be supported for a time and then replaced. It didn't matter how popular those third games were... once they hit the point where the next game was imminent, the current one would be dropped if it hadn't faded away on its own already.

The Specialist catalogue no doubt sold worse than the individual games did the first time around, but that would be down emtirely to lack of ongoing support and the fact that they were direct-only. Bringing back those games as rotating splash releases with updated rules and miniatures would, I suspect, do far better than adding a 'Specialist' tag on the website and then largely ignoring it did.

I'm unconvinced to be honest. Like I said earlier, I think it's to late in the day for GW to swoop in and act like it's the 90s again. Too much water under the bridge and too many rivals making great games, these days.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kilkrazy wrote:
methebest wrote:
Skipped the last 8 pages so idk if this has come up.

So i spoke with my local manager today, he got the memo, trouble is it says they will be looking into bringing back the older games.(as well as making new ones)

So someone could decide they are not viable and we wont see them again.

Viability depends on a number of factors. Space Hulk 3rd edition was a huge success because the original game had great heritage. GW knew how many they had sold between 1986 and 1998 or whatever its lifespan was. They must have estimated pretty well how many copies they could sell of a new edition, and specced and budgeted it really well.

Space Hulk was a triumph all round. It was a smash success for GW and satisfied players with good rules and great models.

I don't see why GW cannot pull that off with several of the other old SGs. Some of them also present the possibility of good expansion sets. A starter box of Blood Bowl containing Humans versus Orcs would open the gates for producing boxed sets of Elves, Dwarves and so on. A better approach would be to sell a starter set containing the rules and terrain, to be bought alongside one or more boxed sets of teams, and have six different teams available from the start.

What I think thye need to avoid is the idea that every SG can be infinitely extended as a selling line. There is a point at which a game is done and trying to go beyond that brings reducing returns. This is what happened to WHFB and is happening to 40K, I believe.

To summarise, GW have the opportunity and need to fill their massive retail chain that accounts for 2/3rds of company turnover with a variety of games.

They have a back catalogue that can be re-organised and brought up to date with revised rules and new plastic models.

They ought to be able to design some new games as well, without them being crap. If they want to set these within the recognised WH/40K universes, that's fine as long as the rules and figures are good. What they don't want to do is try and milk things beyind their natural life.

Returning again to Space Hulk. First edition was great. Death Wing was a good supplement. The next supplement was a bit crap. The next edition was worse still. It all turned into gak because GW tried to milk it too far, and players gave it up.

Scroll on 15 years and GW were able to launch a completely rejuvenated 3rd edition and had the sense not to try and milk it with endless bits of supplements intended to sell more figures.

Even if GW take a sensible approach, I still remain unconvinced that they can compete with smaller, more nimble rivals.

For example, say GW decided to release a new version of Mordheim for around £80, and it's got rules, and some great miniatures in it, say 10 humans and 10 Skaven, and some ruins.

A high quality release.

But, compare it to Frostgrave, another great rule set for £12 + box of cultists for £20 + wizard for £8 = £40.

Obviously, this is a lot cheaper than the new Mordheim, and it's cheaper still if you split with a friend/gaming group.

Now, if you have the choice between 2 good rulesets, and 2 sets of equal quality miniatures, it's more than likely that people will opt for the cheaper option most times.

The GW brand will help, but new gamers who have never heard of SG or weren't around in the 1990s, may not be all nostalgic.

**Yodhrin**

New gamers who weren't around in the 90's aren't going to be the ones pushing these revitalised SGs(assuming they're good) in clubs & stores around the world though, are they. They're going to be the ones walking in to clubs and stores looking for a skirmish game or a space ship fleet combat game or a sci-fi mass battle wargame and being faced with a choice between on the one hand the active Necromunda//Mordheim/BFG/Epic group with several stubborn old gits like me who've been playing SGs all this time regardless combined with returning vets who have been lured back by said revitalised SGs and any friends they've been able to rope in, and on the other hand whatever small vestigial group is still, through personal preference or sheer bitterness towards GW, clinging to whichever "other game" in the same category had started to get a foothold there beforehand.

Obviously that won't be a universal experience, and it won't be even as close to universal as it was during the 90's, but IMO it will be a fairly ubiquitous one providing FW/SGD do this right.

Which is rather the point; GW's stuff doesn't need to be universally liked, it just needs to be liked by enough people to reach the critical mass whereby it's more likely than not that any club you walk into will have an active and enthusiastic GW scene, at which point inertia takes over. That critical mass is there, enough people like GW's IPs to sustain it, the problem GW had in recent years was they took that inertia for granted and eroded or eliminated all the things that supported it. Restoring SGs, particularly if the FW guys are really given the resources and creative freedom necessary to pull a Heresy-scenario on them, will go a long way.

**TheWaspinator**

I'm wondering if this stuff is happening because Sigmar bombed and GW is desperate to bring back anything that might sell.

**Warhams-77**

H.B.M.C. True, plastic is more likely but Space Hulk, EF and Calth have quite a large amount of card board included, in addition to lots of miniatures (especially Calth), thick board even, and they could add papercard buildings to an Epic standalone box instead. The styroform era is surely over though

Space Marine 1st and 2nd and also Titan Legion had paper card buildings with plastic bottom and top so the new Specialist Games team could choose to do this again. 3rd contained plastic ruins, also a probable addition to a box.

Graphite, it was not my intent to badmouth 3rd and 4th ed

The rules of 3rd just did not work for many players at that time as they were quite a break from 2nd which was a favourite among tabletop players and GWs third main system with tons of articles in White Dwarf and Citadel Journal. 3rd ended that. Personally I prefer NetEpic (and the original 2nd Ed) and E:A over 3rd Ed which piqued my interest but wasnt what I was looking for at the time. The later Armageddon made the concepts finally work for me.

**zedmeister**

TheWaspinator wrote:
I'm wondering if this stuff is happening because Sigmar bombed and GW is desperate to bring back anything that might sell.

According to the Rumour mongers, this has been in the pipeline since before AoS. Personally, I reckon the incoming CEO came in, saw the sales decline, isn't a fool and actually understood what it meant, looked around and saw the successful parts of the business, turned to them and said "You're doing well. Make me more money - here's more freedom to do it"

**Silent Puffin?**

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Would they do this sort of thing again?

No. I can see the possibility of plastic and card buildings (like Necromunda had) for games that require a lot of terrain but for Epic it will probably be all plastic, basically the ruins sprue from Epic:40k but expanded.

I can't see a return of the old style cardstock buildings though.

**RoperPG**

TheWaspinator wrote:
I'm wondering if this stuff is happening because Sigmar bombed and GW is desperate to bring back anything that might sell.

Unlikely. Betrayal at Calth would have had to be at least in the final stages of development before AoS was released, and from Hastings' post this 'new studio' was responsible for it.

More likely reception of BAC has been so good they've decided to press ahead with other projects.

Prior to the LotR years, GW generally had a support model of 40K + WFB + A.N.Other.
With LotR 'done' as a main product line, it looks like they're exploring the 3 line model again, with the output from this new studio as the 3rd.
GW stated they were performing a review of their product lines late last year, and considering the statement they view themselves as a miniatures company, it doesn't take a genius to work out they must know they are sat on a potential goldmine of IP's they've not actively exploited for a decade.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

zedmeister wrote:
TheWaspinator wrote:
I'm wondering if this stuff is happening because Sigmar bombed and GW is desperate to bring back anything that might sell.

According to the Rumour mongers, this has been in the pipeline since before AoS. Personally, I reckon the incoming CEO came in, saw the sales decline, isn't a fool and actually understood what it meant, looked around and saw the successful parts of the business, turned to them and said "You're doing well. Make me more money - here's more freedom to do it"

That would be the common sense approach adopted by 99% of other businesses, but this is GW.

Kirby probably thinks common sense is a Britpop group from the 90s.

**reds8n**

.... so we will finally get the long promised plastic Thunderhawk, warhound etc etc.

Just not for 40k

**Warhams-77**

Games Workshop had so many rivals in the 80s and 90s, Do_I_Not_Like_That, the independent store catalogues of these times are full of competitors. BattleTech for example was very strong back then, but there were lots of other games available. Every RPG company offered their own tactical (war-)games and also board games in addition to their main ranges.

The German Schmidt Spiele bombarded the market with all kinds of board games mostly just using the Dark Eye brand without any connection to that (in this case locally) successful RPG brand and there was Palladium, TSR, FASA, ICE and many more on the international market. I have catalogues that consist of pages full of that stuff.

Not too mention all the small companies and their tabletop skirmishers like Killzone and later during the end of the 90s direct competitors like Warzone, Chronopia, Demonworld...

It is great to have such a variety available again. I love my Forgefather army from Mantic and that these companies are getting better and better.

But GW was against a strong competiton back then and they did quite well. Many other companies did not and ceased business.

**SilverDevilfish**

TheWaspinator wrote:
I'm wondering if this stuff is happening because Sigmar bombed and GW is desperate to bring back anything that might sell.

Eh, I think it's more so the changes Rountree wanted to make are starting to come into action. GW may change a lot in the next year.

Hopefully Rountree has figured out that Kirby was insane and Alan Merritt is terrible at his job and will avoid any "advice" those two have.

Hell if this keeps it up I might have a reason to buy a GW product this year.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

reds8n wrote:
.... so we will finally get the long promised plastic Thunderhawk, warhound etc etc.

Just not for 40k

The day we see a plastic thunderhawk, is the same day Scotland wins the football (soccer) world cup, with Lord Lucan presenting the trophy to the Scotland Captain

**Hanskrampf**

SilverDevilfish wrote:
TheWaspinator wrote:
I'm wondering if this stuff is happening because Sigmar bombed and GW is desperate to bring back anything that might sell.

Eh, I think it's more so the changes Rountree wanted to make are starting to come into action. GW may change a lot in the next year.

Hopefully Rountree has figured out that Kirby was insane and Alan Merritt is terrible at his job and will avoid any "advice" those two have.

Hell if this keeps it up I might have a reason to buy a GW product this year.

This would be a dream scenario.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

SilverDevilfish wrote:
TheWaspinator wrote:
I'm wondering if this stuff is happening because Sigmar bombed and GW is desperate to bring back anything that might sell.

Eh, I think it's more so the changes Rountree wanted to make are starting to come into action. GW may change a lot in the next year.

Hopefully Rountree has figured out that Kirby was insane and Alan Merritt is terrible at his job and will avoid any "advice" those two have.

Hell if this keeps it up I might have a reason to buy a GW product this year.

It's a bit hard to ignore your boss

In one job, I got away with it by relocating 400 miles, but that's not an option for everybody

**streetsamurai**

Frostgrave mighg be a good game. And it might be a whole lot cheaper than a revamped mordeheim. But, good luck finding someone who plays it, or even sell it (outside of UK, where it seems to be doing good). Thats why these specialist games will work, their market presence and name is enormous. Most people only know of GW and only buy products from GW

**Lithlandis Stormcrow**

I am... Tentatively hopeful.

**SilverDevilfish**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
SilverDevilfish wrote:
TheWaspinator wrote:
I'm wondering if this stuff is happening because Sigmar bombed and GW is desperate to bring back anything that might sell.

Eh, I think it's more so the changes Rountree wanted to make are starting to come into action. GW may change a lot in the next year.

Hopefully Rountree has figured out that Kirby was insane and Alan Merritt is terrible at his job and will avoid any "advice" those two have.

Hell if this keeps it up I might have a reason to buy a GW product this year.

It's a bit hard to ignore your boss

In one job, I got away with it by relocating 400 miles, but that's not an option for everybody

You ignore him by appealing to his bosses, aka you get the rest of the board on your side and have them shut down Kirby. Can't imagine Kirby is too popular with the shareholders right now.

And if they fire him because he wasn't listening to Kirby, but was still getting results... well that means a better company will likely pick him up.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

streetsamurai wrote:
Frostgrave mighg be a good game. And it might be a whole lot cheaper than a revamped mordeheim. But, good luck finding someone who plays it, or even sell it (outside of UK, where it seems to be doing good). Thats why these specialist games will work, their market presence and name is enormous. Most people only know of GW and only buy products from GW

I've just been going through my records and hey, bingo! I just found the PDFs for all the Mordheim rules/expansions...and epic...

Oh, look, there's some cheap non-GW minis from a million different companies, that look the part.

So, free rules, and a box of minis for £20 or less. I'm good to go. Who needs GW? Not me. And neither do my friends. Here's some free rules for you.

I'm not saying GW can't pull this off, I'm just saying it's not going to be straightforward as some people think it will be.

**ekwatts**

I really don't understand some of the negativity here, although I think it's now par for the course no matter the actual good/bad nature of the news from GW.

So, from what I've gathered in between the outpouring of negativity is that Forgeworld is being expanded (ie: more people, more resources) into a new, larger, more integrated department, with the freedom to explore the possibility of bringing back games like Epic, Necromunda, Mordheim, etc. That is brilliant news. Why is that brilliant news? Because the very nature of the fact that they have been imbued with the potential of bringing these old titles back in some form precludes a negative response because even if that new organisation decides that it cannot figure out a cost-effective, profit-making or just an exciting way to bring back, for instance, Epic, that means there will be no change to the current status quo. If that decision is made, we likely won't hear about it, and nothing fundamentally changes from the point we're at now. Therefore, the negativity just seems pathological at this point. Just quit it until we hear something more concrete.

Anyway, regardless, Betrayal at Calth suggests that this new organisation will have access to plastics manufacturing. Again, great news.

Furthermore, it might be that they simply don't bring Epic, Necromunda, Aeronautica, Mordheim, etc, etc back in the forms they were in previously. It might be that they reimagine them in broader formats, like combining Inquisitor and Necromunda, for instance (a popular fan mashup).

It's the possibilities I'm excited about. New epic in plastic? Yes please. But lets see what happens.

**godswildcard**

Well I just finally broke down after 14 years in the hobby and bought a FW Thunderhawk.

...which by the laws of my luck means a plastic $200 Thunderhawk will be coming out soon.

Glad I could take one for the team. You're all welcome. I only did it for you guys!

On topic, I am wondering if this will be a complete re-vamp of all product lines or if it's just going to be starter boxes and what not.

**Alpharius**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I'm not saying GW can't pull this off, I'm just saying it's not going to be straightforward as some people think it will be.

Right, we get that - you've certainly said it enough...in this thread!

So, other than that...what else do you expect to accomplish here?

**Bull0**

To be honest, for all we know the "bringing back" of those games might simply be a cryptic reference to all the videogames currently in development, and they're just transferring this licensing operation over to Forge World as a rebranded separate division. Need to wait to hear more. Nothing wrong with being optimistic about it though.

**Mymearan**

I love the idea that someone put forward of doing big boxed sets with expansions. No blisters or single characters in plastic, not even separate gang/team boxes, just one big starter box followed by expansions/campaign boxes, a la Deathstorm for 40k, with expansion rules, maybe some terrain, and a couple of gangs/teams. Single models and add-on pieces can be sold in resin through Forge World. Sure, it's more restrictive for the players, but it might be a more sustainable business model by lowering the barrier to entry by keeping it simple for new players, keeping the number of SKUs and shelf space lower and decreasing the risk inherent in doing a ton of products for each range.

**Bull0**

godswildcard wrote:
Well I just finally broke down after 14 years in the hobby and bought a FW Thunderhawk.

...which by the laws of my luck means a plastic $200 Thunderhawk will be coming out soon.

Glad I could take one for the team. You're all welcome. I only did it for you guys!

On topic, I am wondering if this will be a complete re-vamp of all product lines or if it's just going to be starter boxes and what not.

"That's it guys - we've sold the last one, finally - hit the big button marked Plastic Thunderhawk"

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mymearan wrote:
I love the idea that someone put forward of doing big boxed sets with expansions. No blisters or single characters in plastic, not even separate gang/team boxes, just one big starter box followed by expansions/campaign boxes, a la Deathstorm for 40k, with expansion rules, maybe some terrain, and a couple of gangs/teams. Single models can be sold in resin through Forge World. Sure, it's more restrictive for the players, but it might be a sustainable business model.

Indeed, we've seen a little of this already with the dark vengeance expansion boxes.

**wildger**

Warhams-77 wrote:
Games Workshop had so many rivals in the 80s and 90s, Do_I_Not_Like_That, the independent store catalogues of these times are full of competitors. BattleTech for example was very strong back then, but there were lots of other games available. Every RPG company offered their own tactical (war-)games and also board games in addition to their main ranges.

The German Schmidt Spiele bombarded the market with all kinds of board games mostly just using the Dark Eye brand without any connection to that (in this case locally) successful RPG brand and there was Palladium, TSR, FASA, ICE and many more on the international market. I have catalogues that consist of pages full of that stuff.

Not too mention all the small companies and their tabletop skirmishers like Killzone and later during the end of the 90s direct competitors like Warzone, Chronopia, Demonworld...

It is great to have such a variety available again. I love my Forgefather army from Mantic and that these companies are getting better and better.

But GW was against a strong competiton back then and they did quite well. Many other companies did not and ceased business.

Back in the 80 and 90's, the other competitors were so tiny and lack of resources to go against anything that GW put forward. Nowadays, other companies can make better games and better quality products with a cheaper price. Other than the nostaglia effect, none of these specialist game is attractive anymore.

**Flamekebab**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I've just been going through my records and hey, bingo! I just found the PDFs for all the Mordheim rules/expansions...and epic...

Oh, look, there's some cheap non-GW minis from a million different companies, that look the part.

So, free rules, and a box of minis for £20 or less. I'm good to go. Who needs GW? Not me. And neither do my friends. Here's some free rules for you.

Whilst it's wonderful that we now have the option to do things like this the "turn-key solution" that a boxed game with commercial support entails shouldn't be overlooked. It might not be of as much interest to us old fogeys but in an age of video games and mass tablet ownership the slightest barrier to entry can be enough to turn away potential customers. If something looks to be a complicated mess then a parent is less likely to pick it up, surely?

Furthermore if one already has a group of friends who play these things then the notion of grabbing some random minis and a handful of PDFs isn't intimidating. That may well not be the case for people who don't have the kind of experience we do.

One of the major strengths of 40K is that it's such an institution. One doesn't have to make friends with some people and slowly move them towards collecting and playing - turn up to nearly any gaming club, anywhere in the world, and chances are someone will have a 40K army ready to go. A packaged, unified product creates that kind of ubiquity in a way alternative minis and PDF collections don't.

**Malika2**

wildger wrote:
Warhams-77 wrote:
Games Workshop had so many rivals in the 80s and 90s, Do_I_Not_Like_That, the independent store catalogues of these times are full of competitors. BattleTech for example was very strong back then, but there were lots of other games available. Every RPG company offered their own tactical (war-)games and also board games in addition to their main ranges.

The German Schmidt Spiele bombarded the market with all kinds of board games mostly just using the Dark Eye brand without any connection to that (in this case locally) successful RPG brand and there was Palladium, TSR, FASA, ICE and many more on the international market. I have catalogues that consist of pages full of that stuff.

Not too mention all the small companies and their tabletop skirmishers like Killzone and later during the end of the 90s direct competitors like Warzone, Chronopia, Demonworld...

It is great to have such a variety available again. I love my Forgefather army from Mantic and that these companies are getting better and better.

But GW was against a strong competiton back then and they did quite well. Many other companies did not and ceased business.

Back in the 80 and 90's, the other competitors were so tiny and lack of resources to go against anything that GW put forward. Nowadays, other companies can make better games and better quality products with a cheaper price. Other than the nostaglia effect, none of these specialist game is attractive anymore.

Lol, is it just me, or did you read that previous post and just went "I'm gonna ignore all the other mentioned past competitors"?

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Alpharius wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I'm not saying GW can't pull this off, I'm just saying it's not going to be straightforward as some people think it will be.

Right, we get that - you've certainly said it enough...in this thread!

So, other than that...what else do you expect to accomplish here?

I'm just providing some old fashioned constructive criticism.

I've been comparing old SG with similar games from rival companies, commentating on the price, rule sets, affordability etc etc

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Flamekebab wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

I've just been going through my records and hey, bingo! I just found the PDFs for all the Mordheim rules/expansions...and epic...

Oh, look, there's some cheap non-GW minis from a million different companies, that look the part.

So, free rules, and a box of minis for £20 or less. I'm good to go. Who needs GW? Not me. And neither do my friends. Here's some free rules for you.

Whilst it's wonderful that we now have the option to do things like this the "turn-key solution" that a boxed game with commercial support entails shouldn't be overlooked. It might not be of as much interest to us old fogeys but in an age of video games and mass tablet ownership the slightest barrier to entry can be enough to turn away potential customers. If something looks to be a complicated mess then a parent is less likely to pick it up, surely?

Furthermore if one already has a group of friends who play these things then the notion of grabbing some random minis and a handful of PDFs isn't intimidating. That may well not be the case for people who don't have the kind of experience we do.

One of the major strengths of 40K is that it's such an institution. One doesn't have to make friends with some people and slowly move them towards collecting and playing - turn up to nearly any gaming club, anywhere in the world, and chances are someone will have a 40K army ready to go. A packaged, unified product creates that kind of ubiquity in a way alternative minis and PDF collections don't.

I had completely forgotten about video games as a factor working against miniature wargames sales

As much as I like Mordheim, if I were faced with the choice of the videogame or the miniatures game, these days I'd probably opt for the video game.

**H.B.M.C.**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I've just been going through my records and hey, bingo! I just found the PDFs for all the Mordheim rules/expansions...and epic...

Oh, look, there's some cheap non-GW minis from a million different companies, that look the part.

So, free rules, and a box of minis for £20 or less. I'm good to go. Who needs GW? Not me. And neither do my friends. Here's some free rules for you.

I'm not saying GW can't pull this off, I'm just saying it's not going to be straightforward as some people think it will be.

Uhh! We get it already.

Give it a rest. Get off the

.

[EDIT]: Seems Alpha beat me too it.

[EDIT 2]: I don't think you know what "constructive" means.

**Mymearan**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
streetsamurai wrote:
Frostgrave mighg be a good game. And it might be a whole lot cheaper than a revamped mordeheim. But, good luck finding someone who plays it, or even sell it (outside of UK, where it seems to be doing good). Thats why these specialist games will work, their market presence and name is enormous. Most people only know of GW and only buy products from GW

I've just been going through my records and hey, bingo! I just found the PDFs for all the Mordheim rules/expansions...and epic...

Oh, look, there's some cheap non-GW minis from a million different companies, that look the part.

So, free rules, and a box of minis for £20 or less. I'm good to go. Who needs GW? Not me. And neither do my friends. Here's some free rules for you.

I'm not saying GW can't pull this off, I'm just saying it's not going to be straightforward as some people think it will be.

Now let's see how many people in an average gaming group or FLGS community will be willing and able to start playing these old, unsupported versions of games with you, researching alternate models, etc, when they have the option to simply buy a box in a GW store and have everything they need to get going right there... my guess is very few, unless no other option exists. I have done it with Necromunda in my group, but if there was an updated, official version available in a nice box I doubt anyone would have agreed to play the Community Edition with me.