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 Wyzilla wrote:

 Chaos Spawn wrote:
People still don't seem to get what I mean. I'm not only talking about CSM, but all of Chaos, including the Gods.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Chaos in less evil. People talk about the Night Lords. READ THE FLUFF. They ARE a Traitor Legion but they DO NOT worship any individual Chaos God or even the idea of Chaos Undivided, therefore they cannot be classed as Chaos!

Now you're just getting ridiculous. Night Lords suffer from delusions of being renegades and not agents of Chaos, yet they're led by a Daemon Prince and their assault marines worship Chaos itself and turn into possessed Marines. Plus the lot of them suffer from chaotic taint and mutation, endemic to all those who end up an agent of the Chaos Gods. Chaos doesn't ask if you want to serve their will, you don't need to worship it. They just decide you're a pawn they want to move.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
A clean death at the hands of orbital bombardment or virus bombing is kind compared to what the Night Lords will do to you.

The Imperium is less evil, because it does not cause unnecessary suffering. Where it kills, it kills cleanly (unless you act against them, in which case it's justified). Imperial torturers are grim-faced and furious.

Chaos is more evil, because it revels in causing suffering. When it kills, it does so in the most gruesome, horrific way possible, often for no better reason than because it enjoys it. Chaos torturers are grinning madly and laughing.

Death is not the end in the Imperium. Your soul is then tortured by Chaplains before being shipped to Terra and fed to the False Emperor.

And now you're just trolling. i.e I have no answer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Chaos Spawn wrote:

 KharnsRightHand wrote:
Yea, nah brah. The Imperium is evil as a matter of maintaining control and keeping Chaos from destroying everything. Chaos is just trying to destroy everything. Just 'cause. Laying worlds to waste, spreading plagues and disease everywhere possible, killing, torturing, manipulation against your friends and allies, devouring souls, all for no good reason other than it's a good time and a way to beat each other and conquer the galaxy first, or destroy it first.

No, it's done for the Gods, who you can't blame because they are animalistic and work on instinct.

No they aren't. The Chaos Gods are completely cognitive, sentient beings fully aware of their actions and the suffering they cause. FFS we see Tzeentch actually holding a conversation with this Court in the final Ahriman book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Chaos Spawn wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
You aren't getting it then. The Chaos Gods want to pretty much drown the materiel realm in Chaos. They have their followers kill, maim, burn, and do all sorts of horrible things to increase their power. The Imperium is evil because it has no choice but to do so to ensure Mankind's survival. Chaos and it's followers are evil because they wanted to be.

I created this thread and so I do get it. The Chaos Gods do not only create evil. Without Khorne there would be no bravery, honour, glory or valour. Without Tzeentch there would be no change, Magic, hope or knowledge. Without Nurgle there would be no death. And without Slaanesh there would be no pleasure or happiness. Could the Imperium truly claim to give all this as powerfully as Chaos? And could the galaxy go on without all this?

...

Stop watching the fething Alfa Legion videos, it's purely fanfiction. The Chaos Gods don't create positive emotions, they are the product of emotion. There was plenty of happiness and pleasure prior to the Fall, indeed there probably was more considering the Eldar weren't having their souls raped for eternity and their gods devoured by She Who Thirsts. The Chaos Gods don't cause gak besides suffering, they're a literal cancer upon reality formed from the nightmares of life.

By all of this logic, Chaos cannot possibly be considered evil because they simply represent human evil, information which case the Imperium is evils any Chaos does not exist. Also, if the Night Lords are Chaos, which I won't oppose for now, so what? I never saw them attempt to eradicate a species, oily a single planet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Chaos Spawn wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Chaos Spawn wrote:
People still don't seem to get what I mean. I'm not only talking about CSM, but all of Chaos, including the Gods.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Chaos in less evil. People talk about the Night Lords. READ THE FLUFF. They ARE a Traitor Legion but they DO NOT worship any individual Chaos God or even the idea of Chaos Undivided, therefore they cannot be classed as Chaos!

Now you're just getting ridiculous. Night Lords suffer from delusions of being renegades and not agents of Chaos, yet they're led by a Daemon Prince and their assault marines worship Chaos itself and turn into possessed Marines. Plus the lot of them suffer from chaotic taint and mutation, endemic to all those who end up an agent of the Chaos Gods. Chaos doesn't ask if you want to serve their will, you don't need to worship it. They just decide you're a pawn they want to move.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
A clean death at the hands of orbital bombardment or virus bombing is kind compared to what the Night Lords will do to you.

The Imperium is less evil, because it does not cause unnecessary suffering. Where it kills, it kills cleanly (unless you act against them, in which case it's justified). Imperial torturers are grim-faced and furious.

Chaos is more evil, because it revels in causing suffering. When it kills, it does so in the most gruesome, horrific way possible, often for no better reason than because it enjoys it. Chaos torturers are grinning madly and laughing.

Death is not the end in the Imperium. Your soul is then tortured by Chaplains before being shipped to Terra and fed to the False Emperor.

And now you're just trolling.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Chaos Spawn wrote:

 KharnsRightHand wrote:
Yea, nah brah. The Imperium is evil as a matter of maintaining control and keeping Chaos from destroying everything. Chaos is just trying to destroy everything. Just 'cause. Laying worlds to waste, spreading plagues and disease everywhere possible, killing, torturing, manipulation against your friends and allies, devouring souls, all for no good reason other than it's a good time and a way to beat each other and conquer the galaxy first, or destroy it first.

No, it's done for the Gods, who you can't blame because they are animalistic and work on instinct.

No they aren't. The Chaos Gods are completely cognitive, sentient beings fully aware of their actions and the suffering they cause. FFS we see Tzeentch actually holding a conversation with this Court in the final Ahriman book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Chaos Spawn wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
You aren't getting it then. The Chaos Gods want to pretty much drown the materiel realm in Chaos. They have their followers kill, maim, burn, and do all sorts of horrible things to increase their power. The Imperium is evil because it has no choice but to do so to ensure Mankind's survival. Chaos and it's followers are evil because they wanted to be.

I created this thread and so I do get it. The Chaos Gods do not only create evil. Without Khorne there would be no bravery, honour, glory or valour. Without Tzeentch there would be no change, Magic, hope or knowledge. Without Nurgle there would be no death. And without Slaanesh there would be no pleasure or happiness. Could the Imperium truly claim to give all this as powerfully as Chaos? And could the galaxy go on without all this?

...

Stop watching the fething Alfa Legion videos, it's purely fanfiction. The Chaos Gods don't create positive emotions, they are the product of emotion. There was plenty of happiness and pleasure prior to the Fall, indeed there probably was more considering the Eldar weren't having their souls raped for eternity and their gods devoured by She Who Thirsts. The Chaos Gods don't cause gak besides suffering, they're a literal cancer upon reality formed from the nightmares of life.

By all of this logic, Chaos cannot possibly be considered evil because they simply represent human evil, in which case the Imperium is evil and Chaos does not exist. Also, if the Night Lords are Chaos, which I won't oppose for now, so what? I never saw them attempt to eradicate a species, only a single planet.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Yeah, lets stand up to the injustice and racist society of the Imperial Hierarchy by pillaging, raping, murdering, sacrificing, enslaving and infecting every innocent civillian that had no choice in the way they were brought up.

It worked for most of human history, why not in 40k?

Chaos is not evil. It is a force of nature. The IOM is needfully evil.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Chaos Spawn wrote:

By all of this logic, Chaos cannot possibly be considered evil because they simply represent human evil, in which case the Imperium is evil and Chaos does not exist. Also, if the Night Lords are Chaos, which I won't oppose for now, so what? I never saw them attempt to eradicate a species, only a single planet.

No, by that logic, Chaos is not evil because it has no choice in the matter. It is a reflection of what sentient beings do.

Right answer, wrong reason.

Looks like we've got another Emperor Norton II here guys...

I don't get the reference.

 curran12 wrote:
Nah. Chaos is just another flavor of evil. The Imperium is also evil, but don't delude yourself into thinking there are 'good guys' out there in 40k.

Tau seem relatively "good". I'm really out of the loop with fluff though so don't hold me to that

 EngulfedObject wrote:
Anyone who seriously thinks the Imperium is more or as evil as Chaos has a pretty twisted view of things. The Night Lords will flay you alive for fun, and the Emperor's Children... well let's not even go there. The Imperium does plenty of evil things but it doesn't exist to do evil. Chaos pretty much does (or what do you think Khorne berserkers do?).

Oh and you also have things like the Iron Warriors feeding their slave workers by grinding the dead ones into nutritional paste. Or the Purge, who only exist to exterminate all life. And comparing the 1000 psykers a day to what the Word Bearers do is ridiculous. I get all warm and fuzzy inside thinking about how nice Chaos is.

Yo, where'd you read that?? That Iron Warriors worker paste is freaky stuff, man....

BaconUprising wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Nah. Chaos is just another flavor of evil. The Imperium is also evil, but don't delude yourself into thinking there are 'good guys' out there in 40k.

Tau seem relatively "good". I'm really out of the loop with fluff though so don't hold me to that

While Tau are one of the more "relatively" good factions, if you read into their fluff there are some very, very dark implications. If I remember right, Mind Control, certain species being treated as second class citizens, and other things. It's just not as obviously and in your face grim dark like most of the other factions are. I might be wrong though.

Ok, people. there seems to be a serious disconnect between the reality of 40k and what some people think it should be instead. I'm sure somebody here has heard of Machiavelli. He was a Florentine diplomat that wrote "The Prince", and in it he says some pretty real stuff. He basically says "Great evil must be done to preserve the greater good". To put things in perspective, he lived in a world where his small Republic was assaulted constantly and held hostage by bigger forces- the French took gak over, the Germans threatened, the Pope raged, and the other Italians were little pricks. There was a real need for a dude to get his hands dirty.

The main reason why Florence wasn't able to be a major player was because of how leaders behaved. Most were idealistic fools that believed in morals and kindness and other unnecessary junk. They would be indecisive, afraid to offend or act, and preferred to be "good" and "moral" rather than do what had to be done. So Machiavelli took one look at them and saw that a different leader needed to rise.

This is where the Imperium steps in. Just like Renaissance Florence, the Imperium is assailed on all sides by enemies- Orks, Tyranids, Necrons, Chaos, Dark Eldar, etc. These enemies cannot be reasoned with. They cannot be talked to. It's like... Orks can be bought off, they can. You can bribe them to leave you alone, but only if you give them weapons. And inevitably, those weapons will be turned against you in a short time. So in the end, the only options are to fight or die against these monsters.

Machiavelli's main idea is basically that if you're in charge, you have a responsibility and duty to your people- if you're in charge, you'd better be ready and willing to commit some pretty atrocious acts to protect them. Because if you don't, the forces of Chaos will corrupt your people. A rogue psycher can nuke an entire city. A planet that isn't cleansed of the Ork spores could see an entire system fall under a future Waaagh. The threats are infinite and your people are not expendable. There's another thing he said- you can't be a saint and a ruler. It's one or the other. Because to rule a group of people in tumultuous times means you're gonna have to be willing to commit some pretty evil acts in the sake of the greater good.

So anyways, that's my point. The Imperium does things because it has to. If it doesn't, it'll get swallowed up like Florence. Unfortunately for the Imperium, Florence only suffered a few humiliations, an occupation, and a couple of close shaves with complete bankruptcy. The Imperium risks absolute death. So yeah, the Imperium is evil because it has to, so feth off with that comparison to Chaos. Chaos does stuff because it can, not because it has to. Machiavelli said that being TOO evil was also a bad thing. A balance has to emerge, and Chaos is anything but balanced. They're just looking out to destroy and rape and burn. The Imperium wants you to live.

TL;DR:

 Selym wrote:
The IOM is needfully evil.

 Selym wrote:
TL;DR:

 Selym wrote:
The IOM is needfully evil.

Essentially what urbanknight4 said with his anecdote, but his explanation explains why they're needfully evil.

@ curran12, BaconUprising & War Kitten:

It's all a matter of degrees. Nobody is good in 40K. But relative to the Dark Eldar, the Eldar and Exodites are good; and in relation to the thread topic, the IoM is relatively good compared to Chaos. But the simple fact remains that, by necessity brought on by the nature of the 40K universe, everyone is evil.

The Iron Warriors using their slaves as food comes from "The Siege of Castellax", one of the Space Marine battle novels. It's alright in my opinion.

Mudrat wrote:
The Iron Warriors using their slaves as food comes from "The Siege of Castellax", one of the Space Marine battle novels. It's alright in my opinion.

Brootal, dood

I really need to get started reading the books. It's just that thanks to uni I haven't had much time (or inclination to, after reading Space Marine)

All the factions are evil to differing extents, there can be enormous differences in gradients of evil between certain factions, no one faction can justify its evil purely as 'necessity' since they all indulge in far more than what is 'necessary' in numerous documented cases throughout the fluff where they do actions which are evil or immoral but could easily have been removed or altered with better consequences. Attempting to justify a faction as being the 'good guy' of the setting and arguing that it is justified in all its actions misses the point, in my opinion, of 40k considerably. Ultimately though everyone is differing levels of evil.

 Anemone wrote:
All the factions are evil to differing extents, there can be enormous differences in gradients of evil between certain factions, no one faction can justify its evil purely as 'necessity' since they all indulge in far more than what is 'necessary' in numerous documented cases throughout the fluff where they do actions which are evil or immoral but could easily have been removed or altered with better consequences. Attempting to justify a faction as being the 'good guy' of the setting and arguing that it is justified in all its actions misses the point, in my opinion, of 40k considerably. Ultimately though everyone is differing levels of evil.

And who would be evil to what degree?

Oh, well, to be honest I didn't really feel like joining in the conversation in nuance, more just making the point that everyone's bad in the setting.

However if you want a matter of degree, and more specifically I assume an answer to your question, I'm afraid you'll be disappointed because, though they are also of course a horrid and evil organization which ought to be replaced by something far better, Chaos is definitively, in my opinion, more evil than the Imperium.

I'll grant that I think Chaos could have been done better, and more morally ambiguous, if it was treated as more of a force of nature with no inherent moral qualities (Change need not always be for the worse, Life need not only end and such) but the fluff has overwhelmingly chosen to depict the Chaos Gods as entities with very anthropomorphic desires to kill and torture people. I can't remember the last time I read Fluff in which Tzeentch had nothing akin to a goal, simply represented the observable phenomenon of change, and thus adherents to it used their powers for something benign like reformation of a decayed institution or, quite honestly, simply pointless change like they grew taller or forgot something or the near endless Changes occurring every millisecond even as you read this single word. Change is, after all, a ridiculously ENORMOUS purview.

But, to my knowledge, virtually every plot is about killing, torturing, damning or some combination of the three. Not that I'm an expert on Daemon Fluff. I would prefer a setting in which they were far more neutral forces capable of being channelled for different purposes by whosoever wishes to with the great danger they pose being that use of the power is inherently dangerous to the operation of reality but, to my knowledge, the Four and most of their servants have shown a very strong desire to only ever do harm to anyone. For example I know of no Chaos Forces who are anymore friendly to Aliens now that they are free of the Imperium's mandated xenophobia. Nor, for example, do they tragically treat commoners much better since every Chaos group I've read about tends to simply be a brutal martial aristocracy practising some form of slavery. Even that time when millions flocked to Abaddon because they thought he'd help them get a better life he simply had them all instantly enslaved and sent to horrible conditions when one would think, from a pragmatic point of view, encouraging dissent by presenting yourself as a far more desirable hegemon to live under would have helped Abaddon's cause greatly. It is, after all, something that has occurred throughout human history.

Unfortunately the truth is that GW doesn't play Chaos followers as very different, ideologically, to the Imperium beyond often owing allegiance to a different higher power (Chaos Gods as opposed to the Emperor) or choosing to hold allegiance to themselves only instead. I agree Chaos could have been done more interesting, could have been done by making it that Chaos followers don't need to simply emulate Imperium style settings with Daemons and pointless death thrown in, but I've not personally encountered in the Fluff that Chaos followers ever take advantage of their ideological freedom to form a new ideology which isn't simply more 'kill' and 'torture' and 'might makes right' in some form. Not that you'd imagine a Tzeentch or Nurgle group of followers should even be primarily interested in Combat but, hey, that's what we get for having a War Game, it wouldn't be interesting to have extensive information of groups not primarily devoted to or associated with war.

To be clear though this does not reduce the immorality or evil of other factions which wish to wipe out all life, innocent or not, threatening or not from the galaxy but them; the Tyranids or Imperium (I remember in the newest Fluff that Necron no longer require extinction, becoming a tributary can ensure survival since Imotekh is mentioned as having several Alien Empires as his tributaries) or of groups with explicit evil goals such as Dark Eldar or even of the less evil but still practising Immoral actions of groups such as the Craftworld Eldar or Tau Empire. After all if Daemons win then technically the race of 'Daemons' will be secure and not need fearing destruction or suffering which is a similar justification as used by the Imperium. In that regard the two have one interesting mirror in that both simply desire the elimination of everything but themselves in order to be safe. No, I apologize, that's not fair. Chaos has made clear in 40k it does not want life to end, it requires humans and aliens to exist and desires it That makes calling this more difficult since Chaos desires other life forms but for the express purpose of feeding on them whereas the Imperium wishes to destroy anything which does not conform to its ideological view.

Nor should it stop a player, who wishes too, crafting a faction for themselves within the settings (Daemon or Chaos Follower) who need be evil. If someone wants to create their own force within the setting of Chaos Daemons or Followers who do represent something morally positive or neutral they are free to do so, its their privilege within this accessible fictional work. It is often the most enjoyable part, to me, of the process of army creation. Ultimately I'd hold this point as most important. I've become disenchanted with most 'moral' discussions about 40k.

EDIT: And, to be absolutely clear, I do think my answers are far from absolute on this murky topic, due to the nature of 40k they'll most likely change as evidence changes, and on this matter would rather stay my judgement. What I wrote above is, is pushed at the moment to make a call what I'd say, but my official answer would be that though I believe the Chaos Gods, as shown so far, are definitively more evil than the Imperium (or, if one subscribes to the belief that they cannot act except as they must then they are amoral entities and cannot be morally judged, akin to animals, but if they cause harm they must still be stopped) but that for followers of Chaos this need not necessarily be the case. Since there is no homogenous centralized hegemon of Chaos Followers I cannot compare them as a group to the Imperium and would have to compare individual empires and polities to the Imperium. In this case I would say that, compared to the Followers of Chaos, I'd assume (I have little evidence so mostly this is my own extrapolation) that they can run the gamut from being far worse than the Imperium to being far better than the Imperium. Ultimately though I'll stick by answering that there are no strict 'good guys' within the setting.

Ok,
Just one thing. Tyranids are animals and do not have a conscience and so should not be used as an example in moral debates.
But still, thanks. I think here is an answer that can satisfy every party, even those few weird people who voted that neither were evil.

 Chaos Spawn wrote:
Tyranids are animals and do not have a conscience and so should not be used as an example in moral debates.

Generally, yes. But just because they have no conscience (and thus no set of morals) doesn't mean that their actions can't be used as examples of what is morally right or wrong, but that's a whole other ball game and way off topic. So the Tyranids still can be used in these examples, but because of the aforementioned point, they are probably not be the best examples to use.

 Chaos Spawn wrote:
...[there are a] few weird people who voted that neither were evil.

I agree (sort of). Honestly, I can see people getting away with the fact that one is just as evil as the other (at a bit of a stretch) or that Chaos is definitely more evil that the IoM, but I'm not gonna lie: I find it rather unusual that people would vote for the other two options ('Chaos is Less Evil than the IoM', and 'Niether is Evil') for any reason other than for kicks.

 Chaos Spawn wrote:
Ok,
Just one thing. Tyranids are animals and do not have a conscience and so should not be used as an example in moral debates.
But still, thanks. I think here is an answer that can satisfy every party, even those few weird people who voted that neither were evil.

In one of the Valedor stories (one set in space) the Hive Mind is said to feel a great hatred for the lead Farseer which implies sapience which would suggest it can be judged in moral terms.

True, I remember that, it was said in Wraithflight where the Hive Mind was described as having a personal vendetta against the Spiritseer who played a role in stopping it and who seeks the Tears of Morai-Heg. It is, to be knowledge, the only instance of the Hive Mind being treated as such a entity. Since the Fluff of 40k is unlikely to ever be rigorously internally consistent problems like this do emerge in discussing the Fluff. My personal take on it is, until the evidence becomes more overwhelming, to for now go with the assumption that Tyranid are more akin to animals and thus cannot be morally held accountable. That being said, to be clear, since evidence now exists to point in the other direction; Wraithflight, I would also not call someone choosing to conceive of them as being agents possessed of potential moral or immoral states incorrect to refer to them as such. They can be interpreted in both ways and, until a definitive answer is produced as to how they operate (if a definitive answer is ever produced) I think in this dimension it is largely up to the individual interpretation of the reader/player.

Chaos is bettererer than silly imperial cowards hiding behind their corpse God

 Anemone wrote:
True, I remember that, it was said in Wraithflight where the Hive Mind was described as having a personal vendetta against the Spiritseer who played a role in stopping it and who seeks the Tears of Morai-Heg. It is, to be knowledge, the only instance of the Hive Mind being treated as such a entity. Since the Fluff of 40k is unlikely to ever be rigorously internally consistent problems like this do emerge in discussing the Fluff. My personal take on it is, until the evidence becomes more overwhelming, to for now go with the assumption that Tyranid are more akin to animals and thus cannot be morally held accountable.

The Hive Mind was often depicted as very intelligent. Not sure if such a level of intelligence automatically requires a sense of morality of some sort.

Ubl1k wrote:Chaos is bettererer than silly imperial cowards hiding behind their corpse God

So say those cowering in the Eye of Terror.

 IllumiNini wrote:

 Selym wrote:
TL;DR:

 Selym wrote:
The IOM is needfully evil.

Essentially what urbanknight4 said with his anecdote, but his explanation explains why they're needfully evil.

@ curran12, BaconUprising & War Kitten:

It's all a matter of degrees. Nobody is good in 40K. But relative to the Dark Eldar, the Eldar and Exodites are good; and in relation to the thread topic, the IoM is relatively good compared to Chaos. But the simple fact remains that, by necessity brought on by the nature of the 40K universe, everyone is evil.

Speak for yourself heretic, I'm as pure as a newly baptised baby *chastising look*

 November wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:

 Selym wrote:
TL;DR:

 Selym wrote:
The IOM is needfully evil.

Essentially what urbanknight4 said with his anecdote, but his explanation explains why they're needfully evil.

@ curran12, BaconUprising & War Kitten:

It's all a matter of degrees. Nobody is good in 40K. But relative to the Dark Eldar, the Eldar and Exodites are good; and in relation to the thread topic, the IoM is relatively good compared to Chaos. But the simple fact remains that, by necessity brought on by the nature of the 40K universe, everyone is evil.

Speak for yourself heretic, I'm as pure as a newly baptised baby *chastising look*

To be fair, Logan Griminir seems like a pretty all round good guy. What with the whole Armageddon 1 debacle vs the Iquisition

 IllumiNini wrote:

 Chaos Spawn wrote:
Tyranids are animals and do not have a conscience and so should not be used as an example in moral debates.

Generally, yes. But just because they have no conscience (and thus no set of morals) doesn't mean that their actions can't be used as examples of what is morally right or wrong, but that's a whole other ball game and way off topic. So the Tyranids still can be used in these examples, but because of the aforementioned point, they are probably not be the best examples to use.

 Chaos Spawn wrote:
...[there are a] few weird people who voted that neither were evil.

I agree (sort of). Honestly, I can see people getting away with the fact that one is just as evil as the other (at a bit of a stretch) or that Chaos is definitely more evil that the IoM, but I'm not gonna lie: I find it rather unusual that people would vote for the other two options ('Chaos is Less Evil than the IoM', and 'Niether is Evil') for any reason other than for kicks.

I voted that neither are evil, because neither are evil. The IOM is a product of its situation. Exterminatus? Had to; Chaos. Executions? Had to; must hold the line.

Chaos is a metaphysical reflection of the material universe, like some kind of galactic exposition. The sentient beings within have to perpetuate their actions in order to survive. Khorne needs war, Nurgle needs disease. It has no choice, and thus cannot be evil. Amoral, however...

And theres a case to be made for Chaos having Orange and Blue morality.

BaconUprising wrote:

 November wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:

 Selym wrote:
TL;DR:

 Selym wrote:
The IOM is needfully evil.

Essentially what urbanknight4 said with his anecdote, but his explanation explains why they're needfully evil.

@ curran12, BaconUprising & War Kitten:

It's all a matter of degrees. Nobody is good in 40K. But relative to the Dark Eldar, the Eldar and Exodites are good; and in relation to the thread topic, the IoM is relatively good compared to Chaos. But the simple fact remains that, by necessity brought on by the nature of the 40K universe, everyone is evil.

Speak for yourself heretic, I'm as pure as a newly baptised baby *chastising look*

To be fair, Logan Griminir seems like a pretty all round good guy. What with the whole Armageddon 1 debacle vs the Iquisition

A pretty good all round guy who will happily let a billion die to save his "bros" who could spread Chaos taint. And who lets his beef with the Inquisition kill far more than the original purges would.

"Good all round guy" right?

 curran12 wrote:

BaconUprising wrote:

 November wrote:

 IllumiNini wrote:

 Selym wrote:
TL;DR:

 Selym wrote:
The IOM is needfully evil.

Essentially what urbanknight4 said with his anecdote, but his explanation explains why they're needfully evil.

@ curran12, BaconUprising & War Kitten:

It's all a matter of degrees. Nobody is good in 40K. But relative to the Dark Eldar, the Eldar and Exodites are good; and in relation to the thread topic, the IoM is relatively good compared to Chaos. But the simple fact remains that, by necessity brought on by the nature of the 40K universe, everyone is evil.

Speak for yourself heretic, I'm as pure as a newly baptised baby *chastising look*

To be fair, Logan Griminir seems like a pretty all round good guy. What with the whole Armageddon 1 debacle vs the Iquisition

A pretty good all round guy who will happily let a billion die to save his "bros" who could spread Chaos taint. And who lets his beef with the Inquisition kill far more than the original purges would.

"Good all round guy" right?

A fair point but my response was tounge in cheek. Nobody in the 40k setting can really be called a "good guy", even 'innocent' imperial citizens are propergating the brutal regime by accepting living under it. I just liked the overall story of Grimir standing up to the tyrannical inquisition

 curran12 wrote:

A pretty good all round guy who will happily let a billion die to save his "bros" who could spread Chaos taint. And who lets his beef with the Inquisition kill far more than the original purges would.

"Good all round guy" right?

I really hope it gets mentioned somewhere that some of the Guardsmen saved do turn.

Chaos Spawn wrote:Cowering? We are not cowering! You imprisoned us for the crime of believing your leader to be nothing more than a fascist dictator. We do not hide, but rather wait until we amass the might to escape! Then we will have our vengeance! Death to the False Emperor!

More the crime of waging war against the Emperor, killing trillions and almost giving over humanity to the whims of the Ruinous Powers.

Better that than stay subject to the whims of the Emperor, still be at war does all of eternity and still kill trillions of our own subjects a decade!

No. Chaos is not the good guys. They are not 'freedom fighters'. They merely want to replace the existing tyranny (which they helped create) with a different tyranny - the tyranny of chaos, disorder, anarchy, murder, rape, filth, disease and social Darwinism (strong devour the weak).

This kind of thinking is very much the kind of rationale terrorists use in the real world to justify their horrific acts, with much the same result. Only the powers that be in the real world are far less oppressive than the totalitarian IOM.

My two cents.