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SU-24 not considered as "obsolete". We just have few of another bombers

 thenoobbomb wrote:
Chechen leader Ramzan Kadyrov has promised Turkey will "regret what it has done for a very long time", according to the BBC. Not that Chechnya can do much other than send terrorists, but still

Chechens make particularly nasty terrorists though, especially with all their military training, equipment and state support.

 Freakazoitt wrote:
SU-24 not considered as "obsolete". We just have few of another bombers

But it is a rather old plane.

 Freakazoitt wrote:
SU-24 not considered as "obsolete". We just have few of another bombers

The UK is using Tornados to this day and they're from 1979. The US operates F-15's and they're of a similar age.

I think everyone does this.

There was no plan to get into dogfights for any of the nations involved.

These planes are good platforms for firing modern weaponry.

Plus there are lots of upgrades that have been done to them.

 CptJake wrote:

 Freakazoitt wrote:
5 minutes is 80km fly. too long

I would guess they saw them coming, started the warnings, kept them up as they entered the airspace, saw they were being ignored, and had the F16s splash them.

Maybe they should have heeded the warnings in this case.

Funny how that works.

 LordofHats wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
My take. Were they recovered before ISIS got to them?

Non-ISIS Syrian rebels captured and killed them.

Confirmed they have been killed? This really raises the ante as Turkey is allegedly linked to the local anti-Assad groups.

 obsidianaura wrote:
To make Russia's day worse. They've had a helicopter shot down in Syria too today.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/621677/Reports-Russian-helicopter-shot-down-while-searching-downed-jets

This report implies the helicopter was looking for the pilots.

BBC wrote: A spokesman for the US-led coalition against Islamic State, Col Steve Warren says it can confirm that the Turks warned the Russian plane 10 times before shooting down the jet.

He said they were working to establish exactly where the plane was when it was shot down.

 Orlanth wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
My take. Were they recovered before ISIS got to them?

Non-ISIS Syrian rebels captured and killed them.

Confirmed they have been killed? This really raises the ante as Turkey is allegedly linked to the local anti-Assad groups.

 obsidianaura wrote:
To make Russia's day worse. They've had a helicopter shot down in Syria too today.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/621677/Reports-Russian-helicopter-shot-down-while-searching-downed-jets

This report implies the helicopter was looking for the pilots.

It's been confirmed they've been killed.

As for the helicopter, I'm speechless.

Outrageous, and goes to show that these rebel groups that the west has been backing for over a year now are nothing but more terrorist groups.

 thenoobbomb wrote:
[

As for the helicopter, I'm speechless.

Outrageous, and goes to show that these rebel groups that the west has been backing for over a year now are nothing but more terrorist groups.

In all fairness, Russia has been chucking cruise missiles at them for a few weeks now. It's probably not a very popular flag in that part of the world.

Why are you speechless? Thats how war works. They try to kill you if they can.

 Frazzled wrote:
Why are you speechless? Thats how war works. They try to kill you if they can.

Ask yourself if you would be saying this if it was an American helicopter trying to recover the bodies of American pilots that had just been shot by terrorists.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Why are you speechless? Thats how war works. They try to kill you if they can.

Ask yourself if you would be saying this if it was an American helicopter trying to recover the bodies of American pilots that had just been shot by terrorists.

I repeat, if American artillery and missiles had been nailing them for a few weeks, he probably would be. I think that when you throw a cruise missile at someone, you lose the right to complain and call them terrorists when they shoot your helicopters.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
My take. Were they recovered before ISIS got to them?

Non-ISIS Syrian rebels captured and killed them.

Confirmed they have been killed? This really raises the ante as Turkey is allegedly linked to the local anti-Assad groups.

 obsidianaura wrote:
To make Russia's day worse. They've had a helicopter shot down in Syria too today.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/621677/Reports-Russian-helicopter-shot-down-while-searching-downed-jets

This report implies the helicopter was looking for the pilots.

It's been confirmed they've been killed.

As for the helicopter, I'm speechless.

Outrageous, and goes to show that these rebel groups that the west has been backing for over a year now are nothing but more terrorist groups.

I don't like the idea that UK is funding people who would do this. I hope the western countries involved will think about what has happened and sort them out.

Russia has done the same in Ukraine though and the casualties are far worse.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Saying it has nothing to do with religion is denying the entire nature of the Syrian conflict.

Pretending this is solely about the Syrian Conflict is short sighted. This is about two old powers than want to be powerful again. Arguably the Syrian Civil War itself has evolved to be part proxy war between Russia and Turkey at this point.

which are virtually all radical islamists, even the non-ISIS groups.

Well yeah. If you want to replace reality with fiction. Lots of that going around these days...

Most of the Islamist groups fighting in Syria are not Syrian. Hezbollah has been very active in the conflict and is from Lebanon. ISIS spread into Syria from Iraq. Al Qaeda be there too as Al Nusra. Really the only hard core Islamist groups there that are actually Syrian are the Syrian Liberation Front and the Syrian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood.

Further, who told you Assad's government was secular? It isn't. The Assad government is built on a minority group in Syria called the Alawites (Shia Muslims who are way into mysticism). The Al-Assad family has lead this power bloc since the French left the region and despite being 1/10 of the population have oppressed most other religious and ethnic groups in Syria for over half a century. The Kurds and the Assyrians generally being the ones who got the worst of it. The bulk of organized rebels are in fact fighting to establish a secular democratic state (granted a super left wing one). The Assad government is a Ba'athist government. It's a political ideology centered in pan-Arabism, and while it's founder was a hard core secularist, the neo movements that came in his death split. The Iraq Ba'athists under Sadam came to advance Sunni Islam, and the Syrian Ba'athists under the Al-Assads came to advanced Shia. Both government proclaimed themselves as secular but neither were/are.

Seriously. Your propaganda is weak. Surely you can come up with something better.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Why are you speechless? Thats how war works. They try to kill you if they can.

Ask yourself if you would be saying this if it was an American helicopter trying to recover the bodies of American pilots that had just been shot by terrorists.

It probably would be something like, "burn, maim, kill!"

In serious words this is bad news bears for sure.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Why are you speechless? Thats how war works. They try to kill you if they can.

Ask yourself if you would be saying this if it was an American helicopter trying to recover the bodies of American pilots that had just been shot by terrorists.

My cousin was a crew chief on Marine helicopters in Vietnam, and he had three shot out from under him, with one time he being the sole survivor. Helicopters got shot down over there all the time as they looked for pilots.

That being said, I think there is going to be some serious payback for this that is going to more than balance the scales.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Why are you speechless? Thats how war works. They try to kill you if they can.

Ask yourself if you would be saying this if it was an American helicopter trying to recover the bodies of American pilots that had just been shot by terrorists.

CSAR is a dangerous mission. Our CSAR guys got shot at all the time, as did medevac choppers. War is war. Our guys got a lot better at protecting CSAR and medevac flights. Yours may want to do the same.


Funny how when you send helicopter gunships after guys armed with missiles that can take them down, sometimes those guys use the missiles.

Luckily enough it seems that nobody on board of the helicopter died, and that they were picked up by the other helicopter.

Relapse wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Why are you speechless? Thats how war works. They try to kill you if they can.

Ask yourself if you would be saying this if it was an American helicopter trying to recover the bodies of American pilots that had just been shot by terrorists.

My cousin was a crew chief on Marine helicopters in Vietnam, and he had three shot out from under him, with one time he being the sole survivor. Helicopters got shot down over there all the time as they looked for pilots.

A terrible thing, right?

 CptJake wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Why are you speechless? Thats how war works. They try to kill you if they can.

Ask yourself if you would be saying this if it was an American helicopter trying to recover the bodies of American pilots that had just been shot by terrorists.

CSAR is a dangerous mission. Our CSAR guys got shot at all the time, as did medevac choppers. War is war. Our guys got a lot better at protecting CSAR and medevac flights. Yours may want to do the same.


Funny how when you send helicopter gunships after guys armed with missiles that can take them down, sometimes those guys use the missiles.

I don't believe there's any Dutch helicopters currently active in Syria

Takes away nothing that it is a disgusting act to shoot people that are only trying to recover the bodies of their fallen comrades. Shooting a rescue helicopter is a war crime.

Just to emphasise this again:

BBC wrote:Turkey's Hurriyet website reports Russia's ambassador to Turkey and the military attache were summoned to the Foreign Ministry last Thursday because of the following allegations:

The operations of the Russian army were taking place in areas very close to Turkey's border, threatening its border security. Turkey noted its rules of engagement were in place and there would be no hesitation to implement them if a violation occurred.
The area where Russian operations were being conducted was free of Islamic State and other terrorist groups and civilian Turkmen were being harmed.

When your military shoots at people, they are allowed shoot back. This is not a war crime. People on the ground do not know what mission your military helicopter is engaged in. All they know is that a military helicopter flying the flag of the people who have been lobbing explosives at them is flying above them, and they shoot it.

 thenoobbomb wrote:
Luckily enough it seems that nobody on board of the helicopter died, and that they were picked up by the other helicopter.

Relapse wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Why are you speechless? Thats how war works. They try to kill you if they can.

Ask yourself if you would be saying this if it was an American helicopter trying to recover the bodies of American pilots that had just been shot by terrorists.

My cousin was a crew chief on Marine helicopters in Vietnam, and he had three shot out from under him, with one time he being the sole survivor. Helicopters got shot down over there all the time as they looked for pilots.

A terrible thing, right?

Yep. The time he was the only survivor, he went down in Cambodia during a point we weren't acknowledging our presence there. He was on his own in the jungle for a couple of weeks as he made his way back and was more pissed at his commander for not sending help than the guys who shot him down.

 thenoobbomb wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Why are you speechless? Thats how war works. They try to kill you if they can.

Ask yourself if you would be saying this if it was an American helicopter trying to recover the bodies of American pilots that had just been shot by terrorists.

You mean like in Vietnam? Like Korea? Like Afghanistan? Again, what do you think war is?
Why are they terrorists? They are fighting against a dictator. Your dictator just happens to like their dictator.

I don't like the idea that UK is funding people who would do this. I hope the western countries involved will think about what has happened and sort them out.

Indeed, we need to pass out medals at once. Shooting down a helicopter with an antitank missile takes skill.

 Ketara wrote:
Just to emphasise this again:

BBC wrote:Turkey's Hurriyet website reports Russia's ambassador to Turkey and the military attache were summoned to the Foreign Ministry last Thursday because of the following allegations:

The operations of the Russian army were taking place in areas very close to Turkey's border, threatening its border security. Turkey noted its rules of engagement were in place and there would be no hesitation to implement them if a violation occurred.
The area where Russian operations were being conducted was free of Islamic State and other terrorist groups and civilian Turkmen were being harmed.

When your military shoots at people, they are allowed shoot back. This is not a war crime.

I don't know if people are saying what Turkey did was a war crime I meant the killing of the pilots coming down by parachute is.

Turkey is saying that the pilots are alive still.

This is rather confusing.

What a mess this civil war has turned into. The us sent a drone to help search for the Russian airmen. Reports are the the pilots are alive and being held by the Syrian Rebels according to our news.

 obsidianaura wrote:


Turkey is saying that the pilots are alive still.

This is rather confusing.

The pilots being dead, and killed in the way they were by people getting Turkish support, undermines Turkey's attempt to paint blame on Russia. So they're gonna do exactly what they do with most of their embarrassing blunders (Armenian Genocide); pretend it totally didn't happen and everything is just hunky dory

 obsidianaura wrote:


I don't know if people are saying what Turkey did was a war crime I meant the killing of the pilots coming down by parachute is.

It depends. Generally, a war crime is committed by a conventional military against a third party. That's why people aren't regarding what happened in Paris as a 'war crime' but a terrorist attack.

When a state military has been lobbing explosives into your back yard for a few weeks, and killed half a dozen neighbours, is it a war crime to gun down members of aforementioned military? One one hand, they're defenceless. On the other, they're uniformed members of a military that's doing it's best to kill you when you have done nothing to it, that you have little way at striking back at.

I'm aware this would qualify for any British pilots shot down in Iraq right now and captured by ISIS, and I am not saying that it is morally right or correct. But I am also aware that this is a moral gray area, and labelling it a 'war crime' seems extreme.

 LordofHats wrote:

 obsidianaura wrote:


Turkey is saying that the pilots are alive still.

This is rather confusing.

The pilots being dead, and killed in the way they were by people getting Turkish support, undermines Turkey's attempt to paint blame on Russia. So they're gonna do exactly what they do with most of their embarrassing blunders (Armenian Genocide); pretend it totally didn't happen and everything is just hunky dory

So right now, they are both alive and dead.

An Austrian scientist might find that amusing.

 Chute82 wrote:
What a mess this civil war has turned into. The us sent a drone to help search for the Russian airmen. Reports are the the pilots are alive and being held by the Syrian Rebels according to our news.

Oh really?

Well wouldn't this be an interesting twist. The first mention of it in thread is from the Guardian. Where did the original report that they were dead come from?

 Ketara wrote:

 obsidianaura wrote:


I don't know if people are saying what Turkey did was a war crime I meant the killing of the pilots coming down by parachute is.

It depends. Generally, a war crime is committed by a conventional military against a third party. That's why people aren't regarding what happened in Paris as a 'war crime' but a terrorist attack.

When a state military has been lobbing explosives into your back yard for a few weeks, and killed half a dozen neighbours, is it a war crime to gun down members of aforementioned military? One one hand, they're defenceless. On the other, they're uniformed members of a military that's doing it's best to kill you when you have done nothing to it, that you have little way at striking back at.

This is very true.

 obsidianaura wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

 obsidianaura wrote:


I don't know if people are saying what Turkey did was a war crime I meant the killing of the pilots coming down by parachute is.

It depends. Generally, a war crime is committed by a conventional military against a third party. That's why people aren't regarding what happened in Paris as a 'war crime' but a terrorist attack.

When a state military has been lobbing explosives into your back yard for a few weeks, and killed half a dozen neighbours, is it a war crime to gun down members of aforementioned military? One one hand, they're defenceless. On the other, they're uniformed members of a military that's doing it's best to kill you when you have done nothing to it, that you have little way at striking back at.

This is very true.

I'm aware this would qualify for any British pilots shot down in Iraq right now and captured by ISIS, and I am not saying that it is morally right or correct. But I am also aware that this is a moral gray area, and labelling it a 'war crime' seems extreme.

 Ketara wrote:

 obsidianaura wrote:

 Ketara wrote:

 obsidianaura wrote:


I don't know if people are saying what Turkey did was a war crime I meant the killing of the pilots coming down by parachute is.

It depends. Generally, a war crime is committed by a conventional military against a third party. That's why people aren't regarding what happened in Paris as a 'war crime' but a terrorist attack.

When a state military has been lobbing explosives into your back yard for a few weeks, and killed half a dozen neighbours, is it a war crime to gun down members of aforementioned military? One one hand, they're defenceless. On the other, they're uniformed members of a military that's doing it's best to kill you when you have done nothing to it, that you have little way at striking back at.

This is very true.

I'm aware this would qualify for any British pilots shot down in Iraq right now and captured by ISIS, and I am not saying that it is morally right or correct. But I am also aware that this is a moral gray area, and labelling it a 'war crime' seems extreme.

The discomfort I think is coming from knowing we are probably the ones who gave them the guns to kill the pilots, if they are indeed dead.

Looking through the net, there conflicting reports seem to originate from several different rebel groups claiming to have killed the pilots, several others claiming to have captured them alive, and some that one pilot is dead and one alive. There are also reports that the Turkish military is negotiating with the rebels for the pilots to be handed over.

Guess we have to wait and see.