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I've always kind of felt that the most significant part of the LotR "boom" was Battle Games in Middle-Earth magazine, which was in general circulation and available from any newsagent. Advertising outside your core market works- who'd have thunk it?

Likewise for AoS. Whatever else you think of the game, GW made an intro range specifically for new players... and forgot to invite any.

I know they had problems with MB over Heroquest and Space Crusade (I believe the phrase was "ripped off"), and I heard mutterings that Warner Brothers were awful to work with (including the rumour that they canned the plastic Smaug that GW presented to them), but there's an alternative GW timeline where they learned differently from LotR and by 2016 are a respected producer of movie tie-in models and games as well as their own ranges.

You Brits go on and on about the magazine advertising GW did there, but I don't remember any of that stuff in U.S., and LotR sold well.

IMO, the most significant part of LotR's success was the nine-figure movies being released promoting the IP.

IMO, the most significant part of LotR's success was the nine-figure movies being released promoting the IP.

That's really the key right there. At least in the U.S. I think. I don't really know anyone who had never played a minis game before and started playing LotR. Even some of the hardcore Tolkien fans I know who absolutely loved the films had no interest in the game. On the other hand, I know a lot of people who were already playing 40k, Fantasy, Warmahordes, etc., who saw those films and, at the very least, bought a few models.

Problem is, even by GW's standards, the LotR stuff was expensive (they probably had to charge extra to cover royalties or some such), and without the movies as an impetus to drive excitement (and therefor sales), the LotR line had little going for it when compared to the other games these people were already playing. It was easy to forget about it at that point.

IMO, the most significant part of LotR's success was the nine-figure movies being released promoting the IP.

Of course the movies were key, and the LotR "bump" does correlate with the run of the films. I probably am exaggerating. GW managed to put their minis into every village newsagent in the country though, and I do wonder at the effect it had. My personal experience (and nothing moe than that) was that it got a lot of kids into the game - as a follow-on from seeing the films. The magazine does seem to have been well received - it had its run extended twice, and several of the staff were recruited for White Dwarf.

BGiME was indeed not available in the US, which does dent my argument - for the US. On the other hand, the LotR starter boxes were insanely cheap in the US - $40 compared to £40 ($80 at the time). I remember plotting how to import them without paying customs and it never seemed to work out cheaper. How much were the 40k and WFB starter boxes at the time? My reading of the recent Rick Priestley interview is that a lot of thought went into attracting new customers to make the game a success - simpler and cheaper models, streamlined rules, and (maybe) a magazine/minis in general circulation.

In the context of this thread, Smaug being No 1 (and the hint that outside collectors may have shown an interest) makes me think that GW could do worse than loo to extend their marketing again. Were there any Smaug modelling and painting articles in modelling or SF&F magazines or websites?

Problem is, even by GW's standards, the LotR stuff was expensive

Are you thinking of the Hobbit miniatures? I agree, they were insanely expensive, and in a much more competitive market. The LotR figures, however, were £12 for 24 infantry at a time when 40k and WFB were asking £15 for 10-20 models. The LotR figures were literally 1/3 the price of a space marine. The price of LotR plastic infantry plastics doubled at the start of 2012, but that was almost a decade AFTER the film boom.

LoTR grossed about $315 M in the first six months. The Hobbit grossed about £303 M. (IMDB.)

Even allowing for ticket price inflation, The Hobbit cannot be considered a miserable flop.

Therefore it seems likely that some other factor affected the relative sales success of the two games.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
LoTR grossed about $315 M in the first six months. The Hobbit grossed about £303 M. (IMDB.)

Even allowing for ticket price inflation, The Hobbit cannot be considered a miserable flop.

Therefore it seems likely that some other factor affected the relative sales success of the two games.

Although a lot of people saw the Hobbit movies, they weren't as well regarded, and The Hobbit is more suited to a roleplaying game than a tabletop wargame. I think that along with some exorbitant prices, even for GW, really are what put a stake in it.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
LoTR grossed about $315 M in the first six months. The Hobbit grossed about £303 M. (IMDB.)

Even allowing for ticket price inflation, The Hobbit cannot be considered a miserable flop.

Therefore it seems likely that some other factor affected the relative sales success of the two games.

Yeah, like the terrible pricing and uninspiring starter set

Pricing and gakky products didn't help, of course.

But it is a big stretch to say that mainstream promotion to a receptive audience would not have helped.

Yeah that too, not being able to buy it in other stores didn't help.

It all combines to make a gak storm, the movie wasn't as popular, it wasn't marketed as widely as LotR, the products were so expensive that even people who wanted them didn't buy them and the lack of a compelling starter set.

IDK about Australia, but when I worked in magazine publishing the conventional wisdom was that the UK market was 80% newsstand, 20% subscription, while the US market was the opposite. This makes magazines potentially a much more powerful promotion in the UK (and much of Europe).

Yeah I have no idea what it is in Australia. I have never followed magazines at all even going back through the 90's, but I don't speak for all Australians.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
IDK about Australia, but when I worked in magazine publishing the conventional wisdom was that the UK market was 80% newsstand, 20% subscription, while the US market was the opposite. This makes magazines potentially a much more powerful promotion in the UK (and much of Europe).

Interesting, thanks. We often forget here that the US is a continent almost as much as a country. Missed the chance to catch up with internet buddies the last couple of times I've been across in the States, as I hadn't realise that I'd have been travelling the equivalent of the entire length of the UK to meet up...

I know Flames of War had a basic rules booklet on magazine racks for a while, but no miniatures, and I have no information about sales.

I'm not even saying such a magazine would be a smash hit for, say, AoS, not without the backing of a huge film behind it. And the rules have changed - I believe the big newsagents and supermarkets, IIRC, charge publishers for shelf space now?

Wait, isn't Oz a continent, as well as a country? And what about India?

Smaug surprises me, I have to say.

Sure, LotR (both the films and the tabletop game) and the Smaug kit was both expensive and absolutely stunning, but the Hobbit (films and game again) have been less popular and, well... the Smaug model seemed to pop up, get an "OMG" reaction from everyone then fade away. Conversely, I hear every day people saying how they're going to expand their Tau army this way, or how they're going to get a Knight to bolster their Space Marines...

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Wait, isn't Oz a continent, as well as a country? And what about India?

Nope. Australia is part of Australasia, sometimes called Oceana, and includes places like New Guinea etc, and India is a sub-continent.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Battle of Cattle

I would play the GAK out of this game. The heroic UltraMoo-rines vs. the dreaded Curd Bearers.

 The Shadow wrote:
Smaug surprises me, I have to say.

Sure, LotR (both the films and the tabletop game) and the Smaug kit was both expensive and absolutely stunning, but the Hobbit (films and game again) have been less popular and, well... the Smaug model seemed to pop up, get an "OMG" reaction from everyone then fade away. Conversely, I hear every day people saying how they're going to expand their Tau army this way, or how they're going to get a Knight to bolster their Space Marines...

That's because dakka or your standard wargamer aren't the ones buying Smaug models.

 Mymearan wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
Smaug surprises me, I have to say.

Sure, LotR (both the films and the tabletop game) and the Smaug kit was both expensive and absolutely stunning, but the Hobbit (films and game again) have been less popular and, well... the Smaug model seemed to pop up, get an "OMG" reaction from everyone then fade away. Conversely, I hear every day people saying how they're going to expand their Tau army this way, or how they're going to get a Knight to bolster their Space Marines...

That's because dakka or your standard wargamer aren't the ones buying Smaug models.

Actually I'd say Dakka has a disproportionate number of people who would buy big expensive models for no other reason than they think they're cool. I remember one Dakkanaught posting an unboxing thread when they bought a Smaug.

I wonder how many people have bought the Tau Manta that FW do. It costs about £1,000 nowadays.

The problem with the Manta is the thing is so huge you can't do much with it. Smaug is big, but he'll fit on most display shelves. The Manta is both impractical in games AND you can't really display it unless you just turn it in to a coffee table or something, lol.

I'd suggest that's a bigger obstacle than the actual price for many collectors.

Hell, it's why I haven't bought any 1/24 scale aircraft. You can pick them up for only £50-100 and some of them look quite impressive, but I have no where to put it once I build it. Even 1/32 stuff I think hard about before buying them and only buy the ones I REALLY want taking up display space.

@Skink - I'm not so sure about that, though. After all, the Warlord Titan is the top best-seller on Forge World, and it's not like that is easy to fit... anywhere. Do people actually game with those?

Some people hang 1/24 planes from the ceiling, right?

 Talys wrote:
@Skink - I'm not so sure about that, though. After all, the Warlord Titan is the top best-seller on Forge World, and it's not like that is easy to fit... anywhere. Do people actually game with those?

Some people hang 1/24 planes from the ceiling, right?

Once the item is sold I'm sure GW doesn't give a whole heck of a lot what you do with it..

@Chute82 - for sure. But Skink was saying that Manta isn't likely to have sold well, because it's impractical for both gaming and display. I'm just pointing out that I don't think Warlord is practical for either, as well -- basically, it's a display model for people with a HUGE display space.

 Talys wrote:
@Chute82 - for sure. But Skink was saying that Manta isn't likely to have sold well, because it's impractical for both gaming and display. I'm just pointing out that I don't think Warlord is practical for either, as well -- basically, it's a display model for people with a HUGE display space.

I have a gaming buddy that has pretty much everything. All the armorcast models, FW models and around $70k in GW pastic and metal models. His whole basement is lined with shelves of 40k models,it's quite a thing to see. He has never played a game of apocalypse with all these huge Titan models he has, matter of fact he hasn't played 40k in years. He is GW's ideal customer

 Talys wrote:
@Skink - I'm not so sure about that, though. After all, the Warlord Titan is the top best-seller on Forge World, and it's not like that is easy to fit... anywhere. Do people actually game with those?

Some people hang 1/24 planes from the ceiling, right?

Apparently so!



Source


I also had a big Spitfire hanging in my room as a kid.

That is cool.

Also, would be better to play as Epic 40k.

I must be blind... where is the warlord?

But anyhow, that's a really cool.... game floor I like that the smallest model makes the honored imperium statue look like midget

 Talys wrote:
I must be blind... where is the warlord?

But anyhow, that's a really cool.... game floor I like that the smallest model makes the honored imperium statue look like midget

If one isn't there then I just got my types of Titans mixed up.

@durecellrabbit -

Those are reaver titans. The warlord is actually quite a bit larger I love how small the puny contemptors are beneath. Incidentally, one of the really difficult things, IMO, about "gaming" with warlords is just transporting them. The whole assembly makes it seem dubious that many people would take this guy somewhere other than their own house to game with; it just seems too likely you'd break something on such a nice model.



I wonder when GW will make an Emperor titan? If 40k survives for another two centuries, the centerpiece models will be the size of the Space Marine statue that used to be outside of GWHQ, and gaming bases will have casters on them!

Thanks for the reference pic. Glad I don't have to try transporting them. Normal figures with wings are bad enough.