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They lied about the copyright situation regarding shoulder pads.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
As stupid as GW's lawyers were I'd hope they weren't stupid enough to lie on documents they are presenting in court Lying on a random "top 28" list that only a few nerds are going to care about isn't quite as serious

IIRC they told Chapterhouse's lawyers they didn't have the contact details of various original Rogue Trader artists and collaborators Chapterhouse wanted to depose while at the same time GW was contacting them themselves to get them to retroactively sign away their rights to works from the 1980's in 2010+ to shore up their case. Unfortunately, the judge who seemingly had no interest in having his time wasted on a plastic toy soldier case didn't bother to penalize the lawyer responsible for that.

Ok then, my mistake, don't trust anything GW says in any setting, best off assuming they're always lying

RE: Wraithknight vs Droppod

This is a time senstive list, apparently. Wraithknights have been OP since the codex before last, and because of their high RRP are more likely to encourage players to look to the second hand (or even recast) market.

Droppods, while almost certainly always popular, have received a buff in the time frame pertinent to this list, likely prompting both new and exisiting players to buy more than they perhaps may have done in previous years.

Plus, WKs realistically top out at 3 in most competitive size lists, whereas one could easily use 9 or more free droppods if one had a mind too.

 Azreal13 wrote:
RE: Wraithknight vs Droppod

This is a time senstive list, apparently. Wraithknights have been OP since the codex before last, and because of their high RRP are more likely to encourage players to look to the second hand (or even recast) market.

Droppods, while almost certainly always popular, have received a buff in the time frame pertinent to this list, likely prompting both new and exisiting players to buy more than they perhaps may have done in previous years.

Plus, WKs realistically top out at 3 in most competitive size lists, whereas one could easily use 9 or more free droppods if one had a mind too.

It's not really the lack of the Wraithknight that surprises me as much as the lack of jetbikes. They're new models, models which Eldar players have been wanting for quite a while AND they're OP.

Well, the Indy list outright contradicts the GW one on that score, and I'd guess that if you were going to replace (or more likely increase) your jet bike contingent then you'd not want to pay full RRP for the privilege.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Well, the Indy list outright contradicts the GW one on that score, and I'd guess that if you were going to replace (or more likely increase) your jet bike contingent then you'd not want to pay full RRP for the privilege.

That argument can be made for just about anything expensive though. I'd think when buying something small and cheap (do GW even make cheap things anymore? ) getting the 10-20% discount doesn't matter quite so much because it only saves you a few bucks. I'd often buy cheaper stuff direct from GW because it was usually the most convenient way to do it. But on a Knight Warden you're looking at saving ~$30 buying from an indie so I'm willing to travel the extra 20 minutes to get to my FLGS or wait for it to come from an indie online store.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
As long as I've been collecting (2nd) it seems Eldar has always had a following, I certainly would have expected more so than Tyranids who got several kits on the top 28.

There is an Grape vs Orange vs Pineapple thing going on here.

GW releases ~ designer popularity (<<<<1% of total population):
1. Eldar
2. Orks
3. Tau
4. Tyranids

FRG Top 10 ~ competitive gamer popularity (<5% of total population):
1. Tau
2. Eldar
3. Tyranids
4. Orks

GW Top 28 ~ general public popularity (95+% of total population):
1. Tyranids (ref. Starcraft / Starship Troopers / Alien)
2. Tau (ref anime, giant robots)
3. Eldar
4. Orks

Something like that. Depending on which segment you are looking at, popularity varies dramatically. Except for Orks, which are "for fun".

Holding out for Sisters? Good luck, because the one segment that really matters (the GW designers) doesn't really care for them.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Well, the Indy list outright contradicts the GW one on that score, and I'd guess that if you were going to replace (or more likely increase) your jet bike contingent then you'd not want to pay full RRP for the privilege.

That argument can be made for just about anything expensive though. I'd think when buying something small and cheap (do GW even make cheap things anymore? ) getting the 10-20% discount doesn't matter quite so much because it only saves you a few bucks. I'd often buy cheaper stuff direct from GW because it was usually the most convenient way to do it. But on a Knight Warden you're looking at saving ~$30 buying from an indie so I'm willing to travel the extra 20 minutes to get to my FLGS or wait for it to come from an indie online store.

I expect people were buying a LOT more than one Jetbike...

Is it possible that the FLG list is based on units sold, while the GW list is based on dollars sold? That would account for things like Tyranid Swarm and Imperial Knight, and may explain how the Farseer on Jetbike makes the list at all.

On a dollar basis, I just don't see how the Farseer could make the list. It's neither expensive enough, nor a unit players are likely to buy enough of, to exceed dollars value of Knight Warden sales, IMO.

Also, I didn't watch the video, but the list that warboss posted doesn't really contradict the GW list at all *except for the two Eldar units*. Betrayal at Calth isn't on the GW list because they didn't include starter boxes, and Ghostkeel being on one while Stormsurge is on the other is not really a big deal, especially if you consider that it might be dollars vs. units. The both are full of the admech, they both have CSM, and they both have drop pods.

Isn't the farseer bike kit the only way to make warlocks on bikes as well? For a bike heavy eldar list, iiirc you need a warlock leading squads on top of the popular warlock only squad. Since there was no previous official kit and chapterhouse's version might have disappeared after the court case, I suspect demand was high.

SO...Smaug is number 1? I think I recall someone saying that can't possibly be true.

edit: must have been in the other thread.

 Azreal13 wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Well, the Indy list outright contradicts the GW one on that score, and I'd guess that if you were going to replace (or more likely increase) your jet bike contingent then you'd not want to pay full RRP for the privilege.

That argument can be made for just about anything expensive though. I'd think when buying something small and cheap (do GW even make cheap things anymore? ) getting the 10-20% discount doesn't matter quite so much because it only saves you a few bucks. I'd often buy cheaper stuff direct from GW because it was usually the most convenient way to do it. But on a Knight Warden you're looking at saving ~$30 buying from an indie so I'm willing to travel the extra 20 minutes to get to my FLGS or wait for it to come from an indie online store.

I expect people were buying a LOT more than one Jetbike...

I'm sure they were, but my point is that people would have that approach for anything expensive, like several of the kits on the list.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Well, the Indy list outright contradicts the GW one on that score, and I'd guess that if you were going to replace (or more likely increase) your jet bike contingent then you'd not want to pay full RRP for the privilege.

That argument can be made for just about anything expensive though. I'd think when buying something small and cheap (do GW even make cheap things anymore? ) getting the 10-20% discount doesn't matter quite so much because it only saves you a few bucks. I'd often buy cheaper stuff direct from GW because it was usually the most convenient way to do it. But on a Knight Warden you're looking at saving ~$30 buying from an indie so I'm willing to travel the extra 20 minutes to get to my FLGS or wait for it to come from an indie online store.

I expect people were buying a LOT more than one Jetbike...

I'm sure they were, but my point is that people would have that approach for anything expensive, like several of the kits on the list.

There's a couple of things to consider when you're looking at discounts, I think.

One thing is that if you want one more farseer on a jetbike or one more box of windriders, whatever store is closer and has inventory may win out over the price tag, especially if the discount is only 10% or thereabouts, and especially if the travel distance is great.

I agree that the big, $150+ kit is more likely to have me dreaming of ways to get a bigger discount than with the $40 kit, even if I may buy multiples of the $40 kit. For example, every 5% definitely counts with a $150 kit; I'll definitely drive a little further to get an extra 10%, and I'm probably willing buy two of them kit if the store will go nuts and give me 30% or 35% off. On the $40 kit, whatever. 15%, 20%, 25%... whoever has it closer gets the sale. The $4 or $5 difference just doesn't matter enough to me to go further (plus gas, my time, all that).

I think one compelling reason to order from GW is if you aren't in a reasonable travel distance of an alternative. A 20% discount sounds great, but as much not if you have to drive for 45 minutes there and back. Order a not-unreasonable-amount (I think, $80?) and you get free shipping, here. For a lot of people, if you're looking at $80 with free shipping or $64 and a 45 minute drive, they'll just take the free shipping.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Well, the Indy list outright contradicts the GW one on that score, and I'd guess that if you were going to replace (or more likely increase) your jet bike contingent then you'd not want to pay full RRP for the privilege.

That argument can be made for just about anything expensive though. I'd think when buying something small and cheap (do GW even make cheap things anymore? ) getting the 10-20% discount doesn't matter quite so much because it only saves you a few bucks. I'd often buy cheaper stuff direct from GW because it was usually the most convenient way to do it. But on a Knight Warden you're looking at saving ~$30 buying from an indie so I'm willing to travel the extra 20 minutes to get to my FLGS or wait for it to come from an indie online store.

I expect people were buying a LOT more than one Jetbike...

I'm sure they were, but my point is that people would have that approach for anything expensive, like several of the kits on the list.

Then we start to see a separation based on the different customer profiles I suspect. Outside, perhaps, of the odd spontaneous purchase or the local GW being the only available play space, any hobbyist outside of the casualist of the most casual who games in any meaningful way will channel their funds somewhere that'll earn them discount.

Anyone buying anything at full RRP from GW is likely invested in the GW ecosystem, they're quite possibly completely ignorant of third parties because that's how GW want it, and the GW "way" is to build collections, not armies. Hence people buying direct probably are of a mindset to buy a unit of 3 or 5 Jetbikes, not a whole damn cavalry regiment of them, whereas the customers of the likes of FLG are building armies in the old fashioned sense.

Judging by my recent experiences, it is getting harder and harder to buy things in actual GW shops.

The amount of stock on display is so small that you'll only find a few of the main kits and a few clamshell packs for each army in the whole range.

No doubt there are people who go in on a whim and buy something because it catches their eye, but if you are planning an army and have specific requirements, it makes no sense to visit the shop because they quite likely won't have what you need.

The problem with this is that particularly for the more expensive individual Finecast kits, you really want to be able to look at the sprue before buying it.

I recently went to a recruitment night in a GW store after closing hours. The staff tried to flog the new AdMech Tech Priests to us at a discount because they had like 15 that weren't selling.

Ironically, if they stocked more Hobbit I might have actually been tempted to make an impulse purchase.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Judging by my recent experiences, it is getting harder and harder to buy things in actual GW shops.

The amount of stock on display is so small that you'll only find a few of the main kits and a few clamshell packs for each army in the whole range.

No doubt there are people who go in on a whim and buy something because it catches their eye, but if you are planning an army and have specific requirements, it makes no sense to visit the shop because they quite likely won't have what you need.

The problem with this is that particularly for the more expensive individual Finecast kits, you really want to be able to look at the sprue before buying it.

It's a symptom of the huge range GW have these days. 10 years ago they carried EVERYTHING that was in the catalogue at my local store, but the shelves weren't cramped. Now they've moved to a larger store, stack boxes in a more space efficient way (more cramped and worse from a display perspective) and STILL don't manage to carry the whole range.

That said, my local store is about 95% likely to have any plastic boxed set you might want and probably about 50% on Failcast stuff, so still not terrible odds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Then we start to see a separation based on the different customer profiles I suspect. Outside, perhaps, of the odd spontaneous purchase or the local GW being the only available play space, any hobbyist outside of the casualist of the most casual who games in any meaningful way will channel their funds somewhere that'll earn them discount.

Anyone buying anything at full RRP from GW is likely invested in the GW ecosystem, they're quite possibly completely ignorant of third parties because that's how GW want it, and the GW "way" is to build collections, not armies. Hence people buying direct probably are of a mindset to buy a unit of 3 or 5 Jetbikes, not a whole damn cavalry regiment of them, whereas the customers of the likes of FLG are building armies in the old fashioned sense.

Yeah I don't know how much I agree with that. I understand what you're saying, I'm just not really sure it's true.

Maybe it's just local bias because in the month of the Eldar release I literally saw 2 people walk in to my local GW and walk out with a pile of jet bikes and a Wraithknight or two

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Judging by my recent experiences, it is getting harder and harder to buy things in actual GW shops.

The amount of stock on display is so small that you'll only find a few of the main kits and a few clamshell packs for each army in the whole range.

No doubt there are people who go in on a whim and buy something because it catches their eye, but if you are planning an army and have specific requirements, it makes no sense to visit the shop because they quite likely won't have what you need.

The problem with this is that particularly for the more expensive individual Finecast kits, you really want to be able to look at the sprue before buying it.

This may be specific to certain stores. My local GW store actually has an amazing amount of inventory -- easily 10 times more GW models than any local independent, and most popular plastic kits for 40k or AoS. I don't think they have *any* finecast anymore, and they don't have very many of the web-exclusive items (there may be a couple). Every wall has shelves, and every shelf is packed to crammed to capacity with stock. I also can't recall the last time I was there when there were fewer than 2 employees; I think I've seen 3. So successful stores get more shelf stuff, unsuccessful stores get less, I would guess.

Ironically, for Finecast kits, getting a bad kit, from GW or another vendor, is actually not a terrible thing. Email GW a picture of it, and they'll FedEx you a brand new model -- the whole thing!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Maybe it's just local bias because in the month of the Eldar release I literally saw 2 people walk in to my local GW and walk out with a pile of jet bikes and a Wraithknight or two

The jetbikes sold out on GW's website for quite a while, which is why I'm surprised they didn't pass the muster to make top 28. Then again, maybe GW didn't make enough, which is why they didn't make top 28

The problem is the same all the shops I visit, that are in Reading, Windsor, Oxford, Maidenhead, Kingston, and Chiswick. (I went to Basingstoke on Tuesday but it was shut.)

Taken together these shops serve a population of at least a couple of million people in west London and south-east England, including two major universities.

They all seem to carry the same specific range of stock, which I presume is what GW consider the basics of each army's range. For example, out of Seraphon all of them have the Skink Star Seer clamshell pack but none of the other Lizard Men personalities.

They are all relatively small shops, which presumably is the basic problem. No doubt GW also are economising on the amount of inventory they have to carry.