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I generally think that all the various Space Marine Chapters can be played successfully depending on the player in question, but IMO the worst general rules for a Chapter would have to be the Black Templars. The Crusader USR isn't all that useful, Adamantium Will is "meh" and no access to Librarians totally kills it for me period.

OTOH, I am in the process of building a sizable Salamanders force mainly because I like their fluff. I realize they don't have the most spectacular Chapter Tactics but it's easy to remember and you don't have to worry about using your special rules at the right time (such as the case with the UM's combat doctrines).

What do the rest of you think?

I pressed Ravenguard by accident....stupid fat fingers.

But I agree with your assessment of the black Templars. Theirs is basically a very very minor buff, and a pretty big nerf.

Black Templars seem to be pretty awul IMO too. I guess they are fine if you don't play against that many psykers though.

What makes marines special? Drop pods.

What makes marines good? Free transports and grav.

Whose chapter tactics don't work in combination with drop pods and vehicles? Ravenguard.

And therein lies your answer.

 Drasius wrote:
What makes marines special? Drop pods.

What makes marines good? Free transports and grav.

Whose chapter tactics don't work in combination with drop pods and vehicles? Ravenguard.

And therein lies your answer.

This. RG have the only CT that have 0 effect on most of the army after turn 1, and have by far the worst named character in Shrike, because GW doesn't know how to write exceptions to rules properly. Also, BTs get Obsec LRCs and can just ally in librarians if they want them. They ALSO have the only IC that gives FNP in C:SM. RG have far less, and were literally the worst until the campaign book, and even then people are asking for Raptors CTs instead because their actually useful.

BA hands down.

If I recall, SW have Counter Attack, right?

So all other armies can actively use their CT, while wolves need their opponent to activate the ability. No matter how useful CA might be, you still can't actively use it.

But it's amazing when it works. SW are basically immune to most other assault lists.

Martel732 wrote:
BA hands down.

BA where never really given one to be fair, and there Tactic/Special Rules can actually be very effective with the right units, such as DC, SG, Assault Marines, etc. I voted BT because they lack a lot right now as for some reason GW nerfed one of the more popular Chapters. Then again they propably did that to make people go different Chapters

Kinda surprised someone voted IF, they actually have a very good Chapter Tactic. It all comes down to utilizing the right units that fit there Chapter Tactic best.

Mantis warriors: free multilasers Psykers get divination...

Blood Angels don't lose out because of their Chapter Tactics. They lose out because of other reasons in their codex. Furious Charge is not a bad things to have if you have the ways to bring it into the mix. It would be awesome on a Crusader Squad or 20-man 30k Tactical squad with CCWs. On ASM or WS3 Scouts, it's not impressive.

Black Templars have the units for good armies, but their Tactics are just so meh. I know a Templar player or two and they'd rather play 30k rules than 40k Templars because of how limp they feel the bonuses are.

Mantis Warriors need a serious update to make them worthwhile.

 Drasius wrote:
What makes marines special? Drop pods.

What makes marines good? Free transports and grav.

Whose chapter tactics don't work in combination with drop pods and vehicles? Ravenguard.

And therein lies your answer.

That's a fair enough assessment, however the new Kauyon detachments do synergies well with Ravenguard tactics.

I don't think the stand alone armies like Wolves or Blood Angels really fit well in a tactics comparison considering they have their own versions of units that have their "tactics" baked into the unit profile such as 2 special weapons for Grey Hunters, Split Fire for Long Fangs, Rage for Blood Claws, etc.

As for actual Codex:Space Marines it sadly must go to Black Templar. As an army the Templar just don't function very well and lack the elements to make their playstyle work. At least Raven Guard in their Detachment seems decent enough and it does work to some extend.

Black Templar, because to take advantage of their special rules is to throw away other advantages.
Want to use the Crusader rule? You have forgo transports in favor of footslogging, and you can't use it on the turn you charge.
Want to get your close combat buff? You have to lose models to enemy fire first.
Liking your improved psychic save from Adamantium Will? You would have gotten that anyways from psychic hood if only you could take librarians.
Want to use your AV14 Obsec Transports? Can't use it with a Gladius Strike Force, so you lose Obsec on the rest of your army.
Want to use Centurions and Drop Pods? Gives you literally no advantages compared to... every other chapter tactics.

The special snowflake marines (BA, DA and SW) have arguably worse army-wide rules, but they make up for it with better unique units (Death Company, Thunderwolves, Ravenwing, etc.)

Black Templars lose the best generic HQ in the book and can't use their unique Troops choice in any of the formations that calls for Tactical Squads. Ultramarine Tactics are better for melee than Black Templars, which is a joke. Raven Guard might not have much at all, but at least their Chapter Tactics do not actively make the army worse.

 DanielBeaver wrote:
Black Templar, because to take advantage of their special rules is to throw away other advantages.
Want to use the Crusader rule? You have forgo transports in favor of footslogging, and you can't use it on the turn you charge.
Want to get your close combat buff? You have to lose models to enemy fire first.
Liking your improved psychic save from Adamantium Will? You would have gotten that anyways from psychic hood if only you could take librarians.
Want to use your AV14 Obsec Transports? Can't use it with a Gladius Strike Force, so you lose Obsec on the rest of your army.
Want to use Centurions and Drop Pods? Gives you literally no advantages compared to... every other chapter tactics.

The special snowflake marines (BA, DA and SW) have arguably worse army-wide rules, but they make up for it with better unique units (Death Company, Thunderwolves, Ravenwing, etc.)

Nah, the Dark Angels have some fairly useful chapter wide tactics in the form of an overwatch buff that only gets better when used in formations.

If this voting was based on the previous codex, I would have voted Black Templar a long with you guys, but, since the new one dropped, we only got better. Well, the improvements to the Emperors Champion weren't technically Chapter Tactics, but its still a benefit exclusive to the BT.

But from my experience playing as Black Templar, I have had zero problems facing off against Dark Angels or Space Wolves. But again, much of that was not due to the chapter tactics as it was the marine rules in general. Although I do use the Emperors champion and he usually does some nice close combat work.

But honestly I use the drop pod assaults and charging from a land raider. So when I lose a model to overwatch, I am only going to be better in combat. And being able to deny on a 5+ has definitely saved me in the past.

 Icculus wrote:
Well, the improvements to the Emperors Champion weren't technically Chapter Tactics, but its still a benefit exclusive to the BT.

I do like the buffs to the Emperor's Champion (he's kind of usable now, instead of just being a joke). But that coin has two sides - Helbrecht remains embarrassingly terrible.

 DanielBeaver wrote:

 Icculus wrote:
Well, the improvements to the Emperors Champion weren't technically Chapter Tactics, but its still a benefit exclusive to the BT.

I do like the buffs to the Emperor's Champion (he's kind of usable now, instead of just being a joke). But that coin has two sides - Helbrecht remains embarrassingly terrible.

I think knocking off ten points would make Helbrecht a little more appealing.

I edited the poll a bit and added two more options. The GK's and "Other" for FW chapters.

Firehawks. Deep striking flamers gain +1 str......ok
Vanguard gaon scoring? Boring