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 Frozocrone wrote:
I hope it dies more and more each day now.
Had a large game with some mates earlier (32k total).
It got really boring really fast.

At the same time, I don't want the people to lose their jobs. But GW design team needs to stop collaborating, because they clearly aren't doing a good job.

I think the problem here is assuming that the design team is anything resembling what it used to be in earlier editions, as opposed to a product specialist team that's more responsible for simple document assembly & trademark proofing. I think at this point in time, the idea that the "design team" is doing any actual game design, as opposed to simply presenting a product catalog with some "usage suggestions" (read: rules), would be in error

40K is very Healthy in my area. But, its not king.

 Byte wrote:
40K is very Healthy in my area. But, its not king.

Can you elaborate on healthy? Not to sound rude, I just want to know what that means to you, since I come from other games where healthy means something completely different than it does in 40k, and I'd like to get a reference point for this game.

Is 40k dead? I think they are still selling models. I'd say it's dead in the heart of many die hard players thanks to gw alienating them as they transition into a "model" company. That's much worse to me. Other company's may have less players, but they seem happier with their games and rules set.

There are as many people in our local group as there used to be in 5-th. Or maybe even more. Mostly new. Almost everyone who played 5-th left with the arrival of 6. That allowed me to purchase orkses for cheapo, btw.

But now, there's always enough people to fill at least 3 tables. Sometimes, we've got 5.

Ours is doing fine as well and I see just as much people as ever there. And that's in the many years I glanced over at the 40k players before becoming one. A few of the oldest are getting out of it for various reasons, but then "young" players like myself fill the gap.

 dusara217 wrote:
The hate train has no brakes.

No I think GW is on a downhill train without brakes.

I personnally do not like the GW commercial policy and that's why I never buy their books and modelism stuff. Playing IG, I always buy my vehicule second-hand. The only money I give to GW is for my infantry, which I need new in the box for my conversion imperatives.

That being said, I recently joined a very nice LGS in Paris, where the meta is closely administrated to eliminate the power creep between official codexes and where you can play your own rules if they are validated. I spoke with the store manager, who is not exactly in a unpopulated region with low income and aged population. It's Paris, there are plenty of players, more than anywhere in France and he said 40k was not enough to make his store live on.

I know the words of one isolated store manager are not enough to analyse a trend but regarding what I read on Dakka everyday + the situation of the store exposed above, I feel like he's going through the same things; for the 6th he sold almost 70 rulebooks but it fell to 25 when the 7th launched. Now, his 40k range is limitated to the most popular units and occupy a very small space among Infinity, Magic and Warmachine. He told me he was in contact with other LGS in Paris and they all see the same things: 40k is slowly and surely being replaced by Warmachine, principally, and other cheaper and simplier games. And the trend is getting faster since the release of AoS and latest 40k OP stuff. AoS is not working well in his area, and he sold like 5 boxes since the beginning and not that much WFB minis. He did not even spoke about the AoS books; there are two or three in his shelf, they have not moved since I arrived in Paris in september. Plus, he told me he was fed up with GW being too harsh with LGS and it convinced him to switch to other brands.

Once again, this is a complete micro-analysis, nothing to draw macro conclusions about. But there is certainly something wrong with GW and if they keep thinking they are the best while their competitors get stronger in the shadow, they'll soon experience something very bad for them.

For the big Christmas 40k tournament, we barely gathered 12 players. Last night, there were Magic / Malifaux tournaments, and almost 40 people were playing in the store. I think it's clear enough.

We really don't have to speculate. GW's falling revenue in a growing market kind of speaks for itself.

Declining maybe. However, ME of all people went to the Warhammer shop that opened up about 45 minutes away... and walked out with a box of Khorne Berserkers to start a Khorne Daemonkin army for their escalation league starting in January.

That speaks volumes I think, given how vehement I am against GW's price gouging and gakky rules. Don't get me wrong, I still dislike the fact they charge more than everybody else for virtually everything, and the fact that they don't care about making a game, but I feel if you play with the right people (and I hope the people at the Warhammer store are the right people) then 40k can be enjoyable. It just requires the same upfront efforts that many historical games require, when it shouldn't.

but I feel if you play with the right people (and I hope the people at the Warhammer store are the right people) then 40k can be enjoyable. It just requires the same upfront efforts that many historical games require, when it shouldn't.

Totally agree with this. The problem is that the mere fact people have to bear the cost of tweaking the game can divert some and make the stop playing.
Not all the LGS have noblebright players who can invest time in adapt the rules and make them really enjoyable !

 RazgrizOne wrote:

but I feel if you play with the right people (and I hope the people at the Warhammer store are the right people) then 40k can be enjoyable. It just requires the same upfront efforts that many historical games require, when it shouldn't.

Totally agree with this. The problem is that the mere fact people have to bear the cost of tweaking the game can divert some and make the stop playing.
Not all the LGS have noblebright players who can invest time in adapt the rules and make them really enjoyable !

It's only on that, it's the fact that LGS culture in general is typically the opposite of "club culture" where you don't mind having "Club Rules" that outline house rules, and everybody at least knows everybody else so they aren't going to bring max cheese just to win a game, because they want an enjoyable evening with enjoyable people. LGS/PUG culture, on the other hand, encourages the notion of turning up with what you want, playing a game, and then leaving and maybe not seeing/playing that person again for weeks, if sometimes ever again. It encourages playing the game to win the game and go home feeling that you "won" rather than that you had a fun time with your buddies. It's hard to explain, really, but it's what I've seen and not just in tabletop games. Now, you can have both in the right circumstances, but 40k can IMHO only work with "club culture" and tends to hit a wall with "LGS culture" because LGS culture wants to have balanced rules so you are roughly evenly matched against random opponents.

There's another game shop, also about 45 minutes away, that has a strong 40k following, but I'm pretty certain they are the "LGS Culture" and "competitive" minded 40k shop, so I am reluctant to play there but I feel I owe it to myself to check it out and see, as maybe there are some people who don't want that type of play that I can get with and have leagues and campaigns and actual fun, narrative games versus "Here's my 1850 tournament army I'm taking to <big name con> next month, gg" that tend to be no fun and touch nothing of the rich background of 40k.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Have you no sense of decency?

A sense of decency is exactly WHY I do it.

GW is an aimless, wandering, tantrum-throwing, bully of a company.

I feel I am best served by steering anyone not trapped in their gravity well from entering it.

jamesk1973 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Have you no sense of decency?

A sense of decency is exactly WHY I do it.

GW is an aimless, wandering, tantrum-throwing, bully of a company.

I feel I am best served by steering anyone not trapped in their gravity well from entering it.

Well said

WayneTheGame wrote:


It's only on that, it's the fact that LGS culture in general is typically the opposite of "club culture" where you don't mind having "Club Rules" that outline house rules, and everybody at least knows everybody else so they aren't going to bring max cheese just to win a game, because they want an enjoyable evening with enjoyable people. LGS/PUG culture, on the other hand, encourages the notion of turning up with what you want, playing a game, and then leaving and maybe not seeing/playing that person again for weeks, if sometimes ever again. It encourages playing the game to win the game and go home feeling that you "won" rather than that you had a fun time with your buddies. It's hard to explain, really, but it's what I've seen and not just in tabletop games. Now, you can have both in the right circumstances, but 40k can IMHO only work with "club culture" and tends to hit a wall with "LGS culture" because LGS culture wants to have balanced rules so you are roughly evenly matched against random opponents.

There's another game shop, also about 45 minutes away, that has a strong 40k following, but I'm pretty certain they are the "LGS Culture" and "competitive" minded 40k shop, so I am reluctant to play there but I feel I owe it to myself to check it out and see, as maybe there are some people who don't want that type of play that I can get with and have leagues and campaigns and actual fun, narrative games versus "Here's my 1850 tournament army I'm taking to <big name con> next month, gg" that tend to be no fun and touch nothing of the rich background of 40k.

There are parts of the world where the rent is too high for clubs to exist, and people have the option to play at stores or not at all, and the idea that somehow wining is not fun, is so laughable. I have not seen a country or a city that won a worlds or a championship, and was sad about it. Winning is automaticly fun, losing can be made not un fun.

jamesk1973 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Have you no sense of decency?

A sense of decency is exactly WHY I do it.

GW is an aimless, wandering, tantrum-throwing, bully of a company.

I feel I am best served by steering anyone not trapped in their gravity well from entering it.

Then I must conclude you have a weird sense of decency. Harassing people with your personal emotions and grudges is rude. You may not view it as harrasment, but if you approached me in such a manner, I would. As would many other people, I am sure.
I also disagree with your view of GW. They are not aimless or bullying, but GW is far larger than other miniatures company, and has lost contact with its roots as a miniatures company and its fans. GW only aims at pleasing its shareholders, making profit and protecting its copyright, like any big company does. This is the root of the problem, not that the GW managers are mean-spirited dimwits who don't know what they're doing.

GW did and does bully FLGS, and they do it a lot. And the fact that they think AoS is a good idea, does prove that they are aimless. I mean the very idea that a company that got so big because people wanted to play their games, suddenly does a 180 and decides it was not the games, but the models that got them all the money speaks volume about their level of understanding of anything.

After reading an article sort of outlining the history of Warhammer as a game, I don't think that it's the company's fault, entirely. The issue is that the Sales Division took charge of GW, and they only care about making a quick buck. Something Priestly said: "One thing Bryan [Ansel, former head of GW,] said was that if the sales people got to be in charge of the studio, it would destroy the studio, and that’s exactly what happened.” I think that the moment that Kirby took over was the moment GW started heading downhill.

 dusara217 wrote:
After reading an article sort of outlining the history of Warhammer as a game, I don't think that it's the company's fault, entirely. The issue is that the Sales Division took charge of GW, and they only care about making a quick buck. Something Priestly said: "One thing Bryan [Ansel, former head of GW,] said was that if the sales people got to be in charge of the studio, it would destroy the studio, and that’s exactly what happened.” I think that the moment that Kirby took over was the moment GW started heading downhill.

I don't know if the Sales Team have that much input into 40K

The main person that seems to be driving 40K is Jervis, judging by his past standard bearer articles. He wrote about doing away with the FOC and that balance is a bad thing years ago.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
GW only aims at pleasing its shareholders, making profit and protecting its copyright, like any big company does.

Except GW sucks at doing those things, which makes them incompetent morons. If you're going to screw over your customers to make your shareholders happy then you should at least succeed at it. But, instead, GW has chosen the option where they trash their product lines and make the customers unhappy while simultaneously struggling to avoid losing money every year and generally making any investor who is actually paying attention think very carefully about the wisdom of holding GW shares.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bartali wrote:
The main person that seems to be driving 40K is Jervis, judging by his past standard bearer articles. He wrote about doing away with the FOC and that balance is a bad thing years ago.

This is true. Jervis is an incompetent moron who would have been fired and blacklisted by any decently-run company, but apparently he's sleeping with the CEO and nobody can even consider getting rid of him. His delusional rants on game design have been around for years, and you can trace a lot of the game's current problems back to him. Excessive interference from managers with no real understanding of game design isn't helping the situation but even without them the game would probably still suck.

I wonder if there's one competent guy in GW, who keeps getting ignored. so that their meetings basically go like this:

JJ is sitting in an ivory turn. His column has shown that there is a gap between him and the player base.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
GW only aims at pleasing its shareholders, making profit and protecting its copyright, like any big company does.

Except GW sucks at doing those things, which makes them incompetent morons. If you're going to screw over your customers to make your shareholders happy then you should at least succeed at it. But, instead, GW has chosen the option where they trash their product lines and make the customers unhappy while simultaneously struggling to avoid losing money every year and generally making any investor who is actually paying attention think very carefully about the wisdom of holding GW shares.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bartali wrote:
The main person that seems to be driving 40K is Jervis, judging by his past standard bearer articles. He wrote about doing away with the FOC and that balance is a bad thing years ago.

This is true. Jervis is an incompetent moron who would have been fired and blacklisted by any decently-run company, but apparently he's sleeping with the CEO and nobody can even consider getting rid of him. His delusional rants on game design have been around for years, and you can trace a lot of the game's current problems back to him. Excessive interference from managers with no real understanding of game design isn't helping the situation but even without them the game would probably still suck.

I’m not sure incompetent is the right word for Jervis.

He’s been very competent in pushing his vision of 40K out to the world. 5th ed was perhaps the antithesis of Jervis-40K, and since then Alessio has gone and two quick editions later he’s bought the game around to Jervis-40K. It remains to be seen if he'll take 40K to the full Jervis of AoS

If anything, it's the management who are incompetent. Not seeing that good rules=sales, and that Jervis is taking the game in a direction that is loosing players and sales.

Bartali wrote:
He’s been very competent in pushing his vision of 40K out to the world.

And his "vision" is one of almost unbelievable incompetence. You could write an entire book on the way that Jervis fails to grasp incredibly basic concepts of game design and, through either stupidity and/or sheer narcissism, proudly declares that he has found the One True Way To Play Games. He's a small child smearing the contents of his diaper all over the walls and saying "look mommy, I made a picture".

Is 40k dying?

I wouldn't say dying but definitely declining as prices reach lofty new heights and we now have mini-titans roaming the fields. The game as it stands probably needs a re-invention as there can only be so much more expansion/things to shoe horn in. Now if we put space marines on square bases and gave them crossbows...

 SpinCycleDreadnought wrote:
Is 40k dying?

I wouldn't say dying but definitely declining as prices reach lofty new heights and we now have mini-titans roaming the fields. The game as it stands probably needs a re-invention as there can only be so much more expansion/things to shoe horn in. Now if we put space marines on square bases and gave them crossbows...

Watch them merge AoS and 40k.

 wuestenfux wrote:
JJ is sitting in an ivory turn. His column has shown that there is a gap between him and the player base.

Or maybe it is so high that clouds form between him and everyone else .

My favorite quote from Rick Priestly
“The role I had in the studio was with staff working on game development and design, and they’d pretty much decided that game development and design wasn’t of any interest to them. The current attitude in Games Workshop is that they’re not a games company, it’s that they’re a model company selling collectibles. That’s something I find wholly self-deceiving and couldn’t possibly agree with.”

And he said creativity is lacking in the game design department.

As with the Rick Priestly thread it has been demonstrated that discreet elements of GW games are of interest if not the whole of it so it is not "dying" per-se.
The rules are a mess (40k) and it looks like anyone with some good basic game design skills have moved-on.
So GW will continue to shrink in customer base, they may never truly die but they will waste away to nothing if some changes are not made.
Jervis stopped making sense to me a long time ago, I want a strategy game on the table not some RPG with each player alternating being GM.
In the end, we are barely even getting that, since they make models not games now.
My friends and I have moved on to more exciting games for a while, we shall see if they can pull a new rule-set out that may be of interest in the years to come.

Until they decide that getting serious about rules, this "hibernation" (between rules releases waiting for a "good one") could become a death in the long term as interest dwindles.