Poll |
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SHOULD NERF IGNORES COVER |
-2 to cover saves |
 
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30% |
[ 42 ] |
-1 to cover saves |
 
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9% |
[ 13 ] |
-3 to cover saves |
 
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4% |
[ 6 ] |
-tau from game |
 
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24% |
[ 33 ] |
-checkboxes |
 
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32% |
[ 44 ] |
Total Votes : 138 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/18 21:53:54
Subject: ITC POLL REMOVES IGNORES COVER
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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My solution to "rerollable Jink saves" is to remove Jink saves from the Cover heading.
Jink saves should be their own thing. Hell, FW has been giving things the ability to ignore/reduce Jink saves for a LONG time now.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/18 21:56:16
Subject: ITC POLL REMOVES IGNORES COVER
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
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This guy is so mad about tau. Honestly who cares if the entire army gains BS10 and ignore cover if shooting at the same unit.. it's ONE unit.
The entire tau contingent is designed to kill deathstars. Is that why your bitter?
I would be more than happy to see 1 marker -1 cover. Wouldn't change anything because most tau players don't rely on marker lights for that alone.
Besides.. even if you remove tau from the picture you really underestimate the availability to other armies. Tossing it to the side guard pass a leadership test to gain ignores cover. My Guard friends cast about 4 orders a turn.
The new librarious conclave.. tiggy.. relics. SM are well covered. Seer councils. The only ones that don't readily gain ignore cover tend to be armies that have insane cover themselves or use other means of dealing with the threat.
Also... I brought up D weapons because yes.. they don't care about cover.. which is pretty on topic to me. I play eldar all the time, I have learned how to deal with them. Learn to deal with marker lights they have been the same for a long time.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/18 22:16:32
Subject: ITC POLL REMOVES IGNORES COVER
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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Yeah...no.
I suggest you get a clue before you start accusing people of being "so mad about tau".
Honestly who cares if the entire army gains BS10 and ignore cover if shooting at the same unit.. it's ONE unit.
The entire tau contingent is designed to kill deathstars. Is that why your bitter?
"You're".
And no. I run no deathstars. I've run Cover heavy foot lists(last Eldar book I ran War Walkers, Illic Nightspear, and upgraded Rangers for a themed Alaitoc list and I'm currently running a Raptors Chapter force for Space Marines) for quite some time, and against anything not Tau? I do fairly well--because despite your insistence that every army has this crazy abundance of Ignores Cover?
It ain't true.
I would be more than happy to see 1 marker -1 cover. Wouldn't change anything because most tau players don't rely on marker lights for that alone.
Prior to the new book, you're right. They didn't rely solely on Markerlights for Ignores Cover.
They would also throw in a Commander with the MSS and use Markerlight tokens for Pinpoint instead.
Besides.. even if you remove tau from the picture you really underestimate the availability to other armies. Tossing it to the side guard pass a leadership test to gain ignores cover. My Guard friends cast about 4 orders a turn.
I really don't underestimate the availability, because despite what you're insisting? It doesn't exist.
Guard passing a leadership test to gain Ignores Cover on a single unit and not applicable to vehicles requires the Company Commander to be within 12 inches of the unit they're applying the Order to.
If ANY of those Orders rolled double 6s? They would be locked out of using any Orders for the remainder of their turn.
It would be like if you rolling 1s to hit with Markerlights locked out the Markerlight network.
The new librarious conclave.. tiggy.. relics. SM are well covered.
Librarius Conclave requires you to roll the power on Divination. You don't automatically get it.
Additionally, taking Tigurius with the Librarius Conclave? That requires a separate CAD if you're fielding a White Scars detachment as you cannot mix and match Chapter Tactics.
Seer councils.
Again, you need to roll "Perfect Timing".
The only ones that don't readily gain ignore cover tend to be armies that have insane cover themselves or use other means of dealing with the threat.
Or that just plain don't have an abundance of Ignores Cover. Know the only way Skitarii get Ignores Cover?
Onager Dunecrawlers with Icarus Array. Their only Ignores Cover is Skyfire, so only hits ground targets on 6s.
Their only other way to deal with Cover save heavy armies? Spam the hell out of Luminagen weapons and have Omnispex(10 point upgrade) on every Ranger/Vanguard unit they bring.
Know how Cult Mechanicus get Ignores Cover?
A single formation, and it requires the Kastelan Robots in the formation to score unsaved Wounds, glancing, or penetrating hits on an enemy unit with a weapon that has the Luminagen special rule--and then it grants the Kataphron Destroyer units(max of 3 in the formation) Ignores Cover and +1 BS.
Also... I brought up D weapons because yes.. they don't care about cover.. which is pretty on topic to me. I play eldar all the time, I have learned how to deal with them. Learn to deal with marker lights they have been the same for a long time.
D weapons don't care about Cover on a roll of a 6. Otherwise you can still make a save.
This topic isn't about D weapons though. You're just throwing crap out and pretending it's some kind of wise insight.
The reality is, as I said, that only Tau have the kinds of crazy on demand Ignores Cover that makes them so dangerous to bike heavy armies. And that's fine.
What isn't fine is that as a sidestep it completely wrecks any armor that depends on Cover saves when fighting Tau, like Guard or Skitarii.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/18 23:28:49
Subject: ITC POLL REMOVES IGNORES COVER
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Grizzyzz wrote:I brought up D weapons because yes.. they don't care about cover..
... 1/6 of the time.
Usually, cover is a perfectly good defense against D weapons.
OTOH, if D-weapons always ignored cover, like they used to, and should, that would be one thing. But it's not.
Clearly, we need an "ITC" poll for D-weapons to always ignore cover!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/18 23:45:52
Subject: ITC POLL REMOVES IGNORES COVER
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Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle
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JohnHwangDD wrote: Grizzyzz wrote:I brought up D weapons because yes.. they don't care about cover..
... 1/6 of the time.
Usually, cover is a perfectly good defense against D weapons.
OTOH, if D-weapons always ignored cover, like they used to, and should, that would be one thing. But it's not.
Clearly, we need an "ITC" poll for D-weapons to always ignore cover!
And you know who gets a lot of D weapons? Eldar...
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H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
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Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
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mrhappyface- "They're more what you'd call guidlines than actual rules" - Captain Roboute Barbosa
Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/18 23:59:55
Subject: ITC POLL REMOVES IGNORES COVER
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Tactical_Spam wrote: JohnHwangDD wrote: Grizzyzz wrote:I brought up D weapons because yes.. they don't care about cover..
... 1/6 of the time.
Usually, cover is a perfectly good defense against D weapons.
OTOH, if D-weapons always ignored cover, like they used to, and should, that would be one thing. But it's not.
Clearly, we need an "ITC" poll for D-weapons to always ignore cover!
And you know who gets a lot of D weapons? Eldar...
Shh....
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/19 00:00:14
Subject: ITC POLL REMOVES IGNORES COVER
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Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard
Catskills in NYS
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CthuluIsSpy wrote:jade_angel wrote:Alternatively, I might be OK with removing Markerlights completely, if some of the major Tau units were BS4 instead of BS3. (Before you mention Guard, remember that they have psykers, orders and a lot of Blast/Large Blast weapons, plus the option to buy units that do have BS4, and here I'm proposing to remove Tau's equivalent to psykers and orders)
They are an iconic Tau gimmick though.
It would be like taking away IG platoons, Necron RP / WBB, and Eldar psi.
They just need to be nerfed. A BS bonus is fine. Being able to ignore saves is not fine.
Not even that, just bring them down to the -1 cover per marker that they used to, and bring back the ability to decrease ld for the purposes of tests forced on them by that unit.
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Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote:Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/19 04:17:15
Subject: ITC POLL REMOVES IGNORES COVER
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Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy
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The biggest problem with this rule, and ones simmilar to this rule, is that it it completely removes chance from the game which makes it not fun.
I think that removes cover would have not been a problem for tau in 5th addition becuse they did not have all this spammable strength 9 ap 2 blast. Also the BRB rules did not completly favor shotting armies as it does now.
I think a fun game is always having some chance to do something, even if the chance is small. Simply putting models on the table and praying that the other guy shoots really really bad, which is highly unlikely, to just take of models with absolutly no chance of getting any form of save is no fun to anyone, especially true for ork and tyranid players.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/19 05:18:22
Subject: Re:ITC POLL REMOVES IGNORES COVER
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Honored Helliarch on Hypex
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@Kanluen. Every army pretty much "needs to take something" to get ignores cover. Space marines can take multiple Auspex in a unit to decrease cover to almost nothing. Marines and Eldar have so many psy options that if they need the ignores cover power they should be able to get it. Bike and Cav armies move so fast that they can get into CC by turn two so that ignores the ignore cover (as can one of the mechanicus units) heh. Marines can also take the thunder fire cannon (which usually is getting a 2+ cover save itself). Guard also have a mortar vehicle that fires ignore cover (can't remember the name....just that it was brutal on my bugs and had a metric crap ton of small blast shots heh). The odds of guard getting it through orders is pretty good as well. Doesn't Mechanicus get ignores cover for a turn if they use the conclave formation? So many armies have flamers or template weapons...that ignore cover. Tau have to "take" marker lights so a shooting unit loses its ability to hurt something(tax seems to be the popular word here hehe) in order to put those markers on you...and at a dismal BS. It seems to me to be an even playing field (I play several different types of armies but sold all my marine stuff in sixth edition and have not built it back up yet).
If we use this discussion as a basis for rules voting then I suggest we put out a poll asking to ban psychic powers since the Tau and Dark Eldar don't have any and it's very bad for them. Ban Scout on marine bike armies because it is bad for my bugs and Tau...and my dark Eldar (but of course everything is bad for them heheh). Or we ban Grav because it is harsh for Eldar. Anything can look bad if taken out of context. There are weaknesses to the Tau that compensate for their strength. MEQ has much fewer weaknesses as compensation for all the benefits they receive and will always be top tier, if not for the rules then because whenever something comes out that can hurt them TO's ban it or nerf it because of discussions like this one. Heck I wish more tournaments went back to victory points as main objectives to help decrease all these spam armies and MSU since just about everything is objective or progressive objective based.
And again I don't see how this is an ITC voting topic so I would recommend changing the title.
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I do what the voices in my wifes head say...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/19 13:45:00
Subject: Re:ITC POLL REMOVES IGNORES COVER
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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Fishboy wrote:@Kanluen. Every army pretty much "needs to take something" to get ignores cover. Space marines can take multiple Auspex in a unit to decrease cover to almost nothing.
Do you know how many Auspex you need to take in order to do so?
Five Auspex to get the Cover Save to a 6+. And Auspex are ONLY available on HQ options.
Marines and Eldar have so many psy options that if they need the ignores cover power they should be able to get it.
Not all Marine armies have access to Librarius Conclave. The new Raven Guard Detachment cannot take it.
Bike and Cav armies move so fast that they can get into CC by turn two so that ignores the ignore cover (as can one of the mechanicus units) heh.
Not the same thing as Ignores Cover, now is it?
Marines can also take the thunder fire cannon (which usually is getting a 2+ cover save itself).
Okay, and? That's an Artillery piece that if it gets its Cover save stripped is going down hard.
Guard also have a mortar vehicle that fires ignore cover (can't remember the name....just that it was brutal on my bugs and had a metric crap ton of small blast shots heh).
The Wyvern is well-known to be wildly undercosted, and it really isn't competing with anything beyond Leman Russ tanks for the Heavy Support slots.
The odds of guard getting it through orders is pretty good as well.
And those odds vanish completely if you kill the Company Command Squads. They're the ONLY way to get that Order.
Doesn't Mechanicus get ignores cover for a turn if they use the conclave formation?
Nope. There is no way to get Ignores Cover beyond Onagers with Icarus Arrays or fielding an Elimination Maniple to give Ignores Cover to your Kataphron Destroyers.
So many armies have flamers or template weapons...that ignore cover. Tau have to "take" marker lights so a shooting unit loses its ability to hurt something(tax seems to be the popular word here hehe) in order to put those markers on you...and at a dismal BS. It seems to me to be an even playing field (I play several different types of armies but sold all my marine stuff in sixth edition and have not built it back up yet).
Nobody uses Pathfinders for anything beyond Markerlights. And Markerlights Drones (spoiler alert here) sacrifice their weapons to have Markerlights instead.
And Pathfinders are BS3, same as Guardsmen.
If we use this discussion as a basis for rules voting then I suggest we put out a poll asking to ban psychic powers since the Tau and Dark Eldar don't have any and it's very bad for them. Ban Scout on marine bike armies because it is bad for my bugs and Tau...and my dark Eldar (but of course everything is bad for them heheh). Or we ban Grav because it is harsh for Eldar. Anything can look bad if taken out of context. There are weaknesses to the Tau that compensate for their strength. MEQ has much fewer weaknesses as compensation for all the benefits they receive and will always be top tier, if not for the rules then because whenever something comes out that can hurt them TO's ban it or nerf it because of discussions like this one. Heck I wish more tournaments went back to victory points as main objectives to help decrease all these spam armies and MSU since just about everything is objective or progressive objective based.
What weaknesses compensate for their ability to entirely remove Cover across multiple units firing as one with additional BS?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/19 13:45:55
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/19 14:26:03
Subject: ITC POLL REMOVES IGNORES COVER
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Mutilatin' Mad Dok
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To add to this, I'm fairly certain the only way orks get "Ignore Cover" is from the Burna Bomms off of the Burna-Bommer, which is a paper-thin flyer unit.
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"The undead ogre believes the sack of pies is your parrot, and proceeds to eat them. The pies explode, and so does his head. The way is clear." - Me, DMing what was supposed to be a serious Pathfinder campaign.
6000 - Death Skulls, Painted
2000 - Admech/Skitarii, Painted |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/19 14:44:11
Subject: ITC POLL REMOVES IGNORES COVER
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Lethal Lhamean
Birmingham
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For what it's worth I think Ignores Cover should come in a variety of flavours. Most of the time it should just be a -1 or -2 modifier, which I'd hope we could all agree is good but hardly over powerd, with only flamer templates and the more powerful larg blast templates getting a straight up Ignores Cover (and in the case of the latter only in the event of a direct hit).
Re-rollable jink saves should be banned outright.
I think the way Tau markerlights work along with their massive force multipliers and the ability to run Stormsurges, Ghostkeels and Riptides in squads are big problems but a separate topic. Same goes for the Eldar Farseer psychic trickery, the overabundance of scatter lasers and the under costing of the Wraithknight.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/19 14:47:46
Subject: ITC POLL REMOVES IGNORES COVER
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Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle
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Imateria wrote:For what it's worth I think Ignores Cover should come in a variety of flavours. Most of the time it should just be a -1 or -2 modifier, which I'd hope we could all agree is good but hardly over powerd, with only flamer templates and the more powerful larg blast templates getting a straight up Ignores Cover (and in the case of the latter only in the event of a direct hit).
Re-rollable jink saves should be banned outright.
I think the way Tau markerlights work along with their massive force multipliers and the ability to run Stormsurges, Ghostkeels and Riptides in squads are big problems but a separate topic. Same goes for the Eldar Farseer psychic trickery, the overabundance of scatter lasers and the under costing of the Wraithknight.
Scatterlasers are too common and a Wraithknight should be an Apoc unit, though Unbound (wallet) rules says you can just through the standard CAD in favour for anything.
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H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
Ruin- It's official, we've ran out of things to talk about on Dakka. Close the site. We're done.
mrhappyface- "They're more what you'd call guidlines than actual rules" - Captain Roboute Barbosa
Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/19 15:55:37
Subject: ITC POLL REMOVES IGNORES COVER
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Auspex do not stack.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/20 00:21:08
Subject: Re:ITC POLL REMOVES IGNORES COVER
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Honored Helliarch on Hypex
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I just played in an ITC event against a DA bike squad with three auspex in a bike unit. Took my 3+ cover on my bugs to a six and the judge told me they do stack. All that plasma ate my lunch hehe. Add in that he scouted 12", moved 12" and was in double tap range turn one and in range for all his psy powers ( but I guess that is all okay because it is a MEQ army so it can't be broke huh...). He also had several psy powers that ignore cover so please don't cry for the DA. Nova powers ignore cover so again....no tears for all those psy heavy armies.....Tau can't counter the psy powers so invisibility is extra harsh, all the leadership based psy powers are also harsh. Summon spam lists are also tough.
Don't orks have burna boys anymore? I know they used to have burns trucks too but I am not up on the Ork codex.
Kuan I tried to make a logical argument for you to show you how common ignore cover is but it seems like you are too busy crying that your beer mug is half empty. Tau marker lights do what they are supposed to do and yes...benefit the Tau. Tau can't compete in the psy phase at all, suck in cc, and have to manipulate the list to get enough marker lights to do what they need.
As a side note I play bugs, haemonculus cult, old Eldar foot slogging list ( from fourth edition heh), but am planning on a Tau list mainly due to reading the Kauyan fluff. I am on the receiving end of ignores cover far more than the giving end but I do see soooooo many options for ignore cover throughout most codex's that I just don't see the big deal. If someone is spamming marker lights in a Tau list then they are buying fewer units that do actual damage. I guess I don't understand the perceived rage.
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I do what the voices in my wifes head say...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/20 01:11:02
Subject: ITC POLL REMOVES IGNORES COVER
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Lethal Lhamean
Birmingham
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Tactical_Spam wrote: Imateria wrote:For what it's worth I think Ignores Cover should come in a variety of flavours. Most of the time it should just be a -1 or -2 modifier, which I'd hope we could all agree is good but hardly over powerd, with only flamer templates and the more powerful larg blast templates getting a straight up Ignores Cover (and in the case of the latter only in the event of a direct hit).
Re-rollable jink saves should be banned outright.
I think the way Tau markerlights work along with their massive force multipliers and the ability to run Stormsurges, Ghostkeels and Riptides in squads are big problems but a separate topic. Same goes for the Eldar Farseer psychic trickery, the overabundance of scatter lasers and the under costing of the Wraithknight.
Scatterlasers are too common and a Wraithknight should be an Apoc unit, though Unbound (wallet) rules says you can just through the standard CAD in favour for anything.
Way to answer the main point of my post.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/20 04:04:46
Subject: Re:ITC POLL REMOVES IGNORES COVER
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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Fishboy wrote:I just played in an ITC event against a DA bike squad with three auspex in a bike unit. Took my 3+ cover on my bugs to a six and the judge told me they do stack.
Then that judge was an idiot.
A unit that is targeted by one or more auspexes has its cover save reduced by 1 until the end of the phase
All that plasma ate my lunch hehe. Add in that he scouted 12", moved 12" and was in double tap range turn one and in range for all his psy powers ( but I guess that is all okay because it is a MEQ army so it can't be broke huh...).
'Scuse me, where did anyone say that?
He also had several psy powers that ignore cover so please don't cry for the DA. Nova powers ignore cover so again....no tears for all those psy heavy armies.....Tau can't counter the psy powers so invisibility is extra harsh, all the leadership based psy powers are also harsh.
Invisibility is only really counterable by Tau if it's already gone off. Markerlight counters let you boost yourself back up to your normal BS, if not still exceed it(in the case of the Ranged Support Cadre). Summon spam lists are also tough.
Don't orks have burna boys anymore? I know they used to have burns trucks too but I am not up on the Ork codex.
Templates != Ignores Cover in the same way that you are thinking.
Kan I tried to make a logical argument for you to show you how common ignore cover is but it seems like you are too busy crying that your beer mug is half empty.
You do understand that "things which function like Ignores Cover" are not the same thing as "things which grant Ignores Cover to other things that could use it", right?
I get that you believe you're genuinely making a point--but you are completely missing the point that myself and others are making. There is effectively NO downside to running Markerlights. You have no real negatives. You lose Pulse Carbine shots in exchange for granting Ignores Cover and/or Ballistic Skill boosts to units that can deliver obscene amounts of firepower.
Tau marker lights do what they are supposed to do and yes...benefit the Tau. Tau can't compete in the psy phase at all, suck in cc, and have to manipulate the list to get enough marker lights to do what they need.
That's not even remotely true anymore.
If I take a Ranged Support Cadre, my three Pathfinder teams get to double the value of any Markerlights placed if used by any of the three Broadside units in the formation.
The Pathfinders also gain Infiltrate and Shrouded, provided they don't move from their starting location and they don't make any attack with any weapon beyond their Markerlights(with double Markerlight counters...why would you EVER do that?)--and the Broadsides can Supporting Fire for the Pathfinders as long as they have weapon range.
As a side note I play bugs, haemonculus cult, old Eldar foot slogging list ( from fourth edition heh), but am planning on a Tau list mainly due to reading the Kauyan fluff. I am on the receiving end of ignores cover far more than the giving end but I do see soooooo many options for ignore cover throughout most codex's that I just don't see the big deal. If someone is spamming marker lights in a Tau list then they are buying fewer units that do actual damage. I guess I don't understand the perceived rage.
Because you haven't actually ever really played against a competent Tau player who used the new lists?
And quite frankly, you listing off weapons that Ignores Cover shows that you don't really grasp the crux of the argument here:
Tau have the ability to grant Ignores Cover across large chunks of their army now, with no realistic penalties or downsides in a way that other armies have to actively build around/get lucky for.
You cannot BUILD around having Perfect Timing or always being able to pull off "Fire on My Target". You CAN however build around having large amounts of Markerlight counters and performing Coordinated Firepower attacks as Tau.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/20 04:19:18
Subject: ITC POLL REMOVES IGNORES COVER
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Mutilatin' Mad Dok
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Orks do have burna boyz, but the only weapon that truly gets "ignore cover" in our codex are the burna bomms, which are gonna be super rare since the other two fliers are leagues better. And I probably won't take burnas any time soon either, since they're so goddam flimsy, have gak range, and take up a slot I could use for a lot better things. But having one unit and one flier with ignores cover doesn't really compare to an entire army being able to deny cover whenever the hell they want, wherever the hell they want, at absolutely zero risk.
In general, I'm not against the ignores cover rule. It's a fine thing that can make a unit real nice n' scary. And I'm really not that sore about my codex having pretty much none of it- I don't get lance either, but that's because it doesn't matter that much to my army. The issue is that Tau basically don't have to worry about cover ever, and that's removing a gigantic part of the game.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/20 04:20:06
"The undead ogre believes the sack of pies is your parrot, and proceeds to eat them. The pies explode, and so does his head. The way is clear." - Me, DMing what was supposed to be a serious Pathfinder campaign.
6000 - Death Skulls, Painted
2000 - Admech/Skitarii, Painted |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/20 04:21:41
Subject: ITC POLL REMOVES IGNORES COVER
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Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle
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Tau get all the special rules and can ignore all the special rules... We call that Fair at GW HQ
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H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
Ruin- It's official, we've ran out of things to talk about on Dakka. Close the site. We're done.
mrhappyface- "They're more what you'd call guidlines than actual rules" - Captain Roboute Barbosa
Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/20 04:49:34
Subject: ITC POLL REMOVES IGNORES COVER
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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There is a huge difference between a single S4 AP5 Flamer that requires the firing model to be within 8" of the nearest target, and granting "Ignores Cover" to Tau firepower or something more substantial.
But really, the big problem is with Invulnerable / Jink / other saves being better than a 4+ in any form, much less rerollable.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/20 05:01:49
Subject: ITC POLL REMOVES IGNORES COVER
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Mutilatin' Mad Dok
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Yeah, those marine skimmers with the re-rollable +2 saves are goddam stupid. But like it's been said before, markerlights aren't a solution to this, and they shouldn't be. The rules just need to be reworked so that 2+ rerollable saves aren't easily achievable.
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"The undead ogre believes the sack of pies is your parrot, and proceeds to eat them. The pies explode, and so does his head. The way is clear." - Me, DMing what was supposed to be a serious Pathfinder campaign.
6000 - Death Skulls, Painted
2000 - Admech/Skitarii, Painted |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/20 05:15:55
Subject: ITC POLL REMOVES IGNORES COVER
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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Said it before a hundred times, saying it yet again.
Jinks need to be their own save. It's stupid that "Ignores Cover" gets put out to counter Jinks.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/20 05:24:53
Subject: ITC POLL REMOVES IGNORES COVER
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Mutilatin' Mad Dok
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Kanluwen wrote:Said it before a hundred times, saying it yet again.
Jinks need to be their own save. It's stupid that "Ignores Cover" gets put out to counter Jinks.
That's not a bad idea, actually. That way armies could get more "ignore jink" than "ignore cover," and cover bonuses wouldn't stack with jink saves.
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"The undead ogre believes the sack of pies is your parrot, and proceeds to eat them. The pies explode, and so does his head. The way is clear." - Me, DMing what was supposed to be a serious Pathfinder campaign.
6000 - Death Skulls, Painted
2000 - Admech/Skitarii, Painted |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/20 05:36:49
Subject: ITC POLL REMOVES IGNORES COVER
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Dakka Veteran
Miles City, MT
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Vitali Advenil wrote: Kanluwen wrote:Said it before a hundred times, saying it yet again.
Jinks need to be their own save. It's stupid that "Ignores Cover" gets put out to counter Jinks.
That's not a bad idea, actually. That way armies could get more "ignore jink" than "ignore cover," and cover bonuses wouldn't stack with jink saves.
This is actually a pretty good idea. I hate to make the game any more complex, but I think this would be a lot less of a cantankerous change. It would also allow for maybe finding a role for some weapons that no longer have one.
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Twinkle, Twinkle little star.
I ran over your Wave Serpents with my car. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/20 07:11:18
Subject: ITC POLL REMOVES IGNORES COVER
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
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Kanluwen wrote:Said it before a hundred times, saying it yet again.
Jinks need to be their own save. It's stupid that "Ignores Cover" gets put out to counter Jinks.
Its not a bad move. The one thing you need to balance out in this change is the fact there currently is no ignore jink save units. The only one I can think of is dark reapers..
This also means that fliers would essentially have a 4+ save you can't remove.. making some flyers very powerful.. crimson hunter formation comes to mind.
@Kan, ranged support cadre is cool and all but you won't see it used. Other formations are better. I think you will see a trend of less marker lights in general now because of bonuses like combined fire.
It's been said by a few others taus access to marker lights is a neccessity because shooting is the phase they need to win. If you removed marker lights, nothing except the relic can grant ignore cover and they would have less ignore cover access then other armies.
Explain to me how access to ignore cover and weapons that ignore cover are so different that you can't discuss them together? I get it, access to it is "better" but the rest should not be ignored.
It also should be noted that once you take out the marker light source, you can really cripple the Taus offense because of their lower BS stat. Not as much now because of the newer contingent and some formation bonuses, but it's still a large factor. Another reason why they are meant to be good upfront.
I have never played a game where I had markerlights last more than a few turns. They usually get flamed by a pod, or inevitably fail a leadership.
What I love about tau now, is the fact I don't run marker lights at all in some of my lists. They just aren't needed in mass like they used to be.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/20 13:43:54
Subject: ITC POLL REMOVES IGNORES COVER
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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Grizzyzz wrote: Kanluwen wrote:Said it before a hundred times, saying it yet again.
Jinks need to be their own save. It's stupid that "Ignores Cover" gets put out to counter Jinks.
Its not a bad move. The one thing you need to balance out in this change is the fact there currently is no ignore jink save units. The only one I can think of is dark reapers..
This also means that fliers would essentially have a 4+ save you can't remove.. making some flyers very powerful.. crimson hunter formation comes to mind.
The Hydra Flak Tank, prior to Robin Cruddace getting his filthy meathooks on it, had the ability to ignore Jink saves and the ability to prevent their target from moving Flat Out.
@Kan, ranged support cadre is cool and all but you won't see it used. Other formations are better. I think you will see a trend of less marker lights in general now because of bonuses like combined fire.
Already seen it played actually. It's brutal on armies that like to assault, because if one charges those Pathfinder teams? You're getting Overwatched from across the board. Don't underestimate the RSC. Ever.
It's been said by a few others taus access to marker lights is a neccessity because shooting is the phase they need to win. If you removed marker lights, nothing except the relic can grant ignore cover and they would have less ignore cover access then other armies.
Er, not really. If one looks at the number of weapons that most armies have with Ignores Cover? You're about at the sweet spot of around 1-3 weapons that aren't Flamers or Barrage with Ignores Cover.
Explain to me how access to ignore cover and weapons that ignore cover are so different that you can't discuss them together? I get it, access to it is "better" but the rest should not be ignored.
I shouldn't have to explain how the ability to give Ignores Cover on demand to your heavy hitting weapons that don't come with Ignores Cover as standard is better than building a list around weapons with Ignores Cover.
One of those abilities allows you to build your army to take on anything or everything while just ensuring you have a viable source of Markerlights.
The other restricts you to build around options with Ignores Cover or randomized chances to get Ignores Cover(like Psykers with Divination; unless you have a Psyker who gets to pick their powers? You have a chance to get that Power, not a guarantee) that you have to mitigate.
It also should be noted that once you take out the marker light source, you can really cripple the Taus offense because of their lower BS stat. Not as much now because of the newer contingent and some formation bonuses, but it's still a large factor. Another reason why they are meant to be good upfront.
That's great and all, but so are Guard. Guard aren't "good upfront" though. The new Cadian Detachment does a lot to offset that, but the tax you pay to use the Detachment and its bonuses is obscene. My current list is looking at around 2450 just so I could add some Skyfire in the form of ML with Flakk. I can just eke out 2300 points if I remove Flakk.
That list is for no auxiliary choices as well. That 2300 points gets me:
2 Company Command Squads
3 Platoon Command Squads
15 Infantry Squads, with mixes of Plasma/Meltaguns and Missile Launchers, alongside of Vox-Casters.
9 Armored Sentinels; 6 with Autocannon and 3 with Plasma Cannon.
If you want to complain about bringing Markerlights--I'd gladly trade you issues.
I have never played a game where I had markerlights last more than a few turns. They usually get flamed by a pod, or inevitably fail a leadership.
Not every army is bringing pods or has reliable options for deep strike.
If your Pathfinders are getting flamed by Drop Pods, where is your EWO in all of this? It's a 5 point upgrade for Interceptor. There is literally no excuse not to take it.
What I love about tau now, is the fact I don't run marker lights at all in some of my lists. They just aren't needed in mass like they used to be.
Yep. They're really not; especially if you just run Optimised Stealth Cadres
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/20 17:37:36
Subject: ITC POLL REMOVES IGNORES COVER
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Moscow, Russia
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I haven't done the math on this to be sure, but I suspect that a problem is that, if you make 1 markerlight reduce cover saves by 1, it generally becomes mathematically better to use it to increase BS by 1 instead.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/20 17:54:42
Subject: ITC POLL REMOVES IGNORES COVER
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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Alcibiades wrote:I haven't done the math on this to be sure, but I suspect that a problem is that, if you make 1 markerlight reduce cover saves by 1, it generally becomes mathematically better to use it to increase BS by 1 instead.
Which is why time and time again, I have said to make it not "Markerlights reduce 1 point of cover per token expended". Make it so that a Markerlight that hits removes a point of cover and spread out some more cover reduction into other items.
And really, it makes no sense at this juncture that a laser pointer makes it impossible for a unit to hide in a building.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/20 18:10:15
Subject: ITC POLL REMOVES IGNORES COVER
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Moscow, Russia
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Kanluwen wrote:Alcibiades wrote:I haven't done the math on this to be sure, but I suspect that a problem is that, if you make 1 markerlight reduce cover saves by 1, it generally becomes mathematically better to use it to increase BS by 1 instead.
Which is why time and time again, I have said to make it not "Markerlights reduce 1 point of cover per token expended". Make it so that a Markerlight that hits removes a point of cover and spread out some more cover reduction into other items.
And really, it makes no sense at this juncture that a laser pointer makes it impossible for a unit to hide in a building.
They're clearly not laser pointers, but some kind of sophisticated data-sharing thingie, and they do not allow you to fire through walls.
Why have a point of ML remove cover by 1 if you can get the same effect by increasing BS?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah I did the math. At least against lightly armored targets like Orks, until you hit BS6, increasing BS and reducing cover save by 1 point per markerlight have identical effects, so you might as well not have any ignored cover effect at all.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/12/20 18:20:47
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/20 18:25:04
Subject: ITC POLL REMOVES IGNORES COVER
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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Alcibiades wrote: Kanluwen wrote:Alcibiades wrote:I haven't done the math on this to be sure, but I suspect that a problem is that, if you make 1 markerlight reduce cover saves by 1, it generally becomes mathematically better to use it to increase BS by 1 instead.
Which is why time and time again, I have said to make it not "Markerlights reduce 1 point of cover per token expended". Make it so that a Markerlight that hits removes a point of cover and spread out some more cover reduction into other items.
And really, it makes no sense at this juncture that a laser pointer makes it impossible for a unit to hide in a building.
They're clearly not laser pointers, but some kind of sophisticated data-sharing thingie
Have you actually read the fluff on Markerlights?
They actually are effectively "laser pointers", just like the current SOFLAM systems in use. It's a laser designator.
Now, where things get interesting is that the Tau have a widespread "data-net" of which Markerlights are a part of the data being relayed around--but there is no real way to effectively represent that on the tabletop.
and they do not allow you to fire through walls.
And yet, that's what it does for basically everything in the Tau book. Pulse Rifles, Carbines, missile pods, etc all can suddenly start popping through walls at people.
I would be fine with Heavy Railrifles, Railguns, and Railrifles gaining the ability to Ignore Cover when firing at a Markerlight target and only using the "solid shot" variant--but that's for a different thread.
Why have a point of ML remove cover by 1 if you can get the same effect by increasing BS?
Read what I posted, not what you thought I posted.
This is what I posted:
Which is why time and time again, I have said to make it not "Markerlights reduce 1 point of cover per token expended". Make it so that a Markerlight that hits removes a point of cover and spread out some more cover reduction into other items.
You seem to still be under the impression that I'm saying "Each Markerlight counter should remove a point of cover". Absolutely not. I'm saying that rather than giving out Ignores Cover to every flippin' thing in the Tau arsenal, it should be that a Markerlight hit removes a point of cover at the cost of no counter. Rework "Scour" entirely and make it so that it can remove Stealth or Shrouded on units in the open or enables a Tau unit to declare the ruins/fortifications that a unit are sheltering in as a target.
Also, in what world is removing a point of cover the same effect as increasing Ballistic Skill?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/20 18:30:03
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