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Made in gb
Stitch Counter





The North

HoundsofDemos wrote:
its odd since in AOS chaos has gotten so much love, but none in 40k


Daemons, Everchosen and Khorne Bloodbound - not for classic Warriors of Chaos

I fear this may be what's happening in 40K - with the addition of Khorne Daemonkin (bloodbound eqv.), Daemons and I'm yet to work out if there will be something similar to Everchosen there.

Thousand Sons: 3850pts / Space Marines Deathwatch 5000pts / Dark Eldar Webway Corsairs 2000pts / Scrapheap Challenged Orks 1500pts / Black Death 1500pts

Saga: (Vikings, Normans, Anglo Danes, Irish, Scots, Late Romans, Huns and Anglo Saxons), Lion Rampant, Ronin: (Bushi x2, Sohei), Frostgrave: (Enchanter, Thaumaturge, Illusionist)
 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




In fantasy, Chaos has always been weird (assuming you mean chaos warriors and not beastmen or daemons).

They have gone from the strongest list to average, though I don't believe they were ever weak. Near the end, before AoS, they were good but not the best. They simply didn't magic well enough, and magic became the strongest thing in the entire game.

In earlier additions warmachines and ranged weapons were a lot stronger, and chaos suffered. They could destroy if they reached CC but rarely managed to do so, and static CR was insanely strong. Then they got that weird cannon which was one of the best warmachines in the game and started doing amazing.
   
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USA

Akiasura wrote:
 Melissia wrote:
Akiasura wrote:
Sisters would get more complaints

https://anotherschwab.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/miss-the-point.png
That statement wasn't about Sisters players complaining. It was people saying Sisters players complain too much, even though Marine players do almost nothing BUT complain, and we don't actually have many threads where Sisters players complain.

You are literally the only person I've seen ever say this.


*eyes the other posts in this thread agreeing with me*

That's because you haven't paid much attention.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/23 21:20:38


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




 Melissia wrote:
Akiasura wrote:
 Melissia wrote:
Akiasura wrote:
Sisters would get more complaints

https://anotherschwab.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/miss-the-point.png
That statement wasn't about Sisters players complaining. It was people saying Sisters players complain too much, even though Marine players do almost nothing BUT complain, and we don't actually have many threads where Sisters players complain.

You are literally the only person I've seen ever say this.


*eyes the other posts in this thread agreeing with me*

That's because you haven't paid much attention.


You are saying that other people in this thread agree that people claim sisters complain too much? Or that marines do nothing but complain? Because I was clearly talking about the former, and have seen none of this in thread.
Either way, this is an appeal to mob rule, which doesn't make you right. And you, once again, being quite crass for no reason isn't needed. Try providing some evidence that doesn't also link up with what I've claimed as well, as the people agreeing with you fit my take on things quite nicely.

But hey, if you have someone saying sister players complain too much feel free to quote it or link it. It should be pretty easy to do if its so common. I could link people complaining about marines and insulting players several times in this thread, and going outside of this it'd be pretty easy to do as well. Same with many of the points I made.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/23 21:53:08


 
   
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USA

I'm not sure if you're being serious.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Melissia wrote:
I'm not sure if you're being serious.


Are you going to link to something in this thread or no? I did the courtesy of re-reading it, but didn't see anything.
   
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USA

I'm not touching that strawman with a ten foot astartes..

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I wasn't aware asking someone to back up a claim they have made is a strawman.

Live and learn
   
Made in fi
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine






Finland

Just make a list that doesn't include a lot of Jetbikes with Scatter Lasers, or Warp Spiders and people should play you just fine. Or take 2 lists of different power levels, and find out with your opponent which kind of game he would prefer.

If not, then they are probably so prejudice they were probably not worth your time anyway.

Don't be discouraged, believe it or not there are people out there who are actually fine playing against Eldar and not becoming depressed if they lose.

   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





The thing is people say eldar are op because other people SAY the are op. Very few people own all the things to make them op.

It is like and experment have 10 people, tell 8 of them how op something is starting with those who just lost to it. Wimple say hey its not your fault you loss those damn ..insert name... Are just op do this two or three times. The one guy who does use them will be tild they are op and everyone will carry it on.

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It depends on your local meta. We happen to have someone who played each craftworld since...I want to say 3rd. So our iyanden player and saim-hann player were quite well off when the new codex dropped, and as the biel-tan player, I wasn't bad off at all.

Oddly enough, the ulthwe and alaitoc player were the worst off, which was very weird for anyone who played the earlier editions.
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Melissia wrote:
I'm not touching that strawman with a ten foot astartes..

Asking for proof is not a strawman. Quit being a stereotypical Sisters player and accept you're wrong.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

Eldar are indeed very powerful compared to most of the books out there, that's just a simple fact, however they are just good compared to the current 7.5 books, marines, crons and tau will have issues beating a competitive eldar list but it can be done, but the issue is that the older books all have serious issues with eldar, orks, nids....poor poor nids, guard etc. Are all at a very large disadvantage straight off the bat, and that's the problem, hopefully when all the books are updated properly it will not be as much as an issue, but we've all heard that before lol
   
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Martel732 wrote:
I still don't understand the marine hate, because they weren't anything special until GRAV CENTS and INVISIBLITY DUDE FROM FW. Eldar have been godly since the Clinton administration.


Or.

You know.

Since GW decided to give them huge army wide mix-n-match special rules for massive decreases, then double down with downright absurd formations.

Sure, not every unit is perfect "out of the box" but at least 75% is above the curve of viability with the optimal configuration/formation.

And before we talk more about Eldar: Banshees, Pheonix Lords not named Jain Zar, Rangers, Storm Guardians, Wraithblades, any vehicle not called a Wave Serpent, Shining Spears, Dark Reapers, Vypers, Wraithlords, and Avatars are all average to below average. Eldar is lucky enough to have at least one thing per slot that's great, and three units that are best-in-show when properly equipped/combo'd. That makes them currently the best army in the game. That does not make their whole codex amaze-balls. The internet may like to think that every person playing a particular faction brings only the best thing possible, gets every favorable outcome and plays like a tourney winner but it's just not true.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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If marine units were good, ba wouldn't be the worst list in the game.

I'd say 75% of marine units are not good.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/24 01:26:28


 
   
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Martel732 wrote:
If marine units were good, ba wouldn't be the worst list in the game.

I'd say 75% of marine units are not good.

Or its just all hyperbole and BA aren't as bad as you think they are
   
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 CrownAxe wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
If marine units were good, ba wouldn't be the worst list in the game.

I'd say 75% of marine units are not good.

Or its just all hyperbole and BA aren't as bad as you think they are


Come play them and give me another list and i'll show you. Or try playing vanilla without gladius, skyhammer, or a gravstar. They aren't good because marine vehicles suck and imperial heavy weapons are subpar sans grav cannon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Personally I find the offer of army swap most accusations of hyperbole with ba.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/24 01:35:50


 
   
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Martel732 wrote:
 CrownAxe wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
If marine units were good, ba wouldn't be the worst list in the game.

I'd say 75% of marine units are not good.

Or its just all hyperbole and BA aren't as bad as you think they are


Come play them and give me another list and i'll show you. Or try playing vanilla without gladius, skyhammer, or a gravstar. They aren't good because marine vehicles suck and imperial heavy weapons are subpar sans grav cannon.

I've seen space marines play well without the crutchs. It may not be gladius or scatbike good but that doesn't make them absolutely awful. It's probably more likely that you aren't as good at the game as you think you are. Being around for 20 years doesn't automatically make you a good player

I'd be happy to switch armies with you

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/24 01:37:15


 
   
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Possibly, but its been a very long time since ive lost an army swap or even a mirror match.
   
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USA

 CrownAxe wrote:
Being around for 20 years doesn't automatically make you a good player
Certainly the truth, there.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
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Little Rock, Arkansas

To back up Martel a little here, in torrent of fire's figures on major events of the last couple years, BA are always drowning in losses, usually last or near last in fact.

That of course refers to competitive play though. It's hard to get good figures of non-competitive play, since being non-competitive typically leads to the results being unrecorded. That just leaves us with anecdotes, unfortunately.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And as far as anecdotal evidence is concerned:

When I play my BA, I typically win, but it feels like a hard fought battle that could've swung the other way at any time, and occasionally has a pure luck shot like one-shotting a flyer with a snapshot melta. I frequently find myself hoping that something works, because if it doesn't, that flank has no backup plans.

When I play as core marines, my wife's eldar, or my buddy's tau, I win a lot, and I rarely feel like the game was in contention. When I throw out a tactic, I feel like if it fails, I tend to feel like I have two or three options that I could repurpose on the fly that turn to fix the error.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/24 03:50:37


20000+ points
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Not as Good as a Minion






Brisbane

Everyone, let's keep it polite

I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own... 
   
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 niv-mizzet wrote:
To back up Martel a little here, in torrent of fire's figures on major events of the last couple years, BA are always drowning in losses, usually last or near last in fact.

That of course refers to competitive play though. It's hard to get good figures of non-competitive play, since being non-competitive typically leads to the results being unrecorded. That just leaves us with anecdotes, unfortunately.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And as far as anecdotal evidence is concerned:

When I play my BA, I typically win, but it feels like a hard fought battle that could've swung the other way at any time, and occasionally has a pure luck shot like one-shotting a flyer with a snapshot melta. I frequently find myself hoping that something works, because if it doesn't, that flank has no backup plans.

When I play as core marines, my wife's eldar, or my buddy's tau, I win a lot, and I rarely feel like the game was in contention. When I throw out a tactic, I feel like if it fails, I tend to feel like I have two or three options that I could repurpose on the fly that turn to fix the error.


That mirrors my experiences against the middle tier lists. I hate needing pure luck. It's super frustrating because with tau and eldar, they roll so many dice that they can't really get unlucky.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge




What's left of Cadia

I think people dislike Eldar because GW took an already good codex, and made it even better, when there are several codices that have been needing updates for far longer (CSM, BA, IG etc...). As an Eldar player I like that my faction gets support, but I can understand why other people are irritated with the Eldar book. Many units got unnecessary buffs (looking at you scatbikes and WK....), and now even our "mediocre" units are pretty dang good. That being said, all the hate against Eldar is depressing as an Eldar player, as even if I take the most relaxed list I can people still view me as a WAAC TFG, and let me tell you, it is NOT a nice feeling. To any of the other Eldar players in this thread, how do you minimize that hate?

TheEyeOfNight- I swear, this thread is 70% smack talk, 20% RP organization, and 10% butt jokes
TheEyeOfNight- "Ordo Xenos reports that the Necrons have attained democracy, kamikaze tendencies, and nuclear fission. It's all tits up, sir."
Space Marine flyers are shaped for the greatest possible air resistance so that the air may never defeat the SPACE MARINES!
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum
 
   
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I don't blame eldar players for playing their codex. Where do you stop the nerfing? DA level? SW level? Nids? BA?
   
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Kansas, USA

I don't hate eldar players. I dislike the concept of eldar, just their lore in general doesn't appeal to me. Yet, in no way do I hate eldar players. Trust me, I've lost a fair number of games against eldar, but to be fair, I play CSM, so I lose a fair number of games anyway.Yet very few of them have been unpleasant games, because even though I was facing a nigh impossible challenge, most of my opponents were pretty cool and I enjoyed their company. The one's that stuck out as unpleasant, I took a mental note not to play them again.

It's the players that make the game. Our armies are just our little plastic avatars. Nothing more, nothing less. Put simply OP, If they are too close minded to even play with you. They are not worth playing with. Move along, there are plenty of other gameshops out there.

"Because we couldn't be trusted. The Emperor needed a weapon that would never obey its own desires before those of the Imperium. He needed a weapon that would never bite the hand that feeds. The World Eaters were not that weapon. We've all drawn blades purely for the sake of shedding blood, and we've all felt the exultation of winning a war that never even needed to happen. We are not the tame, reliable pets that the Emperor wanted. The Wolves obey, when we would not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we never could. They have discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with the Butcher's Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls.

The Wolves will always come to the heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn't behave that way. Only a dog does.

That is why we are the Eaters of Worlds, and the War Hounds no longer."
- Eighth Captain Khârn  
   
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War Kitten wrote:I think people dislike Eldar because GW took an already good codex, and made it even better, when there are several codices that have been needing updates for far longer (CSM, BA, IG etc...). As an Eldar player I like that my faction gets support, but I can understand why other people are irritated with the Eldar book. Many units got unnecessary buffs (looking at you scatbikes and WK....), and now even our "mediocre" units are pretty dang good. That being said, all the hate against Eldar is depressing as an Eldar player, as even if I take the most relaxed list I can people still view me as a WAAC TFG, and let me tell you, it is NOT a nice feeling. To any of the other Eldar players in this thread, how do you minimize that hate?


Eldar are what they are because ultimately GWs releases are not driven by balance or peoples tears, it is about PROFIT. They know that a new Eldar book is going to make more money then a new Chaos book... They release new demons because they hit both the 40k market and the AoS market.. and by doing so assume that CSM players will be happy because they can ally in game (if they give any care at all).

Space marines are the same way. And Tau's release in general is either showing GWs new approach to how they will release new content, or was a plan to just make a lot of extra money off of the Tau community.

Mr_Piddlez wrote:I don't hate eldar players. I dislike the concept of eldar, just their lore in general doesn't appeal to me. Yet, in no way do I hate eldar players. Trust me, I've lost a fair number of games against eldar, but to be fair, I play CSM, so I lose a fair number of games anyway.Yet very few of them have been unpleasant games, because even though I was facing a nigh impossible challenge, most of my opponents were pretty cool and I enjoyed their company. The one's that stuck out as unpleasant, I took a mental note not to play them again.

It's the players that make the game. Our armies are just our little plastic avatars. Nothing more, nothing less. Put simply OP, If they are too close minded to even play with you. They are not worth playing with. Move along, there are plenty of other gameshops out there.


I am unsure what list you run for Chaos... My friend has a really fun list he runs that he usually has much success with. At 2000 points.. 6 maulerfiends.. 4 troops in rhinos.. usually a lord and dogs.. few other things.. but its the 6 maulers that are rough I tell you! haha!

Martel732 wrote:If marine units were good, ba wouldn't be the worst list in the game.

I'd say 75% of marine units are not good.


My friend loves his BA. Complains all the time that they got shafted by being updated before the SM codex did (and I agree with that), however, I would say he wins just as much as every one else does. He is a solid player who will always fight to the last man, never gives up. Some things he does in his lists that maybe you should try... he usually plays 2 CADs.. runs about 5 pods, drops in a bunch of assault marines. uses the pods to cut off an opponents force into multiple halves. Also usually runs the Flyer formation (2 talons, raven) it is not in the BA codex, but adds some nice threat to his lists. And of course he loves his deathcompany! Usually runs a large 10 man with some chaplain equivalents. Those guys are always a pain!

*EDIT* The key here is.. he gives you the choice.. shoot at his deathcompany or other units that are marching the table.. or shoot at the guys that are in your face now. it's that dual threat that can be hard to deal with most of the time, and ultimately allows his deathco and others to make it into battle.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/24 14:29:47


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Yes, I'm aware of that trick. However, Tau, Eldar, and others have the firepower to address that trick. Two DC getting into CC won't win the day.

Note that using pods to cut a force up also by definition is making yourself surrounded. That sounds like a really poor plan. Especially against say, another BA list or other assaulty list.

I've run dual CADs before. And the fleshtearer thing. I've had 8 obj sec units. I've had zero. I've had fliers, I've not had fliers. (Marine fliers are weak, imo) It all comes down to mathematical efficacy, and the BA have virtually none of that.

A huge problem is that quite literally nothing in the BA codex is durable. Yes, T4 3+ FNP is no longer durable in the face of grav cannons, Tau, Eldar, and DA lists. The BA codex forces non-choices on opponents because we have no Wraith or TWC equivalent. Opponents can kill 30 power armor bodies in a single shooting phase if pressed. The survivors don't have enough CC punch to get it done. Also, the fliers you listed as completely ignorable, as they don't have enough firepower to justify their cost. Welcome to 7th.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/24 15:08:38


 
   
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Martel732 wrote:
Yes, I'm aware of that trick. However, Tau, Eldar, and others have the firepower to address that trick. Two DC getting into CC won't win the day.

Note that using pods to cut a force up also by definition is making yourself surrounded. That sounds like a really poor plan. Especially against say, another BA list or other assaulty list.

I've run dual CADs before. And the fleshtearer thing. I've had 8 obj sec units. I've had zero. I've had fliers, I've not had fliers. (Marine fliers are weak, imo) It all comes down to mathematical efficacy, and the BA have virtually none of that.

A huge problem is that quite literally nothing in the BA codex is durable. Yes, T4 3+ FNP is no longer durable in the face of grav cannons, Tau, Eldar, and DA lists. The BA codex forces non-choices on opponents because we have no Wraith or TWC equivalent. Opponents can kill 30 power armor bodies in a single shooting phase if pressed. The survivors don't have enough CC punch to get it done. Also, the fliers you listed as completely ignorable, as they don't have enough firepower to justify their cost. Welcome to 7th.


It doesn't always work.. but I am not really sure what you want to hear.. myself and others in the thread all have experience with BA (not being a top tier army) but still not being as depressed and dismal as you make them out to be =P

Maybe BA's just aren't for you? That is why I stopped playing marines in general, I never felt like I truly had control of what was going on, and not because my lists were weak or my units were bad, but simply my strategy and what I liked to do in game didn't mesh with how SMs played.

Tau, Eldar, Nids all fit areas of my play style that I really like. Despite Nids not being updated as Tau and Eldar have been, I actually win more games with my Nids then I do otherwise. Weird how that works sometimes!

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It is very meta dependent. In a competitive meta where everyone abuses allies and formations I can't see mono ba doing well. If people calm it down ba can go up against mid tier armies and squeak out a win, though it's an uphill struggle.

Martel has a very cut throat meta and Ba simply have no place there. He could run them out of Sm, but he'd need to buy bikes and centurions to make use of the best the sm codex has available. I can't blame him for not purchasing new models given the track record of the game.

I play a ton of armies. Not surprisingly, my Sm, Eldar, Tau, and neurons do a lot better than my csm and nids, despite the latter being my favorite armies in the game. Play style matters, but in a game like 40k, list power trumps all.

If this was wmh I'd agree with you. I did better with cygnar than cryx or trolls, and cryx and trolls are stronger than cygnar atm.
   
 
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