Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
If it every catches a tank i'd be amazed, it can only move 6 inches a turn. The only interesting thing it does is a bit of area denial. That might be useful if it wasn't a unit in a meh codex.

6" plus charge you mean. The premise here is that the original poster already is going to use Chaos Marines. So thats not in question. So given he wil, he's wanting to know if the Mutilators can be used and how.

Pointing out that you think its a bad codex doesnt address his question in the least and thats what is flustering me. GIVEN you are going to play a faction, get good advice to use within THAT faction and dont moan about the Jones's.

 Jancoran wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
If it every catches a tank i'd be amazed, it can only move 6 inches a turn. The only interesting thing it does is a bit of area denial. That might be useful if it wasn't a unit in a meh codex.

6" plus charge you mean. The premise here is that the original poster already is going to use Chaos Marines. So thats not in question. So given he wil, he's wanting to know if the Mutilators can be used and how.

Pointing out that you think its a bad codex doesnt address his question in the least and thats what is flustering me. GIVEN you are going to play a faction, get good advice to use within THAT faction and dont moan about the Jones's.

Fair point, i missed him being set on CSM. That said even as cheap as they are I think there are better ways to spend points in that book. As dysfunctional as the book is, if you want an assault unit, Ally in demons. My additional reservation is that the models require me to buy three and are ugly.

Since we seem intent on continuing this stupidity, how is the csm player finding a spare ~180 points for 3 MoN muties? If they are playing competitively, they're taking ~500 points worth of fast attack, be it whatever combination of drakes / Spawn / bikes, then another 500 on hq for Be'lakor and either a tricked out sorcerer or a juggerlord, 100 points of cultists, then 0 - 684 points on Obliterators / havoks. That's already ~1750 pointsdepending on what points level you are building to. You can't fit 3 muties in, and I know I'd rather have a unit of termicideround me out to 1850 that fulfil the same role but are dangerous on the drop.

Maybe if you run a rush list with double cad nurgle biker lords and bike Sorcs in Spawn and 6 maulerfiends, but then, you're better off using your spare FA slots for individual Spawn, which are half the price, significantly faster, almost as dangerous in cc and almost as durable to small arms due to cover and more durable against ap2 due to increased toughness and an additional wound.

There's no room for bad units in a "competitive" CSM list, and muties are bad. They're not scary enough to be a real distraction carnifex and they aren't fast enough to force the issue.

Not to mention you've just given away 3 kill points in purge for no real gain. At least they're not HS or FA I guess, otherwise that would be 2 games they failed at. I guess they would have some use at maelstrom though, but then that's a whole different kettle of fish.

I think this thread hinges on what the OP meant by 'anygood'. Is he asking if mutilators are the winningest unit, or is he interested in how to make mutilators perform their best.

I think this thread has nicely covered these options, and has even mentioned strong alternative units that use similar tactics to mutilators (and maybe use these tactics even more efficiently).


If you are using a fast MSU CSM army it isn't too hard to pen some enemies in. Even when they are able to move, many units sacrifice fire power by moving away. So by surrounding the enemy (or creating your own 'corners') you can mitigate the mutilators lack of speed. That said they are really slow.

That said things can go wrong. One game I was fighting another csm list. I managed to tarpit the Juggerlord, but no deepstrike arrived turn 2 so I have to commit more tarpit for a turn. Turn 3 the termicide and mutilator scatter so there is a gap in the pen should JL clears the tarpit (which he does).
Turn 4 the muti and the termicide both fail some pretty short charges and the JL (injured from 2 rounds of oblit and termi shooting) runs away, but at least I now have a couple of units in the area to grab objectives before the game ends. Overall a poor performance.

I'll run an ork list with csm allies.

MANz in trucks, a bunch of boyz, solo oblits and mutilators. Maybe a termi or biker sorc. Depending on points. If i'll have spare points, i'll run a biker sorc with spawns, if not - just a termi sorc with oblits or mutilators.

So you're going to completely ignore that mutilators, as it turns out, aren't an great distraction because they simply aren't tough enough for their points? Okay...

 Jancoran wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

So, you are relying on the enemy castling up?

Did I say I was? No. I'm explaining what you wanted me to explain. Corners. Someone does not have to castle up strictly speaking for you to build one for them. All you need is the corner. You can create the corners.

You can create an area where two edges of the board meet?
Share with me this mystical power.

 Jancoran wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

2) Your enemy has no interceptor. You have very little deepstrike, even a little interceptor is enough to obliterate the units that fall

You forgot, apparently, that this means they arent firing at anything else next turn? This is bad for me? I don't think that it is. I think it's exactly why a Mutilator is making its points up. Absorbing it, with or without interceptor, is fine.

It depends on the unit that has interceptor. Thinking about most competitive tau lists, I don't think there is much interceptor around, and certainly not any that would be cost effective. It's better just to use a small crisis team or something with splitfire.
So yeah, interceptor could be an effective counter, but in today's meta, isn't.

 Jancoran wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:


You were asked how mutilators reach a unit when they are about as slow as it gets in this game. There was no response.

That, again, is because i already told you why. You didn't like the answer. You thought asking why again was going to illicit a different answer for some reason. I would suggest that if I tell you that it is excellent for acheiving unit saturation on the enemy's front, that you dont need much imagination to understand what I am saying and why their "lack of speed" you put so much stock in becomes effectively irrelevant.

You keep saying unit saturation but aren't declaring how you are getting it.
3 Mutilators as separate units are most likely not going to arrive on turn 2. Certainly not with all of them in range for a charge.
The only units in the chaos main dex that are in melee by turn 2 are bikers. Everything else is strictly turn 3, maybe 4 if they decide to castle near a board edge. It's simply that raptors will move 24+run move and a charge, and that isn't enough to clear the board unless your opponent feels he can out melee you. And let's be honest, many armies can do so.

In 2 turns of shooting 4 units of 5 scat bikes can do any of the following following;
Destroy 8 Rhinos (how much of your target saturation was rhinos?)
Destroy 8 Mutilators
Kill 29.6 Marines (!)
Kill 23.7 Nurgle Marines (Not plague) or non MoN bikers
Kill 17.78 Nurgle bikers

That's just about 750 points of the eldar army. They still have a lot left that can do damage (Dragons, Waveserpents, Spiders, WK, among others) before you get close enough to saturate everything. Eldar aren't the best in melee, but a WK will be a big problem for you and even striking scorpions do okay.

This is why I don't like your answer, and keep hoping you'll give a better one that actually stands a chance of working against better lists . Your strategy works fine for dread mobs and guardian spamming eldar, it falls apart against competitive 40k.

 Jancoran wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

3) Your enemy has big units only that cost 200-300 that the mutilator can threaten effectively so it can serve as a distraction. Considering the better armies run MSU or large deathstars (or worse, both), I don't see this happening.

Just to be clear... You "Dont see" an enemy firing anything over 60 points at it? And those units that are not over 60 points... are going to kill it reliably? All three of them?

As stated, there are almost no units in the game (not even the dreaded grav cent) that kills its point cost in one turn .
Most units are good if they can kill 1/3 of their point cost in a turn, with 1/4 being average and anything less than that being bad.
Costing more than their points to destroy is not a strength of the mutilator, it is a strength of nearly every unit in 40k.
A unit would have to cost between 200-300 for the mutilator to be a distraction. Distraction fexes, for example, usually absorb over 500 points of shooting from many targets that aren't force or str D.

 Jancoran wrote:

That's why you "dont see it happening"? because you think all those little units they have are going to have the complete freedom to target the easy to hide Mutilator and the (lets say) Land Raider or Storm Lord it alighted next to will be disinclined to try and kill it?

Kay.

No competitive list will ever include a land raider and IG are not a competitive faction.
So...considering those units won't exist in a competitive game, I would say that the odds of the mutilator landing next to it are slim to none
As stated, I'm sure your tactics work great if the enemy isn't competitive or good at the game. Most strategies do.

You still haven't said why a mutilator is easy to hide, being so slow and not gaining anything from cover. Is it the inaccurate deepstrike it can't adjust at all?

 Jancoran wrote:

Let me counter propose this idea: NOT all enemies are MSU.

Right, most units are either MSU (cost about ~100 points), are standard units (~150 plus transports) or are deathstars (prices vary but are usually well over 400 if the HQ is included).
I stated as much.

It's just that none of those units are scared of the mutilators.
MSU units and standard units are making a decent percentage of their points back. Deathstars out melee the mutilator and at worse will lose 1 guy, less if they are faster than the mutilator.
This isn't including the fact that most things in the game are a great deal faster than the mutilator anyway.

You, ideally, want a unit that costs 200-300 points that is unsupported and must deal with the mutilator. To your credit, landraiders and Storm Lords are great targets.
To your discredit, competitive lists don't include land raiders and storm lords. Against good lists, the mutilator has no good targets.

 Jancoran wrote:

Further, few if any have less expensive units than this one. Almost none of those less expensive units can do it on their own.

If the unit costs 2x-3x what the mutilator costs, it's an effective use of its firepower to one round the mutilator. Very few (off hand I can't think of any that do it reliably turn after turn) units in this game destroy their point cost in 1 turn. Great units manage it in 2 (like the grav cents) and good units manage it in 3. Average in 4. Bad units in 5.

This is why melee has a hard time being good, fyi. Most melee units don't see combat till turn 3 at the earliest and need to destroy 2 units to be earn their points back. So they, at best, won't see a return till turn 4, and won't impact the enemy army for half the game.
If a melee unit is tough and can be in combat by turn 2, 3 at the latest if your enemy is actively dodging you, then it has a much easier time earning its points back. The mutilator is none of these things, though to be fair if it manages any damage at all its probably done okay.

 Jancoran wrote:

If several are committed to killing just one Mutilator, how big a sad face do you think I'll be wearing? probably not a very big one, right?

If my enemy needed to commit several units to destroy one mutilator, I'd wear a big smile too. I mean, what are they playing where that is the case? A basic marine squad with 2 pgs can one round this guy, and that's not a unit known for its devastating firepower (For the record, they kill 3 marines, which is less points than the mutilator).

 Jancoran wrote:

So theres a few isolated units that if given the opportunity could pop him and while that's true and we already know they would be firing at "something", then I am fine with it being the Mutilator.

Uh, it's more than a few. It's nearly every competitive unit in the game. Many non competitive ones like Tacticals too.
Some of them score only 40 points if they kill your marines, and 60+ if they kill your mutilator. Making firing at your mutilator the better choice , which makes it a pretty bad distraction, no?

 Jancoran wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

5) You manage to deploy enough mutilators on the same turn or the rest of your army is fast enough to threaten the enemy by the time the mutilators arrive to force a fence on the opponent. Chaos is slow and overcosted, so I don't see this as a good strategy against the better armies. YMMV though.

You say that. Yet I'm on top of the enemy in round 2. Thats about as soon as it get in 40K terms, literally. So not slow.

Is your enemy moving towards you? I can see bikes manage it, but not rhinos or raptors.
Unless if on top by you mean charging by turn 3. Which is great, except for the fact the enemy has 2 nearly full rounds of shooting and well...I've already illustrated what just 40% of his army does in 2 rounds.

For the record, charging by turn 3 is average for a melee unit, its not fast. Many of the faster melee units manage to hit melee by turn 2, and good deepstriking units are effective every turn from 1 onwards, 2 at the latest (but they impact the game by turn 2).


Also, you do realize that if the mutilator is destroyed you're down 60 points, but if the same unit of marines fires at your chaos marines, you're only down 40?
I find it odd that you don't know why that's bad

I was lazy one day and decided to mimic Nayden's Lictorshame list using Chaoscrons. Solo Mutilators, solo Obliterators, solo Heavy Destroyers, some cultist Chaff and a pair of Nightscythes. The troop part was weak (Cultists serving as Sorcerer bodyguards) but the results were better than expected overall. Having 14-something multiwound T5 solos at 1850 points as well as 2 units of msu flayed ones went a long way. Anti-invisibility remains the main bugbear of course.

Adding another element to this, what if the Chaos player were experimenting with 7th Edition detachment of their own? The Purge stands out as an obvious way to test this as an army concept without any of the usual dead weight associated with CSM.
It's a FW detachment that requires 1 HQ and 2 Elites. as a minimum. You can then throw a further 4 Elites and 4 Heavy Support on top of that. So if you were to burn the detachment you could get a Nurgle Sorcerer, 6 solo Mutilators and 4 pairs of Obliterators for something like 900pts.
You'd then have a further 950pts to play with Allies. Depending on any game rules you might be limited in the number of Detachments available. If not, you could make a decent headstart by mixing in a Daemonkin Blood Pack to spam out Flesh Hounds, and a second Daemon detachment for Malefic buffs, scatter mitigation and Scoring.

I'm not suggesting that it's capable of fighting Eldar, but it's probably a step up from the 'usual' CSM format.

It doesn't sound terrible, but I think you'd be better off allying in demons.
Nurgle sorcerer isn't great. Ideally casters should be undivided though this isn't always feasible.
Mutilators seem bad since they are relatively fragile for their point cost. They are roughly 2x as tough as a mon marine while being more expensive, slower, and only better in melee.

Obits aren't terrible, and 8 of them seem good. I don't think it's worth 900 points though, at that point I'd rather run Havoks or suicide termites.

I already said they fulfill the Cultist role for The Purge (that you take two detachments for the tax of 220 points). You're better off with Termicide "troops".

I legitimately forgot what Mutilators where. I had to do a google image search and then laughed out loud when I saw. The same with Tau fliers. Whenever I see one I think 'wow that player really kitbashed the hell out of that tank' before I remember that GW actually has a Tau flier kit.

Akiasura wrote:
So you're going to completely ignore that mutilators, as it turns out, aren't an great distraction because they simply aren't tough enough for their points? Okay...

Saying "as it turns out" doesn't make it so. Sorry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:


You can create an area where two edges of the board meet?
Share with me this mystical power.

I did. You didn't read what I wrote (again). You pretended like I didnt adress it (again) so you could (again) ask me this unnecessary question which i already answered).

I told you the corner can be created by units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

It depends on the unit that has interceptor. Thinking about most competitive tau lists, I don't think there is much interceptor around, and certainly not any that would be cost effective. It's better just to use a small crisis team or something with splitfire.
So yeah, interceptor could be an effective counter, but in today's meta, isn't.

Typical again. YOU bring up intercepters as a reason. You do. And I respond. And then you act as if *I* brought interceptor up and come across as minimizing interceptor! What in the world...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

You keep saying unit saturation but aren't declaring how you are getting it.

Not relevant to Mutilators. Im not going to turn this into a list discussion. What I've told you is simple. If you are going to play Chaos. IF... Then you can easily saturate the front line and use Mutilators as a part of that. Go to your codex and figure out how to do it. The central point HERE is that it can be done and when done, Mutilators can play an inexpensive and very effective roll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:



As stated, there are almost no units in the game (not even the dreaded grav cent) that kills its point cost in one turn .

Irrelevant to the actual discussion. Who cares? the point is that this particular one requires multiple units to kill and gives little in return. Some cover or easily obtained line of sight blocking makes it even more unlikely that the Mutilator will necessarily be staring down the wrong barrels. It will happen, dont misquote me on that. Just not as often. So we'll see who the enemy decides to go after, eh?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

You still haven't said why a mutilator is easy to hide,

THIS needs explanation?

It really is like listening to a 10 year old trying to explain why his favorite superhero is the best, when its a d-lister nobody xmen student. You tell them they are wrong and give numerous reasons and examples, but they just start screaming and crying out "nu uh! Your stupid!", like that somehow helps their case. That's what this present discussion is, with the added benefit of condescending tone and passive aggressive statements

Akiasura wrote:

To your discredit, competitive lists don't include land raiders and storm lords. Against good lists, the mutilator has no good targets.

I see. The last ITC event I was at two weeks ago was won by a guy with a Storm Lord. You're welcome to strip him of his title if you think you're good enough. Just tell him he's wrong and I am sure he'll turn that award right over to ya. His Decurion opponent couldn't even defeat him with all that gauss. Shocking since his army consisted of 9 pieces of armor, essentially. Seemed like a match the Decurion should win but...no.

This stilted sense of whats competitive that you have seems to come from a pool of generals who just do not know how to create anything approximating a strategy. Sure they do the calculations like you do and figure out the "strongest unit" and then spam it, or whatever, eschewing those that may not be as strong. They get on Dakkadakka and listen to talking heads tell them not to take anything flexible if it sacrifices killing power to get it. There's definite virtue in numbers so do not misquote me and suggest I don't value the numbers. But the numbers they never consider are opportunity cost which is invisible, and strategic value that may exceed the units actual stats or killing ability. Ablation is another never-foused-upon idea and In a game that mostly features objectives, you simply cannot have this limited a view anymore. You just can't. All these things are definitely of importance and minimizing that is foolish.

That's because vehicle spam actually DOES okay against Necrons because mathematically Gauss isn't something to rely on, you dolt. NOBODY spams Gauss for a reason.

Once again this proves you know little about the game.

Gauss is pretty inefficient against cheap vehicles. Plus,if the Crons are close enough to double tap Gauss into my Rhino, odds are they are getting a visit from the DC on my turn.

 Jancoran wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
So you're going to completely ignore that mutilators, as it turns out, aren't an great distraction because they simply aren't tough enough for their points? Okay...

Saying "as it turns out" doesn't make it so. Sorry.

That's why I provided some, you know, math.
A unit of marines w/ 2 pgs firing at a mutilator kills ~60 points.
A unit of marines w/2 pgs firing at a unit of marines kills ~60 points, ~40 if they are in cover.
The marines in cover are actually tougher than a mutilator, and equal without cover. Cover is pretty common.

 Jancoran wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:


You can create an area where two edges of the board meet?
Share with me this mystical power.

I did. You didn't read what I wrote (again). You pretended like I didnt adress it (again) so you could (again) ask me this unnecessary question which i already answered).
I told you the corner can be created by units.

You defined a corner as the place where 2 board edges meet.
Please explain how units can create an area where 2 board edges meet. If mutilators can do this, it is absurdly overpowered.

 Jancoran wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

It depends on the unit that has interceptor. Thinking about most competitive tau lists, I don't think there is much interceptor around, and certainly not any that would be cost effective. It's better just to use a small crisis team or something with splitfire.
So yeah, interceptor could be an effective counter, but in today's meta, isn't.

Typical again. YOU bring up intercepters as a reason. You do. And I respond. And then you act as if *I* brought interceptor up and come across as minimizing interceptor! What in the world...

Uh, you realize that was me admitting you were right about interceptor?
I know this may shock you, but in debates when one side is wrong, and its proven that they are wrong, they admit it.

 Jancoran wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

You keep saying unit saturation but aren't declaring how you are getting it.

Not relevant to Mutilators. Im not going to turn this into a list discussion. What I've told you is simple. If you are going to play Chaos. IF... Then you can easily saturate the front line and use Mutilators as a part of that. Go to your codex and figure out how to do it. The central point HERE is that it can be done and when done, Mutilators can play an inexpensive and very effective roll.

Considering your whole strategy with mutilators involves target saturation, I would think how to achieve this with chaos by turn 2 is critical to their use.
But if you are unwilling/unable to supply how you manage to get enough targets up there by turn 2 without them being killed, that's fine.

 Jancoran wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:



As stated, there are almost no units in the game (not even the dreaded grav cent) that kills its point cost in one turn .

Irrelevant to the actual discussion. Who cares? the point is that this particular one requires multiple units to kill and gives little in return. Some cover or easily obtained line of sight blocking makes it even more unlikely that the Mutilator will necessarily be staring down the wrong barrels. It will happen, dont misquote me on that. Just not as often. So we'll see who the enemy decides to go after, eh?

First, I didn't misquote you at all. I include what I said, and how you responded directly.

Second, how is a mutilator's toughness not relevant to the discussion? The whole point of the mutilator in this discussion is that it can absorb firepower effectively. If the enemy earns more points killing the mutilator then it does firing at your other troops, it's a terrible distraction. It doesn't take a "wrong barrel" to bring one down effectively, we aren't always talking about units like cents, where your enemy might have one or two units total (though split fire...) we are talking about Tacticals, Avengers, 5 man scat bike squads, marine biker squads, small crisis suit teams...

I mean, a Rhino is a great distraction because it will almost always save you points if it's shot at. There are a few corner cases (haywire if its your only tank springs to mind) but in most cases? Worth it.
The mutilator? It turns out, not worth it.

Third, how is it easily hiding behind LoS blocking terrain? It doesn't have accurate deepstriking, it's slow, but most importantly, it needs to approach the enemy to be a threat . It has to leave LoS blocking cover (maybe not normal cover, but it has an invul so who cares?) eventually or it remains useless.

Fourth, you've claimed a few times now that multiple units are require to kill a mutilator, despite it being shown that 5 scat bikes, a unit of marines with 2 pgs, and several other units (including a single cent) are all capable of doing so quite easy. I asked "What armies require multiple units to kill a mutilator? I can't think of any" and you were unable to provide examples of factions that lack the ability to kill a mutilator with a single unit that costs 2-3x as much in a single turn. They might have a few units that can't, sure, but not factions.
To quote yourself, saying "as it turns out" doesn't make it so.

 Jancoran wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

You still haven't said why a mutilator is easy to hide,

THIS needs explanation?

You mean, do you need to explain why one of the slowest units in the game that needs to reach melee combat to do anything at all is somehow easy to hide?
Because yeah.
You do.

Units that need to reach melee in general are hard to hide, because they must move towards the enemy and end within move+2d6 (and the closer the better, failing a charge can be death).
A unit like the mutilator, who can't even run, pretty much has to move towards the enemy every turn or risk becoming a non-factor.
See how I listed reasons why a mutilator is hard to hide?


Edit;
I don't know why you think anyone I know goes on Dakkadakka or anything. Most of them play WMH most of the time, and even before that, nobody was on here.
It's not hard to look at the codex and realize what units are good and which ones are not. The game isn't complicated.

If someone won with the storm lord, that's great and surprising, although necron do struggle with armor spam. Did he not run into grav cents or eldar?
But considering that, in your meta, the dread mob is considered to be a good list and 3-4 waveserpents were mechdar, I'm not surprised.

I'm trying hard here, really I am. I'm just not seeing mutilators as a problem for BA. That's not a good sign. I've got plasma, grav, melta, power axes, power fists, and dreadnoughts all as hard counters. I'm not even remotely talking smack here, but if you aren't TWC, Wraiths, or some other CC deathstar, you are better off shooting BA to death, not trying your hand at some CC shenanigans. Against "reasonable" units, BA can be quite deadly.

You know something is pretty terrible when a Dreadnought hard counters it!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's because vehicle spam actually DOES okay against Necrons because mathematically Gauss isn't something to rely on, you dolt. NOBODY spams Gauss for a reason.

Once again this proves you know little about the game.

hehehe. Oh does it? he had more than Gauss Slayer-Fan. Good lord. you are just... precious.

You know, people have complained about me on here before, and not totally undeserved, I might add. But I've NEVER been that condescending before.

Martel732 wrote:
Gauss is pretty inefficient against cheap vehicles. Plus,if the Crons are close enough to double tap Gauss into my Rhino, odds are they are getting a visit from the DC on my turn.

There were no Rhinos. A Stormlord. Gauss gets its moneys worth against that. Even a couple hull points here and there pays big given it comes from WARRIORS!

That aside, the StormLord took all comers. I comment on the Decurion because Akiasura thinks its a competitive thing to do. The reality is, the guy is a really good General and he had a tough list to damage. It was a good list. Surprising too. you don't see lists like his too often.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

That's why I provided some, you know, math.

No. what you did was repeat what I already know and have said: it can be killed. No one said otherwise so repeating yourself as if it was a revalation is...pointless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

You defined a corner as the place where 2 board edges meet.

re-read the post again and then get back to me. I very specifically told you in the post that it could be either a board edge or a unit edge, so to speak. Go read it again and again until you get it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:


Considering your whole strategy with mutilators involves target saturation, I would think how to achieve this with chaos by turn 2 is critical to their use.

It is. But its an entirely different thread for you to start. I think anyone with two cells connected by a synapse can crack open the codex and figure out how to get there in round two. Heldrakes, rhinos, Raptors, Bikes, Maulerfiends, outflanking steeds with Spawn and all kinds of fun other ideas. Whatever else you would like to bring that's fast. I don't care what you use. That's up to you and your list proclivities. I'm just telling you that if you do employ that strategy, Mutilators are a good add.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

You mean, do you need to explain why one of the slowest units in the game that needs to reach melee combat to do anything at all is somehow easy to hide?
Because yeah.
You do.

Units that need to reach melee in general are hard to hide, because they must move towards the enemy and end within move+2d6 (and the closer the better, failing a charge can be death).
A unit like the mutilator, who can't even run, pretty much has to move towards the enemy every turn or risk becoming a non-factor.
See how I listed reasons why a mutilator is hard to hide?
.

Um... I know you're actually smarter than this so you're just trolling me. But sure, I'll bite. Mutilator drops. rhino moves in front. or. Mutilators drops behind cover since it cant shoot anyways. Or, Mutilator drops BEHIND the enemy tank using that tanks girth for cover and LOS blocking. Now it must (not always) turn to fire which still keeps me blocked somewhat or it can choose not to fire and make way for other units to kill me.

Another way: simple cover from other units flooding forward. Another way: target priority. It can simply not be the easiest target for the units available to kill. in a perfect storm you can kill one with the right unit with enough shots. Sure you can. No one is arguing otherwise. No one. Ever. but should they? another story. My enemy isn't going to prioritize my mutilator just to make your case. lol. He'll only do it if it makes sense to him. I'll give him a lot of reasons to question it. But he still might.

The rhinos are the most obvious way but lots of others exist. Sometimes the best cover is your enemy.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

It's not hard to look at the codex and realize what units are good and which ones are not. The game isn't complicated.
.

If its so obvious then why aren't all the lists the same? Lol. No. there is an enormous variety among armies and it is that variety that forces you to think and shift and change.

The game actually is a bit complicated. Expert play is something you apparently are an expert on. How would you know what expert play is, if there was no expertise necessary for this uncomplicated game?

Food for thought. I think you are minimizing the game to make a point. That's not intellectually honest. I don't think you believe that for one minute. You've talked too much about "competitive play" to think there is no such thing and if there is, then there's complication. Enough to allow the more mentally agile to rise to the top.

I'm not going to argue more on that because the game is what it is. Within that framework, whatever you characterize it as being, the Mutilator (our subject) can be used. Can be hidden. Can have cover. Can soak too much resource for too little gain, yet can end armor and smaller units on its own. Quite useful. Not that hard to hide if that's even the goal.

it may not even be the goal. In saturation, something WILL die. So sometimes its just a red herring. The game situation is just too varied to say what will be true until the time comes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
You know, people have complained about me on here before, and not totally undeserved, I might add. But I've NEVER been that condescending before.

You have been. Believe me. I'm on the receiving end enough times to know. But I will say it has been a LOT more muted lately which I appreciate.

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Gauss is pretty inefficient against cheap vehicles. Plus,if the Crons are close enough to double tap Gauss into my Rhino, odds are they are getting a visit from the DC on my turn.

There were no Rhinos. A Stormlord. Gauss gets its moneys worth against that. Even a couple hull points here and there pays big given it comes from WARRIORS!

That aside, the StormLord took all comers. I comment on the Decurion because Akiasura thinks its a competitive thing to do. The reality is, the guy is a really good General and he had a tough list to damage. It was a good list. Surprising too. you don't see lists like his too often.

So, what was the list then?
Did he face Eldar/SM? I don't see how 9 tanks, that aren't rhinos, could survive against SM/eldar in their standard lists competitive lists at all.

It's not really me who thinks the Decurion is competitive. It's pretty much...everyone? It broke the game at release and remains the best way to run necrons.
Are you saying the Decurion isn't competitive?

 Jancoran wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

That's why I provided some, you know, math.

No. what you did was repeat what I already know and have said: it can be killed. No one said otherwise so repeating yourself as if it was a revalation is...pointless.

I think you missed the point.

My math pointed out several things that you seem to ignore;
It does not take multiple units to destroy a mutilator, as you claim. Since you keep mentioning it does, I figured this would be a big revelation to you.
It does not take a 200-300 point unit to destroy a mutilator, 100-150 point units do it just fine and are commonly taken choices as well.

And finally, on occasion (I didn't test it in many scenarios, but I imagine it'll work out in most) the enemy gets more points from firing at the mutilators than they do if they fired at basic marines.
Obviously, this makes firing at the mutilators a good choice for the enemy in many situations. Which makes them a terrible distraction unit.

 Jancoran wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

You defined a corner as the place where 2 board edges meet.

re-read the post again and then get back to me. I very specifically told you in the post that it could be either a board edge or a unit edge, so to speak. Go read it again and again until you get it.

Here is what you said, verbatim;
The geometry isn't complicated either. There is this thing called a corner. it represents the meeting point of two board edges.
Not sure what a unit edge is at all. Is it threat distance? Or something else?
I recall you mentioning forming a fence around the corner, but that still involves the enemy army sitting in a corner or near a board edge for 2-3 turns.

If you mean, somehow, getting behind the enemy's army so that when they flee combat they run into another unit...okay? I don't see why that's better than if mutilators could just catch the enemy unit themselves. The only reason to push someone over the board edge in the first place is due to marines having their special rule, and other units forming the board edge don't work the same way. I don't see mutilators being good at getting behind anyone either to form this other corner, being slow and having inaccurate deepstrike.

 Jancoran wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

Considering your whole strategy with mutilators involves target saturation, I would think how to achieve this with chaos by turn 2 is critical to their use.

It is. But its an entirely different thread for you to start. I think anyone with two cells connected by a synapse can crack open the codex and figure out how to get there in round two. Heldrakes, rhinos, Raptors, Bikes, Maulerfiends, outflanking steeds with Spawn and all kinds of fun other ideas. Whatever else you would like to bring that's fast. I don't care what you use. That's up to you and your list proclivities. I'm just telling you that if you do employ that strategy, Mutilators are a good add.

And you were doing so good with laying off the condescending tone too .
A decent amount of the options you listed aren't "there" on round 2. They are in position to charge by turn 3, which is average speed, but many of them will have just taken potshots or done nothing for the first 2 turns. The exceptions being Drakes and Bikes which, surprise surprise, are considered the best units in the codex. Maybe we have different definitions of there?
If the enemy goes first, he has 3 turns to shoot at you before you charge. That's...half the game. It's 45 marines from the scat bikes, which is most likely every marine you have on the table, to give you an idea of how bad that is.

All of those things sound a lot better than mutilators regardless, imo. They continue to be fast turn after turn, and are actual threats in CC. Many of them are difficult to remove as well, point for point when compared to mutilators.

Remember, as you like to point out, things don't exist in a vacuum, and taking mutilators is an opportunity cost.
You are giving up the chance to take 185(ish) points worth of spawn, raptors, or bikers for 3 mutilators. Is it worth it?
I'm arguing no. You're arguing yes.

 Jancoran wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

You mean, do you need to explain why one of the slowest units in the game that needs to reach melee combat to do anything at all is somehow easy to hide?
Because yeah.
You do.

Units that need to reach melee in general are hard to hide, because they must move towards the enemy and end within move+2d6 (and the closer the better, failing a charge can be death).
A unit like the mutilator, who can't even run, pretty much has to move towards the enemy every turn or risk becoming a non-factor.
See how I listed reasons why a mutilator is hard to hide?

Um... I know you're actually smarter than this so you're just trolling me. But sure, I'll bite. Mutilator drops. rhino moves in front.

So the mutilator is far back enough where the rhino can move completely infront of him to block LoS in a way that no one moving 6" can shoot? That doesn't sound like he's up in everyone's face turn 2, ready to charge.

 Jancoran wrote:

or. Mutilators drops behind cover since it cant shoot anyways.

Assuming it doesn't scatter out of cover, since it can't adjust, and the enemy can't fix it by moving a bit.
And assuming he can move through the LoS blocking cover. If he can't you just slowed him down, and he only has a few turns to reach CC before the game is over as is.
This is the only method I see as being at all likely, though it's still not great odds since your enemy has to place troops that are threatened by the mutilators close to the terrain knowing you will most likely drop there.

 Jancoran wrote:

Or, Mutilator drops BEHIND the enemy tank using that tanks girth for cover and LOS blocking.

Most armies use tanks that are out in front, being transports. Or they are fliers.
Perhaps less competitive forces use tanks as stationary firing platforms, but Tau, Necrons, Eldar, and SM do not.
Also, on my turn, I just...move the tank away? It's hard to imagine the mutilator is so placed that a 6" move won't allow something to shoot at it.

 Jancoran wrote:

Now it must (not always) turn to fire which still keeps me blocked somewhat or it can choose not to fire and make way for other units to kill me.

Right. Assuming you even get there via deepstrike and the enemy takes such a unit. I mean, stationary firing tanks are not taken any longer because drop pods make a mockery of these units.
But your meta may vary.

 Jancoran wrote:

Another way: simple cover from other units flooding forward.

Mutilators don't benefit from cover, having invul saves. It must be LoS blocking or it doesn't help them much (I suppose 4+ cover helps a bit?).

 Jancoran wrote:

Another way: target priority. It can simply not be the easiest target for the units available to kill.

True, although for the points it's a very odd unit that looks at the mutilator and doesn't think "might as well".

 Jancoran wrote:

in a perfect storm you can kill one with the right unit with enough shots. Sure you can. No one is arguing otherwise. No one. Ever.

Uh, you have. You keep mentioning multiple units and 200-300 points worth of scat bikes, despite 5 being plenty and a tactical squad getting the job done fine.
The problem is what the right unit is. If we were discussing a tactical squad, or bikes, for example, we'd have to throw 300-500 points to one round the unit unless we got very lucky. Not a lot of units like that around outside of cents.
But muties? Simple standard weapons for a tactical squad.

 Jancoran wrote:

but should they? another story. My enemy isn't going to prioritize my mutilator just to make your case. lol. He'll only do it if it makes sense to him. I'll give him a lot of reasons to question it. But he still might.

Sure, but I could flip this around just as easy.
No enemy with two brain cells connected by a synapse will deploy in such a way that allows you to hide behind one of his few tanks that must be stationary (if he even takes any) and ignore an easy to remove threat, especially when it isn't tough to remove and is still worth a decent amount of points.

 Jancoran wrote:

The rhinos are the most obvious way but lots of others exist. Sometimes the best cover is your enemy.

The rhinos bring you too far back, and most enemies can remove the mutilator pretty easy.
Honestly I think a full squad of chaos marines could just charge it if they have bolt pistols and CC weapons. It's not a tough nut to crack, like a rhino from the front is for many units. And a rhino is half the points.

 Jancoran wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

It's not hard to look at the codex and realize what units are good and which ones are not. The game isn't complicated.

If its so obvious then why aren't all the lists the same? Lol. No. there is an enormous variety among armies and it is that variety that forces you to think and shift and change.

Most lists are the same. It's been that way since 3rd, when rhino rush and SC spam existed. I had someone ask me to look at a recent tournament's eldar lists in regards to swooping hawks, and every list had the following
1 Fire dragon squad in WS
4 Scat bikes squads, 5 man squads each
1 WK
1 Farseer
1 warp spider squad
The rest being flavored the same, although half had hawks and the other half had WG.
The tournament was about 1/4 eldar too.

It's why we can say things like "Mechdar" and most people instantly know 1500 out of 1850 points, or FMC spam and most people have a good idea what the list looks like for nids.
It's why when you did claim that you had faced mechdar in 6th and had a battle report, people were dismissive. It didn't fit the definition of mechdar.

 Jancoran wrote:

The game actually is a bit complicated. Expert play is something you apparently are an expert on. How would you know what expert play is, if there was no expertise necessary for this uncomplicated game?

Expert play involves knowing all the rules for your and every enemies' codex/formation. 40k is big on gotcha moments, because there is so much out there right now. For example, knowing how the murder sword interacts with the WK so you don't charge it and lose your really expensive HQ without any hope of killing the WK.

Expert play involves knowing, off hand, probabilities. For example, knowing that an IG squad armed with 4 lascannons that are currently re-rolling to hit and are firing at BS 3 on snap shots is not the best target for your GMC with 2 wounds left to charge.

Expert play involves knowing how to properly deploy your army to minimize damage but maximize damage. For example, knowing that the only real anti-tank that your WS has to be afraid of is a single use large blast weapon that ignores cover, so you deploy each wave serpent far away, since in 6th edition WS were fast and had absurd range anyway, and the enemy carrying the weapon isn't too challenging to remove if you make it a goal.

Expert play involves knowing target priority. For example, if I am presented with a choice of a dirge caster rhino or raptors to fire at, I fire at the raptors.

Expert play involves list building. For example, knowing that you'd be better off with another drake, bike squad, raptor squad, or spawn instead of 3 mutilators.

That's the basics.

But the game itself isn't overly complicated, there aren't new and exciting changes arriving 2-3 years after something was released unless an edition change happens.

Take a look at WMH. Denny's recent tier list, body and soul, was out for 2 years before people saw it start becoming a thing in the tournament scene. It didn't seem to be very good, until someone put the pieces together and ran it, and then it was running around destroying everything.
Or H3's ability to run trenchers and form a smoke wall (a unit that has been collecting dust for years now).
There are many examples like that in WMH because it is an incredibly complicated game in terms of unit interactions. 40k has re-rolls and stuff like invisibility or ignores cover, not a whole lot of units interact with each other outside of killing.

 Jancoran wrote:

Food for thought. I think you are minimizing the game to make a point. That's not intellectually honest. I don't think you believe that for one minute. You've talked too much about "competitive play" to think there is no such thing and if there is, then there's complication. Enough to allow the more mentally agile to rise to the top.

I don't think 40k is a game where the mentally agile rise to the top. I think it's a game where the wealthy and those with time on their hands rise to the top. And those with internet access.
It certainly isn't a game that you would master after 1 game, there are too many rules for that, but it isn't a game that requires constant practice either like WMH.

 Jancoran wrote:

I'm not going to argue more on that because the game is what it is. Within that framework, whatever you characterize it as being, the Mutilator (our subject) can be used. Can be hidden. Can have cover. Can soak too much resource for too little gain, yet can end armor and smaller units on its own. Quite useful. Not that hard to hide if that's even the goal.

Sure, if you compare 200 points of mutilators to 200 points of nothing, it looks good.
If you compare it to 200 points of other, better, choices from the same dex...? Not really.
Opportunity costs my friend.

 Jancoran wrote:

it may not even be the goal. In saturation, something WILL die. So sometimes its just a red herring. The game situation is just too varied to say what will be true until the time comes.

True, but the goal of saturation is to make sure enough survives. So you want units that will do damage, or take a lot of damage in that situation. Your raptors, for example, are great at this. They are fast, just tough enough to be hard to remove (remember, tacticals do less damage to raptors, point for point, compared to mutilators). Bikers are another amazing unit.
Which is why you see them taken and not...warp talons, for example.

 Jancoran wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
You know, people have complained about me on here before, and not totally undeserved, I might add. But I've NEVER been that condescending before.

You have been. Believe me. I'm on the receiving end enough times to know. But I will say it has been a LOT more muted lately which I appreciate.

I'd appreciate it if you calmed it down as well. You're not as the bad as the guy who suggested all other players were flies though

I've never called someone precious. But whatever.

Nothing but pages of Jancoran defending Mutilators as good and players simply need to L2P. What a good day

Side note, seriously. Mutilators only work wonders against newbies and the clinically brain dead. Even Guardsmen would make short work of Mutilators.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Nothing but pages of Jancoran defending Mutilators as good and players simply need to L2P. What a good day

Side note, seriously. Mutilators only work wonders against newbies and the clinically brain dead. Even Guardsmen would make short work of Mutilators.

Admittedly they can be a massively fun modeling project though!

Experiment 626 wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Nothing but pages of Jancoran defending Mutilators as good and players simply need to L2P. What a good day

Side note, seriously. Mutilators only work wonders against newbies and the clinically brain dead. Even Guardsmen would make short work of Mutilators.

Admittedly they can be a massively fun modeling project though!

That's not the discussion at hand though. LOTS of things make for fun modeling projects, and saying that you shouldn't take tournament areas to look at units means there's never any point for discussion.

Akiasura wrote:

So, what was the list then?

Not Chaos. Who cares? You saying a Stormlord is bad is kinda what I expect: "oh he took X? Yeah X sucks and his opponents suck". Lol. Okay man. If you say so.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

Are you saying the Decurion isn't competitive?

Oh it competes. It just has a big problem against Obsec lists. Despite its power, my Militarum Tempestus keep beating a Decurion because he simply cannot kill us all before we can get to his objectives. And he cant contest them. So its game over. Reserve a lot. Zoom around a lot. Shoot only his token CAD stuff. Plant on objectives and win. Between ITC rules and the built in down side, you almost always need to include a CAD. CAD's naturally take away from the third formation you'd rather take. so it's... not as broken as some thought it would be. its good though and does compete.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

I think you missed the point.

Not only did I not, but I even engaged abd agreed with the Centurion example. its ridiculous to suggst the rest of the unit didnt get bought right along with that centurion butit int untrue that it could splitfire. So yeah. There are a couple things that might gank it somewhat less expensively. So no. No one :missed" anything here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

the enemy gets more points from firing at the mutilators than they do if they fired at basic marines. Obviously, this makes firing at the mutilators a good choice for the enemy in many situations. Which makes them a terrible distraction unit.

What basic Marines? I didnt mention any as potential targets. But sure. If we WERE comparing it to those...
I guess what I would say to that is: thats a tactical consideration you'll have to make. I personally dont push Marines upfield in the Rhinos most times, so it wont come up for me. But a General has to do what his list is designed to do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:


Not sure what a unit edge is at all. :

You intentionally didnt quote the rest of it. Bad form.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

A decent amount of the options you listed aren't "there" on round 2. :

Yup. So if you plan to build YOUR army around speed...use them. If you don't, that's cool too. The rest of this post is you minimizing. Which isnt an argument. So I clipped it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:


Remember, as you like to point out, things don't exist in a vacuum, and taking mutilators is an opportunity cost.
You are giving up the chance to take 185(ish) points worth of spawn, raptors, or bikers for 3 mutilators. Is it worth it?
I'm arguing no. You're arguing yes.
:

No. I am not arguing that you shouldn't take Spawn. I didn't say that. Ever. So kindly take your words from my mouth.

You're shifting the goal post here. For starters, i already used all three fast attack choices. So it not RELEVANT whether spawn are cooler. Spawn werent coolr than what I took for Fast Attacks. So there you go. If someone has a list that doesn't use all the fast slots, then sure, grab some Spawn. So you're talking apples to oranges here and that is bad form.

COMPARATIVE statements like this are not what are being offered to you. A way to USE Mutilators. that is what I offered. Comparisons only matter if its slot v slot. But it isnt in this case and Ive told you REPEATEDLY that the fact its an elite is one of its strong points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

So the mutilator is far back enough where the rhino can move completely infront of him to block LoS in a way that no one moving 6" can shoot? That doesn't sound like he's up in everyone's face turn 2, ready to charge.

Huh? it deep strikes. the rhino (which is offered as one of many examples) is at the 30" mark round 1. By round two it is EASILY in range to block for anything it wants. It can also flat out after the Deep Strike so if you're off a bit, you can compensate. but dont fixate on this. My objection to you is that you play obtuse just like you're doing here. "Huh. What? how can a rhino get that far upfield". Are you kidding? you know full well that it can. Why are you even asking? It's a waste of time.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:


Most lists are the same.

Repeating yourself with an example where you saw similar lists? um... okay.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:


True, although for the points it's a very odd unit that looks at the mutilator and doesn't think "might as well".

Not when faced with a competing priority. Which is pretty much in almost every game. Kinda wonder what those Marines are thinking about those Raptors? Even if the Raptors stand the three units of Marines up that tried to shoot everything up, they'll never move again. Thats bad. Which is why you might NOT just say "might as well". But thats the kind of confusion or tarket priority problem that the saturation approach hopes to gain.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:
Nothing but pages of Jancoran defending Mutilators as good and players simply need to L2P. What a good day

Side note, seriously. Mutilators only work wonders against newbies and the clinically brain dead. Even Guardsmen would make short work of Mutilators.

Admittedly they can be a massively fun modeling project though!

That's not the discussion at hand though. LOTS of things make for fun modeling projects, and saying that you shouldn't take tournament areas to look at units means there's never any point for discussion.

I was being a bit tongue in cheek.

A fun modeling project pretty much IS the one and only spot where Mutilators come out on top!

even in a purely 'for gaks and giggles' list, playing against an equally super fluff bunny list, I'd expect nothing from a solo or paired Mutilators beside staring across the board menacingly and shaking their fists in a useless & horribly non-threatening gesture!

Akiasura wrote:

I mean, stationary firing tanks are not taken any longer because drop pods make a mockery of these units.

How interesting. You have no stationary tanks in your "meta"? Lol. Like the pods care whether you moved or not? You think being "not stationary" makes you harder to hit? Whats a stationary tank, one with more than one weapon or just one tread? That's just my "meta" that has those tanks? Yikes man. That is an absurd statement. Really.

The Mutilators are bad becaaaaaaaause... your more advanced meta has no stationary tanks for it to victimize?

Thats what you're going with? Hokay.