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 Jancoran wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

So, what was the list then?

Not Chaos. Who cares? You saying a Stormlord is bad is kinda what I expect: "oh he took X? Yeah X sucks and his opponents suck". Lol. Okay man. If you say so.

I just asked what the list was and if it faced SM/Eldar, but alright.

 Jancoran wrote:

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Akiasura wrote:

Are you saying the Decurion isn't competitive?

Oh it competes. It just has a big problem against Obsec lists. Despite its power, my Militarum Tempestus keep beating a Decurion because he simply cannot kill us all before we can get to his objectives. And he cant contest them. So its game over. Reserve a lot. Zoom around a lot. Shoot only his token CAD stuff. Plant on objectives and win. Between ITC rules and the built in down side, you almost always need to include a CAD. CAD's naturally take away from the third formation you'd rather take. so it's... not as broken as some thought it would be. its good though and does compete.

Interesting, do you have any battle reports that illustrate this?

 Jancoran wrote:

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Akiasura wrote:

I think you missed the point.

Not only did I not, but I even engaged abd agreed with the Centurion example. its ridiculous to suggst the rest of the unit didnt get bought right along with that centurion butit int untrue that it could splitfire. So yeah. There are a couple things that might gank it somewhat less expensively. So no. No one :missed" anything here.

And you missed it again, so I'm going to lay it out.
The point is twofold;
1) It's not a few units that can one round the mutilator and earn a 1/3 of their points back in a single round, it's quite a few, and a lot of the commonly seen ones in a competitive scene.

2) The enemy earns more points firing at the mutilator then they earn firing at marines making it a very bad distraction unit.

I'm not even mentioning centurions. I'm mentioning avengers, scat bikers, tactical squads, bikers (though the latter need PGs or grav, but those are easily the most common weapons).

 Jancoran wrote:

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Akiasura wrote:

the enemy gets more points from firing at the mutilators than they do if they fired at basic marines. Obviously, this makes firing at the mutilators a good choice for the enemy in many situations. Which makes them a terrible distraction unit.

What basic Marines? I didnt mention any as potential targets. But sure. If we WERE comparing it to those...
I guess what I would say to that is: thats a tactical consideration you'll have to make. I personally dont push Marines upfield in the Rhinos most times, so it wont come up for me. But a General has to do what his list is designed to do.

I compared them to a generic target, basic marines. They are weaker, toughness wise, then basic marines against commonly seen targets, because their W/armor save to point cost ratio isn't good enough, which is very common in the 2+ save units. They are usually twice as durable against small arms, less than that against heavier weapons, but for some reason cost 3x as much.
What targets are the mutilators better targets then that are commonly seen in chaos lists (as in, not rubrics). Raptors? It's most likely equal. Spawn? Probably more effective to fire at the mutilators, as is the case with the bikes.

 Jancoran wrote:

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Akiasura wrote:


Not sure what a unit edge is at all. :

You intentionally didnt quote the rest of it. Bad form.

You never said unit edge.
And considering you constantly cut mine off....
I quoted the relevant parts, and then asked what use making a corner out of units would be, and why you would do that for mutilators of all things.

 Jancoran wrote:

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Akiasura wrote:

A decent amount of the options you listed aren't "there" on round 2. :

Yup. So if you plan to build YOUR army around speed...use them. If you don't, that's cool too. The rest of this post is you minimizing. Which isnt an argument. So I clipped it.

Uh, it's not minimizing at all, you claimed the chaos army can threaten and be in your face by turn 2, and then listed a ton of units that can do so. For the most part, it can not. The majority of the army is turn 3, unless you want to talk an all biker/drake army.
1 turn in a game that typically goes for about 5-7 before a winner is decided is a big deal. Especially for an army like chaos, that typically must be close to do any major damage at all. 11 unit target saturation means very little is doing damage on the way in, if all of the units are viable threats and not things like, say, rhinos.

 Jancoran wrote:

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Akiasura wrote:


Remember, as you like to point out, things don't exist in a vacuum, and taking mutilators is an opportunity cost.
You are giving up the chance to take 185(ish) points worth of spawn, raptors, or bikers for 3 mutilators. Is it worth it?
I'm arguing no. You're arguing yes.
:

No. I am not arguing that you shouldn't take Spawn. I didn't say that. Ever. So kindly take your words from my mouth.

Again, you are missing the point.
You keep saying your opponent has to shoot something, and it might as well be the mutilators. You're ignoring that instead of taking the mutilators, you could have taken a more effective threatening squad.
If you are taking mutilators, you are taking one less biker, raptor, havok, marine squad, plague marine, or something. 3 of them are about as much as a standard unit.

 Jancoran wrote:

You're shifting the goal post here. For starters, i already used all three fast attack choices. So it not RELEVANT whether spawn are cooler. Spawn werent coolr than what I took for Fast Attacks. So there you go. If someone has a list that doesn't use all the fast slots, then sure, grab some Spawn. So you're talking apples to oranges here and that is bad form.

Uh, what?
Look, everything in the game costs points. 3 Muties with MoN cost 185.
So you compare them to other units in the 160-200 pt range and see if they are anywhere near as strong. And with few exceptions...they aren't. You'd be better off taking another choice from a few slots, including a termie suicide squad.
It's not shifting the goal posts at all. Every unit is looked at for its point cost and what else you could get for the points. That's...how point costs work.

 Jancoran wrote:

COMPARATIVE statements like this are not what are being offered to you. A way to USE Mutilators. that is what I offered. Comparisons only matter if its slot v slot. But it isnt in this case and Ive told you REPEATEDLY that the fact its an elite is one of its strong points.

I know this is going to sound crazy, but people can bring up relevant facts if they pertain to the discussion at hand, without you having to be the one to introduce them

The fact it's an elite slot is nice, but not crazy good. Maybe if you are filling out your force organization chart and can't fit another CAD or Force Org chart, but that's not exactly a common issue nowadays. So, you compare between points.
I mean...we don't say scat bikes are good simply because they beat out other troops (and being a good troop choice carriers more benefits than being a good elite), we say they are good because they compare favorably to every unit in the dex in some way. If they didn't, you'd see two min squads of guardians or bikes and everyone would walk away.

I could nearly buy 2 termies for the cost of a mutilator, and at least get some gun fire when they land after all, but unless you are filling out your HS, FA, Troops, and HQ, there are other options.

 Jancoran wrote:

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Akiasura wrote:

So the mutilator is far back enough where the rhino can move completely infront of him to block LoS in a way that no one moving 6" can shoot? That doesn't sound like he's up in everyone's face turn 2, ready to charge.

Huh? it deep strikes. the rhino (which is offered as one of many examples) is at the 30" mark round 1. By round two it is EASILY in range to block for anything it wants. It can also flat out after the Deep Strike so if you're off a bit, you can compensate. but dont fixate on this. My objection to you is that you play obtuse just like you're doing here. "Huh. What? how can a rhino get that far upfield". Are you kidding? you know full well that it can. Why are you even asking? It's a waste of time.

The rhino needs to be in front of the mutilator, who ideally is 6"+2d6 away from the enemy. Hopefully closer, since it's so slow and the enemy has a turn to move away, ensuring it'll never catch them.
So you need to place the entire rhino in such a way that it is between the mutilator and the enemy unit, and it's hopefully at point blank range, but the mutilator can still charge. It just seems unlikely to me that this will happen without the entire thing falling apart, but I'll bow to your expertise.

More importantly, though, if you are using your rhino to block the mutilator, it's not blocking your more important units...like the raptors.
But hey, maybe that's all part of the cunning plan.

 Jancoran wrote:

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Akiasura wrote:


Most lists are the same.

Repeating yourself with an example where you saw similar lists? um... okay.

Uh yes?
I know this may sound crazy, but people sometimes include examples to illustrate their points.
Obama's america is crazy I know.

 Jancoran wrote:

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Akiasura wrote:


True, although for the points it's a very odd unit that looks at the mutilator and doesn't think "might as well".

Not when faced with a competing priority. Which is pretty much in almost every game. Kinda wonder what those Marines are thinking about those Raptors? Even if the Raptors stand the three units of Marines up that tried to shoot everything up, they'll never move again. Thats bad. Which is why you might NOT just say "might as well". But thats the kind of confusion or tarket priority problem that the saturation approach hopes to gain.

I mean against raptors and mutilators I'd probably just charge the raptors. If they aren't in charge range, I walk backwards away from the mutilator and take potshots at the raptors...maybe the muties if I get rapid fire.


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 Jancoran wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

I mean, stationary firing tanks are not taken any longer because drop pods make a mockery of these units.

How interesting. You have no stationary tanks in your "meta"? Lol. Like the pods care whether you moved or not? You think being "not stationary" makes you harder to hit? Whats a stationary tank, one with more than one weapon or just one tread? That's just my "meta" that has those tanks? Yikes man. That is an absurd statement. Really.

The Mutilators are bad becaaaaaaaause... your more advanced meta has no stationary tanks for it to victimize?

Thats what you're going with? Hokay.

Uh, yes?
You haven't listed any other unit the mutilator is effective against, since everything else is enough to walk away from.
Not sure what your pods statement is in reference of. Do you think attacking pods is a good use of the mutilator? I can see that actually.

The only thing mutilators are competitive in is a contest for worst unit.

I call BS on the Militarum Tempestus story. NO Necron list is going to have issue killing T3 4+ and expensive vehicles like the Taurox. Trying to capture objectives will only get you so far, hence why you see a majority of competitive Necron lists use Decurion, even in the house-ruled ITC format you JUST listed.

David Koska apparently did pretty well with a Tempestus CAD at Adepticon, some people can get good mileage out of units you wouldn't expect.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
I was lazy one day and decided to mimic Nayden's Lictorshame list using Chaoscrons. Solo Mutilators, solo Obliterators, solo Heavy Destroyers, some cultist Chaff and a pair of Nightscythes. The troop part was weak (Cultists serving as Sorcerer bodyguards) but the results were better than expected overall. Having 14-something multiwound T5 solos at 1850 points as well as 2 units of msu flayed ones went a long way. Anti-invisibility remains the main bugbear of course.

I'd love to have seen this game. Stronger units are nice but throwing a curveball at people can have value of it's own, just because they haven't dealt with the strategy before.

Yoyoyo wrote:
David Koska apparently did pretty well with a Tempestus CAD at Adepticon, some people can get good mileage out of units you wouldn't expect.

Well, it was Scions with GK's and a Knight detachment,and placed 42nd. It's not awful, but it wasn't enough to get anywhere near the Finals and had a lot more to it than just Scions.

Sounds like an a pretty cool army though in concept for some sort of Inquisitorial force.

Definitely.

40k is strategy versus strategy, and that's not always a simple reduction of the individual units.

There might be better units for a MSU saturation strategy than Mutilators, but that's different than "Mutilators suck".

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I call BS on the Militarum Tempestus story. NO Necron list is going to have issue killing T3 4+ and expensive vehicles like the Taurox. Trying to capture objectives will only get you so far, hence why you see a majority of competitive Necron lists use Decurion, even in the house-ruled ITC format you JUST listed.

You call BS on everything so... why should today be any different. Lol.


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Yoyoyo wrote:
David Koska apparently did pretty well with a Tempestus CAD at Adepticon, some people can get good mileage out of units you wouldn't expect.
.

Tis true. Skill happens.

Based off the fact you say lies on your blog and won't admit it, I have every right to.

Until you go back and edit that old Battle Report to be accurate, I will find it incredibly hard to take you seriously.

Also, math > skill. That's how it works.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Based off the fact you say lies on your blog and won't admit it, I have every right to.

Until you go back and edit that old Battle Report to be accurate, I will find it incredibly hard to take you seriously.

Also, math > skill. That's how it works.

I "say lies" do I?

What Battle report. What in the world are you talking about?

Math is skill?

Must be New Years Day.

3 Wave Serpents is NOT Mechdar. Three Wave Serpents total in a 2000 point game isn't "feared for a reason". 5-7 of them are feared for a reason. People comfortably fit in 5 at 1850 levels with other units to finish things that might've been difficult otherwise (like Wraithguard and Wraithknights for example).

The Battle Report was inaccurate from that point on, and yet you or one of your very few cohorts would present that as an example of Mutilators doing well? When your opponent sucks, even Pyrovores won't be terrible.

Though I'm sure you've made them acceptable and we're just "sheeple".

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
3 Wave Serpents is NOT Mechdar. Three Wave Serpents total in a 2000 point game isn't "feared for a reason". 5-7 of them are feared for a reason. People comfortably fit in 5 at 1850 levels with other units to finish things that might've been difficult otherwise (like Wraithguard and Wraithknights for example).

The Battle Report was inaccurate from that point on, and yet you or one of your very few cohorts would present that as an example of Mutilators doing well? When your opponent sucks, even Pyrovores won't be terrible.

Though I'm sure you've made them acceptable and we're just "sheeple".

I was drinking diet pepsi when I read that. Result? I literally had to go replace my keyboard just now. It literally does not work anymore. Old ass thing had half the letters worn off anyways but it's definitely headed to the junkyard now.

EDIT: Woah, thought there was only 1 page to this thread. Never mind me

Now we know why CSM don't have drop pods. It is the one thing mutilators are able to half reliably kill, and whenever they see one they turn it in to scrap.

I like to read this thread while imagining Jancoran and Akiasura wearing trilby hats, illuminated by their computer screens, furiously typing away in a darkened room.

Typing explictly with their fists slamming onto a keyboard.

 koooaei wrote:
Typing explictly with their fists slamming onto a keyboard.

A new keyboard. My old one is ruined with Diet Pepsi all over it.

Well, when the Raman machine is on I do have the lights off...

RULE #1 EVERYONE.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Based off the fact you say lies on your blog and won't admit it, I have every right to.

Until you go back and edit that old Battle Report to be accurate, I will find it incredibly hard to take you seriously.

Also, math > skill. That's how it works.

Math Beats skill eh maybe for a cheesy game ruining min maxer like you however i can bet you i could take my fluffy death guard list vs you and play it the same way i played my dark elves in fantasy and wipe the floor with you. The fact you call both mutilators and warp talons useless shows how "great " you are skill wise

If that same skilled person were using good units, they'd win even more, right? Skill and mathematical analysis are complimentary, not in opposition.

Like any game, you can be the best general/coach in the world, if the pieces/players you bring to the game are not good then you are going to have a hard time. The Chaos book is already on the weak end, and that's assuming your using units contained in it that are not bad.

Talons and mutalators are weak options due to poor rules for themselves and the way 7th edition is generally.

Just play a game against each other.

LOL, BA aren't much of a test.

Martel732 wrote:
If that same skilled person were using good units, they'd win even more, right? Skill and mathematical analysis are complimentary, not in opposition.

While it may be true that some players using good lists are also good... You'll never know it. When a Good General takes a "bad list" and wins, then you know he's good. Unfortunately he has simultaneously proven you wrong about the unit. Because he's nopw shown you how to use it correctly and that some or possibly most of your fears about them were unfounded.

So ironic.


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 koooaei wrote:
Just play a game against each other.

I've extended the offer to more than one online persona. I'm fine with that test. It's the same test I already take every week anyways. What's one more, right?

If they can beat me in 4 of the six missions, they might have something. Trouble is, getting six games in to adequately test the matchup.

No that general hasn't. He's just won in spite of poor unit selection. Mathematics doesn't lie. It can be overcome, however. That same general's magnitude of victory would be higher with better units. Just because I win some games with ba or whatever doesn't make them not statistically inferior.

My take from your example is that you are a very good general who beat a bad opponent with a terrible unit. That doesn't make mutilators good. It means you are good enough to beat some opponents with bad units.

 Jancoran wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I call BS on the Militarum Tempestus story. NO Necron list is going to have issue killing T3 4+ and expensive vehicles like the Taurox. Trying to capture objectives will only get you so far, hence why you see a majority of competitive Necron lists use Decurion, even in the house-ruled ITC format you JUST listed.

You call BS on everything so... why should today be any different. Lol.


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Yoyoyo wrote:
David Koska apparently did pretty well with a Tempestus CAD at Adepticon, some people can get good mileage out of units you wouldn't expect.
.

Tis true. Skill happens

.

Except CSM. CSM cant get skill. They just get stomped.

Martel732 wrote:
No that general hasn't. He's just won in spite of poor unit selection. Mathematics doesn't lie. It can be overcome, however. That same general's magnitude of victory would be higher with better units. Just because I win some games with ba or whatever doesn't make them not statistically inferior.

My take from your example is that you are a very good general who beat a bad opponent with a terrible unit. That doesn't make mutilators good. It means you are good enough to beat some opponents with bad units.

Mathematics doesn't lie? Lol.

You know in my business, we have a saying: Figures don't lie but liers can figure. Meaning that numbers can be made to support a lot of things that aren't true, especially when they lack context.

In any event, that all ignores the fact that you selectively accept the math that sounds good... while ignoring the math that means something: wins. You can't steal my wins with any amount of figuring. When you can, we'll chat again. Until then I think you would be better served learning than poo pooing.

Also: If you think I care whether the score is 26-3 or 26-9 this weekend when the Seahawks take on the Vikings, you're mistaken. I won't care.

In my effort to bring a Typhon, 2x Sicarian, and a Fire Raptor... I've been "eyeing" that Forgeworld Purge Detachment and use Nurgle Mutilators as backline distruptions.

I'll let ya'll know what I think.

There are too many variables when determining if a unit is bad or not. Is the general good and the opponent bad? What army is the opponent using? What's the scenario? Etc etc.

It seems that math is a good way to get a good overall look at how a unit is. All math points to the mutilator being bad.

Also, overall opinion by a large majority of players say that Mutilators are bad.

It seems the burden of proof is the side that says they're good because it goes against precedent and maths.

Also for the record I would entirely go onto Vassal to prove a point but I don't have a computer that does much outside browse the Internet and occasionally write up papers.

I plan on getting a well deserved upgrade but I'm surprised nobody else has actually taken up the offer. Plausible nobody knows what Vassal is.