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We sort of established that 9 pages ago, but something about batreps generated another 9 pages of finger pointing.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
We sort of established that 9 pages ago, but something about batreps generated another 9 pages of finger pointing.

I know, I just wanted to offer my opinion on the matter. I apologize that it wasn't that insightful, but I just wanted to pop in.

 War Kitten wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
We sort of established that 9 pages ago, but something about batreps generated another 9 pages of finger pointing.

I know, I just wanted to offer my opinion on the matter. I apologize that it wasn't that insightful, but I just wanted to pop in.

I know but I felt like some sass, if only to get the point across to others that this issue still hasn't been acknowledged.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
We sort of established that 9 pages ago, but something about batreps generated another 9 pages of finger pointing.

I know, I just wanted to offer my opinion on the matter. I apologize that it wasn't that insightful, but I just wanted to pop in.

I know but I felt like some sass, if only to get the point across to others that this issue still hasn't been acknowledged.

It has, actually, been acknowledged by all parties as one of the Mutilatorss' greatest weaknesses. Which is why people aren't saying "start the game with Mutilators there to cover your Warlord" or "Deepstrike them in next to some Jetbikes", it's being argued that they complement target saturation and make good Linebreakers, make the enemy have to choose between being forced to snap shot at prioirty targets or eat the charge and squeeze off a round of shooting before being destroyed.

 dusara217 wrote:
It has, actually, been acknowledged by all parties as one of the Mutilatorss' greatest weaknesses. Which is why people aren't saying "start the game with Mutilators there to cover your Warlord" or "Deepstrike them in next to some Jetbikes", it's being argued that they complement target saturation and make good Linebreakers, make the enemy have to choose between being forced to snap shot at prioirty targets or eat the charge and squeeze off a round of shooting before being destroyed.

It's more like "that's all they can do". Any unit can "Compliment Target Saturation" especially if it's more copies of the same unit (it's a much more terrifying prospect to choose between three Obliterators than two obliterators and a mutilator), while faster units or squads that have both DS and larger unit counts would be better linebreakers (I did list that in most cases, a single Obliterator would be better at the same linebreaker job for a scant few more points since it will get off one round of shooting before reverting to the same issue as the Mutilator). Generally, I've only seem people successfully argue that, when you have nothing else to purchase, Muties would be good for gap filling.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

Has the scenario ever come up where you took Mutilators before you ran out of slots or points (and not just for a fluff army or a challenge army, those would be entirely different arguments)?

I never use Mutilators, because the points are tight enough that I can rarely afford the stuff I need already. In the above example, if I had about 180 points and totally filled up with HQ, I would see if I can divide up my list enough to make room for another Chaos Sorceror in another CAD.

To do that you'd have to add more Marines tax, and I explained my reticense on that: no saturation value and minimal contribution other than obsec which i already have six of. They don't do more for you.

A singular Sorcerer WAS in my list for quite a whle but it failed to do enough pretty much all the time and was my default Warlord simply because my other one was i nthe thick of things all the time. I switched it out for a Chaos Lord on the wing and much happier with the results, as now he is still in the thick of things but he does more for my Raptors (Fearless is a very big deal when you invest in that many)

But thats not the subject.

As for taking them when I didn't have to? I would. In this case I took them because they were sort of the obvious choice given the list. However, they act like extremely flexible and tough Paladins in a group. A Sorcerer might actually be a great idea for them when grouped like that.


183 points of Nurgle Mutilators in a unit does 5 wounds to anything reliably and possibly more depending on who iut is they are smashing. Clearly they would always be aimed at high value targets.

Closest Terminator Equivalent: 201pts gets you 4 Nurgle Terminators with Chainfists. They kill the same amount essentially and are far less capable of keeping up their damage output and cannot take as many wounds. they shoot a little which adds to their utility, for as long as they are still alive.

Nothing else really kills harder targets or those of high value like either one of them can, for the same points. Nothing. Any unit that can reliably kill off five wounds of ANY type they wish are essentially non existent. Now there are some better at killing hordes/Mid range stuff (basically every fast attack Chaos has are great at it), some slightly better at killing MEQ (Warp Talons, Heldrakes and the heavy support slots I suppose, though the Defiler is probably he best of the Heavy Support at it, unfortunately)

So if you're looking for an answer to hard to kill things, the Mutilators really are one of the Chaos Codex's better choices. One hopes Helbrutes and Maulerfiends will be treated better in the new codex (and one can guarantee the Helbrutes and maulerfiends will be) but at this time, that's the reality.

When you gain perspective on the Codex, you kind of see why Mutilators, while not exactly as cool as the opponents similar answers in some armies, is really pretty good in the context of the current Chaos reality. We can live in the land of "should" all we want, but it doesn't bend reality to our will. They actually are a good option for some things in a Chaos list.

Do you need them to win? Nope. Will they be somehow the reason you lost? gimme a break.






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 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

(it's a much more terrifying prospect to choose between three Obliterators than two obliterators and a mutilator),

And I took both. Win.

Why do all four Terminators need Chainfists though? Why not just spend on Combi-Melta and then 1-2 Chainfists, seeing as most vehicles are going to die from that anyway? Then there's the matter of Power Fists usually handling the situation just fine outside of AV14?

If you overspend where unnecessary, of course it is going to look bad.

You could do 5 terminators with Combi weapons. I believe that's roughly the same points as the mutilators, though you can't fit them into 3 different slots (you'd probably have to get a 6th and get two squads, so still less units than the 3 mutilators).

Combi Pgs are 10 Pg shots at rapid fire range and 15 PF attack off the charge (not that they'll ever charge, but if we are going to assume the mutilators reach combat lets assume the same for the termies). Similar CC to 3 mutilators except against the heaviest of targets, and much better ranged attacks and overall damae output.

Possibly a trade involving chain fists for combis. I don't know the points for chain fists off hand, I've never seen them taken tbh, so most likely the combis are better.

I wouldn't mark termies for nurgle. Keep them cheap.

The termies are weaker attrition (1 less wound, lower toughness) for a similar CC profile but a much improved ranged option. I'd give the advantage to the termies, but if the enemy lacks AP or grav weapons, the mutilators wouldn't be that much worse.

Martel732 wrote:
I still think, however, that's it's very much a case of a good player winning with a poor unit.

Alternatively, look at it this way. Some units are more difficult to use than others, and some armies have a greater degree of interdependency.

That's not necessarily to say a unit is objectively "bad". But it may be more difficult to employ effectively. Jancoran is effectively boxing in his opponents with multiple threats and getting excellent results. War Kitten is just zooming away from his opponent, who's Mutilators don't perform.

Difficulty of use definitely influences the perception of a unit. I've seem Lictors referred to as "beyond terrible" on dakka, pre-LVO. So I think it's important to keep that reality in mind, when people might attempt to pass off subjective judgements as objective truth.

Kharn is 165 points I think and he can actually blow up an Imperial Knight in one round of combat when he charges (I actually did the math hammer on this one. This is due to him having an absurd number of attacks and mainly Gorechild's special rules). And he not only comes cheaper, but can be used to fulfill another CAD's "HQ Tax", isn't slowed my Slow and Purposeful, and not only can reliably blow up vehicles, but also work against T6 Monstrous Creatures and even medium sized squads. The only flaws with Kharn compared to Muties is that he is not immune to AP3 weaponry (which Muties are) and can't get T5. He is also technically slowed by infantry level movement and can't hit flyers (well, actually he can, but it's not gonna be very effective with a single plasma pistol shot) but those are problems shared by the Muties too. Oh and Kharn can sweep the crap out of units, since he's bound to win most combats he's in (the only ones I say he would lose is if he went up against stuff with 3++).

Also the Nurgle Terminator example highlights another flaw of the Mutilators: You are paying for all of those weapons. In a Terminator unit, you can spare some points by just buying one or two chainfists, as against vehicles a whole unit of them are just overkill. That's part of the reason why Warp Talons are bad too; you are paying for every model's lightning claws when realistically you'll probably lose 2-3 of them before they ever get close enough to do some damage.

This is another fallacy in that, yes, Mutilators are good when you compare them to another unit kitted as close as possible to the mutilator's stats.But this again ignores the fact that some units can do the same job better for less points with different equipment. You're effectively shaping the question to suit the answer, rather than ask the question to get an answer.

if you want an example of a unit that can compete with the muties differently, then take a unit of Plague Marines in a Rhino with Plasma Guns. This unit has superior mobility to both Kharn and the Muties, can reliably threaten vehicles that would just outrun both, can quickly redeploy to threaten other units, will not be bogged down in combat, and while can't provide the same amount of wounds in one turn, can provide consistent damage every turn due to having a ranged weapon and not being forced to swap weapons every turn. The Mutie's wound output starts faltering if it's forced to use a suboptimal weapon or isn't in combat, so overall this unit would provide more bang for the buck. The better part is, with a Nurgle Lord, this unit can also fulfill the "troop tax" that Muties can't and can gain objective secured. Plop them on an Objective and they can literally do absolutely nothing else for the duration of the game and still be a benefit to your army. But a squad of 3 Muties that end up too far away from anything else (remember, they can't sweep)? dead weight until they can somehow get back to the fight. And literally every other model in the game can out-walk them.

Now, this is why I said (several pages ago) that if you just removed the squad cap of 3 and their Slow and Purposeful, these would actually be good, if not terrifying, cuz 5-10 of these might be expensive, but they will tear and shred their way through everything, regardless of which weapon they use. Since they don't have weapons, they would basically be running every turn they can't be charging, which means that gunline armies would have to choose between stand and shoot or high tail it out of there. With slow and purposeful, the choice for them is very clear: just backpedal and shoot.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why do all four Terminators need Chainfists though? W.

They don't. But to have the same ability as a Mutilator (in fairness) I include it for the comparison.

 Jancoran wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why do all four Terminators need Chainfists though? W.

They don't. But to have the same ability as a Mutilator (in fairness) I include it for the comparison.

So you intentionally made a unit overspend on points on things they don't need, then point out that they're overcosted compared to Mutilators in a very specific scenario that favors the Mutilators over the Terminators (dealing 5 wounds in close combat, when Chaos Terminators are better used as gun platforms)?

I hope I'm not the only one that sees the contradiction here.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why do all four Terminators need Chainfists though? W.

They don't. But to have the same ability as a Mutilator (in fairness) I include it for the comparison.

So you intentionally made a unit overspend on points on things they don't need, t.

Nope. That's not what I did.

 Jancoran wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why do all four Terminators need Chainfists though? W.

They don't. But to have the same ability as a Mutilator (in fairness) I include it for the comparison.

So you intentionally made a unit overspend on points on things they don't need, t.

Nope. That's not what I did.

You can at least quote me in full.

I think we can do better. If you really want to see which unit outperforms the other, let's try and set up the most accurate comparison we can.

At 183pts you get 3x Nurgle Mutilators with the Mutilators Weapons rule, for 177pts you get 3x Nurgle Terminators each with a LC and Chainfist.

Mutilators have twice the # of wounds and Fear, while Terminators have Chaos Boons and aren't saddled by SnP. Melee output should be identical given no casualties. Damage falloff is more severe for the Terminators. There are some tradeoffs in the 'Mutilator Weapons" rules compared to the Terminators, which have permanent access to a LC and Chainfist. Pretty fair though. Neither can sweep, the Terminators cost 6pts less, and they have +1LD.

So which is the better pure multirole CC unit? I'll let you two decide, but I think this is a better comparison for discussion. If you want Mutilators, you aren't choosing them for Combi-Meltas and a min Chainfist.

Why are we buying both a Lightning Claw AND Chainfist though? I could just buy 1-2 Chainfists and leave just Power Axes or Mauls instead and use the saved points for the only appropriately costed Combi-Weapons in the game...

So, who's up for a vassal match? I can play today.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why are we buying both a Lightning Claw AND Chainfist though?

Offensively, that's kind of the Mutilator's thing. So this is an exercise in the most direct comparison possible.

If you want a Combi-Weapon platform, it makes about as much sense to buy straight LC/Chainfist Terminators as it does to buy Mutilators.


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 koooaei wrote:
So, who's up for a vassal match? I can play today.

Battle Reports please!

No volunteers so far...

I am up for it. Let me install Vassal.

Yoyoyo wrote:
I think we can do better. If you really want to see which unit outperforms the other, let's try and set up the most accurate comparison we can.

If by accurate you mean "let's try to recreate the mutilator using another unit" then sure. I don't really see why that is useful, especially if people are saying the mutilator's role is only useful because you can take 3 single guys, and you certainly can't do that with termies.
But why is that an accurate comparison? We can use the elite slot, or a similar number of points (I don't think there is going to be a situation at 1800 points where all of your troops, HQ, FA, and HS are full). When people compare the farseer to the autrach and say the farseer is better, they don't load up the farseer with melee weapons and try to use him outside of his role after all.

Especially since it's pretty well known that the melee upgrades for terminators are absurdly overcosted, and the melee special rule of the mutilator isn't worth very much. It seems a little like stacking the deck, or trying to focus on a very unusual scenario to score points, rather than build an optimal unit/list.

Yoyoyo wrote:

At 183pts you get 3x Nurgle Mutilators with the Mutilators Weapons rule, for 177pts you get 3x Nurgle Terminators each with a LC and Chainfist.

Alternatively, for about 180 points, we can get 4 Termies with combi weapons, with PFs and MoN. This is the more common terminator loadout (sometimes you see MoT, or no PFs and just combis).
So you can get 8 pg shots, or 4 melta shots. There are very few tanks that will survive 4 melta shots (flyers, Skimmers with Jink). 8 Pg shots can put wounds on heavy units (oddly enough, if the mutilators were taken as a unit, the 8 pgs would do some serious damage).
The unit has worse melee output unless charging (but I doubt either unit will get to charge much), worse attrition versus small arms (2 less wounds), worse attrition versus heavy arms (2 less wound) and a much better footprint/ranged attack.
This is a much fairer discussion then your loadout. Alternatively, we could do 5 terminators with combis and no upgrades.

That's a fair comparison, since you are comparing each unit in the role they are chosen for, and not shoehorning a unit into a role .

Yoyoyo wrote:

Mutilators have twice the # of wounds and Fear, while Terminators have Chaos Boons and aren't saddled by SnP. Melee output should be identical given no casualties. Damage falloff is more severe for the Terminators. There are some tradeoffs in the 'Mutilator Weapons" rules compared to the Terminators, which have permanent access to a LC and Chainfist. Pretty fair though. Neither can sweep, the Terminators cost 6pts less, and they have +1LD.

All true, probably why nobody would take terminators with this loadout.
Remember when Jancoran put up the scenario of breachers and scat bikes, and everyone was quick to chime in that the scenario was highly unlikely?
You are seeing something similar here.

Yoyoyo wrote:

So which is the better pure multirole CC unit? I'll let you two decide, but I think this is a better comparison for discussion. If you want Mutilators, you aren't choosing them for Combi-Meltas and a min Chainfist.

You can easily flip this statement around.

[b] If you want Terminators, you aren't choosing them for the LC and Chainfist combo [b].
So let's shoot for a more fair comparison, instead of choosing the worst loadout for a unit for a role on the battlefield that isn't even really needed.

Yoyoyo wrote:
I think we can do better. If you really want to see which unit outperforms the other, let's try and set up the most accurate comparison we can.

At 183pts you get 3x Nurgle Mutilators with the Mutilators Weapons rule, for 177pts you get 3x Nurgle Terminators each with a LC and Chainfist.

Mutilators have twice the # of wounds and Fear, while Terminators have Chaos Boons and aren't saddled by SnP. Melee output should be identical given no casualties. Damage falloff is more severe for the Terminators. There are some tradeoffs in the 'Mutilator Weapons" rules compared to the Terminators, which have permanent access to a LC and Chainfist. Pretty fair though. Neither can sweep, the Terminators cost 6pts less, and they have +1LD.

So which is the better pure multirole CC unit? I'll let you two decide, but I think this is a better comparison for discussion. If you want Mutilators, you aren't choosing them for Combi-Meltas and a min Chainfist.

You can't put both a lc and power fist on chaos terminators (except the champion). It is one or the other (and on the champion it is expensive to have both).

Jancoran, clearly when you had around 200 points to spend and you were choosing between cultists manning an ADL or mutilators you should have chosen the compromise. Mutilator manning the ADL with a second mutilator for deep striking (or filling the first mutilator's spot if it got shot off the ADL).

Or just get a heldrake instead?

 Ashiraya wrote:
Or just get a heldrake instead?

Well, the opposing argument is that all of your Troops, FA, and HS are taken, and all you have left are elite slots.
I think this is a bit absurd (6 full troops alone can easily cost 1200 points, never mind the FA choices) but it's the framework they are arguing from.

I'd just take a second CAD or a formation in that case.

Akiasura wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Or just get a heldrake instead?

Well, the opposing argument is that all of your Troops, FA, and HS are taken, and all you have left are elite slots.
I think this is a bit absurd (6 full troops alone can easily cost 1200 points, never mind the FA choices) but it's the framework they are arguing from.

That wasn't the example. The example was all but hq/troop/elite were full, which is not such a strange situation.

Jancoran was choosing between cultists, mutilators or terminators.

Since he runs a nurgle lord he could have chose rhino'd up plague marines, but I guess those fit his Night Lords theme worse than teleporting supermurderterminator mutilators.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Or just get a heldrake instead?

Not an option as was explained to you in detail, and which you didnt read.


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nareik wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Or just get a heldrake instead?

Well, the opposing argument is that all of your Troops, FA, and HS are taken, and all you have left are elite slots.
I think this is a bit absurd (6 full troops alone can easily cost 1200 points, never mind the FA choices) but it's the framework they are arguing from.

That wasn't the example. The example was all but hq/troop/elite were full, which is not such a strange situation.

Jancoran was choosing between cultists, mutilators or terminators.

Since he runs a nurgle lord he could have chose rhino'd up plague marines, but I guess those fit his Night Lords theme worse than teleporting supermurderterminator mutilators.

The Night Haunters spirit is alive and well in the Mutilators. So it fits.

But theme wasn't the reason for the Mutilators. It just happens to fit.

 Jancoran wrote:


Not an option as was explained to you in detail, and which you didnt read.

You misunderstand. It is an unreasonable premise. If you have placed yourself in a position where the best thing to take with your remaining points is a Mutilator, you have already made a mistake somewhere in the list building process.
Restructure your list instead of forcing yourself into taking poor units.

And how do you know what I read and not?


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 Jancoran wrote:


The Night Haunters spirit is alive and well in the Mutilators. So it fits.

What?


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Anyway, Jancoran, I am just talking. If your alleged tournament performances are more than just talk as well, surely you'd not hesitate to show it in a Vassal match?

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:


Not an option as was explained to you in detail, and which you didnt read.

You misunderstand. It is an unreasonable premise. If you have placed yourself in a position where the best thing to take with your remaining points is a Mutilator, you have already made a mistake somewhere in the list building process.
Restructure your list instead of forcing yourself into taking poor units.

And how do you know what I read and not?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:


The Night Haunters spirit is alive and well in the Mutilators. So it fits.

What?

Jancoran already talked himself into a corner when he unintentionally admitted that the only way Mutilators can be superior to anything is when you intentionally overspend on them, like when he posted the example with the nurgle terminators all armed with chainfists instead of sensibly only arming some of them with chainfists. He's just too deep in to actually admit his logic was flawed. Same with Yoyoyo, to them the only "fair" comparison is if another unit has the exact same loadout and capabilities of a Mutilator while placed into a very specific situation. They don't understand that the very premise of that is why Mutilators are bad; other units may not have the same methods to reach the same result, but can reach the same result much more easily using other methods (Bikes can accomplish other tasks during the game, and still turboboost to the back end to get linebreaker, while a Mutilator squad has to be held back in reserve for most of the game to avoid being killed). Similarly, other units might not do as well in such a situation, but they can avoid said situation altogether while Mutilators not only do not have that option (say, chasing down a vehicle), but actually forces you into that sub-optimal position.

Also if anyone's wondering. Yes, I have tried Mutilators before. They're like a rube-goldberg machine in that I have to find convoluted ways to set them up to even get good mileage out of them (namely, using other units to threaten them into position and using DS to get within punching distance). With a unit of Oblits, I just shoot the crap out of the enemy in one turn and be done with it.

Don't oblits have powerfists?