Mutilators anygood?

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**MechaEmperor7000**

Jancoran wrote:
HoundsofDemos wrote:
If you were limited to one CAD then maybe this would make sense in a larger game, but your not. Rather than take mutilators I would rather take another CAD, Formation, or demon allies and get something useful.

You're asking why I don't ally myself? Why? I've told you that I have.

In fact what I use is (and i alluded to it earlier) a Chaos Space Marine army with a Black Legion Allied Detachment. What you're suggesting costs me more Chaos Marines which i don't need just to fford NOT choosing a very good option for my strategy. why would I do that? Between the cost of them and their rhino, it simply doesn't help my plan to spend those extra points all in some effort to avoid an obvious choice, the Mutilator.

Strategy is the issue here.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

koooaei wrote:
Have played a game today. Not very competitive but there was noone else to play against as none of the opposition of mutilators was there to proove the point on the battlefield

Spoiler:

+++ (1496pts) +++

++ Chaos Space Marines: Codex (2012) (The Purge) ++

Sorcerer [2x Additional Mastery Level, Bike, Gift of mutation, Power Armour, Sigil of corruption, Spell familiar]
Mutilator [Mark Of Nurgle]
Mutilator [Mark Of Nurgle]
Mutilator [Mark Of Nurgle]
Mutilator [Mark Of Nurgle]
Mutilator [Mark Of Nurgle]
Mutilator [Mark Of Nurgle]

++ Chaos Space Marines: Codex (2012) (Combined Arms Detachment) ++
Chaos Lord [Bike, Dimensional Key, Gift of mutation, Lightning Claw, Power Armour, Power Fist, Sigil of corruption]
Chaos Cultists [Cultist Champion, 9x Cultists with Autopistols]
Chaos Space Marines [3x Chaos Marine with Boltgun, 1x Chaos Marine with Meltagun], Aspiring Champion [Combi-melta]
+ Chaos Rhino [Dirge caster, Dozer Blade]
Chaos Spawn [Mark of Nurgle, 5x Spawn]
Chaos Spawn [Mark of Nurgle, 5x Spawn]
Havocs [4x Autocannon, 4x Havoc], Aspiring Champion [Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon]
Imperial Bunker [Comms Relay, Void Shield]

VS IG
company command [carapce armour, plasmagun x2, power weapon, standard]
+ Chimera
vets [melta x3]
+ Chimera [dozer]
vets [melta x3]
+ Chimera [dozer]
scions [10guys, 2 melta]
scions [10guys, 2 melta]
armoured sen [sentinels x2, lascannon x2]
armoured sen [sentinels x2, multilasers x2]
leman russ battle tank [bolter sponsons]
leman russ battle tank [bolter sponsons]
devil dog [multi melta, cammo netting]

total 1498

Lord got Shred from mutation and nightfight warlord trait, sorc got nothing from mutaton and shrowding, hallucination and summoning,

1 Chaos. I got 1-st turn. Shrowding went off, didn't manage to summon + perilled and went superman on a 6. Moved forward, havoks glanced a chimera once. Score a bunch of VP for controliing objectives.
1 IG. Void shield went down from a devil dog's multimelta but shrowding, nightfight and cover saves led to only one spawn getting killed and one wound on another spawn. He scores no VP.
2 Chaos. I get to deepstrike 5 mutilators with re-roll from comms relay and do so very aggressively but all 5 scatter and 3 mishap. All 3 get delayed which is pretty nice. Shrowded goes off once again. Havoks score another glance on the chimera. Rhino goes flat-out towards a squad into a ruin to deny them overwatch and sorc with spawns try to make a 9" charge but fail. Lord and spawns multicharge sentinels and devil dog. Spawns shake and glance a devil dog and lord wrecks one sentinel with his power fist activating a dimensional key. Score a few more VP for controling objectives.
2 IG. He deepstrikes scions near my cultists but mishaps and gets misplaced - i put him into the corner on his side of the board. He stuns and glances a rhino - shrowding helps to survive. Than tries to kill a mutilator but it takes combined shooting from comsquad, chimera vets and lazcannon sentinels to kill one mutilator. The last sentinel gets wrecked by lord. He gets a point for first blood and killing a unit in shooting.
3 Chaos. I deepstrike all 4 mutilators within the dimensional key reach, cornering him completely. Move forwards with spawns for a multicharge on everything i can reach. CSM disembark and glance a leman russ with a melta. Havoks finish off a devil dog. Than i proceed multicharging stuff. Mutilator explodes a leman russ, spawns wreck vehicles here and there, sorc + spawns finally makes it to a squad in ruins and reaches another leman russ to boot, killing and wrecking everything.
3 IG. By this time he's got nowhere to run and is hopelessly behind on VP but he continues a game. Vets and comsquad kill 3 spawns, the rest of the list puts a wound on 2 mutilators. But than it's basically over.

Here's a pic from the start of 4-th turn

Yup. Box of doom. The Mutilators work well for it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Yoyoyo wrote:Mutilators aren't superior to Terminators.

Units are just tools to produce effects, and the idea is you use different tools in different situations.

Basically, don't blame a crowbar for not being a hammer.

The quote below implies differently:

Yoyoyo wrote:I think we can do better. If you really want to see which unit outperforms the other, let's try and set up the most accurate comparison we can.

At 183pts you get 3x Nurgle Mutilators with the Mutilators Weapons rule, for 177pts you get 3x Nurgle Terminators each with a LC and Chainfist.

Mutilators have twice the # of wounds and Fear, while Terminators have Chaos Boons and aren't saddled by SnP. Melee output should be identical given no casualties. Damage falloff is more severe for the Terminators. There are some tradeoffs in the 'Mutilator Weapons" rules compared to the Terminators, which have permanent access to a LC and Chainfist. Pretty fair though. Neither can sweep, the Terminators cost 6pts less, and they have +1LD.

So which is the better pure multirole CC unit? I'll let you two decide, but I think this is a better comparison for discussion. If you want Mutilators, you aren't choosing them for Combi-Meltas and a min Chainfist.

That was an example of what I mean by "ignored every scenario that doesn't favor mutilators over other types of troops". Whenever we put the Muties in a scenario that would realistically happen or compare a unit that can approach the same problem from a much more effective or point-efficient angle (such as Terminators that can shoot people with Meltas), it gets either brushed off as "not being the same role" or just completely ignored. Yes, the terminators would suck if they had to be restricted to pretend they're mutilators, but that doesn't innately mean Mutilators would be good for that situation either. "Pure Multi-role CC unit"? A Chaos Lord can do better for the same points. A Forge Fiend doesn't even need to get into CC range to be multi-role, namely because those two can actually catch the stuff they need to and can catch stuff that other things can't catch.

Finally, that whole "don't blame a crowbar for not being a hammer" analogy is very off. As it stands, a Mutilator is a tool without a purpose. Other things in the codex can either perform the same job better (which, surprisingly, is the Spawn of all things), perform it's job and something else (terminators with min. melee weapons and a combi weapon) or achieve the same ends through different means (anything with a decent gun). We're not blaming the Mutilator for not being a role it's not suppose to do, we're blaming it because the job it can do is both so obscure and inconsequential that it's taking resources away from other units to do their jobs (it's effectively only good against units that can't cause a lot of S8 wounds in a single turn, has no good guns, and walks slowly...which is basically other Mutilators). So no, we're not blaming mutilators for not being a hammer when it's a crowbar. We're saying we don't need crowbars and we're keep getting examples where the situation for a hammer is continually adjusted so a Crowbar can do it.

Did this all make sense to you when you read it out loud to yourself? Do you not understand that he is trying to tell you that the effect I am paying points for is the best tool for that effect and you are changing the discussion when you DEMAND that the effect I need be different? It's absurd to tell me that! Do you understand that this is what he is telling you?

Yes, I have read my own post out loud, and given that most other people agree with my stance, they have too. If you are going to attack me personally, especially when you don't even address the points I bring up with anything more than a "Are you stupid?" response, then I have no more reservations. Do you not understand that in your mind, you have narrowed the scenario so far that everything short of the dice rolls have now become in favour of the Mutilator Winning? You have literally came up with an improbably excuse as to why a certain outcome didn't come up, then when we challenge it you either ignore it or imply we are ignorant. And You, might I add, is the one changing the discussion. The Discussion is whether or not the Mutilators are Good. That means "are their effect something you Need?" No. It's not, at least for the majority of the people in this thread outside of you, Yoyoyo, and possibly kooaei (I have no clue if he mains them or not). If you actually read my post, my numerous posts, I have conceded the fact that the effect, in that very Specific scenario, yes the Mutilators are better. But I then Go On to say why that effect is not needed, why it's frivolous, and why, ultimately, it means the mutilators are bad. Like I said in the quote. I'm not blaming the Mutilators for being a Hammer when they're a Crowbar. I just don't need a Crowbar.

Also, this time if you're gonna quote me, at least quote me in full. Don't cherry pick my post again.

**Akiasura**

I'd just walk away at this point. They are clearly going to tailor the situation anyway, and neither of them will admit they are wrong.
They will continue to cherry pick, misquote, and insult people until you give up. Pretty much everyone else chiming in has agreed with what you're saying and that its correct. It's all you'll get.
Spare yourself the trauma, they will never ever admit they are wrong. About anything

**Jancoran**

"Tailoring it". Its an army I play and win with. Theres no tailoring of anything. Im relating an actualized usage. Not some THEORY. So theres nothing to tailor, no situation to alter. The reality is... Mutilators are demonstably good. All I hear is a lot of theory and strenuous objection based on rationalizations, not practiced attempts to learn the strategy it fits.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Akiasura wrote:
I'd just walk away at this point. They are clearly going to tailor the situation anyway, and neither of them will admit they are wrong.
They will continue to cherry pick, misquote, and insult people until you give up. Pretty much everyone else chiming in has agreed with what you're saying and that its correct. It's all you'll get.
Spare yourself the trauma, they will never ever admit they are wrong. About anything

Very much so. They have long since made up their mind about us, about our opinions and about our character long before the discussion started. This was simply an excuse to belittle us.

**motyak**

I think some people need to take a breath and remember this is a board about toy soliders, no need to cut quotes/get snarky to prove a point. Remember rule 1

**koooaei**

My point is that it's hard to mathhammer things outside of raw killing power like threat saturation, positioning and force spread. And this things are what mutilators can perform somewhat fine. They're like 2 times more threatening in melee than obliterators for the points. Reasonaply tough to not die from a stiff breeze early on.

All in all i'm reasonably happy with how they perform and what they can do. My only real issue is possible mishaps. Is there any other way i'm not aware of to mitigate scatter for csm? Other than dimensional key cause i haven't managed to charge it before turn 2. Maybe there's a way to delay mutilators to turn 3? Something? I'd prefer no scatter tobe honest. Maybe some locator beacons or stuff from allies?

**Slayer-Fan123**

Except Mutilators fail at that. You can make the same claim for Warp Talons, and Bikers/Raptors outperform them. In the same way, unless your list is junk in the first place, you'll have the points for a few Terminators.

**koooaei**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Except Mutilators fail at that. You can make the same claim for Warp Talons, and Bikers/Raptors outperform them. In the same way, unless your list is junk in the first place, you'll have the points for a few Terminators.

They didn't fail in my game. Don't see why they should, to be honest. There are no better options for that very job at that point range.

I've had a 2-d game where 3 mutilators managed to deepstrike behind enemy lines turn 2. That was handy cause i lost one squad of spawns with sorc and my 2-d squad was worn out. But the combined force of my frontline leftovers and mutilators made the day. Mostly cause the opponent was very shooty but had nowhere to run.

To be honest, i find them on par with obliterators in this regard. I often had obliterators do nothing with shooting but act as a backline bully in melee. Mutilators do it better and cheaper. No shooting though. But that's why they're cheaper.

Gaming experience > Theoryhammer. At least for me. I've seen them perform fine in 2 games out of 2. Will need to test them against tougher stuff but i think they'll be even better against deathstar lists.

**Yoyoyo**

I gotta say despite a little drama I've been enjoying this thread a lot.

Between kooaei and Jancoran's experiences, it's quite clear how this strategy works. There needs to be a fairly sturdy unit with high mobility (Spawn, Raptors) that can quickly corral the enemy against the board edge. Once escape is shut off, Mutilators deepstrike to make the backfield untenable, so the enemy can't stall the FA element and reorganize. So basically, it's just hammer and anvil. It's kind of elegant, really.

With less forces on the table CSM doesn't present many good targets. The FA element is protected by psychic buffs and cover, while the Mutilators in reserve can't be targeted. There are no good AT targets, which spoils the utility of units like the Meltavets and Lascannon Sentinels. Probably the best counter for the Guard player would have been breaking open a flank so he could have escaped the trap closing around him, but once those Mutilators 'completely corner' his forces on T3 it's no longer an option. And that's very early in the game. Maybe he could have deployed differently? Either way it's a neat little strategy.

In terms of further optimization, getting Cursed Earth up reliably by T2, and finding some effective way to remove AP2 weapons from squads without compromising the FA elements, would do a lot to help the Mutilators tilt the game harder. But as was noted, that synergy is pretty hard to achieve within CSM alone. I think their only anti-scatter Mechanic is the dimensional key, and for sniping models you're limited to Focused Witchfires.

It will give up 1st Blood reliably but I guess that's life

**koooaei**

OH! I think i've found solution. Daemons have icons and instruments that allow other daemons to deepstrike within 6" of the bearer and scatter only d6 inches. Mutilators are daemons. 6" is not much but a mutilator on each side is neat. I'm planning to take daemonettes + masque + chariots for anti-tank and torrent flamers.

Will allow to save points on the key and take 2-d sorc perhaps. Will need to re-think the fortification and havoks. Was not impressed by 4 autocannons. Not that they're too bad but not outstanding.

**nareik**

That was an interesting report, people always poo-poo the dimensional key. I've been tempted to take it on a Tzeentch disc, even just for the difficult/dangerous terrain effected (but never put it into practice).

koooaei wrote:
My point is that it's hard to mathhammer things outside of raw killing power like threat saturation, positioning and force spread. And this things are what mutilators can perform somewhat fine. They're like 2 times more threatening in melee than obliterators for the points. Reasonaply tough to not die from a stiff breeze early on.

All in all i'm reasonably happy with how they perform and what they can do. My only real issue is possible mishaps. Is there any other way i'm not aware of to mitigate scatter for csm? Other than dimensional key cause i haven't managed to charge it before turn 2. Maybe there's a way to delay mutilators to turn 3? Something? I'd prefer no scatter tobe honest. Maybe some locator beacons or stuff from allies?

You can try and force mishap if they arrive turn 2 and hope they get to show up next turn. But really, scatter doesn't tend to be so punishing when you're landing a single 40mm base, and a single mutilator is cheap enough to risk. Depending on how poorly your opponent has positioned, and where you have managed to get your other units upfield, you only might need one or two to arrive safely.

**A Town Called Malus**

nareik wrote:
That was an interesting report, people always poo-poo the dimensional key. I've been tempted to take it on a Tzeentch disc, even just for the difficult/dangerous terrain effected (but never put it into practice).

But look at the battle report, the dimensional key only got activated after 5 of the 6 units of mutilators were rolled to have turned up anyway. 3 of them scattered into a mishap and then were fortunate enough to go back into reserve.

If they hadn't scattered or the mishap had destroyed them or allowed the opposing player to place them then the Dimensional key would have guided in a single mutilator. Which is not really worth the points cost.

If Chaos marines had some method of delaying reserves, then it would be great. As it is, it really isn't that useful as there's pretty good odds that by the time it gets activated your units are already on the table.

**nareik**

But they do have a method of delaying reserves, trying to force a mishap and hoping for the best!

Chaos is fickle indeed!

**A Town Called Malus**

nareik wrote:
But they do have a method of delaying reserves, trying to force a mishap and hoping for the best!

Chaos is fickle indeed!

That's not really a very good method. If you don't mishap your unit is probably in the wrong place as you were aiming for a mishap rather than to actually land them where you need them, if you do mishap then there's the chance your unit ends up either dead or on the complete opposite side of the board to where it wants to be.

**Experiment 626**

koooaei wrote:
OH! I think i've found solution. Daemons have icons and instruments that allow other daemons to deepstrike within 6" of the bearer and scatter only d6 inches. Mutilators are daemons. 6" is not much but a mutilator on each side is neat. I'm planning to take daemonettes + masque + chariots for anti-tank and torrent flamers.

Will allow to save points on the key and take 2-d sorc perhaps. Will need to re-think the fortification and havoks. Was not impressed by 4 autocannons. Not that they're too bad but not outstanding.

Keep in mind that;
1. The Instrument unit must also be in reserve and pass their roll first. You also cannot chain in a unit that's already made a Reserves roll that turn.
Instruments are good, but they can still backfire horribly.

2. The Masque is pure garbage.
She's not counted as a Herald, so you can't buy her in the 4-for-1HQ slot package.
She can never join other units, and a re-rolled 5++ is actually worse than her old 3++ save!
Her dances are all short ranged and require direct Line of Sight, meaning you have to put her frail as hell T3/W2 frame into harm's way.

She is so much more trouble than she's worth... At best, you can potentially catch an opponent exactly once with her, provided they're also entirely ignorant about Daemons in general. Mostly though, she's the single easiest 1st Blood point to be had in the entire game.
The amount of buffs you literally need to throw at her, (Cursed Earth and/or Forewarning, Grimoire, Invis, etc...), are better off even going to the likes of the Mutilators themselves or Warptalons! (let alone other actual scary Chaos Daemon units like Seekers/Hounds/Screamers, etc...)

The Masque is easily the single worst model in the entire game! Even die-hard fluff bunny Daemon players admit she's a steaming turd.

3. Don't take Burning Chariots unless you've got a bunch of other Warpflame attacks to compliment it.
Our Heavy section still contains Soul Grinders, (your much safer source for torrent templates), Princes with the same alignment as an HQ Greater Daemon, even Khannons and the Slaany Chariots.

Warpflame requires saturation to not turn around and bite you in the rump. Unless you can also reliably back-up the Burny Chariots with Flickering Fire, Flamers et all, don't bother with them!

The other option for them is to simply take 4 Exalted Flamers on their own! They count as Heralds, so you can take 4 per HQ slot.

**Mozzyfuzzy**

So we're now talking about taking daemon allies to make mutilators work?

Why not just add more daemons than take mutilators?

Or why not just take daemons?

**nareik**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
nareik wrote:
But they do have a method of delaying reserves, trying to force a mishap and hoping for the best!

Chaos is fickle indeed!

That's not really a very good method. If you don't mishap your unit is probably in the wrong place as you were aiming for a mishap rather than to actually land them where you need them, if you do mishap then there's the chance your unit ends up either dead or on the complete opposite side of the board to where it wants to be.

I didn't say they had a good method, I said they had a method

.

**Experiment 626**

Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
So we're now talking about taking daemon allies to make mutilators work?

Why not just add more daemons than take mutilators?

Or why not just take daemons?

Actually, the 'best' way to make any of the daemonic CSM stuff work is to just ally some of it to a proper Daemon army!

If I can find the rules somewhere for that Purge special detachment, (does it have to be all Nurgle?), I might try it out myself.

**Gordon Shumway**

Experiment 626 wrote:
Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
So we're now talking about taking daemon allies to make mutilators work?

Why not just add more daemons than take mutilators?

Or why not just take daemons?

Actually, the 'best' way to make any of the daemonic CSM stuff work is to just ally some of it to a proper Daemon army!

If I can find the rules somewhere for that Purge special detachment, (does it have to be all Nurgle?), I might try it out myself.

No, it doesn't have to be all Nurgle, unmarked are allowed as well. Just no other marks.

**dusara217**

Ok, so the general consensus is that Mutilators are good for target saturation, and little else.
The positive camp says this makes them good
The negative camp says this makes them bad.
/thread

**MechaEmperor7000**

Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
So we're now talking about taking daemon allies to make mutilators work?

Why not just add more daemons than take mutilators?

Or why not just take daemons?

My point exactly. Except replace "Daemons" with prettymuch anything else.

EDIT: Kooaei showing me the Purged Detachment actually does open up a legitimate use for Mutilators, one that no other unit in the codex can do better than it, but it's none of the things stated above. I'm gonna be coy and ask if any of you can guess what it is. :3 (it's actually not that hard).

**Jancoran**

koooaei wrote:
My point is that it's hard to mathhammer things outside of raw killing power like threat saturation, positioning and force spread. And this things are what mutilators can perform somewhat fine. They're like 2 times more threatening in melee than obliterators for the points. Reasonaply tough to not die from a stiff breeze early on.

All in all i'm reasonably happy with how they perform and what they can do. My only real issue is possible mishaps. Is there any other way i'm not aware of to mitigate scatter for csm? Other than dimensional key cause i haven't managed to charge it before turn 2. Maybe there's a way to delay mutilators to turn 3? Something? I'd prefer no scatter tobe honest. Maybe some locator beacons or stuff from allies?

Well your strategy might differ, but in my force i kinda want them there turn two. Not charging til turn 3 is fine. I dont really know what you're trying to do with yours.

The Key is one answer (I hi-lited its virtue in my Warp Talons article). I don't know if an Aegis would help? I havent got it in front of me but the Comms relay lets you re-roll reserves. There is also a Warlord Trait that helps manipulate reserves that you could try for.

Also, outflanking them might be an option if you hve enough of them. that would require a really fast flexible middle of your army and would lead to some Mutilators being out of position for most of a game. So i am not soo sure i like that option in most games.

Oddly, I think the Autarch could be a crazy idea. He works on the army if I recall. Come the apocalypse, no doubt but he can do shenanigans? I just woke up and haven't even gotten coffe yet but those are my thoughts for the moment.

**Martel732**

I've seen a lot of Autarch reserve scatterbike shenanigans.

**Jancoran**

dusara217 wrote:
Ok, so the general consensus is that Mutilators are good for target saturation, and little else.
The positive camp says this makes them good
The negative camp says this makes them bad.
/thread

Almost.

**Martel732**

dusara217 wrote:
Ok, so the general consensus is that Mutilators are good for target saturation, and little else.
The positive camp says this makes them good
The negative camp says this makes them bad.
/thread

Oh, and that mutilators are better than BA. :(

**koooaei**

Experiment 626 wrote:

2. The Masque is pure garbage.

WAT? You call auto-grounding FMC, locking any unit in place and denyng overwatch 'pure garbage'?

Masque is golden as a 75 pt backup for those who can't deal with deathstars. It showed itself exceptionally good with orks. And csm melee pressure lists would benefit from it tremendously as csm can't reliably deal with deathstars.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
So we're now talking about taking daemon allies to make mutilators work?

Why not just add more daemons than take mutilators?

Or why not just take daemons?

They work without daemons too. I'm just thinking of ways to make them more reliable with scatters. And can't find good solutions in csm codex. Maybe i miss something?

**Slayer-Fan123**

You never actually presented that list when multiple people said they were interested in seeing it, nor did you present any battle reports with it. Until then, dumb luck is what it is.

If anybody has Vassal and has already challenged the "Mutilators is goodz" camp, I have a list I'd like to throw your way to see how it deals with those various lists, as it honestly shouldn't be a problem. Not having a decent computer sucks in this instance.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also you didn't miss anything for the more accurate Deep Strike within the CSM codex. If there were, I'd be running even MORE Termicide.

**Yoyoyo**

Scrier's Gaze would give you reserve rerolls.

You could keep the Instrument/Icon on the board, rather than in DS.

**MechaEmperor7000**

The idea I had for them was to use them as the minimum tax for The Purge Detachment to unlock HS slots.

At 55 points a piece, they are only 5 points more expensive than the Cultists, and the lowest-costing Elites Choice. For the Purge, this means for a modest investment of around 200 points (a HQ of some kind, possibly Sorceror or a modestly equipped Chaos Lord) you get access to 4 CSM HS choices, 1 fortification and a LoW choice. You also technically have 4 more Elites choices but that section isn't very crowded to begin with and if you were taking elites they might be better than the Muties, so I'm ignoring that for this part.

But point for point you get 1 more HS slot for 10 points more than another CAD, and since the HS slot is easily one of the more bloated sections of the CSM dex, it could be a worthy investment to bring in more Obliterators, Havocs (they are better at being MSU special weapon harassers than anything else in the codex), more tanks, Fiends and, if by some reason you want them, Defilers. The drawback of only having Mark of Nurgle or No Mark isn't that bad when the MoN is one of the stronger marks in the book.

At least, that's how I would use them if I had to field them. For me though I just go straight up unbound since CSM doesn't have that many good command benefits to begin with, but it's something.

**Slayer-Fan123**

I already pointed them out as a "Troop Tax" earlier in the thread. It doesn't make them any bit useful though. At least Cultists have OS, but then I'd rather have 4 Heavy Slots.

Therefore, why not just run Termicide as your tax? 225 points is more expensive, but what were you going to spend that extra 100 points on anyway?