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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I already pointed them out as a "Troop Tax" earlier in the thread. It doesn't make them any bit useful though. At least Cultists have OS, but then I'd rather have 4 Heavy Slots.

Therefore, why not just run Termicide as your tax? 225 points is more expensive, but what were you going to spend that extra 100 points on anyway?

Sorry, I didn't see it through the 13 pages of drama that happened before. I wonder why this wasn't argued as their primary use rather than just "distraction" that keeps getting shouted at to the heavens.

But yeah, I would see them as purely to get the 4 HS slots, cuz if you just want more HS choices, there's no other way. For about a 400 point investment (this is including the obligitory HQ choice) you get access to 8 HS slots, which I can do a lot with (namely, spam Havocs in Rhinos with special weapons) Otherwise, I still agree with everything else you said.

They're being used an elite slot bullet sponge in a method that attempts to box in the opponent. They're better bullet sponges than anything BA have, so it's hard for me to judge that. Maybe if you throw out some nurgle marines and such, CSM can be tough enough to tank Tau and Eldar shooting. Which would make them way better than BA, actually. That doesn't seem to be the consensus around here.

Nurgle Marines aren't tough enough to handle that. Plague Marines are a different story.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nurgle Marines aren't tough enough to handle that. Plague Marines are a different story.

I mean plague marines. The only Nurgle marines that matter.

Fair enough. I have to point out the need to differentiate them though.

They make use out of the Purge FOC as well. If you absolutely don't want a MoN Lord, you can still get them as "troops". No OS, but that's not entirely important.

 dusara217 wrote:
Ok, so the general consensus is that Mutilators are good for target saturation, and little else.
The positive camp says this makes them good
The negative camp says this makes them bad.
/thread

It's more like the positive side says they can be quite useful, in a limited and specific context.

The negative side has argued that they are not "any bit useful" or "useful as a troop tax", in an unlimited context.

My impression was that Akiasura somehow managed to argue both sides at once.

Martel has argued that they are more useful than BA.

Koooaei won a game with them and posted a report, which didn't really change anyone's mind.

So basically this thread is the General Discussion forum operating as per usual

Yoyoyo wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:
Ok, so the general consensus is that Mutilators are good for target saturation, and little else.
The positive camp says this makes them good
The negative camp says this makes them bad.
/thread

It's more like the positive side says they can be quite useful, in a limited and specific context.

Well in an extremely unusal and one dimensional context, sure.
The positive side is also proving to be quite insulting which isn't helpful to the discussion.

Yoyoyo wrote:

The negative side has argued that they are not "any bit useful" or "useful as a troop tax", in an unlimited context.

Not really, the troop tax argument is brand new and just started (and actually seems like the best use for them). The negative side is the side who said they were useful against slow armies with stationary tanks like IG after all, which is what we saw.
The negative side is also arguing that their uses aren't really needed in most lists/opponents, and they are only able to operate against relatively rare army builds anyway. Making them, over all, not a good unit.

Take, for example, the most recent battle report.

It's an IG list that features very little weapons that are considered effective (LRBT, Sentinels with Lascannons, No Wyverns, not a lot of guard with divination).
The Chaos list takes 6 mutilators and an item that helps them with deep strike.
When you look at a few of the mutilators accomplished, it seems that those individual mutilators performed well.
When you look at the mutilators as a group of 6, it seems that they performed poorly. They only managed to absorb about 600 points worth of shooting throughout the entire game (in a game that featured 5000 points of shooting). They managed to destroy a few stationary targets, but didn't earn the points back for the 6 (Could be wrong, not looking at the IG codex currently but it seems that way).

Two sides look at that report.
The positive side says "Look at what that one mutilator accomplished! 300 points worth of firepower, and another one destroyed a tank! That's great, and proves that they are worth it."
The negative side says "6 Mutilators against IG (one of their best opponents) and an unoptimized list and all they accomplish is one round of absorbing firepower and a few targets? Not worth it"
It's possible we have a very different definition of when a unit is worth its points however.

Yoyoyo wrote:

My impression was that Akiasura somehow managed to argue both sides at once.

Right?
It's almost like someone was trying to determine what uses mutilators have, if any, rather than have an agenda
I've also been the only person willing to admit that both sides are right to a degree.
Crazy for a forum I know.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Martel has argued that they are more useful than BA.

Martel looks at everything through the lens of BA, it's true.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Koooaei won a game with them and posted a report, which didn't really change anyone's mind.

True.
This is the same with the last battle report. The mutilators don't seem to be earning their points back by absorbing fire or direct kills, so it's hard to say what their value is compared to say...the spawn in this game.
Generally if you are a competitive player, you aren't going to be impressed by very...poorly designed lists, especially in a game like 40k where list construction is huge. It's not anything different than what the negative side said pages ago....IG with stationary targets are vulnerable to mutilators.
IG with stationary targets are not competitive however. I think nearly everyone can agree that is the case, a quick look at tournaments will show that is the case.

For the record, I don't like sides in a debate. We should all be trying to share ideas and come to as objective a truth as possible in a game like this.

Yoyoyo wrote:

So basically this thread is the General Discussion forum operating as per usual

Yup.
Even had people coming in and insulting people after only a few posts

As far as using them as "troops" tax for the purge detachment, I would rather use the cheap spawn instead as my Elite choices. 55pts for 3 spawn vs 55 points for one mutilator. Seems like a much better option to me.

There's no Spawn in the Elite Slot for the CSM codex...

Spawns are fast attack in the CSM dex no? Unless you're talking about the renegades, but I was refering to using them to unlock CSM HS choices (which, as I understood it, couldn't mix and match with the Renegades)

Ah, I was thinking since we were discussing using a Purge detachment out of SOV, we could discuss the better option out of there as well for Elites. If you want to limit to just CSM codex, yeah, not so much.

If we were allowed to mix and match, we most definitely would.

Akiasura wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
My impression was that Akiasura somehow managed to argue both sides at once.

Right?

Saying "Mutilators are useful in certain situations, provided those situations are uniquely those which are useless to the player" isn't a good argument. It's just a very silly position to defend. I'm assuming you write so much and avoid summaries because it helps mask how nonsensical that line of thought really is.

Getting back on track, the scenario being discussed now is this. Two FA wings bottle up the enemy, at which point Mutilators can DS into the trapped enemy to conduct charges on the following turn. By choosing this strategy it maximizes the Mutilator's value (durability, threat saturation, positioning and force spread). The questions are:

1) What makes the most effective FA element? So far we've seen Lords/Sorcs with Raptors/Spawn.
2) What makes the best DS element? Mutilators are functional but perhaps there's a better DS option.
3) What has the best synergy? Comms Relay and the Dimensional Key have been used, right now Daemon allies are a point of discussion.

Screamers with Tzeralds perhaps? More units from Malefic powers would put extra pressure on the confined enemy, Cursed Earth would solve DS scatter, and you can get the Grimoire to lend extra durability where you need it.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:
My impression was that Akiasura somehow managed to argue both sides at once.

Right?

Saying "Mutilators are useful in certain situations, provided those situations are uniquely those which are useless to the player" isn't a good argument.

It's a good thing I've never said that, but let's avoid having an actual attempt at understanding someone's stance here.

Yoyoyo wrote:

It's just a very silly position to defend. I'm assuming you write so much and avoid summaries because it helps mask how nonsensical that line of thought really is.

I'm assuming you don't quote people in their entirety so that it's easier to misconstrue what they are saying, like the last time this happened.
Or you just want to avoid having a debate (since you don't actually want to discuss anything that was actually said at all...) while making attacks.
But hey, that's just a theory.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Getting back in track, the context being discussed now is this. Two FA wings bottle up the enemy, at which point Mutilators can DS into the trapped enemy to conduct charges on the following turn. By choosing this strategy it maximizes the Mutilator's value (durability, threat saturation, positioning and force spread). The questions are:

1) What makes the most effective FA element? So far we've seen Lords/Sorcs with Raptors/Spawn.

Bikes are generally seen to be the best FA option. The fact they can turbo boost makes them the better option to support a mutilator over Raptors. Best of all, by making them T6, you make a lot of the small arms the enemy has taken pretty useless between the two units.
Even better, if they turbo boost round one and the enemy was at all forward, you can be in melee by turn 2, preventing enemy squads from firing at the mutilators when they arrive.

Raptors are much slower than bikes, and won't see melee until turn 3 at the earliest, a turn later than the mutilators will arrive unless you want to hold them in reserve (or roll poorly, but you are taking comms/dimensional key for a reason).
If you want to spam transports, however, raptors are probably superior to bikes.

Yoyoyo wrote:

2) What makes the best DS element? Mutilators are functional but perhaps there's a better DS option.

Well, Terminators with a useful loadout were suggested several times. They do a slightly different job than mutilators, though in a pinch can perform a similar role. Having a decent ranged punch can eliminate problem units if they take enough combi weapons, and they must be dealt with.
The best way to run them is a 3 man squad, only combi weapons. I believe it's called termicide.

Oblits are far and away superior in nearly every way, but use a more competitive slot, so if you are already full up on HS, are probably not what you are looking for.

Yoyoyo wrote:

3) What has the best synergy? Comms Relay and the Dimensional Key have been used, right now Daemon allies are a point of discussion.

Assuming you mean deep strike? If you want synergy in the form of buffs, Mutilators in single man squads are probably not worth casting them on.
If so, Daemon allies are very good. The daemon codex is much better than the CSM codex overall, with only a few units from CSM being worth taking.

A small Termicide Squad (armed with Combi-Meltas) costs 110 points, exactly the same as 2 Mutilators. It's functionally the CSM version of Drop Pod Sternguards, but a bit more risky as nothing in the CSM codex has mishap mitigation.

I've used it a few times and due to the number of models they actually cause opponents to totally freak out. The vehicles popped by the Combi Meltas though are more due to the strength than due to the Melta rule, as I've never successfully deepstriked close enough to a vehicle to get that (and didn't want to risk them being destroyed before doing anything). The only reason I don't use combi-plasmas is because my models are the old metal ones that came with the combi-meltas. They almost certainly die within 2-3 turns though, but by that time it's inconsequential since they've blown up something like a hammerhead or Leman Russ (effectively trading for the points).

If you're able to strike rear armor, Plasma can and will be safer.

Plasma is overall better. But again I'm with old models and the vintage collector in me can't bring myself to update them with new weapons. Derp.

Akiasura wrote:
Terminators with a useful loadout were suggested several times. They do a slightly different job than mutilators, though in a pinch can perform a similar role.

Not looking for Termicide, not looking for Sternguard, not looking for a different unit that can perform a similar role "in a pinch".

We want a unit that can perform the exact same role, but better.

So we're looking for a dedicated CC bully that can cost-effectively smash any target it encounters without losing effectiveness, and get where it needs to by deepstrike. That's more along the line of Assault Centurions than Sternguard.

I prefer combi-plazma termies. They have a ld problem, though.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
Terminators with a useful loadout were suggested several times. They do a slightly different job than mutilators, though in a pinch can perform a similar role.

Not looking for Termicide, not looking for Sternguard, not looking for a different unit that can perform a similar role "in a pinch".

Apparently you're not looking to address anything I said earlier or quote what was said in their entirety either...
Because the original statement made by you was What makes the best DS element? Mutilators are functional but perhaps there's a better DS option
I think Terminators fit the criteria of "DS option".
Or you can keep cherry picking. I don't know why you're so determine to continue doing this, but go crazy.

Yoyoyo wrote:

We want a unit that can perform the exact same role, but better.

If you want to move the goalposts to that, fine. But that was not your original statement.

Yoyoyo wrote:

So we're looking for a dedicated CC bully

I wouldn't call it a bully, as there are many units that can beat the mutilator in combat, but if you want a dedicated CC only unit that Dses I think all you got is warp talons as far as the CSM codex goes. For a dex about chaos, we don't have much in the way of DS options.
I couldn't suggest warp talons to anyone, so mutilators it is.

Unless you want to include daemons. Daemons have a lot of CC units that can act as bullies.

Yoyoyo wrote:

that can cost-effectively smash any target it encounters without losing effectiveness,

Well, this is not the mutilator.
There are many units in the game that can kill the mutilator, in CC, before it even gets to strike. So, it's not any unit it encounters.
A DP would probably be a better choice, since it has a lot fewer targets that can roll it, but its much more expensive and can't deep strike.
I don't think there is a unit in the CSM dex that can cost effectively smash any target it encounters and deepstrike. We should probably make the goalposts more reasonable or include daemons.

Yoyoyo wrote:

and get where it needs to by deepstrike. That's more along the line of Assault Centurions than Sternguard.

I don't know why you bring up sternguard, I didn't.
Let's stick to the CSM dex, or possibly daemons. I don't know why you are bringing up sternguard or assault centurions, unless you, once again, aren't reading what people are typing.
Maybe you should quote and make points one at a time to avoid this kind of thing from happening.

BTW, i'm up for a game again. Want to test mutilators against other stuff than just IG.

Akiasura wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

My impression was that Akiasura somehow managed to argue both sides at once.

Right?
It's almost like someone was trying to determine what uses mutilators have, if any, rather than have an agenda
I've also been the only person willing to admit that both sides are right to a degree.
Crazy for a forum I know.

tbf, I already admitted that Oblits do the Muties' job much better than the Muties do. I was just arguing that Muties aren't useless garbage, and can have a useful role in certain, very specific competitive lists, so long as said lists play to the Muties' strengths.

 dusara217 wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

My impression was that Akiasura somehow managed to argue both sides at once.

Right?
It's almost like someone was trying to determine what uses mutilators have, if any, rather than have an agenda
I've also been the only person willing to admit that both sides are right to a degree.
Crazy for a forum I know.

tbf, I already admitted that Oblits do the Muties' job much better than the Muties do. I was just arguing that Muties aren't useless garbage, and can have a useful role in certain, very specific competitive lists, so long as said lists play to the Muties' strengths.

My apologies, I meant someone that was considered to be in a camp or side.
I'm basing who is considered in a camp by how they are being treated by certain posters. I don't think you qualify I'm sorry to say

I didn't mean to belittle or demean your contributions to this thread, which I've actually enjoyed since, while I disagree with you, they've generally been very polite with rare exception and were quickly remedied.

==================================================================================================================================
Including lines so people can more easily tell when I'm starting a different thought...

To my disagreement with your statement;
Can you define the bolded part? We may have a different criteria for what is considered competitive.

To me, competitive means what you typically see taken at the major tournaments. This includes the more famous builds that typically get nick names in these games (Centstar, ScreamerStar, Triptide, Scatbike Spam) as well as the better formations in the best codexes.
Against these codexes, I don't think the mutilator has a spot in the list. To be honest, I don't think CSM has a list at all, but if you're shooting for a game I'd leave the mutilators at home.

If by competitive you mean the best options within that specific codex, there are probably some armies that mutilators will do well against, with IG being the most obvious example given it's high amount of stationary tanks. We'd have to discuss what armies have competitive lists that mutilator would do well against, because honestly I would have no idea. My meta is mainly semi-competitive lists (we don't abuse allies much) with the more competitive factions, so I'm not very with factions like Dark Eldar, for example (at least as far as 7th is concerned). Unless I own the faction of course.

Akiasura wrote:
I don't know why you are bringing up sternguard or assault centurions, unless you, once again, aren't reading what people are typing.

Here's why:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
It's functionally the CSM version of Drop Pod Sternguards, but a bit more risky as nothing in the CSM codex has mishap mitigation.

I thought it was a very valid comparison from Mecha. And yes, I read what he typed, apparently you didn't. Maybe consider your own fallibility and tone down the snark.


Next, "DS element" specifically refers to a DS element in the context of koooaei and Jancoran's strategy. So don't ignore context and cherry pick yourself. The Termicide option and even Oblits have been sized up already. Reference koooaei's comments about threat saturation and positioning, and Martel's comments about being a cost-effective bullet sponge. You can't just see "CC bully" and forget about these other points we're using to compare value.

Daemon Prince is a fail on threat saturation, can't charge as many targets and is far less durable for the points. Same to Warp Talons, both these units are 3+.

Sternguard and Termicide do have earlier impact with Melta on the drop, but they are less durable and less capable in CC.

Oblits are pretty even I have to say.

Assault Cents serve the same purpose as a dangerous CC unit over a very short distance. They'd be a great analogue but they need a Drop Pod and can't run solo. So they don't really match either. Lictors are probably a better true analogue, max dispersion and a dedicated CC profile. They aren't tied down by SnP though, and have a ton of other advantages.

That's my take on it. Do try and control your outbursts a little, maybe even play the strategy so you understand how it works better. I am enjoying the more productive side of this discussion and I'd prefer to see the thread not get locked.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
Terminators with a useful loadout were suggested several times. They do a slightly different job than mutilators, though in a pinch can perform a similar role.

Not looking for Termicide, not looking for Sternguard, not looking for a different unit that can perform a similar role "in a pinch".

We want a unit that can perform the exact same role, but better.

So we're looking for a dedicated CC bully that can cost-effectively smash any target it encounters without losing effectiveness, and get where it needs to by deepstrike. That's more along the line of Assault Centurions than Sternguard.

Helbrutes can do it in the formation that lets them deepstrike. Terminators can do it AND shoot (And I'm saying they have the same effectiveness as Muties, not that they're unfocused). And that's just staying within the Elites slot (Raptors can do it too in the same vein as Terminators, and just name any daemon ally and they can do it too). Also, Mutilators lose effectiveness without even being hurt, since they must switch weapons each turn so unless they completely wipe out something AND there's a completely different type of unit nearby, they will lose effectiveness because they will have to switch to a sub-optimal weapon next combat phase. Terminators and Helbrutes don't have that drawback. (so, amusingly, Muties don't even fit the criteria you laid out)

Ironically, this type of suicidal thinking would be good in KDK, had they actually gotten Muties. They would have presented a legit dilemma there since the opponent doesn't /want/ to kill them to keep the blood tithe down. But noooo, the children of khorne gets Warp Talons instead.

The Helbrute comparison is actually pretty fitting.

And Mutilators would have been much more synergistic in KDK. The lack of synergies within the CSM book is one of their biggest downfalls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Also, Mutilators lose effectiveness without even being hurt, since they must switch weapons each turn so unless they completely wipe out something AND there's a completely different type of unit nearby, they will lose effectiveness because they will have to switch to a sub-optimal weapon next combat phase. Terminators and Helbrutes don't have that drawback. (so, amusingly, Muties don't even fit the criteria you laid out)

Legit and objectively negative drawback. It's one of the qualities where the (illegal) LC/Chainfist Terminators outperformed Mutilators in that comparison, and Helbrutes would also count.

Yes, which is why me and Akiasura have, repeatedly, stated that we know they fulfill a very specific, very niche role, but that role is Not Needed within the whole of the Chaos Space Marine as another unit can not only perform that role, but also do something else.

I had a long-ass explanation written up but then I realized you'd probably just ignore it or cherrypick it again. So I'll sum up my entire reasoning with a comedic vid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YyBtMxZgQs

if you can't tell, the Mutilator is the dude with the sword.

 koooaei wrote:

Gaming experience > Theoryhammer. At least for me.

Pretty much.

I'm not sure that Helbrute formation is better. Seems like you'd have to test that.

 dusara217 wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

My impression was that Akiasura somehow managed to argue both sides at once.

Right?
It's almost like someone was trying to determine what uses mutilators have, if any, rather than have an agenda
I've also been the only person willing to admit that both sides are right to a degree.
Crazy for a forum I know.

tbf, I already admitted that Oblits do the Muties' job much better than the Muties do. I was just arguing that Muties aren't useless garbage, and can have a useful role in certain, very specific competitive lists, so long as said lists play to the Muties' strengths.

Their slot makes them valuable. given that you have already used Obliterators in your heavy slots (I have) you can now pillage the elites slots for more ways to saturate the enemy. enter the Mutilator. In one CAD you can now drop six separate targets. This is excellent for the strategy of saturation and ablation.