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 koooaei wrote:
Another problem with plague marinesis that they require a lord to unlock. Lords are good but i generally prefer sorcs for the possibilities they open with psy powers. Fearless and poisoned knifes are great though.

You're likely going to use a Lord though in about half the lists you create, and further chances are it'll have MoN anyway to better avoid the ID Threshold. It isn't like you have to entirely go out of your way to actually make it happen. MoS is already junk anyway on the Lord, MoT gives no real benefits, and MoK only gives you the Juggerlord.

Plus if you're not going to use the Fast Attack slot much, The Purge FOC can make them into your "Troops" in the Elite slot. Then you can just ally in Cultists, whatever the other HQ was, and Spawn. BAM, done.

Martel732 wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
I disagree. For their points, PMs are only slightly tougher than marines in regards to shooting. They are much better at shooting however, point for point.

I could take 3 squads of marines with rhinos/pgs for every 2 plague marines. It'd be much easier to saturate the board with with plasma, havok launchers, and armor opening up a lot of possibilities.

This is largely pointless since chaos will never get the ability to take 5 man troops with 2 special weapons.

I didn't realize the point gap was that large. I'd probably do that too, then.

Plague Marines cost ~1.85 chaos marines.

Against Lasguns, the plague marine takes 0.037 wounds and the chaos marine takes 0.111 wounds. Advantage plague marine at 1:3 wound ratio.
Against Pulse Rifles, the plague marine takes 0.111 wounds and the chaos marine takes 0.222 wounds. Advantage plague marine at 1:2 wound ratio.
Against Tau plasma Rifles, the plague marine takes 0.444 wounds and the chaos marine takes 0.8333 wounds. Advantage plague marine at 1:1.88 wound ratio.
Against plasma gun hits the plague marine takes 0.556 wounds and the chaos marine takes 0.833 wounds. Advantage chaos marine as ~1:1.5 wound ratio is less than 1:1.85 point ratio.

So Plague marines are more survivable for their cost against anything S6 and below. S7 and above means you're better off with the more bodies from standard Chaos Marines.

On the other hand, if you just want two plasma guns then 5 Plague Marines are 20 points cheaper than the 10 man chaos marine squad.

MoT gives you 3++ which is fine and access to s8 ap1 beam if you'r erunning a psycher which is a very powerful thing for 1 WC.
MoS gives noize marines - pretty decent marked marines actually. They pay relatively cheap for a potent ap3 flamer, fearless and ini5.

Right, which is why you see them spammed.
We were discussing if you could take 5 man marine squads with 2 pgs. You can't currently but if you could it would be pretty good.



Agree on noise marines, I actually like them a lot, and they work really well in a rhino list if your meta is marine heavy. I don't think they are up to par compared to plague marines though, and nurgle bikers are most likely superior to slaanesh bikers. The only squad I think you want the lord in is the biker squad, though the raptor squad isn't that much worse.

Akiasura wrote:
Right, which is why you see them spammed.
We were discussing if you could take 5 man marine squads with 2 pgs. You can't currently but if you could it would be pretty good.

Even in a 5 man squad, from a survival point of view, plague marines would be worth it against anything but S7+ shooting.

Though, admittedly, S7+ is not in short supply these days.

I'm talking more about the offensive power and armor saturation. It was already mentioned that plague marines are pretty tough defensively.
Defensively, plague marines are worth it. Melee wise they would most likely still be better than the 5 marine squad point for point, defensively or offensively.

But offensively shooting, the 5 man marine squad with pgs would be greatly superior to the plagues. You could spam rhinos with havok launchers to make for a great saturation list. Really wish we had the ability to mix and match equipment more than the sm. apparently we kept the codex

 koooaei wrote:
MoT gives you 3++ which is fine and access to s8 ap1 beam if you'r erunning a psycher which is a very powerful thing for 1 WC.
MoS gives noize marines - pretty decent marked marines actually. They pay relatively cheap for a potent ap3 flamer, fearless and ini5.

1. You still have to roll for Doombolt. Since you can't roll more than half, you're stuck at a 33% chance to get it. That's pretty lousy since you could just roll on another table and get something better, like off Telepathy (Primaris is at least a guarantee)
2. Noise Marines need the Blastmaster to be MUCH cheaper. They should also be stock with the sonic guns, but that's a different topic. Also they won't live to get off the Flamer. It IS nasty, but you have to make it there, and they're only the toughness of a Marine.

The Mutilators which came in on T2 absorbed almost 400pts of shooting on the drop and wrecked a tank the next turn. That match was déja vu, I'd say that's not looking like a fluke at this point.

Martel732 wrote:
BA are mobile, but not competitive. A useful match up, actually. Does mobility alone ruin the mutilator scheme?

I'd like to see them face off against Ork hordes, mass Poison weapons from DE, and a MC-heavy list from Tyranids, maybe they will run into more difficulty. Dust off the Power Mauls and Lightning Claws basically. Anyways, they seem to be walking over 7th edition tank armies without much resistance.

Yoyoyo wrote:
The Mutilators which came in on T2 absorbed almost 400pts of shooting on the drop and wrecked a tank the next turn. That match was déja vu, I'd say that's not looking like a fluke at this point.

Martel732 wrote:
BA are mobile, but not competitive. A useful match up, actually. Does mobility alone ruin the mutilator scheme?

I'd like to see them face off against Ork hordes, mass Poison weapons from DE, and a MC-heavy list from Tyranids, maybe they will run into more difficulty. Dust off the Power Mauls and Lightning Claws basically. Anyways, they seem to be walking over 7th edition tank armies without much resistance.

I don't think anyone is claiming it's a fluke, just that the two lists are very similar and as optimal as it gets for mutilators. Both are very casual tank heavy lists that lack msu (one list has about 500 points in two tanks, unless FW landraiders get a price reduction) and anti-infantry.
After all, when I think 7th edition and competitive, tank heavy does not spring to mind.

I'd really like to see them faced off against a stronger list, rather than Orks or DE. FMC heavy tyranids could be interesting. So far, they haven't done anything that anyone has claimed was unwarranted for them.

 Ashiraya wrote:
You know something is pretty terrible when a Dreadnought hard counters it!

I know i'm (sadly) almost two weeks behind on this comment.

Dreadnaughts hard counter Manz. Are we going to say that Manz, one of the best units in the Ork codex, are now terrible? When pretty much every army with TEQ units lusts after them and constantly suggests they get rules changes which make their TEQ upto par with manz?

I'd say MANs aren't exactly great, actually, outside of a formation that kinda helps. Kinda.

Funnily enough, the best Ork units are the ones that shoot fairly well.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
You know something is pretty terrible when a Dreadnought hard counters it!

I know i'm (sadly) almost two weeks behind on this comment.

Dreadnaughts hard counter Manz. Are we going to say that Manz, one of the best units in the Ork codex, are now terrible? When pretty much every army with TEQ units lusts after them and constantly suggests they get rules changes which make their TEQ upto par with manz?

As someone who owns a lot of TEQ and MANz, I've never looked at MANz and wished all my TEQ could be like them. I don't even see it being mentioned on the site, tbh. TEQ are, defensively, not bad usually. It's their offensive output at range that suffers.
If I had to pick best unit in the Ork codex, it would probably be Loota's. Big Mek would be up there as well. After that probably bikerz, regular boyz...not to sure where to go from there.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
MoT gives you 3++ which is fine and access to s8 ap1 beam if you'r erunning a psycher which is a very powerful thing for 1 WC.
MoS gives noize marines - pretty decent marked marines actually. They pay relatively cheap for a potent ap3 flamer, fearless and ini5.

1. You still have to roll for Doombolt. Since you can't roll more than half, you're stuck at a 33% chance to get it. That's pretty lousy since you could just roll on another table and get something better, like off Telepathy (Primaris is at least a guarantee)
2. Noise Marines need the Blastmaster to be MUCH cheaper. They should also be stock with the sonic guns, but that's a different topic. Also they won't live to get off the Flamer. It IS nasty, but you have to make it there, and they're only the toughness of a Marine.

1. 66% if you roll twice.
2. I don't use blastmasters - they're counter-intuitive to what a unit of marines generally wants to do. It wants to controle the midfield as reliably and as cheap as possible. I find that a doom siren and bolters + ccw are good enough for this mission. Siren also threatens bikes a bit. And it's a good idea to soften up a target before your melee units charge in. It also helps a lot against assault. Flamer overwatch is nice.

As for manz - they're amazing cause they have trukks and 2 wounds. They're actually easier to make work than mutilators I totally see a massed manz list in trukks with vsg wrecking face to even top lists.

Akiasura wrote:
one list has about 500 points in two tanks, unless FW landraiders get a price reduction

I think so, those tanks were probably 2x Proteus Land Raiders. They are 200pts each and can be upgraded with Ceramite Armor (I think).

So I'm guessing it must have been hilarous/utter catastrophe when freakin MUTILATORS of all units start dropping all over his backfield to deliver Armorbane Chainfists into his melta-proofed Land Raiders. Unexpected lol.

There literally couldn't be a more perfect counter. So yeah no surprise he conceded in T3. Back to the drawing board!

Yep, they were 200 pt landraiders. LR aren't great since 6-th but his philosophy was that they're at least harder to kill than rhinos and he plays killpoint games a lot. So, it probably makes sence to have fewer more expensive and generally sturdy units out there. Especially in a shooty meta. LR in cover are pretty hard to take out. Especially, when it's a 3+ cover thanks to techmarine.

 koooaei wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
MoT gives you 3++ which is fine and access to s8 ap1 beam if you'r erunning a psycher which is a very powerful thing for 1 WC.
MoS gives noize marines - pretty decent marked marines actually. They pay relatively cheap for a potent ap3 flamer, fearless and ini5.

1. You still have to roll for Doombolt. Since you can't roll more than half, you're stuck at a 33% chance to get it. That's pretty lousy since you could just roll on another table and get something better, like off Telepathy (Primaris is at least a guarantee)
2. Noise Marines need the Blastmaster to be MUCH cheaper. They should also be stock with the sonic guns, but that's a different topic. Also they won't live to get off the Flamer. It IS nasty, but you have to make it there, and they're only the toughness of a Marine.

1. 66% if you roll twice.
2. I don't use blastmasters - they're counter-intuitive to what a unit of marines generally wants to do. It wants to controle the midfield as reliably and as cheap as possible. I find that a doom siren and bolters + ccw are good enough for this mission. Siren also threatens bikes a bit. And it's a good idea to soften up a target before your melee units charge in. It also helps a lot against assault. Flamer overwatch is nice.

As for manz - they're amazing cause they have trukks and 2 wounds. They're actually easier to make work than mutilators I totally see a massed manz list in trukks with vsg wrecking face to even top lists.

It seems like regular Marines will do that job you want. Blastmasters are one of the few advantages Noise Marines get. They can be fired on the move outside of the Rhino, and inside the Rhino you can still launch blasts that ignore cover. The Doom Siren just won't get a chance to do anything, seeing that Noise Marines are just MEQ's. Of course a Dreadclaw can deliver a Doom Siren accurately...

Regular csm have ld problems. They have melta, though.

Martel732 wrote:

If I'm facing a CSM list that can't table me with shooting, then things change a lot. I have multiple lists; some focus on mobile shooting, while my archangels sanguine wing list tries to maximize murder with VV squads that have the free power weapons. Murdering in particular things that threaten my obj sec tac squads. The Stormraven full of combi-melta sternguards has been unpleasant so far as well. That list has enough stuff on the table that I can consider the raven a throw away unit.

So... Is there one you use for tournaments? I assume there is? That's the one I'd use as an example.

Not a specific list. There's no real strong build, so I mix it up a lot.

Martel732 wrote:
Not a specific list. There's no real strong build, so I mix it up a lot.

Well... Its off topic, but if I were you, I would stick to one build and just tweak it as you go so you can master it. The first couple times you try a new strategy, it takes a few games to discriminate between bad luck and your faulty decisions vs. the actual list and how wll it CAN perform its mission.

For example my Night Lords looked very different when i first started as you can see on the blog battle reports. I started with a Defiler in the list if memory serves and tried a Land Raider and so on. The core of the list was unchanged but i slowly morphed the one list until it did what I wanted. Key words there: what I wanted. It now carries out both my plan A and my plan B when plan A goes to pot.

Again off the subject but throwing the baby out with the bth water probably won't make you more adept with the codex. You have to decide what your CORE strategy and back up plan will be, build a list you think can do it and then ever so slowly change it as games pile up until you feel its the best version of that CORE that you can. Having disparate lists (within the codex) that try different things isn't probably going to teach you how to strategize.

Just my opinion.

Personally, i like to play with everything. Luckilly, orks are great at doing this. I can easlly deploy orkartes, orklequins, orkdar, orka militarum, etc. and people will be quite happy to play against it. Well, at least at this place.

First of all, it's just fun to play different lists often. Second thing is that you start to see what's really behind the tactical decisions for this armies. And it's a very important thing. You start to see new weaknesses of this armies that might have been concealed from another point of view. I've noticed that i've started to generally perform much better against eldar after running them a few times myself.

But yep, practice makes perfect.

Anywayz, let's go back to mutilators. Anyone up for a test match?

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Not a specific list. There's no real strong build, so I mix it up a lot.

Well... Its off topic, but if I were you, I would stick to one build and just tweak it as you go so you can master it. The first couple times you try a new strategy, it takes a few games to discriminate between bad luck and your faulty decisions vs. the actual list and how wll it CAN perform its mission.

For example my Night Lords looked very different when i first started as you can see on the blog battle reports. I started with a Defiler in the list if memory serves and tried a Land Raider and so on. The core of the list was unchanged but i slowly morphed the one list until it did what I wanted. Key words there: what I wanted. It now carries out both my plan A and my plan B when plan A goes to pot.

Again off the subject but throwing the baby out with the bth water probably won't make you more adept with the codex. You have to decide what your CORE strategy and back up plan will be, build a list you think can do it and then ever so slowly change it as games pile up until you feel its the best version of that CORE that you can. Having disparate lists (within the codex) that try different things isn't probably going to teach you how to strategize.

Just my opinion.

I don't think BA can really have a core strategy, because they fail as both a shooting and as an assault army. I'm trying to have models on the table on turn 4, not have elaborate plans here.

I think i'll change a list up a bit. I'll take obliterators instead of chariot and havoks. Or probably some more daemons with an icon. Horrors, maybe.

Can anyone play Saturday?

Martel732 wrote:

I don't think BA can really have a core strategy, because they fail as both a shooting and as an assault army. I'm trying to have models on the table on turn 4, not have elaborate plans here.

I said strategy. You're not talking about strategy.

For example, the strategy for my list is to free the Chaos Marines to score my objectives through oppressive board control. That strategy once you state it out loud, instantly calls for certain units to fill it out.

For the Blood Angels, positional dominance is probably the watchword. You don't need to wreck face. You ned to be where and when you want ot be and stand that ground WHEN it's calld for,

There's different ways to go about everything but knowing WHAT you want to do is the thing.

Mutilators play well to that plan. They are there because they play well to that plan. In the case of Blood Angels, they are somewhat similar in nature albeit different enough to matter. But the same basic thing I do could be attempted with them. Different units, same result.

Its the strategy that is the important thing. Again, in my opinion. the army are tools. So long as they CAN do what you ask, how WELL they do it is of lesser importance. in the end, many strategies rely on only one survivor in the unit to carry out the mission.

Think about it. Mutilators aren't indestructible or anything. they die like everything else in 40K. But its the role they play that matters more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
Personally, i like to play with everything. Luckilly, orks are great at doing this. I can easlly deploy orkartes, orklequins, orkdar, orka militarum, etc. and people will be quite happy to play against it. Well, at least at this place.

First of all, it's just fun to play different lists often. Second thing is that you start to see what's really behind the tactical decisions for this armies. And it's a very important thing. You start to see new weaknesses of this armies that might have been concealed from another point of view. I've noticed that i've started to generally perform much better against eldar after running them a few times myself.

But yep, practice makes perfect.

Anywayz, let's go back to mutilators. Anyone up for a test match?

within the same codex was what I was addressing. Scattering all over and trying stuff isnt as effective as sort of a slow morphing attempt. You give in too quickly to despair when you dont force yourself to learn what little things you need to do to better the result each time. its like adding a drop of paint at a time to a color until you get the perfect color, you know?

One of our local players got interested in all that mutilator noize. He is in a camp of "Mutilators suck". Long story short, we've got a match soon where he's playing ultramarines with a new fancy charge from reserve vanguard formation. The stakes are hing. If mutilators loose than i make him an artillery piece out of plastic clay the size of an ork mek gun - he'll probably run it as one or as TFC. If mutilators win, he makes me a meganob out of...something like green stuff

Thats awesome. Will you video it?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Another problem with plague marinesis that they require a lord to unlock. Lords are good but i generally prefer sorcs for the possibilities they open with psy powers. Fearless and poisoned knifes are great though.

You're likely going to use a Lord though in about half the lists you create, and further chances are it'll have MoN anyway to better avoid the ID Threshold. It isn't like you have to entirely go out of your way to actually make it happen. MoS is already junk anyway on the Lord, MoT gives no real benefits, and MoK only gives you the Juggerlord.

Plus if you're not going to use the Fast Attack slot much, The Purge FOC can make them into your "Troops" in the Elite slot. Then you can just ally in Cultists, whatever the other HQ was, and Spawn. BAM, done.

Off topic but MoT does open up the option for jetbike, a good delivery system which also boosts offence and defence of the lord. If we're talking about unlocking cult troops (not sure if Thousand Sons are worth unlocking, but that is another discussion) then the sorcerlord on disc is a good place to put a burning brand, which is worth relatively more post heldrake nerf.

I agree the disc is an awesome upgrade, but it isn't worth buying MoT over MoN. T6 4++ is going to be more valuable than T5 3++ when Eternal Warrior isn't readily available. Plus with the Horns from the Supplement I can get an extra attack for around the same offensive output.

Also, that'd be excellent IF Sorcerers didn't have to do a roll on the Tzeentch table.

 Jancoran wrote:
Thats awesome. Will you video it?

Probably not video but will try to take a few pictures on my phone.

Had another vassal game vs the same dude with Raukaan but this time he changed it up a bit and played much cleaner from a tactical pov. He changed a knight for a purely melee one, moved away from the 2-d land-raider (which he owns irl...sad thing, really) and exchanged the first one for a redeemer full of shotgun scouts with a vet sarge with a fist (awesome), took a min squad of sniper scouts with a multimelta landspeeder storm, took a comsquad with an apothecary and accompanied them with a biker techmarine. I also changed the list a bit. As i wanted, changed havoks and a chariot for 4 nurgle obliterators.

He held ground 1-st turn, i pushed forward. Sorc took a wound summoning pink horrors and than min sniper scouts shot him down with a precision shot that i failed to look out and save. The 2-d sorc which was my warlord didn't get too lucky with psy powers - i should have rolled biomancy but decided to fish for invisibility but got all the mediocre powers.

Than i deepstrike most of my stuff all around the map, do squat with shooting due to VSG. Masque dances the hell out of comsquad so that they can only move d3 and have -5 ws. I get too confident and run too close to them - must have been 7" away from bikers but instead i think that he'd try to back up. My mistake. He than shoots down an obli and a mutilator, charges scouts into nurgle spawns and chops them down quite well making a lot of armor and 6+++ in the process - he was a champ at rolling fnp that game, really. He charges deepstriking daemonettes. Luckilly, with -5 to WS he only kills 3 and instability kills another 2. And bikers passed 2 out of 2 fnp. He charges a knight at a scattered mutilator that got into it's way. Than i separate warlord sorc and spawns, join sorc to a nearby mutilator, get force weapon, btw, sorc got +1 str form mutation, charge into the comsquad but sorc does below average and kills just one biker. He passes 3 out of 4 fnp for other wounds. 4+++ makes comsquad very tarpitty.

Mutilators wreck his flank without a knight but with a speeder and VSG exploding both. As he had both scouts and dread on the battlements and as it's not written how vehicles get this 2d6 s6 hits resolved, we decide that it's side armor => av13 dread doesn't care. But scouts get pinned. Other scouts leave just one spawn with one wound left down from the starting 3 (other 2 died to shooting previously). Knight charges into the daemonettes that got caught by a comsquad and kills them, piling in to the sorc and mutilator. Sorc kills another one dude and it happens to be an apothecary that doesn't make his look out. Spawns that have separated from a sorc wreck 2 demolishers and shake another one.

2 Oblis explode a landraider, wounding 7 nearby scouts in the process but they pass 5 4+ saves and 2 6+++ saves. Other oblit and 2 melta from marines does squat to a dread, i than charge it with an oblit that was wounded previously and daemonnettes to eat overwatch but dread does one wound to an obli in melee and i fail armor. He finally finishes off spawns with his scouts. Tarpits a mutilator with damned legioneers. My other mutilators finish off the sniper scouts and kill a few legioneers. Knight kills a mutilator, sorc kills a biker and now we're left in a combat with his warlord tech marine, knight and my warlord sorc.

I think it's around turn 4 and as he played quite conservatively for the first turn and basically got locked into his deployment zone for the whole game, i score a lot of VP from controling the board and we're like 8-4 in favor of CSM. and most of my "controle point X" are not drawn yet. I got lucky rolling 6 points for two d3 point missions early on.
As for the forces, he has an unharmed knight, a warlord, Dread locked down in combat with 1 daemonette, 3 legioneers locked with a full health mutilator and a bunch of scouts. I have a sorc locked into combat with his warlord and knight, pink horrors, 1 daemonette locked with a dread, 3 mutilators, 2 oblits near scouts, marines and cultists. So, in terms of forces, he wouldn't be able to wipe me out in time as i'm basically scattered across the whole map. So, we finish the game as he concedes as it was allready very late but this was a very close one and we both enjoyed it. If knight got lucky and rolled a 6 on a stomp killing my warlord sorc turn 3, it could have changed the outcome of the game eventually. But luck went both ways, he did extremely good with his saves, though. But poor landraider. I hate it when a 250 pt mostly transport vehicle gets one-shotted. Anywayz, the game was going in my favor but who knows what can happen with those maelstorm - i can get a bad hand and he can get a good one and than murderize stuff with a few lucky rolls. It's not likely but it happens from time to time but, once again, it was very late.

Now my thoughts about mutilators and the list on the whole. Mutilators did fine once again. They're pretty fine in this context and create a lot of tension if they don't mass mishap which also happens from time to time but icon helps out a lot. Oblits did better than havoks and chariot, i think. Also, i need to incorporate horrors into my list. Summoning is a great tool but it's quite dangerous for 2-wound sorcs without fnp. I could probably give up on a few upgrades here and there - like gifts of mutation, marines could be exchanged for another bunch of cultists or i could get rid of them whatsoever taking Purge as a main detachment. I do like rhino marines though. But they'd free a lot of points for another oblits and horrors that'd make summoning much safer. Will definitely keep mutilators. I think that 5-7 is a good number for them. Mixing them up with oblits is nice. Auto-loose for killpoint games, though