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So in conclusion, INFINITY and CB possibly didn't stumble with N3, and it is most likely just me.

Your malicious attempt to tear the community apart has failed!

Third proper game this weekend maybe!

Has it?

Or...

...have I succeeded in my mission?!?

Good luck with that game - please post your impressions!

I know I'm not him, but I had my first game today, Caledonian sectorial against Aleph and it was more fun than I remember having in my 2nd ed games. Of course small sample size etc but promising start

Which army were you playing?

And who won?

I was the scots, and after an early game horror show (greys and uxia going down for nothing, cateran killing 1 bot and going down), my brave brave sir doctor cautious moved from one piece of cover to another (what a great order!) and got the AP HMG grey back on her feet, she then did a bunch of work, then the doctor crept over to another grey and kicked him in the head in a very doctorly fashion and got him back in the fight as well! The efforts of these two models put the game back into balance, and it ended as a draw. If I had realised I could go dogged in the reactive turn (my opponent who was teaching me didn't realise Greys had dogged) I could have won

 Alpharius wrote:
So in conclusion, INFINITY and CB possibly didn't stumble with N3, and it is most likely just me.

Honestly? I think you may be on to something, myself. My group played N3 for a couple of months and then shortly after we just kind of left it. Which is weird, I like N3 more than 2nd Edition. It got rid of the Normal-Roll-Or-Die playstyle that became the primary successful playstyle in 2nd Edition. As an update of the rules N3 was excellent. But it wasn't the quality that caused the main point of consternation with us, it was the execution of the rollout.

The rollout of N3 certainly wasn't perfect, and it certainly had a lot of stumbling points and places where CB could have been a lot clearer. To be sure, N3 was every bit as complete as the previous editions out of the box, it was fully playable, and I think it was a great improvement over the base game. But despite that, it was less complete out of the box than 2nd Edition was at the end of its run, and sadly a lot of folks started post HS and things like Sectorials weren't just an optional and unimportant part of the game to them. It took a good while after the initial release to finally get a stopgap update for HS material and later. And all the while CB drummed the drum of "none of your books are obsolete, continue buying old books. Everything is fine, nothing is broken."

But then we got the updates for Human Sphere/Campaign: Paradiso and it was kind of obvious that these weren't anything more than a stopgap... Then they announced updated N3 Human Sphere. And it does feel like the game has basically been in a holding pattern while N3 plays catchup with 2nd Edition. Sadly, CB's usual slow-roll on book releases isn't doing them any favours here.

N3 basically suffered from a less than graceful entry, and in a lot of ways it actually feels like it was an unplanned diversion from the line in a lot of ways. Part of this is CB's poor communication making it seem like much of it was last-minute changes, especially with regards to re-printing old material in the new edition where they went from "it's all compatible" to "we're doing re-prints!" in the blink of an eye. It was hard to tell if they had planned this all along (thus misleading us) or if they decided all of it at the last minute (thus indicating a general lack of pre-planning on the edition rollout). Neither is utterly unforgivable, but it did severely blunt my group's enthusiasm while we wait for N3HS to drop and finally complete the N3 experience.

I'm sure they're still doing fine, and Fall/Winter is usually a pretty slow time for updates anywhere. But you aren't alone in feeling that the release of N3 was slightly askew and not quite as graceful as it could have been.

A ha!

I knew it!

Magneto Alpharius was right!

I think a hell of a lot more people were paying attention this time around, certainly when compared to N2.

So while launch of N3 was definitely better than N2 (and they had a lot more to release and update), at the same time the company is now bigger, with a much bigger group of customers that expect more.

Next few months will be interesting. Personally, I think a game that has been made by people with such passion for creating a quality product, with such a beautiful range of sculpts, and such a wonderful set of balanced game mechanics, has a right(!) to succeed. But, I suppose time will tell

The reason so many more people were paying attention to Infinity for N3, and why so many people seem to have fallen off the wagon, is Icestorm. There was a massive influx of people who were evidently waiting for a 2 player starter to jump in, which magnified the amount of people paying attention to an edition change that was anything but smooth (which even started with Icestorms inclusion of quickstart rules, with the main rules lagging behind).

It seems they came out of it with a bigger playerbase than they went into N3 with, since they seem comfortable devoting a lot of time to resculpting the range - something that wouldn't be adviseable without a large influx of people who didn't have the old models, but they definitely didn't keep all of the people that jumped on board with Icestorm.

I imagine thats the pattern for most game systems. Peaks and then recessions, and growth is what you retain from those peaks.
It can feel like a loss of interest in any given area, but usually that's based on experiences with Magic or 40k which had the same ebb and flow but such a large player base that you barely even noticed it even at a local level.

It seems like the obstacle that CB hit when they released N3 was basically that:
* There's no way that CB would have had the budget to do all of the rules revisions at the same time.
* The difference in quality between the 2nd edition and 3rd edition rules was great enough that the 'left over' 2nd edition rules made the game look bad.
* At the same time, CB couldn't abandon the remaining 2nd edition rules because that would have meant writing off important rules like the link team rules.
all together meant that the revision of the remaining 2nd edition rules that they had the resources to do (the errata/FAQ that came out with the release) would end up being inadequate.

I mean, if you want to pick a fight in the rules forum, there's a list of un-FAQ'd Human Sphere rules like AI Beacon or G:Servant/G:Synchronized that have all been implicitly written under the 2nd edition rules assumptions that aren't valid in 3rd edition any more.

I think the success of N3 and Icestorm caught them by surprise a little and they have been working to catch up since.
An improved game system,
Implementing improved modelling/production process
Moving to new facilities
Adding to the miniatures range
Updating the free content such as Army V and the Wiki
And a steady trickle of articles and features on the Homepage and the next books in development shows a growing company going in the right direction to me.

It feels like a game worth investing my time in

On the flip side I haven't been as affected by the impact of N3 on HS and Paradiso as I mainly play Vanilla Yu Jing

To speak on the OP's question regarding popularity of Infinity. I can only speak on my area and on my perspective of a new player. I saw a single demo game, and knew this was the game for me. There are so many reasons, but the tactical appeal, time it takes to play and cost to play alone sold me very quick on Infinity.

No longer do I have to haul 3 cases full of figs across the city carrying $1800 worth of models to play a 6 hour game. I can now stop by my local store, carrying my army in a shoe box and play a 45 minute game.

Not to mention that I bought an Ariadna army, terrain and a game mat for the price of a small army with my previous hobby. I now have 2 other friends starting out in Infinity and am still seeing new people join in the short time I have been playing. I think this game is catching on very fast and will continue to grow steadily.

Honestly, if you wanted a streamlined, convenient, constantly updated, logically-released and supported game, play Dota or League of Legends, or X-Wing / Kromaster on the tabletop.

I think the sheer utter bloody intractability of Infinity is part of its charm.

It's difficult to find models and it's difficult to get them arrive on time.
It's difficult to find an official release date for updates and it's difficult to get models released on schedule per month.
It's difficult to assemble the models and it's incredibly difficult to paint them well.
It's difficult to learn the ruleset and difficult not to keep referring to the wiki when actually playing.
It's difficult to buy and paint enough terrain and it's difficult to set terrain up.
It's difficult to master the game and it's difficult to get to the point where there aren't any surprises.

The only easy thing so far is making a list and checking it (Army V is a godsend) but even Army V doesn't include pictures of models so new players have no idea what unit symbol corresponds to what.

Infinity is a difficult game, not for the casual or the undetermined. Fortunately, it's a rewarding sort of difficulty.

Once you accept that it isn't going to be a simple or easy game to play, everything becomes copacetic.

Wow, that read like a complete GW apologist's way of thinking.

"Infinity is SOOO EXTREEEEME that you gotta learn to take punishment to play this! If you can't, you're not gentleMANly enough to play!"

The reality is, everything CB has done has been to make it easier to get into and work continues on that front.

Delivery and stocking issues are just a normal problem for anything that's popular, but with slow production and overseas shipping.

Model assembly problems are also a legitimate issue. It's gotten better from the old days of wondering whether that's a piece of flash or an antennae, and it's something they'll have to continue to improve on via designing better cuts on models. Seeing it as some kind of selling point or badge of honor sounds more like stockholm syndrome.

Sure, there's a learning curve to any game, and Infinity's learning curve is steeper, but that doesn't mean you should just overlook the issues. You can still criticize where appropriate and praise where appropriate.

Infinity is a good game despite some problems, it can take the criticism.

The other thing to remember is that while it may be an issue to have variance of scale in your collection and not ideal, it is at least only an aesthetic consideration as the system uses silhouettes from a gaming perspective.

 Groundworks wrote:
The other thing to remember is that while it may be an issue to have variance of scale in your collection and not ideal, it is at least only an aesthetic consideration as the system uses silhouettes from a gaming perspective.

Speaking of silhouettes...

Who asked for them? Nobody I know asked for them. They were just such a useless addition to the game. The "official line" was that they were added to allow sculptors more freedom in sculpts--but that clearly hasn't happened.

From the reading of the offical Infinity board during N2, about half the forum. I would also add any one that complained about the pose. But, one of the biggest reason is people claiming you can't see him because he is crouched down. While the same unit but different pose was clearly in LoF.

Yeah. Multiple 100+ post threads on LoF rules, multiple threads either suggesting that cylinders be used instead, or that several US tournaments used cylinders anyway. It was so common it even had it's own term, the 'magic cylinder' approach.

My take on the changes- played a lot in V2 stopped for a over a year+ came back in V3 and have been playing again a fair amount the last 3-4 months.

silhouettes= good with the dynamic pose of many models they are needed....many cases its easy to see if you have LoS sometimes not so obvious.

Even with the scale changes don't think its that bad as the older ones even tho abit smaller still look fine on the table with new models IMO. Only a couple offenders like Azril are really bad an I just use that as a counts as Djban HMG now and my friends have been fine with it.

The rules IMO need more streamlining....to many if thens.....even after playing again about once a week for months now we are still having rules issues/clarifications almost every game. An I think both of us are decently read up the rules but with a big book, the wiki, and changes from V2 is a lot to keep up with. Almost to much.....thus my comment on becoming abit more streamline.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Speaking of silhouettes...

Who asked for them? Nobody I know asked for them. They were just such a useless addition to the game. The "official line" was that they were added to allow sculptors more freedom in sculpts--but that clearly hasn't happened.

How many posts have you made complaining about scale creep in Infinity?

Scale creep alone is reasonable justification for including silhouettes - you avoid the 40k problem where older, smaller models are easier to hide. Silhouettes far from useless.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Speaking of silhouettes...

Who asked for them? Nobody I know asked for them. They were just such a useless addition to the game. The "official line" was that they were added to allow sculptors more freedom in sculpts--but that clearly hasn't happened.

How many posts have you made complaining about scale creep in Infinity?

Scale creep alone is reasonable justification for including silhouettes - you avoid the 40k problem where older, smaller models are easier to hide. Silhouettes far from useless.

With any game that involves LoS you need to use fixed volume silhouettes to have balance or you end up with the GW problem of modeling for advantage or just the general pose screwing certain miniatures over and making others super strong.

It simplifies things and allows for smooth gameplay.

I think it's one of those things that in casual games you don't really bother with (or at least I don't).

But, in tournaments it definitely helps remove some of the ambiguity.

I clambored for Silouettes. Nearly all modern minis games use them, and for good reason: You no longer have arbitrary posing determine a game aspect (LoS) which can be extremely impactful.

For example, look at the old Backflipping Shaolin Monk: Huge area presence, much larger than a normal infantryman. Versus the 'sitting' Nisse sniper, who apparently then is always shorter than their non-sniper counterparts. How do you handle LOS to say, the crawling Regular, versus the Hungies who are flailing their arms around?

All of which are supposed to be the same sized units, but have dramatically different presences on the board due to differences in their pose.

 Pacific wrote:
I think it's one of those things that in casual games you don't really bother with (or at least I don't).

But, in tournaments it definitely helps remove some of the ambiguity.

Comes up plenty in our friendly games. When you've got super dynamic models like Bran de castro or crouching models like the Hunzakut LGL or Djanbazan sniper, knowing how big they actually are is very helpful.

Of course, the ironic part is since introducing silhouettes to combat dynamic models and LOS, they're moving to less dynamic models.

Fun fact: the Meteor Zond's model is almost totally outside of it's own S3 silhouette

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

It's difficult to ...

I generally find that the more difficult something is to do (or achieve) the more rewarding I find it.
I find Infinity a more rewarding game than the arms race that is 40k or the c-c-c-c-c-combo-breakers of Hordemachine.

Stuff that's given to me on a platter, is something that has no value.

I've all but given up. I mostly played tournaments and local leagues but the last tournament left a sour taste in my mouth.

Infinity seems to come down to who has read the latest FAQ (the rules are quite messy) and who can cram the most orders into their list.

I was excited for N3 but after about 3 tournaments I've given up, the community has seemed to become quite gamey by and large.

I way prefer the concept of unit volumes to true-line-of-sight. The idea that some figures are permanently crouching and therefore easier to hide behind things is really stupid.