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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/04 09:19:16
Subject: What was the biggest mistake GW made in 2015 as a company?
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Lit By the Flames of Prospero
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The implementation of AOS, the game itself is a good idea but it should have been released alongside WHFB instead of totally replacing it in my opinion.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/04 10:55:17
Subject: What was the biggest mistake GW made in 2015 as a company?
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Frenzied Berserker Terminator
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Not doing any bloody marketing or market research, same biggest mistake as every year. This is the source that all other mistakes stem from.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/04 11:33:54
Subject: What was the biggest mistake GW made in 2015 as a company?
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Joined the Military for Authentic Experience
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AoS was my worst and my best. Best, because there are some genuinely good ideas in there (making the game accessible and easy to get into with free rules, flexible force building and a skirmish rules set).
Worst, because these good ideas are ruined by implementation problems like the lack of any sort of balancing mechanism (if I want to play narrative battles, I can play Dungeons and Dragons), the destruction of a beloved fantasy setting and it's replacement with something which is far less compelling, and the scale creep on newer models.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/04 14:58:04
Subject: What was the biggest mistake GW made in 2015 as a company?
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Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator
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Da Boss wrote:AoS was my worst and my best. Best, because there are some genuinely good ideas in there (making the game accessible and easy to get into with free rules, flexible force building and a skirmish rules set).
Worst, because these good ideas are ruined by implementation problems like the lack of any sort of balancing mechanism (if I want to play narrative battles, I can play Dungeons and Dragons), the destruction of a beloved fantasy setting and it's replacement with something which is far less compelling, and the scale creep on newer models.
I agree on both sides. It would be rather easy to include some balancing mechanism. But since GW is a just miniature producing company, they leave the gaming aspect to the customers.
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Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a " " I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/04 15:29:57
Subject: Re:What was the biggest mistake GW made in 2015 as a company?
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Nasty Nob
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I think AoS was the biggest mistake, but not just because they killed the Old World.
That was a horrendously boneheaded decision (you stopped making Necromunda, but didn't blow up the planet!) for many, many reasons in and of itself. Why destroy an entire setting just because you don't want to develop any more games in it? Especially when you are still selling tons of material related to that setting!
But it was also compounded by the unimaginative release of Age of Sigmar. GW puts out a new fantasy setting, set TENS OF THOUSANDS OF YEARS after their old fantasy setting.
Hey, look! Sigmar is still there, still the same dude. He has new followers, but they are still fighting with pointed sticks and clubs. Still fighting Khorne worshippers with axes--they never figured out any new equipment in 10,000 years. Nagash is still around. Oh, hey, Archaon is still here too! Lizardmen are around and haven't changed at all! Hey, look, slayers, and they still look the same and are still using the same tech!
Why create a new fantasy setting so far removed in space and time from the old one, only to use the same characters, equipment, and esthetics? Why deliberately create such a complete break from the old setting, and then feature the same conflicts?
Imagine if the new Star Wars had been set 10,000 years after the defeat of the Empire, but still featured Han, Chewie, and Tie Fighters.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/04 15:56:11
Subject: Re:What was the biggest mistake GW made in 2015 as a company?
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Killer Klaivex
The dark behind the eyes.
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Da Butcha wrote:But it was also compounded by the unimaginative release of Age of Sigmar. GW puts out a new fantasy setting, set TENS OF THOUSANDS OF YEARS after their old fantasy setting.
Hey, look! Sigmar is still there, still the same dude. He has new followers, but they are still fighting with pointed sticks and clubs. Still fighting Khorne worshippers with axes--they never figured out any new equipment in 10,000 years. Nagash is still around. Oh, hey, Archaon is still here too! Lizardmen are around and haven't changed at all! Hey, look, slayers, and they still look the same and are still using the same tech!
Why create a new fantasy setting so far removed in space and time from the old one, only to use the same characters, equipment, and esthetics? Why deliberately create such a complete break from the old setting, and then feature the same conflicts?
That's a really good point.
The sad thing is, there were so many other possibilities even if you just set it 500 or 1000 years later (I mean, just think how far we advanced since Medieval times). Dwarves and men already had various gunpowder stuff, along with Steam-horses and tanks. Chaos Dwarves and (to a lesser extent) Warriors of Chaos had some weird daemon-y cannons, Skaven had all their warpstone powered stuff. it just seems like there's so much they could have done in terms of advancing and building on that technology. e.g. perhaps humans have more advanced tanks and machines, and their various spears and swords have been replaced entirely with rifles and bayonets.
Then, in the face of this, you have races which might be slower and/or more reluctant to advance. Would Tomb Kings be willing to advance their technology? Would Vampires be able to raise infantry capable of using rifles? What about races like High Elves and Lizardmen? Would they advance in technology? And, if not, would their magic be sufficient to allow them to keep pace? Would races like these need to use more magic to keep up? And, if so, would this have any consequences?
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blood reaper wrote:I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote:Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote:GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
Andilus Greatsword wrote:
"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"
Akiasura wrote:I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
insaniak wrote:
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/04 16:05:07
Subject: Re:What was the biggest mistake GW made in 2015 as a company?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Da Butcha wrote:I think AoS was the biggest mistake, but not just because they killed the Old World.
That was a horrendously boneheaded decision (you stopped making Necromunda, but didn't blow up the planet!) for many, many reasons in and of itself. Why destroy an entire setting just because you don't want to develop any more games in it? Especially when you are still selling tons of material related to that setting!
But it was also compounded by the unimaginative release of Age of Sigmar. GW puts out a new fantasy setting, set TENS OF THOUSANDS OF YEARS after their old fantasy setting.
Hey, look! Sigmar is still there, still the same dude. He has new followers, but they are still fighting with pointed sticks and clubs. Still fighting Khorne worshippers with axes--they never figured out any new equipment in 10,000 years. Nagash is still around. Oh, hey, Archaon is still here too! Lizardmen are around and haven't changed at all! Hey, look, slayers, and they still look the same and are still using the same tech!
Why create a new fantasy setting so far removed in space and time from the old one, only to use the same characters, equipment, and esthetics? Why deliberately create such a complete break from the old setting, and then feature the same conflicts?
Imagine if the new Star Wars had been set 10,000 years after the defeat of the Empire, but still featured Han, Chewie, and Tie Fighters.
How do you like The Tolkien universe?
You could make the exact same compaints about Tolkiens universe as your above post does about GWs fantasy universe as Lord of the Rings is set 3000 years after Isildur cut the ring of power off of Saurons hand.
It's a standard stereotype in a fantasy setting that even if thousands of years pass, the world sort of stays the same, with the same conflicts and what nots. Why this surprises you, I do not understand.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/04 16:12:45
Subject: Re:What was the biggest mistake GW made in 2015 as a company?
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Killer Klaivex
The dark behind the eyes.
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Spiky Norman wrote:How do you like The Tolkien universe?
You could make the exact same compaints about Tolkiens universe as your above post does about GWs fantasy universe as Lord of the Rings is set 3000 years after Isildur cut the ring of power off of Saurons hand.
I'm not an expect on the LotR universe, but wasn't that time relatively peaceful? I mean, you could at least make the argument that there wasn't a pressing need to advance. Now, granted, you'd still expect a decent amount of advancement, but it's at least more excusable than for 40k. I mean, the inhabitants of a world in constant war would be looking for every advancement possible, anything that could give them even a slight edge over their many foes.
Spiky Norman wrote:
It's a standard stereotype in a fantasy setting that even if thousands of years pass, the world sort of stays the same, with the same conflicts and what nots.
You know that's not a point in their favour, right?
What you're basically saying is that GW couldn't give a damn about their setting, about the world they created, about how wars advance technology and are instead falling back on the big book of fantasy cliches and lazy writing.
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blood reaper wrote:I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote:Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote:GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
Andilus Greatsword wrote:
"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"
Akiasura wrote:I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
insaniak wrote:
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/04 17:15:30
Subject: Re:What was the biggest mistake GW made in 2015 as a company?
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Posts with Authority
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Da Butcha wrote:
Imagine if the new Star Wars had been set 10,000 years after the defeat of the Empire, but still featured Han, Chewie, and Tie Fighters. 
Given how Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher looked, I thought it was.
Spiky Norman wrote:
You could make the exact same compaints about Tolkiens universe as your above post does about GWs fantasy universe as Lord of the Rings is set 3000 years after Isildur cut the ring of power off of Saurons hand.
Difference being, perhaps, that Arda wasn't blown up after the War of the Last Alliance, which would make the facts that physical eldar (no, not those eldar), hobbits and uruks somehow still exist, virtually unchanged, still fighting the same fight, a bit less of a headscratcher.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/04 17:18:02
Subject: Re:What was the biggest mistake GW made in 2015 as a company?
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Ancient Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnought
I... actually don't know. Help?
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vipoid wrote:
You know what? This would actually be a genius idea.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/04 18:00:15
Subject: Re:What was the biggest mistake GW made in 2015 as a company?
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Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus
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The implementation of AOS, the game itself is a good idea but it should have been released alongside WHFB instead of totally replacing it in my opinion.
I feel sort of similar to this. IMO, they clearly needed to do something about Fantasy. By most accounts, it wasn't making them money and was showing all downward trends (again - that's just according to what we've all "heard" on the internet but it kind of makes sense), so yeah, something needed to give.
Many felt that the issue with Fantasy was that it was, in fact, Fantasy as opposed to a sic-fi setting like 40k. However, if you look around at other places in the industry, there are multiple examples of Fantasy based, non- sc-fi games doing fairly well. Admittedly the companies making those games don't have the overhead of a GW, nor the stock holders to please but they are successful non-the-less. On top of that, Fantasy's replacement is still ... basically a "Fantasy" bad setting so that whole theory is out the window.
That leaves what I think are the real reasons. First there's cost; cost in terms of actual money, cost in terms of time spent building/painting, and cost spent in rules that many seemed to dislike. Add to that how high the barrier to entry could be for Warhammer Fantasy and you just have a recipe for disaster.
The End Times campaign showed that, when done right, the existing players will buy new Fantasy merchandise. They also showed that when GW puts it's mind to it, it come up with some cool stuff (the ultimate destruction of the Old World not withstanding). In my opinion, what they should have done was this:
1. Use the End Times campaign to put an end to the current edition. Kill off some characters if you must. Make some dramatic changes to the typography of the setting if you need to, but ultimately, use it to bring in a new edition. Do NOT destroy the setting.
2. Keep everything in Fantasy on "square bases"
3. Make sure everything in " AoS" fits in the new edition of Warhammer Fantasy
4. Introduce AoS as an introduction game to the new edition: "Here's the intro set of rules for free", and "you can start a force for very little cost and play AoS rules until you have enough models to play the full "Warhammer Fantasy Battle Rules" which can be found in this rulebook for purchase at your local LGS".
5. Fix all the rules issues players had with the latest edition
6. Profit.
This solution would have given them an avenue to significantly lower the barrier for entry into Fantasy while also allowing them to not have to completely scrap everything. It would also have given them a skirmish style version of Fantasy that could quickly scale up to work in actual Fantasy. So yeah, I feel like the way they implemented AoS was the biggest flub.
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Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/04 18:32:13
Subject: Re:What was the biggest mistake GW made in 2015 as a company?
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Posts with Authority
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I feel that people are giving GW a bit too much credit, even in saying that AoS was a good idea, badly implemented. WFB may have been on the ropes, and...
... but that was a no-brainer. It was not a 'good idea' in itself to fix the dying WFB, it was obvious. And even though all evidence points to GW collectively having no brain anyway, in terms of market research specifically, it somehow filtered down to them that folk wished they would reduce the startup costs for the game. (That being just one problem with the last couple of editions of WFB)
That would be a good thing, but it wasn't a good idea, existing in a vacuum. It was only one part of an overall idea. The other parts? The 'implementations'?
They implemented the destruction of the old world. Someone had the idea to destroy the old world.
They implemented the tossing out of points values or any other discernable, balanced method of structuring forces. Someone had the idea of tossing out points values and any other discernable, balanced method of structuring forces.
They implemented the replacement of the core rules with four pages of bupkis, to be padded out with yet more special, arbitrary rules. Someone had the idea of replacing the core rules with four pages of bupkis, to be padded out with yet more special, arbitrary rules.
And so on, and so on, etc. You know the words. See where I'm going with this? In the whole bad idea morass of AoS, how does one solitary, almost neutral point, turn it into a good idea?
A smaller game, with smaller startup costs, could've been a good idea. AoS was not it.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/04 18:33:45
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/04 18:39:24
Subject: Re:What was the biggest mistake GW made in 2015 as a company?
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Killer Klaivex
The dark behind the eyes.
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Vermis wrote:Someone had the idea of tossing out points values and any other discernable, balanced method of structuring forces.
£10 on that someone being Jervis.
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blood reaper wrote:I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote:Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote:GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
Andilus Greatsword wrote:
"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"
Akiasura wrote:I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.
insaniak wrote:
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/04 18:58:56
Subject: What was the biggest mistake GW made in 2015 as a company?
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Ultramarine Master with Gauntlets of Macragge
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I think the way Age of Sigmar was handled was the problem. If it released as a separate game and was there as a skirmish alternative to Fantasy as opposed to its sole replacement, that would have been really nice. You'd get Fantasy players trying AoS, AoS players trying Fantasy, and you'd still be able to channel sales of WHFB related products (such as the upcoming Total War game) back into Fantasy sales.
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Check out my Youtube channel!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/04 19:21:15
Subject: Re:What was the biggest mistake GW made in 2015 as a company?
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Dakka Veteran
Miles City, MT
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I would say the biggest mistake wasn't one mistake but a combination of them.
Killing Fantasy
Age of Sigmar
Less options in some new kits and making them mono pose (looking at you space marine commander)
Increased kit prices
limited edition kits with special rules
not balancing the game
lack of support for certain armies
No new Sisters of Battle
Cult Mechanicus and Skitarii not a single codex/army (and no CAD or formation with objective secured)
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Twinkle, Twinkle little star.
I ran over your Wave Serpents with my car. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/04 19:28:44
Subject: Re:What was the biggest mistake GW made in 2015 as a company?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Vermis wrote:
They implemented the tossing out of points values or any other discernable, balanced method of structuring forces. Someone had the idea of tossing out points values and any other discernable, balanced method of structuring forces.
with the exception of organising ahead of time, and discussing and coming to terms with your opponent as to what would be cool to put down in the context of a cool and thematic scenario. And then run with it from there. Its about diy gaming. It's a shift in perception for sure, but it's not necessarily bad, in and of itself. Hidtorical players have been doing this for decades.The problem is with this approach, while it can be immensely fun and rewarding, and while it can work with like minded folks in a 'basemeant' setting, it's value for pick up games and tourneys is a lot less. But then, one can argue that gw isn't interested in tourneys, and players should organise themselves a bit better. I do think the biggest problem however is that it's a style of gaming that a lot of people aren't familiar with, and because of that, aren't interested in.
As an aside, do forces 'need' to be balanced? Don't get me wrong - it definitely helps, and it's definitely a good thing (and something that I will look for in a Wargame, before you get any ideas  ), especially in pick up games, but I'm just as interested in an 'interesting' scenario as I am in a perfectly balanced scenario. A game based on thermopaly will result in the Spartans dying regardless. 'Winning' for them is academic, they're all dead after all. But you can still build it and run it as an 'interesting' scenario and see how well you can hold off the Persians for a time.
Vermis wrote:I
They implemented the replacement of the core rules with four pages of bupkis, to be padded out with yet more special, arbitrary rules. Someone had the idea of replacing the core rules with four pages of bupkis, to be padded out with yet more special, arbitrary rules.
Those four pages of rules are a huge plus to people too though. Don't get me wrong, I like my wargames to be intricate, and with lots of moving parts, but this same thing will make others run a mile. Some people like the simplicity of it, along with thr war scrolls and whatnot.
Vermis wrote:
And so on, and so on, etc. You know the words. See where I'm going with this? In the whole bad idea morass of AoS, how does one solitary, almost neutral point, turn it into a good idea?
What's bad to you or I isn't bad to someone else though.
Vermis wrote:
A smaller game, with smaller startup costs, could've been a good idea. AoS was not it.
I dunno. I think Aos has game. It's not a game for me, personally and I'll explain my reasonings if you wish. But I think it caters to very 'specialised' tastes, and while it has merit, isn't necessarily a good replacement for the game that it replaced, and the people who that game appealed to. It certainly isn't the gsme that s lot of people were looking for, but considering that, it has drawn its adherents. Whether Aos can grab enough of a player pool to become somewhat self sustaining in the long term however, or whether it doesn't, and gw takes it out the back, and puts a bullet in it and buries it next to wfb is anyone's guess.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/04 19:30:26
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/04 19:31:42
Subject: Re:What was the biggest mistake GW made in 2015 as a company?
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Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus
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It was not a 'good idea' in itself to fix the dying WFB, it was obvious.
It was, apparently not so obvious as we may have wished though. GW didn't actually even try to "fix" the dying WFB. They killed it. Gone. Dead. Buried. That's the thing. As you say, "A smaller game, with smaller startup costs, could've been a good idea." It certainly would have been, and AoS COULD have been it. AoS in and of itself, the "idea" of AoS, is not what was bad. The fact that they annihilated a gaming legend in WFB, and replaced it with a sad, strange, half-thought of a game in AoS was the mistake.
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Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/04 19:50:46
Subject: Re:What was the biggest mistake GW made in 2015 as a company?
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Posts with Authority
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vipoid wrote: Vermis wrote:Someone had the idea of tossing out points values and any other discernable, balanced method of structuring forces.
£10 on that someone being Jervis.
That... would not surprise me.
The other thing about getting rid of points is that it drastically cuts down on the time GW might otherwise have to spend on balancing forces... or at least get rid of the folks growling that GW wasn't spending the time needed to balance those forces.
The Auld Grump
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Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/04 20:07:52
Subject: Re:What was the biggest mistake GW made in 2015 as a company?
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Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus
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TheAuldGrump
The other thing about getting rid of points is that it drastically cuts down on the time GW might otherwise have to spend on balancing forces... or at least get rid of the folks growling that GW wasn't spending the time needed to balance those forces.
Wow. I never even stopped to think about that, but you're right. With points values they at least had to pretend to try and keep things within a certain range. There was at least an incentive/precedent to keep things semi-balanced, and even with all that, they still botched the balance horribly on a few things. Now they've removed the one mechanic that forced them to even THINK about balance. Ugh.
With that in mind, it will be really interesting to see where AoS ends up in the next year or two ...
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Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/04 20:37:30
Subject: What was the biggest mistake GW made in 2015 as a company?
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Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker
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Not calling AoS "Warhammer Fantasy: Age of Sigmar"
This would have been enough to appease the masses into thinking that warhammer fantasy wasn't thrown in the trash bin.
Also, I would have started warhammer fantasy: Age of Sigmar on a smaller scale. I'm still not sure what the struggles of the comman man are in this new age which makes it hard to relate to the setting.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/04 20:54:20
Subject: Re:What was the biggest mistake GW made in 2015 as a company?
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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TheAuldGrump wrote: vipoid wrote: Vermis wrote:Someone had the idea of tossing out points values and any other discernable, balanced method of structuring forces.
£10 on that someone being Jervis.
That... would not surprise me.
The other thing about getting rid of points is that it drastically cuts down on the time GW might otherwise have to spend on balancing forces... or at least get rid of the folks growling that GW wasn't spending the time needed to balance those forces.
The Auld Grump
If it wasn't for the massive number of fiddly little special rules, it would be simple to design an algorithm to calculate the points value of an AoS unit.
The special rules are increasingly a problem. Like at the new Dwarfadin FyreSlayers. They have a couple of rules like if they are within 12 inches of a leader and roll a 3+ on To Hit, then one hit becomes Mortal, or something. (The details are too tedious to bother to remember.)
This kind of "Gotta Catch 'Em All" approach is fantastic for 10 year old boys who delight in Top Trumps cards and the like. And to be fair, there are a lot of 10 year old boys in the world. It's just that everyone isn't a 10 year old boy and maybe a game could actually not have to primarily appeal to them by its peripheral mechanisms.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/04 21:51:13
Subject: Re:What was the biggest mistake GW made in 2015 as a company?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Tycho wrote:TheAuldGrump
The other thing about getting rid of points is that it drastically cuts down on the time GW might otherwise have to spend on balancing forces... or at least get rid of the folks growling that GW wasn't spending the time needed to balance those forces.
Wow. I never even stopped to think about that, but you're right. With points values they at least had to pretend to try and keep things within a certain range. There was at least an incentive/precedent to keep things semi-balanced, and even with all that, they still botched the balance horribly on a few things. Now they've removed the one mechanic that forced them to even THINK about balance. Ugh.
Yup.
From one PoV, it makes sense: let the players decide, and let them play the game they want to play. Whatever we do is going to be wrong to some people. So let them do it.Let them make the 'balance' in their games that they are so earnest about. We should not interfere. (And by the way, we save on development costs and wasted time, and put all our effort into productive use of our minions in designing toy soldiers!) at first glance, kind of fair enough. I suppose.
The problem with this approach is not very one wants to deal with the the newly designed and unofficial 'negotiation phase' of the game. Not everyone wants a game where the basic tenet is 'compromise with your opponent, and give him a veto over your stuff in terms of what's acceptable or not'. Not everyone wants a game where what they can put on the tabletop depends almost entirely on their opponent acquiescing and enabling them and saying 'yeah that's cool'. Thry might not even be the villains in the story either. I enjoy diy gaming immensely, love building my scenarios and crafting a story into the objectives and building 'appropriate' army lists that act as good match ups with each other and connect and fit in with the story, but it takes a lot of effort, and frankly, I don't want to do it all the time as a basic requirement of my games.There is great value in being able to play 'right out of the box', and if this isn't catered to, people won't 'deal with' or 'adapt' the product, they'll just say 'nah, this gsme isn't for me' and walk away.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/05 01:32:44
Subject: Re:What was the biggest mistake GW made in 2015 as a company?
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Stoic Grail Knight
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Another big mistake with the AOS release, as I'm noticing it today with the first images of the Fireslayers (I'm not using the "kewl" misspelling), is the upsizing of the range as a whole. I just don't see the value in separating out the game's scale from the existing Fantasy stuff. It almost seems like an attempt to drag people into buying new miniatures- not because they look better, but because they're out-of-sync with everything else.
This is certainly not the biggest issue with AOS, but I think it compounds with all the others to give off a "...why?" impression of the game overall.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/05 01:34:00
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/05 05:44:00
Subject: Re:What was the biggest mistake GW made in 2015 as a company?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Tycho wrote:TheAuldGrump
The other thing about getting rid of points is that it drastically cuts down on the time GW might otherwise have to spend on balancing forces... or at least get rid of the folks growling that GW wasn't spending the time needed to balance those forces.
Wow. I never even stopped to think about that, but you're right. With points values they at least had to pretend to try and keep things within a certain range. There was at least an incentive/precedent to keep things semi-balanced, and even with all that, they still botched the balance horribly on a few things. Now they've removed the one mechanic that forced them to even THINK about balance. Ugh.
With that in mind, it will be really interesting to see where AoS ends up in the next year or two ...
Well, it's not like they have made a huge effort to balance things since around 5th ed WFB or 3rd ed 40k.
Anybody who played WFB in 7th edition with its super-imposed tiers shows just how wonky their army books get.
40k 3rd power crept special codexes to a ridiculous level with Blood Angels and Space Wolves going over the top as prime examples.
And that repeated in 4th and 5th. Skaven in Mordheim were OP out the gate despite their points values.
I don't think GW have put serious effort into balancing things points-wise for at least 15 years.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/05 06:45:11
Subject: What was the biggest mistake GW made in 2015 as a company?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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The biggest mistake was GW not fully committing to the AoS concept by radically streamlining unit rules. AoS Battlescrolls are about 3x more complex than they should be. Had GW simplified the units like the core rules, AoS would be truly outstanding, instead of merely the best idea GW's had in a long time.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/05 07:12:43
Subject: What was the biggest mistake GW made in 2015 as a company?
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Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer
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Age of Sigmar might have been better received if it had been a supplement to, instead of a replacement of Warhammer. A sort of revised Mordheim instead of replacement for a mass battle system.
So yeah, blowing up the old World ranks as their #1 cock-up. Hasbro/WotC did the same exact thing with 4E, and White Wolf with their World of Darkness line.
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It never ends well |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/05 07:16:25
Subject: Re:What was the biggest mistake GW made in 2015 as a company?
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Grumpy Longbeard
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Not having some army building system in AoS. Not having a standard army of some kind makes it harder to play pick up games, play outside of your group or to build a new group.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/05 08:58:06
Subject: Re:What was the biggest mistake GW made in 2015 as a company?
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Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant
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I think we'll see WFB back in 2017 at the latest. Biggest reason is that KoW is stealing long time WFB players rather than them converting to AoS as planned.
AoS is just completely the wrong step for somebody with decades invested in their army and the WFB rules. I'd wish they'd just punted the WFB rules to FW or FFG rather than kill it.
The fact that Total Warhammer exists suggests that the move to kill WFB came out of nowhere, otherwise it'd be Total AoS.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/05 09:47:34
Subject: What was the biggest mistake GW made in 2015 as a company?
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Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator
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JohnHwangDD wrote:The biggest mistake was GW not fully committing to the AoS concept by radically streamlining unit rules. AoS Battlescrolls are about 3x more complex than they should be. Had GW simplified the units like the core rules, AoS would be truly outstanding, instead of merely the best idea GW's had in a long time.
Well, I think the battle scrolls are fine. We didn't have problems using them so far.
The real issues are the lack of balancing and lack of proper missions. Just throwing the units into the centre into a grand melee isn't enough.
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Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a " " I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/05 09:49:19
Subject: What was the biggest mistake GW made in 2015 as a company?
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Ancient Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnought
I... actually don't know. Help?
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Wouldn't AoS be perfect as an introduction or expansion to WHFB? Like someone before me said, why not just go forward in time or something?
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