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2016/01/07 09:47:50
Subject: Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
Because they're the ones who negotiated for it in the first place. It's not like a US citizen walked up to France or Mexico and paid for the land. The US government paid/won it.
Land is always owned by someone. It's not just spontaneously owned out of nothing.
To be blunt, in the western concept, land was owned first by whoever was strong enough to grab it, and then ownership was passed down within socio-legal systems that vary somewhat depending on the country, and include feudatory grants, ancient rights, conquest, squatting, purchase, commons, enclosures, and other forms of transfer or expropriation.
In some places like Australia and the Matto Grasso, there was no land ownership in the western sense because there was so much more land than people that it didn't make any difference.
The Bundys' complaints can be seen as a form of social/political pressure to change the land ownership in their specific favour by mobilising public opinion for changes in the law.
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
2016/01/07 11:07:35
Subject: Re:Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2016/01/07 12:32:52
Subject: Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
Bromsy wrote: The land belongs to anyone with the strength to take it. Everything else is just lawyer talkin'
I see we're citing Native Peoples v. Winchester
Too dark?
Not really. He later went on and became one of the last Samurai's of Japan
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
2016/01/07 13:50:32
Subject: Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
Land ownership is not really a western concept. Territory even in North America has always existed as long as people were here. It gets drilled into our heads in grade school and cheesy tourist traps that Native Americans tribes were a peaceful people and one with the land and all that jive. Its BS. Tribes warred with each other constantly. The British and French had no issues getting native allies as it gave those native tribes a chance to go after their long time enemies backed up by powerful new technology. NA also had similar destructive farming techniques as they have down in South America currently with the slash and burning of the rainforests. A Spanish ship a couple decades prior to real colonization of NA noted in its log the shores were constantly hazy with smoke from millions of cook and forest fires from the natives. Most of whom were wiped out over the continent by a black plague-like disease before Europeans landed leaving massive fields already relatively cleared and ready to be occupied and farmed. Made for easy occupation and the invasion vs the remnants of the once mega population of native Americans was quick although not painless.
I read an article this morning about the hold off. Apparently in 1996 after the disasters of Ruby Ridge and Waco the FBI changed its tactics when dealing with cases like this. They found building up a huge military-like presence caused an escalation in the incident(duh!) and since then has taken a more hands off approach. This has worked in the few sieges since with no loss of life. I think the longest successful siege was 81 days. That said, I agree with the article that somewhere nearby the FBI has set up a mock up of the facility and using thermal data has role players carrying out what the people inside are doing while the tactical teams rehearse over and over how to go in, but that this is a last resort and they would rather just wait them out with minimal visible presence.
If you dont short hand your list, Im not reading it.
Example: Assault Intercessors- x5 -Thunder hammer and plasma pistol on sgt.
or Assault Terminators 3xTH/SS, 2xLCs
For the love of God, GW, get rid of reroll mechanics. ALL OF THEM!
2016/01/07 15:52:32
Subject: Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
Col. Dash wrote: Land ownership is not really a western concept. ...
Of course not, but the current situation in the USA inevitably is the product of western concepts of land ownership.
Vs. the Eastern concept? If I am not mistaken all of the Pacific Rim countries are currently in a tizzy because china is claiming ownership rights over a good bit of the Southeast Pacific.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2016/01/07 17:02:25
Subject: Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
There are more land law concepts that western and eastern. The point is that it's western concepts (largely British) that gave rise to the law of the USA that Bundy is disputing.
To be more accurate I think, Bundy is disputing that the range wars are over, that just because you see land doesn't mean it's automatically yours, and rule of law actually exists in the West now
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/07 17:08:09
So the Hammond's, who distanced themselves from the militia and reported in for extra jail time, after serving the original sentence.
Were law abiding enough to turn themselves in, but law breaking enough to do harm to a family member. Strange people.
This is from an unimpeachable source. ??
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
2016/01/08 01:00:34
Subject: Re:Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
loki old fart wrote: So the Hammond's, who distanced themselves from the militia and reported in for extra jail time, after serving the original sentence.
Were law abiding enough to turn themselves in, but law breaking enough to do harm to a family member. Strange people.
This is from an unimpeachable source. ??
A police report and a witness that was good enough to be used during their federal trials.
2016/01/08 02:24:20
Subject: Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
Kilkrazy wrote: There are more land law concepts that western and eastern. The point is that it's western concepts (largely British) that gave rise to the law of the USA that Bundy is disputing.
I prefer the Russian land law concepts myself. "All of your land are belong to Rus".
On a serious note, if those Hammond guys the guys in the building were 'defending' have reported in for jail anyways, then why are those guys still out in the woods? Shouldn't they be going home now to think about how occupying empty buildings in forests is not a good way of defending something?
Error 404: Interesting signature not found
2016/01/08 03:35:27
Subject: Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
LordofHats wrote: Because it was never about the Hammonds for them. The Hammonds were just the excuse to start the glorious revolution that exists in their heads.
In that case they can be charged under legal code 18 2384 and go to ADX Florence for 20 years (which is what I personally hope happens)
A libertarian that is bias against the federal government? Well color me surprised
You know that it is wise to listen to multiple parties, multiple sides of a story, and piece together the truth as best you can from facts.
Did you even bother listening to his video? Sure, there are PLENTY of things he says I do not agree with... The same could be said with every other human being on planet, heck, including myself!
But what he does do is state facts. He states court documents and he states statistics from the BLM organization itself.
I know this is going to sound insulting and condescending, but it would be wise as you grow older (I don't care if you're 17 or 70, we never stop growing and learning) to learn to relax, and listen to everyone around you. You'd be surprised at what you find/learn/etc.
In the end, from what court documents show, all this boils down to - The BML wants land, and they are throwing 2 men in jail for 5 years each over $100 in damages.
Ayn Rand "We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality"
2016/01/08 04:58:23
Subject: Re:Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
A libertarian that is bias against the federal government? Well color me surprised
You know that it is wise to listen to multiple parties, multiple sides of a story, and piece together the truth as best you can from facts.
Did you even bother listening to his video? Sure, there are PLENTY of things he says I do not agree with... The same could be said with every other human being on planet, heck, including myself!
But what he does do is state facts. He states court documents and he states statistics from the BLM organization itself.
I know this is going to sound insulting and condescending, but it would be wise as you grow older (I don't care if you're 17 or 70, we never stop growing and learning) to learn to relax, and listen to everyone around you. You'd be surprised at what you find/learn/etc.
In the end, from what court documents show, all this boils down to - The BML wants land, and they are throwing 2 men in jail for 5 years each over $100 in damages.
Yeah if you did any research on this guy you would know he has very little credibility and they way he tries to put out the "truth" its fairly obvious he is very biased
I'm pretty sure it cost a hell of a lot more to put out those fires than $100, and that's before getting to how they set a fire that threatened to trap firefighters between two fires (which I reiterate, one of which the Hammonds started after being explicitly told not to start fires). I'm also fairly certain poaching is a crime with a punishment much higher than $100.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/08 05:26:06
Title: Morale at Oregon Standoff Collapses After Militia Member Goes AWOL, Drinks Away Donation Money
Spoiler:
NEWSMorale at Oregon Standoff Collapses After Militia Member Goes AWOL, Drinks Away Donation MoneyDylan Hock | January 7, 2016
The week-long Oregon standoff at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, already the butt of many jokes, is already falling apart due to infighting between group members.
According to a Facebook video that he has since removed from his profile, Cai Irvin, one of the gunmen holding down the federal bird sanctuary, claimed that one of the “patriots” walked off the camp to stay in a hotel and drink away the donations he raked in to be part of the insurgency.
The man in question is identified as Joe O’Shaugnessy, otherwise known as “Capt. O,” allegedly a member of the Arizona militia. Capt. O had been arguing with others at the occupation and ended up checking into a motel room Wednesday night where other pseudo-supporters have been staying.
Infamous anti-Muslim organizer and fellow Arizonan militant John Ritzheimer, also present in Oregon for the standoff, went over to the motel to confirm O’Shaugnessy’s desertion. Ritzheimer found him drinking alcohol paid for with the donations given to him by fellow “patriots” wishing to support the effort, according to disabled National Guard member and group spokesperson Maureen Peltier.
“Ritzheimer did call me – he’s fething pissed, he’s mad, he’s upset. He told me to tell all of you that Joe O’Shaugnessy is a deserter and a coward,” Irvin said.
Since several of the militants have been seen in the local area dining at restaurants even as the standoff remains underway, the fact that Capt. O went to stay at a local motel wouldn’t have sparked too much surprise, nor indicate anything out of the ordinary was afoot. However, Ritzheimer’s message indicates O’Shaugnessy may be the second “deserter” among participants of the poorly-planned Oregon standoff. One of the insurgents who has already run off under the pressure is Brian “Buddha” Cavalier, who likely fled in shame after the media reported that he had lied about being a Marine, with the Marine Corps itself revealing that they had no record of his service.
O’Shaugnessy also argued with his fellow “revolutionaries,” taking issue with the fact that women and children are present at an occupation where the militants have been attempting to goad law enforcement into a gunfight to the death.
But despite the tiffs and miffs between the group and O’Shaugnessy, members of the militant group say they feel betrayed by Captain O, who had also been party to the standoff at the Bundy Ranch last year.
Having learned of Captain O’s recent fiery thirst, Irvin said:
“It’s like finding out there is no such thing as Santa. Come on, man.”
O’Shaugnessy, however, is not exactly wallowing in his crowdfunded beer. Instead, he’s written a small statement on his Facebook claiming the Malheur militants are now running a “smear campaign” on him, presumably for calling them out on the presence of women and children at a would-be gunfight and storming off. Captain O said:
“Because I have been vocal about not supporting the actions taken by the individuals inside the compound apparently they have desired to launch a smear campaign against me. Even though I am one of the only Patriots on the outside doing everything I can to try and prevent this from turning into another Wako [sic] And making sure to protect the safety of all involved. To what I say my reputation is sterling.”
With two prominent members already gone or seemingly ousted, it seems this standoff may end with a whimper rather than a bang.
Looks like one guy deserted when the public found out he had never been a Marine, because the Marine's said they have never heard of him.
Title: Official Member Of Trump Campaign Joins Oregon Militia
Spoiler:
The co-chairman of Donald Trump’s New Hampshire “Veterans for Trump” group has arrived in Burns, Oregon, to assist the small cadre of armed men who are seeking to provoke a standoff with federal officials there.
That not-quite-standoff began over the weekend when a handful of men led by Ammon Bundy decided to turn a much larger peaceful protest over a decision to send two ranchers back to jail for arson into an armed struggle. The group’s numbers are small – especially compared to the 300 who reportedly joined the peaceful protest of the re-sentencing – but they have now been reinforced by Jerry DeLemus, a former United States Marine living on the opposite side of the country.
Trump himself has said little about the situation in Oregon, following the pattern of most of the GOP primary candidates. But on Tuesday he seemed to tell The Hill it was time for the Bundy crew to pack it in and go home. “You have to maintain law and order, no matter what,” he said.
It is at least the second time DeLemus has ridden to the physical aid of a Bundy. When Ammon’s father Cliven had his cattle impounded by the Bureau of Land Management in 2014 over more than $1 million in unpaid fines and fees for his use of public lands, DeLemus and his son drove 41 hours in three days to come help.
The impromptu militia DeLemus helped lead in Bunkerville, NV, eventually pushed the agency to return Bundy’s cattle under threat of violence. “If they made one wrong move, every single BLM agent in that camp would’ve died,” another leader of the group named Ryan Payne bragged to the Missoula Independent later. “We had counter-sniper positions on their sniper positions. We had at least one guy – sometimes two guys – per BLM agent in there.”
DeLemus’ job in Bunkerville was “chief of security,” according to RawStory, which reports he was personally responsible for dismissing the members of the Bundy brigade who later went on to kill two police in Las Vegas before being killed themselves by other officers. He says he’s come to Oregon to help ensure the younger Bundys and their adherents find a peaceful resolution and leave the refuge safely.
In a Facebook post explaining his decision, he also warned that a military psychological operation was taking place. “We must be level headed and remember there is a psyops war happening as well and all who were at Bunkerville know well what I’m talking about,” DeLemus wrote.
When a GQ reporter asked the Granite State man in 2014 how he thought the Bunkerville standoff might end, he said there was a “good chance” that federal agents would return and kill every member of Bundy’s brigade, promising his crew would shoot back if it came to it. “And I’ll tell you what, they’ll have a bloody nose, and I’ll tell you what: the American people will rise up,” he said. “Go ahead.”
DeLemus told reporters from the conspiracy theory-driven Next News Network at the time that “there’s great risk we may not come home” from Bunkerville. And a year earlier in New Hampshire, he told a crowd of Tea Party types that “We are in a similar position our Founding Fathers found themselves in and their decision to stand was equally difficult.”
He also believes President Obama is secretly Muslim, according to a June 2014 Facebook post about the return of U.S. Army Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl after five years as a captive of the Taliban. (The opening sequence of the podcast Serial’s current run of episodes on Bergdahl features Trump’s voice saying, “Y’know in the old days deserters were shot,” to raucous applause.) “You are a race baiter and a sure sign of how little time America has left,” he wrote to the president in another post.
Looks like there are a lot of people worried about safety here, both inside and outside of the militia.
2016/01/08 06:23:31
Subject: Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
LordofHats wrote: To be more accurate I think, Bundy is disputing that the range wars are over, that just because you see land doesn't mean it's automatically yours, and rule of law actually exists in the West now
Well, it's also important to remember the immortal words of Mel Brooks and Andrew Bergman:
d-usa wrote: "When the Internet sends its people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're not sending you. They're sending posters that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing strawmen. They're bringing spam. They're trolls. And some, I assume, are good people."
2016/01/08 10:21:53
Subject: Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
Who could have foreseen that a loose group of individuals united by their defiance of formally constituted authority would tear itself apart by infighting and rebellion?
Oh snap things are getting more exciting as another group of militia have shown up to do security for the initial group that doesn't want them to squat where they are squatting.
[Bundy's Attorney]McFarlane said members of the original occupation are “alarmed” by the new arrivals.
“This was the last thing in the world they wanted to see happen,” MacFarlane told reporters. He stressed that Bundy didn’t request that the group come, and stressed their presence is unwanted.
Brandon Curtiss, leader of the Pacific Patriot Network, said the group will not be staying inside the refuge with the Bundy group, but will be “patrolling the perimeter,” according to the Oregonian.
The occupation of the bird sanctuary started last week, when Ammon Bundy, son of rancher Cliven Bundy, led the group there after a protest over the imprisonment of ranchers Dwight and Steven Hammond. The men have been sentenced to federal prison terms for setting fires on federal property. The Bundy group believes the ranchers’ rights are being violated and want locals to take control over the federal land they are occupying.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
2016/01/10 00:02:46
Subject: Re:Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon
Ahtman wrote: Oh snap things are getting more exciting as another group of militia have shown up to do security for the initial group that doesn't want them to squat where they are squatting.
[Bundy's Attorney]McFarlane said members of the original occupation are “alarmed” by the new arrivals.
“This was the last thing in the world they wanted to see happen,” MacFarlane told reporters. He stressed that Bundy didn’t request that the group come, and stressed their presence is unwanted.
Brandon Curtiss, leader of the Pacific Patriot Network, said the group will not be staying inside the refuge with the Bundy group, but will be “patrolling the perimeter,” according to the Oregonian.
The occupation of the bird sanctuary started last week, when Ammon Bundy, son of rancher Cliven Bundy, led the group there after a protest over the imprisonment of ranchers Dwight and Steven Hammond. The men have been sentenced to federal prison terms for setting fires on federal property. The Bundy group believes the ranchers’ rights are being violated and want locals to take control over the federal land they are occupying.
Could not make it all up...
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
2016/01/10 00:07:23
Subject: Domestic Terrorists Take Over Federal Building in Oregon