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On the plus side, IG can ally in Imperial Knights, and that's not so bad.

In fact, I just got a Knight Warden with all of the options. It's fast moving, durable, with Stomp and S(D) in HtH. It categorically outclasses 2 Leman Russ tanks for equivalent points. And it has the option for Skyfire or extra firepower yet again.

When the iconic vehicle of the IG is categorically inferior in this way, that says a lot about the Codex as a whole.


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 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Selym wrote:
I remember the days of 5E, where I could take the classic Russ tank, and my opponents wouldn't laugh at me.

I also remember tearing apart IG armies with CSM, because daemon princes back then were an actual threat.

5E was better, imo.

5th edition best edition.

Of the last 3 editions of 40k, absolutely, 5E was the best, hands down. By a huge margin. GW basically gakked the bed with 6E and doubled down with 7E.

However, 4E > 5E and 3E > 5E.

Herr Fairhair wrote:

Okay so I'very gathered you know alot about IG. So I have a question. You say that tanks have been nerfed, and the mobility of the IG is poor at best right now. What about the Elysian Drop Troops? I know they get Valks and Vendettas as transports, and can deep strike everything. How do they fair with out tanks, and in 7th edition over all?

There are a few problems with Elysians. First and foremost, the basic Valkyrie is rather expensive for what it does. It offers great mobility, but doesn't bring much killing power. The Vendetta is better, but much more expensive and with a lower transport capacity.

A big kick in the groin for them as an army is that flyers start in reserve. This causes several problems. First, it means they must have at least *something* on the table to begin with or lose turn 1 automatically, and those somethings usually aren't terribly capable and are often easily killed themselves. Second it means you're relying on the luck of the dice for when basically the entire army shows up in ways that other armies built around similar concepts (e.g. Drop Pod Marines) don't have to deal with and can get lots of stuff of their choosing onto the board with great effectiveness right where it needs to be.

The other big problem with Elysians is that, much like all other IG armies, the infantry are largely crap, which means that once they disembark, they're effectively suicide units and even if they kill their intended target on disembarkation, typically they're just immediately killed in return with very little effort on the part of the opponent, and with the cost of the flyer transports, there's very few of them, and they don't function at anything near the level of troops from similar armies (e.g. Eldar with high mobility, specialized T3 troops). They basically act a lot like Eldar...just worse

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
On the plus side, IG can ally in Imperial Knights, and that's not so bad.

For all relevant purposes, so can most armies in the game though, and then they're not IG, they're IK's

However, 4E > 5E and 3E > 5E.

Ehh...I liked 4E wound allocation and a couple other parts, but if you wanted to play a vehicle heavy non-skimmer army that relied on transports, it was basically not possible, and IG were, if anything, even worse than they are now. Watching an army like Eldar run up, invisible behind area terrain, dump out wherever they pleased in your deployment zone, and consolidated up without ever getting a chance to be shot at, was not fun.

 Selym wrote:
Here is 10 pages of why we don't need more of these threads:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/669516.page

I bowed out of that particular gakstorm at page 7, which is too bad, as I appear to have missed some epic trolling attempts by Janky. Did anybody confirm that his "tournaments" were actually 1v1 games against pre-teen kids with half the points?


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 Vaktathi wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
On the plus side, IG can ally in Imperial Knights, and that's not so bad.

For all relevant purposes, so can most armies in the game though, and then they're not IG, they're IK's

Sure they are, because the majority of models are IG models; however, if built properly, the overwhelming points are coming from the big boys, not the fodder.

 Vaktathi wrote:
A big kick in the groin for them as an army is that flyers start in reserve. This causes several problems. First, it means they must have at least *something* on the table to begin with or lose turn 1 automatically, and those somethings usually aren't terribly capable and are often easily killed themselves. Second it means you're relying on the luck of the dice for when basically the entire army shows up in ways that other armies built around similar concepts (e.g. Drop Pod Marines) don't have to deal with and can get lots of stuff of their choosing onto the board with great effectiveness right where it needs to be.

The other big problem with Elysians is that, much like all other IG armies, the infantry are largely crap, which means that once they disembark, they're effectively suicide units and even if they kill their intended target on disembarkation, typically they're just immediately killed in return with very little effort on the part of the opponent, and with the cost of the flyer transports, there's very few of them, and they don't function at anything near the level of troops from similar armies (e.g. Eldar with high mobility, specialized T3 troops). They basically act a lot like Eldar...just worse

I play Elysian drop troops and you are forgetting about their Combat Drop Rule. This allows their Valkyries, Sky Talons, Drop Sentinels and Sentry Turrets to Deep Strike in Turn 1 like a Drop Pod so you never have to worry about not having models on the table for the first game turn. Also it is not as bad as you think bringing on the rest of your reserves, the Elysians have access to Officers of the Fleet and the Long Range Ground Scanner which can give you a 2+ roll to bring in your Reserves which in a lot of cases is even better than Space Marines.

You are correct in the fact that is a very highly Elite Army and Veterans are really the only way to run them as their standard Platoons do not have access to orders. A good way to think of this army is like the old school Mech Vet spam except instead of easy to kill Chimeras you have much more survivable zooming Valkyries who arguably have much better anti-infantry firepower as well. As I mentioned earlier if you equip all your veterans with either three Melta Guns or three Plasma Guns you can deploy them in a way where you could deliver a very effective strike and suffer minimal casualties in return. With my Elysian Drop Troops I have actually faced and beaten the new Eldar, Necrons and Marines in a very competitive environment that is my FLGS ( even in our friendly games we take really strong lists) and I have found it to be one of the few IG armies that can hold their own against the new top Codexes. Also the insane maneuverability of the Valkyries really helps us keep up against other fast armies, especially in games of Malestorm.

Another issue is cover. Paradoxically while some weapons rip through people the majority of guard weapons bounce off a universe of ravenwing and tzentch daemons. Monstrous creatures take multiple shots to drop where vehicles can still far more reliably be blown up in one shot. Combined with said creatures having saves and its not a contest.

The game has become awash with units either very effective or very durable. Guard has less of these natively in their book and must rely on allies. There is also a further subset of units asymmetrically more durable (stealthed black knights) or killy (d-scythes) or unreasonable in casual play (battle companies or decisions).

To compete some of the tools have been handed to guard but not enough.

While the imperial guard has a vast array of units to choose from, options don't really matter when they are all bad.

* Almost everything in the codex needs a massive points reduction.

* Guardsmen....which should epitomize the backbone of the IG do nothing more than die. Their point cost is far too high for what they don't do. At present they serve only to tax the player who uses them & veterans aren't much better.

* The rules for half the units in the codex are just terrible. Units like Rough Riders/Ogryn/Stormtroopers as well as many others do not perform the role they are supposed to.

* Armor might as well be aluminum foil. Glanced to death by everything.

* Then there are absolutely absurd rules like vox casters having limited distance etc. Are they using fisher price walky talkies? Basic radio equipment today can reach halfway across the world. But in the 40k it can't reach across a football field? Right...

I thought there was a huge thread that outlined many of the issues IG have. Edit Here it is:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/651867.page

Other armies have frankly been handed easier and more effective shooting phases, plus more durable platforms to boot.

Guard are in a bit of a weird place right now, to where they walk all over the lower 'dexes but get smashed the second any of the "7.5" codices looks in their general direction.

Overall two big things have hurt the Guard:

The proliferation of multiwound models with stacked saves and high toughness. If I fire 150 lasgun shots at a unit of Canoptek Wraiths (a full platoon in rapid fire range and under FRFSRF) I will cause four wounds. If they're being fielded in a Decurion and have RP active, that drops to two.

The terrible vehicle rules, and none of the things like Jink that other races get.

More of a flavor thing, but the current Guard 'dex is terrible in terms of customization and fluff. I get jealous every time I look at the 30k Imperial Militia and the Renegades and Heretics lists, just because you can add flavor and have your army play differently.

Not to say we're as bad off as some, but I'd appreciate an update.

OP allow me to enlighten you:

The Imperial Guard are gak. Our infantry exist purely for board control and meatshielding and out of these they struggle to do the former as they can be wiped out in their hundrds. The only way I make mine last is to bring them as Veterans with camo gear and stick them in cover which brings me to point two which is: Other OP codexes. Space Marines can bring three Vindicators to drop a 10" S10 AP1 ignores cover pieplate and other codexes have plenty of tough ignores cover stuff.

My regular opponent always rings the triple Vindicator spam crap. With it I have the choice of bundling my stuff up in cover and then getting smashed by the 10" template or spreading out and having my Infantry gunned down in the open. Fun? No.
Hell, someone described Imperial Guard Infantry as a tax and I fully agree with them. Our basic Infantry are a tax to the rest of the army.

And then we have the tanks. Overpriced but still vital. Now they are Heavy vehicles meaning that Infantry can outrun them whilst they now struggle to do anything against my opponents units. The Vanquisher is a joke and the classic LRBT might as well not exist.

Our elites are terrible being both over priced and under powered and our fast attack selections are a joke with only Sentinels being vaguely useful.

The lack of decent BS is also a problem - is a 'Veteran crew' upgrade for +1BS at 10 points too much to ask for our tanks? With the exception of our Lord Commissars there is no BS 5 in the entire list and most things are sub BS 4.

The new formations are also a mixed bunch. Some like the the Armoured Fist and that SH and the Artillery ones are okay, not stellar mind, but okay. Others like the Psyker one, the Emperors Shield and the Decurion escue one are terrible.

Another thing that really hurts the guards mobility is removing models that are closest to the attacking model. I don't mind the mechanic itself in fact it makes sense ans ensure you are placing your models carefully but when my blob moves 6 inches up the board and then the first 4-6 inches gets wiped out. the squad is essentially back where it started only to. Try it again the next turn.

Or removing the other players models. Sure I have 2X or 3X the number of models that you have but I am struggling to remove one of your MEQ's whilst you are happily murdering my bods at a rate of knots

Back in "the day" I always viewed the guards strength as being squadrons and numbers back when army slots were limited. They are still fashioned in that way, making people who play the CAD being able to get more bang for their buck. The unfortunate part of that is that there is sooooo much more than CAD nowadays and now all the armies get squadrons that it has taken away that once super special guard ability. I would like to see something akin to Fire team or the space marine rules where you can take 3 of a tank and it gets to do something extra cool to reflect this, such as 3 hellhounds getting to use a hellstorm template, or 3 LRBTs getting pinning, or basilisks get to have a 10 inch blast, or better yet, that 3rd tank comes at a big price decrease (which would go a long way for GW selling minis). I would just like to see something that rewards me for playing with A LOT OF MEN on the table. I've always been in favor of an infantry guard universal rule where they can "dig in" and if a unit does not move for a turn it gets to add +1 to their cover saves, maybe as part of a decurion. Another thing I would like to see is a big point decrease on hellhounds, because as long as Eradicators exist there is no point to take them, as well as a general point decrease for most Russes in the magnitude of 15-25 points.

Speaking of fluff, I'd like to see something more along the line of the emperor shield (in style, not rules) by making you take something like massed infantry squads that gain a bonus of some kind (maybe a leadership bonus?) if they stay within 6 inches of a Leman Russ and other things along those lines

Edit: and Taurox Primes (which I love for some reason), its such a limited unit use unit it should be BASE 60 points or at least open it up to more units to use

Honestly, it's because no one on Earth has the patience to play what would be a truly competitive IG army. You could very easily field upwards of 300 infantry models in 21 different squads for 1300 points (including guardsmen, conscripts, and PCS). You could field over 500 in a regular 2000 point game. Against pretty much every army I've ever played in 7th, there would be no way that an enemy could ever secure an objective after turn 2. But dear god, who would ever want to pack and move and handle 500 models. Most enemies wouldn't have enough units to kill off that many models. You could probably do something similar with Taurox and just have tons of objective secured vehicles soaking up bullets. It could be done, but your games would take 10 hours.

Has anyone tried Emperor's Wrath formation from the Montka campaign book ? I e heard it's hard as nails.

 TheSilo wrote:
Honestly, it's because no one on Earth has the patience to play what would be a truly competitive IG army. You could very easily field upwards of 300 infantry models in 21 different squads for 1300 points (including guardsmen, conscripts, and PCS). You could field over 500 in a regular 2000 point game. Against pretty much every army I've ever played in 7th, there would be no way that an enemy could ever secure an objective after turn 2. But dear god, who would ever want to pack and move and handle 500 models. Most enemies wouldn't have enough units to kill off that many models. You could probably do something similar with Taurox and just have tons of objective secured vehicles soaking up bullets. It could be done, but your games would take 10 hours.

Find a way to temporarily secure a model to a movement tray. 500 men : 50 trays

For platoons, attach the trays together.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Has anyone tried Emperor's Wrath formation from the Montka campaign book ? I e heard it's hard as nails.

I've tried it with Hydras, Wyverns, and a Manticore. Ignore Cover Basilisks sound fun, but I don't have the models. While Wyverns don't get much from the formation, Ignores Cover Hydras are always nice and Ignores Cover Manticores are devastating to anything not in power armor. I'd really love to be able to issue "Bring it Down!" to the formation but eh.

Do any of their Superheavies like the Shadowsword, Stormsword, Baneblade etc make much difference to them?

I only ask because I am considering getting one at some point and wasn't 100% sure if the points were better spent on something else.

This thread doesn't fill me with confidence with the Astra Militarum force I've just started putting together. At least my regular opponent will be playing mostly CSM and Dark Eldar. As soon as he gets Tau though, I am buggered!

The Guard superheavies are among the most balanced (read: not overpowered) Lords of War around. In an age of 300 pt Jump Gargantuan Creatures and Overcompensation Suits, they don't really hold up.

They are fun and awesome models, though. Some are better than others. I have a Shadowsword which is pretty fun.

IG superheavies face the same argument highlightd above.
Damage output VS manouveability.
Most other superheavies move as quickly if not faster than them (Gargs, Heiro, Revenant, LoS etc) and once they are caught in hth its usually an ugly outcome.
If you can protect them from being caught in hth they can do better and some variants pout out terrific firepower but over a 6-7 turn game they are likely to be caught, their protection destroyed or blown up via shooting once their bubblewrap is gone :(
Really comes down to: can you put out enough pewpew before they get caught.

 Lukash_ wrote:
The Guard superheavies are among the most balanced (read: not overpowered) Lords of War around. In an age of 300 pt Jump Gargantuan Creatures and Overcompensation Suits, they don't really hold up.

They are fun and awesome models, though. Some are better than others. I have a Shadowsword which is pretty fun.

Imo, the Baneblades could do with either a points drop or a firepower increase, as equivalent points in LRBT is more efficient. And LRBT's are rubbish atm.

 Slaphead wrote:
Do any of their Superheavies like the Shadowsword, Stormsword, Baneblade etc make much difference to them?

I only ask because I am considering getting one at some point and wasn't 100% sure if the points were better spent on something else.

No, they don't. But they are pretty nice models.

If you want one for looks and for funsies, go ahead and get one. If you wanted to put your dollars where the points were good, you'd play Decurion or Tau, not Guard.


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 Lukash_ wrote:
The Guard superheavies are among the most balanced (read: not overpowered) Lords of War around. In an age of 300 pt Jump Gargantuan Creatures and Overcompensation Suits, they don't really hold up.

That is a strange way of saying that the IG SuperTanks suck.

 Selym wrote:
Imo, the Baneblades could do with either a points drop or a firepower increase, as equivalent points in LRBT is more efficient. And LRBT's are rubbish atm.

Or they could get a re-rollable 4++ (but only 5++ if not in an IG force) against any damage. That'd move them from crap to playable, just like everything in the Necron list.

Without reading anything else in this thread...AM aren't "so bad". While they certainly have started to fall behind newer army lists mostly because of codex creep, it doesn't mean they are bad. Some of their new formations, like the artillery one, are downright nasty.

riburn3 wrote:
Without reading anything else in this thread...AM aren't "so bad". While they certainly have started to fall behind newer army lists mostly because of codex creep, it doesn't mean they are bad. Some of their new formations, like the artillery one, are downright nasty.

I don't seem to have much trouble as IG, but my gaming group isn't particularly hardcore. I usually win against everyone except Eldar or Necrons. My gripe is that it's basically pointless to take more than one elite or fast attack unit, so my army comp is kinda boring with just infantry, apcs, and heavy support. I still maintain that veterans are one of the best troop choices in the game, they're super cheap BS4 and can bring 3 plasma or meltas, that's pretty darn good.

 Slaphead wrote:
Do any of their Superheavies like the Shadowsword, Stormsword, Baneblade etc make much difference to them?

I only ask because I am considering getting one at some point and wasn't 100% sure if the points were better spent on something else.

This thread doesn't fill me with confidence with the Astra Militarum force I've just started putting together. At least my regular opponent will be playing mostly CSM and Dark Eldar. As soon as he gets Tau though, I am buggered!

The Guard can be nasty and if used well can make some of the stronger codex's stand up and take notice. However we suffer from being a slow/immobile gunline army that relies on large numbers of squishy infantry and tanks in an era where vehicles have been nerfed into the ground, just about every army can remove light infantry (read: Average Guardsman) in vast quantities per turn and even less shooty armies such as Marines can put more firepower (nand more effective firepower) downrange faster.
We also suffer from having some of the worst pricing in the game with many units being costed at over twice what they are actually worth (looking at you here Elite's).

That said the Guard are a fun army to play a fluffy list with and can be a good one for learning advanced tactics with (mainly because you have too to win).

As for the SH's, I usually find that the Shadowsword can be fun, if unreliable. Do not use the entry from Escalation or the Mont'Ka book, use the one from the Imperial Armour book. It is still legal by GW's own ruling and is far better than the over nerfed crap that is the GW version.

The OP's question is a weird one. The 'Astra Militarum' Codex in a vacuum isn't particularly strong, but the Imperial Guard in general have access to more Forge World units, variant army lists, Allies, and expansion book shenanigans than pretty much everyone else. If you're going to chain yourself to building an army out of a single book the Guard aren't very good at it, but you can build incredibly good lists out of their models and small allied forces using all the toys at their disposal.

While FW units are valid selections, it would be nice to actually have an IG army that looks like an IG army, and doesn't rely on additional expensive books. Atm, the AM codex is useless.

While I love forge world and welcome it into the game, if you need another book to make yours viable than you have a bad codex especially for an Army that is clearly a main army. I'm more understanding for say the ad mech, skittarri, knights, harlequins, and Inquisition books to need allies as they are mini codexes. Imperial Guard is not, they are a full army with a full range and shouldn't need a crutch to play well.

Guard face an up-hill battle and the codex needs a LOT of revision and update across the board to make the unit choices worth their (currently very over costed) points.

And I see someone linked that thread with Jancoran spouting off at the mouth and never actually saying or proving anything useful. Good times.

Hopefully we'll see some updates soon, I love my Vostroyan Guard and really enjoy playing them despite the current lack-luster rules in this codex. I even own a full squad of Wyrdvane Psykers, fully painted, as well as a Hellhound that I haven't used in over a year because the Eradicator Leman Russ is just a better tank all around.

We'll see what we can see, I suppose. Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

What makes Guard so bad is the fact that we ho real tactic that works anymore. Our infantry is laughably easy to remove (even when spammed) forcing Guard players to go to Mech Vets just to not feel like they're wasting their time with infantry. Our vehicles are all overcosted, underpowered (sometimes both), and also painfully easy to just glance to death. Guard need a lot of work. I love my Cadians, I really do, so I just pray that at some point GW will give Guard the new codex we badly need.

shyzo wrote:
very point-efficient tanks.

Let's address this point. Are the IG...err AM tanks point efficient? The short answer is no.

Let's take a look at the classic LRBT with HB sponsons and a HB hull. For a long time, this was the staple of the IG army.
This clocks in at 170 points for a heavily armored, slowing moving tank that is weak to assault with weak to moderate firepower.

The Guns
The battle cannon rolls to deviate 2/3 of the time. Out of those, it's going to deviate an average of 4". This might still hit some targets, but it means grouping is hard.
A smart opponent will also space his models so you will only hit 3-4 on a good shot, and perhaps even less when deviating. Let's say that 1/3 of the time no targets are hit, 1/3 of the time 4 targets are hit, and 1/3 of the time 3 targets are hit, for a total of 7/3 hits per round of shooting. Of those 5/6 will be wounded, resulting in 35/18 (just under 2) dead enemies per turn. With cover or FNP this number drops, but let's look at best case for right now.

The HB's will hit 1/6 of the time. Against MEQ they wound 2/3 of the time, with 1/3 failed saves. This means we can expect the following results.
(Number of Shots) * (To Hit) * (To Wound) * (Failed Saves)
9 * 1/6 * 2/3 * 1/3 = .3 dead MEQ per turn.
9 * 1/6 * 5/6 = 1 GEQ per turn.

In summary, the massive firepower of the LRBT equals ~2.3 dead MEQ per turn or ~3 GEQ per turn.
I normally try to avoid using 'earn their points back' but in this case it's a good measuring stick. Given a 14 point MEQ, in just over 5 turns of firing the LRBT will earn its points back in MEQ. It will never catch up to GEQ.

Comparison
Let's compare the LRBT firepower to a ravager. At 110 points, it has 3 disintegrator cannons.
9 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 1 = 4 dead MEQ per turn.
At the same rate, the ravager will "Earn it's points back" in less than two turns.
To add the nail in this coffin, the Ravager is not exactly the 'most dakka unit in the game'. Scat bikes are even better.


The Armor
Next lets look at the toughness of the LRBT. AV 14 in the front and 13 on the sides is not bad. The biggest weakness IMHO is the AV10 rear. The LRBT fears marines stuffing krak grenades up it's ass, and that's the least of it's worries. Swooping hawks, knights, D weapons can overwhelm the LRBT.

As has been mentioned, they can also be glanced to death. This means that STR 7+ weapons can start racking up the glances on the side -- and STR 7 is not that uncommon.


'Emperor's Fist Armored Company'
This formation dramatically improves upon the LRBT. It increases the firepower by providing BS4, a significant boost.
It increases the durability by forcing your opponent to roll two dice when rolling damage effects.
This helps to make the LRBT more competitive. The increase of BS is more effective on the punisher gatling gun -- given that a 1" smaller deviation is not that great of an effect. To take a look our firepower ratio, we have this...punisher.
29 * 2/3 * 2/3 * 1/3 = 4 dead MEQ per turn, earning it's points back in 2.6 turns! While still not on the level of the ravager, it's a heck of a lot better.

These are much better numbers -- but they are still not the best unit in the game by a long shot.


Why use the LRBT?
The biggest advantage I can see about the LRBT is the fact that there are thousands upon thousands in existence. You can find them on ebay, on craigslist, or dakka swap shot for cheap. In a game where 'He who spends the most $$$ wins', you can play for cheap.

LRBTs are also cool. Fielding 6 LRBT and 5 chimeras full of vets is just cool.