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Made in us
[DCM]
.







Shipping costs (x2 for the two 'waves') look to be the boogyman here.

Especailly what we're starting to hear about Warpath shipping costs.

I can see this one slowing down and even backpedaling a bit more as people begin to think the 'value' isn't here and/or 'waiting for retail' is a better option.


   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence

Seeing red on those charts, even though it is likely temporary, is not a good sign.

No matter how many times Mantic tries to spin the 'value' and how many fans parrot the spin, too many folks can look at the prices Mantic products actually get when sold retail and can see postage making the 'value' even worse.

I do think the initial offering had too little included to justify the premium price, and they are not really caught up yet.

There is a big difference between MSRP and retail prices, and when you consider pledgers won't even get the retail packaging for most of what the pledge consists of, using MSRP as the correct 'value' makes even less sense. A lot of collectors are going to want the packaging. And the packaging makes up part of MSRP and retail costs, so delivering without needs to take that into account when judging 'value'.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/08 16:11:59


Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. 
   
Made in at
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot





Barely a week in and already losing backers... Anyone remember at which point it happened for the MA KS? Bit later, right? If so, this doesnt exactly look great...
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




London

Mars Attacks, and DBX, suffered from the fairly massive Kickstarter flaw of having multiple limited pledges! So even people like myself, who were interested and ended up spending a decent amount on the project, pledged for multiple levels using different accounts and cancelled one of those partway through the project. It doesn't take many $150-$375 pledges to be dropped to both cause a big dent in the total, and to then cause more people to pull out because they feel the project is failing.

I'm not saying that losing backers isn't a concern for this project though! Just that a mass desertion is less likely. And I agree that more value both surely can be, and needs to be, demonstrated.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Bristol

Campaigns always have the odd person leaving, fact it isn't bringing in enough to replace them.

Do you think it's value or something else? Surely a couple of bucks shipping for an optional add-ons ain't really that big a deal.

Anyway, they've posted up some new stuff today. They've reshown the Deadzone production figures, which are the same material as TWD will be.

https://business.facebook.com/manticgames/posts/10153841724972319


And they've got a rules preview which sounds great and has got people in the comments excited again:

https://manticblog.com/2016/02/08/15209/
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut





UK

for a lot of American potential backers it could be

they get free shipping much more frequently over there from online retail

and previous Mantic KS backers remember the used to get it from Mantic (and so having to pay rubs salt in the wound)

and they can regularly get 25% off from online discounters (and more when Miniature Market discount Mantic stuff which they seem to do all the time)


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Bristol

I don't buy the free shipping thing, CMON's kickstarters all make you pay shipping and you used to get it there. Shouldn't be an issue.

The discount is better than 25% off retail too, it's already a better deal than you'd get from Miniature Market and there are exclusives.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence

Shipping is an issue, in part because it is an unknown cost.

When originally asked about rubber mats, Mantic claimed they were too expensive to ship. Now they are offered with unknown shipping. And Mantic has assigned a $30 value to each, and we KNOW that is bull gak because we can buy their current mats for $20 a pop and not pay shipping in many cases. So offering them to me at $20 a pop if I get both, and adding in a as yet to be determined shipping cost, is NOT really doing me many favors. It sure as gak is not better than 25% off retail.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/08 17:56:09


Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Bristol

Huh? The costs are on the front page, said so in the update.

The $40 add-on that at MSRP would be $80 (or $60 with your 25% discount thingy) is $8 shipping to the US. So $12 cheaper than if you'd bought 2 mats and the scenery at retail after discount, including shipping.

Or don't buy the mats, then it isn't a deal. You don't need them.
   
Made in at
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot





The issue isnt that the mats are going to be sold for that price, its that the (larger!) MA mats cost 10$ less than the retail price these ones are supoosed to be sold at. So youre getting a better price on something that just had its price increased by 50%... if that makes sense?
That said, getting the mats seems like a bad idea anyway. Nothing exclusive in there, ships in second wave (so itd double your basic shipping costs), and youll most likely get everything cheaper at retail anyway...
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Runnin up on ya.

 Black Nexus wrote:
I don't buy the free shipping thing, CMON's kickstarters all make you pay shipping and you used to get it there. Shouldn't be an issue.

The discount is better than 25% off retail too, it's already a better deal than you'd get from Miniature Market and there are exclusives.


Um, Miniature Market often discounts Mantic stuff much greater than 25%. Examples:

20th century apartment block, retail $49.99, Mantic webstore Umm, not there, discontinued?, Mini Market $24.99
http://www.miniaturemarket.com/catalog/product/view/id/47072/s/mgtrb04/

Dreadball Kalyshi - retail $29.99, Mantic webstore $29.99, Mini Market $15.00.
http://www.miniaturemarket.com/catalog/product/view/id/44423/s/mgdbm112/

Sure, the standard discount is 25-30% but they offer $5.95 flat-rate shipping or free if you order $99 or more vs the insane shipping prices from the UK that backers are reporting.

Yeah, if it's any good, I'll get it at clearance next year from Miniature Market.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/08 18:26:05


Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence

 Black Nexus wrote:
Huh? The costs are on the front page, said so in the update.

The $40 add-on that at MSRP would be $80 (or $60 with your 25% discount thingy) is $8 shipping to the US. So $12 cheaper than if you'd bought 2 mats and the scenery at retail after discount, including shipping.

Or don't buy the mats, then it isn't a deal. You don't need them.


Mantic wrote:Note that shipping charges above are estimates and are subject to change.


So, if the estimate holds true, $48 for two mats, that I can get two bigger Mars Attacks mats for $40 shipped...

Yeah, not much of a discount there.

MSRP does not equal retail price. Especially for Mantic.

Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Bristol

Tyr - Makes sense. you aren't just purchasing two mats, there's the scenery as well.

Agnosto - I was quoting the 25% from the message above. Sure, on clearance you might be able to get a better deal. Provided it's in clearance.

Still, hardly think $8 shipping is insane.

But anyway, anyone read the rules preview?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 CptJake wrote:
 Black Nexus wrote:
Huh? The costs are on the front page, said so in the update.

The $40 add-on that at MSRP would be $80 (or $60 with your 25% discount thingy) is $8 shipping to the US. So $12 cheaper than if you'd bought 2 mats and the scenery at retail after discount, including shipping.

Or don't buy the mats, then it isn't a deal. You don't need them.


Mantic wrote:Note that shipping charges above are estimates and are subject to change.


So, if the estimate holds true, $48 for two mats, that I can get two bigger Mars Attacks mats for $40 shipped...

Yeah, not much of a discount there.

MSRP does not equal retail price. Especially for Mantic.


It ain't $48 for 2 mats. it's $48 for 2 mats and scenery, which would be 55-60 bucks... online discounter may charge a discounted price for it, but it still stems from MSRP and it's still cheaper.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/08 18:41:22


 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
.







Early reports have the WARPATH shipping coming in much higher than anticipated.

That + rather dubious 'value' at the start for the price + some rather sub-par/lack-luster sculpts + Mantic's spotty quality record + ability to get Mantic stuff cheaper at discounted retail = The Walking Dead All Out War Kickstarter not moving as quickly as many had anticipated.

Again, early days and all that, but more time will 'help' some things (number of miniatures, 'value', etc.) and not others (quality, shipping charges, discounted retail pricing, etc.).
   
Made in nl
[MOD]
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Cozy cockpit of an Archer ARC-5S

But will it easily hit that magical one million though?



Fatum Iustum Stultorum



Fiat justitia ruat caelum

 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





SoCal

On the Warpath PM, I ordered a limited number of sprues, which based on previous experience with Mantic should fit into a media mail box for hardcover books, or something similar. Mantic charged $20 for shipping. Actual books only cost 4 or 5 bucks to ship from the UK. I've had similar sized purchases shipped from Japan for less than 5 bucks. It's ridiculous.


And pretending that Mantic's suggested retail price reflects the actual value of their products demeans us all. We all see what they sell for, or even don't sell for, when the Invisible Hand of Miniature Market sets the prices.

   
Made in us
[DCM]
.







 BrookM wrote:
But will it easily hit that magical one million though?


No, I don't think so.

But I've certainly been wrong before!
   
Made in us
Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?





Affton, MO. USA

@Black Nexus, $8 shipping isn't terrible, but the fact that they are not able to stick to their shipping estimates in their other campaigns has us concerned. That along with the fact that we are paying well in advance for the items, and Mantic has a history of changing materials along the process means we might wind up with rubber (from car tires) mats. Waiting for retail is a much safer bet on most things, on Mantic items it is the only sure way to see what you are paying for. Also the lack of tracking that has been on packages when they do ship is stupid. Mantic wants to keep losing packages and having to reship? They need to find better ways of doing their business, cause GW is striking back with their new CEO and bundle deals., They are bringing the fight back to Mantic.

LOL, Theo your mind is an amazing place, never change.-camkierhi 9/19/13
I cant believe theo is right.. damn. -comradepanda 9/26/13
None of the strange ideas we had about you involved your sexual orientation..........-Monkeytroll 12/10/13

I'd put you on ignore for that comment, if I could...Alpharius 2/11/14 
   
Made in us
Gargantuan Gargant





New Bedford, MA USA


Okay, can we please stop pretendeing MiniaturesMarket somehow effects the whole Mantic market ?

Let's go pop over to MiniatureMarket and pick up some Kings Of War, Mars Attacks, or Warpath ... Oh wait you can't.

Miniatures Market gets whatever Mantic Product is new and discounts it 20%. Then, when the initial rush dies down, they increase the discount to clear out remaining stock, and stop carrying it.

-----

If you wait until the backers have their stuff, when Miniatures Market gets stocked, catch all the stuff you want while it's in stock, and you are willing to go without the kickstarter exclusives and freebies, you can save 20% + shipping.









   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

The Warstore has a pretty broad range of Kings of War stuff at 20% off, including the army sets. Availability is a bit spotty, but such is the case right now with KOW. Flat shipping of $7.

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence

None of the prices I mentioned were from Miniatures Market. I used Amazon, The Warstore, and a couple other web shops to check prices.

Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





Melbourne, Australia

 Black Nexus wrote:


But anyway, anyone read the rules preview?


Yep, and for anyone who hasn't, here it is:

Spoiler:
In this article we take a look at the basic mechanics behind The Walking Dead: All Out War miniatures game. Studio Manager Stewart Gibbs tells you more.

One of the greatest things about The Walking Dead is how it’s a zombie story that’s not really about the zombies. The Walking Dead is about the characters and their desperate struggle for survival, and each and every one is given such depth that you can empathise with the tough decisions they have to make. It’s those decisions that we wanted to capture in game form.

The Walking Dead: All Out War is all about survival, but with the state of the world post-apocalypse, survival isn’t all that easy. We have striven to create a game where the tension is always rising, forcing the players to be smart, creative, or just reckless in order to stay alive. It’s kill or be killed. We also wanted to include some typical war-gaming elements to properly engage those who want more than a board game experience.

So, how do you win a game of All Out War? The All Out War expansions will have a series of narrative scenarios allowing you to play out the events that unfolded in the comics – Rick and Glenn’s journey into Atlanta to find guns, the opening of Hershel’s barn, all the way through to the Governor’s assault on the prison. You can play these with the characters from the story or alternatively swap them out for characters of your choice – what if Michonne turned up early, or Shane survived to join the war against Woodbury?

Outside of the narrative, the standard scenario for the game represents a supply run made by members of your group, with the objective being to collect supplies from locations around the board – stashes of food, clothing, ammunition, fuel, medicine, and so on. However, you won’t be the only one searching – there will be a rival group trying to get there first. The winner is the player who collects the most supplies, but to do that you will need to navigate the ever-present threat of the Walkers and outwit your opponent.

The standard game also presents the opportunity to build up your group in your own way, with a wide selection of characters and equipment suited to different playstyles. The characters and equipment are all presented on cards containing a points value and all of their rules, allowing for simple group-building and making it easy to expand the range in the future.

As time goes on, more clearly defined “factions” will enter the game, but even now, the limits on constructing your group are fairly minimal – new people aren’t always friendly at first, and do tend to switch allegiance from time to time! You don’t have to stick strictly to the alliances seen in the story – there are many points at which the tide could have turned and friend fights friend to survive!

Groups are built around a Leader. This can be any character, but some have special abilities that apply when they are in charge, and can affect the playstyle of your group. A group built around Rick will be more tactical and cautious, whereas a group built around Shane may be more aggressive. Playing the two groups against each other will make for an interesting game. Lots of characters in the game are “neutral” (Derek, Liam, Patrick and Sandra for example) and can be used in any group, so it’s easy to come up with different group combinations, each with their own advantages and disadvantages.

Now you know how to put a group together, let’s look at the main challenge you will face in the game – Threat. Threat is a measure of how tense the atmosphere is – how scared your characters are, how pressured they feel, and how riled up the Walkers have become. The game includes a Threat Tracker, which is placed beside the board and moved up and down depending on the events in the game – gunshots, surprise Walker attacks, getting into melee, and so on.

Every character has a Nerve level, representing their ability to remain calm under such pressure. Once the Threat reaches their Nerve, they may Panic, with results such as screaming in fear, running away, hiding, or even going berserk! If that wasn’t enough, the higher the threat, the more the Walkers will take notice of the Survivors and attack in large numbers. Threat also serves as the game’s time limit – once it hits maximum it’s game over. A clever player may try to push it up to end the game while they’re ahead, while their opponent tries to reduce it to regain the advantage. Managing the Threat is a hugely important part of the game.

As Mantic fans will appreciate, the core mechanics behind the game have been kept as simple as possible, reducing the learning curve while allowing players to spend their time devising cunning tactics rather than looking up rules.

The game uses alternate activation, with Survivors taking turns making various actions. Each can make two different choices, with options such as moving, shooting, searching, hiding and making noise to draw a Walker close. Melee is not an action in its own right, and is instead completed all at once later in the turn, once all the Walkers have joined in!

Shooting and Melee are carried out using simple opposed rolls like DreadBall or Deadzone – the difference in successes equals the damage dealt. These rolls are made with dice designed especially for the game, with varying numbers of successes on the faces and different colours for attacks of different strengths. These custom dice allow for more subtle combinations without complicating the rules or introducing extreme rolls. In addition to a number of successes, some of the faces also have a headshot symbol – vital if you don’t want the Walkers to get back up again…
The colours are used for the stats in the game – Rick’s Survivor card shows a white dice symbol for melee, whereas a Walker has a red dice symbol – these show which dice to roll for an attack. Equipment cards can add extra dice to a Survivor’s rolls as well.

TWD-charactercards
So that’s how Survivors work, but what about Walkers? All Out War uses a unique AI system to move the Walkers, so you don’t need a player to control them. This system moves them in three different ways:

NOISE and MAYHEM. Just as you will have seen from the story, your life can depend on staying quiet and still, and the game is no different. Certain actions in the game can’t be done quietly, and taking them will draw Walkers close. For example, Sneaking (4" move) is silent, but Running (8" move) causes NOISE, meaning that once the action is complete the nearest Walker within 8"will move directly towards the Survivor. Firing a gun on the other hand is much louder, and causes MAYHEM. This works in the same way, but all Walkers within 8" will move towards the survivor.

MAYHEM also increases the Threat level by one, so it’s a dangerous thing to do! Survivors can also choose to make

NOISE to direct the Walkers where they want them, and there are other things that cause MAYHEM such as car alarms.

The Kill Zone. After all Survivors have taken their actions, the Kill Zone template (5" diameter) is placed over each Walker on the board. If there is a survivor within range, the Walker will move into melee with it immediately. It’s wise to give Walkers a wide berth.

The Event Cards. These are drawn every turn after checking the Kill Zones. Each will have a list of effects that must be carried out immediately. Usually these will involve moving Walkers or bringing new Walkers onto the board in different ways, but there are some special events – things like car alarms and thunderstorms. In most cases the players take it in turns to move the Walkers in a direction of their choice, but some cards will specify a direction. The effects of the cards vary depending on the Threat Level – at Low Threat a card may move only a few Walkers, but at High Threat every Walker on the board could move. Players need to bear this in mind when positioning their Survivors – it can be hard to judge where nearby Walkers will end up, especially as the cards often increase the Threat Level themselves.

One advantage that the Survivors have is that Walker movement is predictable. They always move in straight lines, and they always move at a Shamble (6"). They must stop when they reach a piece of scenery and cannot walk around it until the next time they move. Players can use this knowledge to their advantage – using barricades to keep Walkers at bay while they shoot their guns, or even getting behind the opponent’s models and drawing the Walkers directly into them. Many a playtest game has been won not by attacking the opposing group, but by letting the Walkers do the job for you! Walkers are particularly dangerous when in numbers as they get extra dice for outnumbering, so drawing a group of them onto an opponent spells certain doom.

That’s pretty much it for the core mechanics. We’ll be getting the playtest rules up shortly so you can look at everything in more detail. Everything you need to play will be included, but there is more to come before the game goes to print. We will still be adding sections on basic terrain types (elevated positions, buildings, etc) and some rules for simple character generation and campaign games to keep you playing long into the future!


I really like the idea of Nerve and the noise system. And seeing how the game will benefit from a tight play area, although maybe that area could be made larger with mroe scenery and zombies.

The galaxy is littered with the single-planet graveyards of civilisations which made the economically sensible decision not to explore space. 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





SoCal

 adamsouza wrote:

Okay, can we please stop pretendeing MiniaturesMarket somehow effects the whole Mantic market ?

Let's go pop over to MiniatureMarket and pick up some Kings Of War, Mars Attacks, or Warpath ... Oh wait you can't.

Miniatures Market gets whatever Mantic Product is new and discounts it 20%. Then, when the initial rush dies down, they increase the discount to clear out remaining stock, and stop carrying it.

-----

If you wait until the backers have their stuff, when Miniatures Market gets stocked, catch all the stuff you want while it's in stock, and you are willing to go without the kickstarter exclusives and freebies, you can save 20% + shipping.


It's not just MM. My local FLGS has to clearance out their Mantic stock whenever they're foolish enough to order a bunch, too. Other sites have decent discounts...or don't sell their product. Places that still stock Mantic and charge MSRP are places that don't sell Mantic. There are also plenty of former backers willing to trade or sell their rewards to the recipient's advantage. Frankly, there is no good reason to spend anywhere near MSRP on Mantic or to pretend that the product line in this KS is somehow different than Mantic's other ranges. The minis are just not worth what Mantic claims they are, and they will only depreciate in value once released.

I used to be a huge supporter of Mantic. Now, I just feel so burned by them that I can't be charitable towards their ever-more-cynical Kickstarter machine.

   
Made in us
Incorporating Wet-Blending






 YumaStout wrote:
I like this theme but we have a lot of miniatures and other stuff to use them in our tables. Do I need interested in this project if we use 28mm miniatures?


FAQ says, "The miniatures are 30mm scale, with the average adult character standing approximately 1.5” inches tall." I would guess that this means they're compatible with so-called 28mm miniatures (which would mean 30mm if they're "heroic" scale).

BTW, If you're looking for barricades, see also these for ZPocalypse. 41 mini's for $20. : http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HQ266FI?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o09_s00

Crimson Scales and Wildspire Miniatures thread on Reaper! : https://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/103935-wildspire-miniatures-thread/ 
   
Made in us
Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?





Affton, MO. USA

 adamsouza wrote:

Okay, can we please stop pretendeing MiniaturesMarket somehow effects the whole Mantic market ?


They may not effect the whole Mantic market, but they sure do effect a huge portion of the market that Mantic is after. Mantic would be lucky IF they could get MM to be their US distributor, but it's not going to happen.

LOL, Theo your mind is an amazing place, never change.-camkierhi 9/19/13
I cant believe theo is right.. damn. -comradepanda 9/26/13
None of the strange ideas we had about you involved your sexual orientation..........-Monkeytroll 12/10/13

I'd put you on ignore for that comment, if I could...Alpharius 2/11/14 
   
Made in us
Experienced Saurus Scar-Veteran





California the Southern

Oddly enough, my local shop started stocking the new post-KS Kings of War releases, and they're actually selling.

The other semi-local shop that I'm pretty sure is the same one Bob is referencing does in fact clear out the *older* Mantic stock whenever it turns up. I haven't seen anything post Deadzone releases end up getting clearanced.

I don't think I've seen any of their board games end up on clearance either in a physical store.

Poorly lit photos of my ever- growing collection of completely unrelated models!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/627383.page#7436324.html
Watch and listen to me ramble about these minis before ruining them with paint!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmCB2mWIxhYF8Q36d2Am_2A 
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter





SoCal

Project Pandora was cleared out a while ago. Dreadball stuff just sits there like they forgot it exists, the same way they clearanced some of their AT-43 and forgot about other boxes that were on a different aisle.

   
Made in us
Incorporating Wet-Blending






 Theophony wrote:
@Black Nexus, $8 shipping isn't terrible, but the fact that they are not able to stick to their shipping estimates in their other campaigns has us concerned.


fwiw, USPS has increases mail rates *twice* in the last year, with couriers increasing accordingly. CMON doubled its shipping estimate to the west coast for the Zombicide: Black Plague Knight (highest) pledge level.

Crimson Scales and Wildspire Miniatures thread on Reaper! : https://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/103935-wildspire-miniatures-thread/ 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




London

I'm not sure where to stand on the whole "Kickstarters must offer the deepest discount you will ever encounter" debate! Part of me thinks "We're acting both as an interest-free advance loan AND buying direct like a wholesaler, why shouldn't we get cheaper than wholesaler prices?". Another part of me thinks "There are a number of Kickstarters that have such a stark value difference between the Kickstarter and retail that I will never, ever buy them at retail because it feels like I'm wasting money. That can't make retailers happy.".

The more practical part of my brain thinks "If I was a business, and was using Kickstarter partly as a marketing drive/community creation for my upcoming project, I would want to make sure that my most ardent fans/supporters were contributing to my profit margin rather than selling them everything at cost."

But anyway, we know that Mantic didn't actually want to release the mats add-on, was actively advising people to pick them up at retail, so people probably should (or buy an equivalent)! Not seeing a massive issue on that specific topic.
   
Made in gb
RogueSangre



West Sussex, UK

They have approval to release the demo rules today which will hopefully give a clear idea on the quality of the game. Also expansion is coming but sounds like may be a stretch goal rather than addon (they could really do with a proper addon as well).
   
 
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