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So I have been crunching numbers and trying to decide on the army I want to build. I am also trying not to buy 2 of every single mini out there. I want to build one fun army. I am not a "Competitive" player, winning and losing are less important to me than having fun. On the other hand crushing your enemy's and seeing them driven before you. hearing the lamentations of their miniature women is a good thing. So now I can not decide if i want to built a well rounded force that can get missions done or a hardcore linked team than crushes all in its path.
I have a crusher style PanO Military order list with a nasty fire team or a fairly well rounded PanO NeoTerran Bolt link team but with all the support troops to get missions done. Since i am flip flopping on what to build, i was hoping to get some input and advice.

I'm fresh back to the game, but if I had to pick between a list primarily based on a team of murderers or a list with a team of decent soldiers backed up by specialists who between them can complete most objectives etc, and also do fun stuff to the enemy sometimes, I'd go with the 2nd

So you definitely dont't want to play below 300 Points, right?
I'd prefer the latter too or maybe a not so kill centered MO list

Are you going to focus on ITS missions, if so the one that can complete objectives. Otherwise you don't need that many specialist with the non-CB mission systems.

But, Infinity is designed around have options in list building. While hard counters are rare, it is not hard to load up on soft counters vs. static lists. There is a reason ITS is a 2 list standard.

In the end I go with what list I liked the look of best, more so if they are all I'm going to have.

Right now I am not looking at doing any Official ITS but here at my FLGS we play at 300 points. Too many of us are long time 40k players. hahaha

We seem to be following the ITS form though. Using the cards to set up the missions.

You see the trouble is my local players. Some of us are laid back and just want to play to have fun. Others of us do not have fun unless they are winning. Nice guys otherwise but maybe a bit over-competitive for the situation, if you get my drift.
So I guess I am going to go with multiple army's. (Witch I did not really want to do {Pretty sure I used the wrong "witch" back there}.)

So using the models I actually own right now. I made a Semi nasty "Pan-O Military Orders" list. Now i just need to win an eBay auction to make the other list I am looking at, that is much more about getting missions done, than killing everything on the table.

Thanks for your input guys.

On the plus side as they are both PanO, the models can be mixed and matched (within AVA limits) in a normal PanO list. And, in N3 you are not limit to 2 knights in a normal list like in N2.

Good luck and have fun.

Crush your enemies. See them driven before you. Hear the lamentations of their women.

 Nicorex wrote:
So I have been crunching numbers and trying to decide on the army I want to build. I am also trying not to buy 2 of every single mini out there.

This is definitely not required even in a competitive setting. I've seen people who buy the max AVA of anything available, even if there's only a single or couple of models for a high AVA, and I really just don't get it. A good list is better than a bad list, but Infinity isn't a game where you need to do this. Any time I'm building a Hassassin list and run into wanting a Barid FO and a Barid Hacker, of which there's a single model, I simply pick the one I want and go grab something else.

Though, I do have two additional Kum riders, but that's because I got them for Christmas, and building up a Kum gang with all unique riders is really appealing. If I can get to 10 unique riders, enough for a full combat group, I'll happily stop.

Maybe.

Thanks for all the advice guys.
So yesterday I got two games in. A concern/complaint was brought up that I was being "cheesy". Both of my opponents brought "Japanese Sectorals" with multiple ninjas and one with multiple oniwaban and one with a O-yoroi. The first game I won off of kill points, since neither of us were able to pull off any of the mission cards. I won by 7 points. The next game I got pretty luck because he charged multiple guys right into a big knot of my link team and all the specialists that were bunched up to go after the HVT objective.
Also there was a complaint that one of my mini's was holding a sniper rife but he was actually one of my grenade launcher dudes. I just used the model so I would know which guy was "special" but after the game I was informed that I should have told my opponent what the guy really was. He never once asked what he was though.

Please give my list a look see and tell me if I am being uber beardy.
Now this is the list I was using.


Neoterran Capitaline Army
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

Group 1 8 0 0
BOLT Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 24)
BOLT Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun, Drop Bears / Pistol, Knife. (25)
BOLT Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun, Drop Bears / Pistol, Knife. (25)
BOLT Boarding Shotgun, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (19)
BOLT Boarding Shotgun, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (19)
SIERRA DRONBOT HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
SIERRA DRONBOT HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
FUSILIER Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (10)

Group 2 8 1 0
AUXILIA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (15)
AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (4)
AUXILIA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (15)
AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (4)
FUSILIER Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18)
FUSILIER (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (12)
FUSILIER Combi Rifle + Light Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 14)
FUSILIER Combi Rifle + Light Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 14)
MACHINIST Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (15)
PALBOT Electric Pulse. (3)
PALBOT Electric Pulse. (3)
TRAUMA-DOC Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (14)
WARCOR (Sixth Sense L1) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (3)

6 SWC | 298 Points

Open with Army 5

Nothing cheesy about the list per se. It's fairly min-maxed but that's not unexpected in Infinity.

As for equipment, during deployment you should make it a practice to tell your opponent ALL open information regarding your models' equipment especially if you're using proxies. Proxies are OK in infinity, but not saying anything about it and then surprising your opponent with, "Surprise! This rifle guy has a HMG" is unacceptable. Any deviation from WYSIWYG should be discussed at the beginning of the game as a matter of courtesy. In Infinity I've never had an opponent who had any problems with using proxies but it's normally established that, whether or not proxies are used, after you've deployed all of your guys you should go down the line listing the unit and equipment, and answering opponent questions on statlines and things like that.

What Nuggz said about proxies, you will play very differently if you think there is a B2 sniper ARO opposite you.
Use the Smiley face button next to the PDF option in Army V to print a list that only shows open information which you can hand to your opponent, this helps alot.

I like your list alot and if anything is very balanced and just lacking a little active punch, relying on the linked Spitfire.
Fun to hear Ninja/Oni/TAG lists accusing that of being cheesy. I think the 2x TR HMGS will give new players nightmares but otherwise I think perhaps they haven't realised the value of healthy order pools and their TO-centric lists were not as maneuverable as yours

 Groundworks wrote:


I like your list alot and if anything is very balanced and just lacking a little active punch, relying on the linked Spitfire.
Fun to hear Ninja/Oni/TAG lists accusing that of being cheesy. I think the 2x TR HMGS will give new players nightmares but otherwise I think perhaps they haven't realised the value of healthy order pools and their TO-centric lists were not as maneuverable as yours

All good points raised here.

I'd like to add that Infinity is a rules game - rules open up tactical options that don't exist to a new player who is ignorant of the rules. This is just an example - If your Total Reaction HMGbots are giving the player nightmares then he needs to learn how to use Stealth. Many people don't realize this, but every model with Martial Arts comes with Stealth. If a model with Stealth moves B2B with an enemy model, that enemy model can only attempt CC attack, dodge, and other AROs available to Engaged models. No more 4 dice in ARO - now your remote is stuck dodging, which is never a winning proposition against a Ninja. Your Fiday gets a lot scarier when you know that victims are basically stuck dodging or trying to stab back at -6 to -9 lol

This is just one example. Another is the issue of silhouettes blocking LOF. Against a stack of enemy models, it's possible to glue gun or EM grenade the first guy, then pop the corner and spray everyone else with a Direct Template weapon since they can't see past their own model's silhouette.

Just last night, I had a Barid hacker possess an enemy's TAG in ARO (Overlord) through a repeater mounted to a remote - I mentioned this at the start of the game but it's hard to keep track of all that. Luckily for him, it only cost him a command token because it was in the reactive turn, but that TAG could have gone apeshit and won me the game due to a lucky ARO through a repeater.


Studying the rules will open up tactical options and make you a much better player.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
I'd like to add that Infinity is a rules game - rules open up tactical options that don't exist to a new player who is ignorant of the rules. This is just an example - If your Total Reaction HMGbots are giving the player nightmares then he needs to learn how to use Stealth. Many people don't realize this, but every model with Martial Arts comes with Stealth. If a model with Stealth moves B2B with an enemy model, that enemy model can only attempt CC attack, dodge, and other AROs available to Engaged models. No more 4 dice in ARO - now your remote is stuck dodging, which is never a winning proposition against a Ninja. Your Fiday gets a lot scarier when you know that victims are basically stuck dodging or trying to stab back at -6 to -9 lol

I think you Mistook stealth with Camouflage here. TR REMs usually have a 360° Visor which actually lets them ignore the stealth skill unless the trooper hides in smoke etc.

 Tristan228 wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
I'd like to add that Infinity is a rules game - rules open up tactical options that don't exist to a new player who is ignorant of the rules. This is just an example - If your Total Reaction HMGbots are giving the player nightmares then he needs to learn how to use Stealth. Many people don't realize this, but every model with Martial Arts comes with Stealth. If a model with Stealth moves B2B with an enemy model, that enemy model can only attempt CC attack, dodge, and other AROs available to Engaged models. No more 4 dice in ARO - now your remote is stuck dodging, which is never a winning proposition against a Ninja. Your Fiday gets a lot scarier when you know that victims are basically stuck dodging or trying to stab back at -6 to -9 lol

I think you Mistook stealth with Camouflage here. TR REMs usually have a 360° Visor which actually lets them ignore the stealth skill unless the trooper hides in smoke etc.

Sorry for the confusion - not mistaken, just writing about it in the context of Ninjas / Onis since OP's opponent was playing JSA. Using camo / impersonation / total cover to get close in combination with Stealth lets you get a free swing on the Remote and it can't shoot you. A normal camo marker moving into base to base can still be shot, though it can Surprise Attack without Stealth. Camo lets you get close, but it's the Stealth that prevents the target from shooting back.

http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/Stealth

Allows the user to make Cautious Movements inside the Zone of Control of an enemy.

A trooper with Stealth that declares a Short Movement Skill or Cautious Movement within the Zone of Control of one or more enemies but outside their LoF does not grant AROs to those enemies, even if he reaches base contact with them.

However, if the second Short Skill of the Order is any non-Movement Skill, then those enemies can react normally in ARO.

If the Movement of the trooper with Stealth ends in base to base contact with an enemy and declares any non-Movement Short Skill, then the enemy can only declare CC Attack, Dodge, Reset, or those Skills that can be used in Engaged state.

Said Ninja still has to be outside the REMs LOF which is impossible regarding the 360° visor.
But if you count all MODs in it doesn't really matter if the remote can see the Ninja or not assuming he's still in the Camouflaged state before spending the order neccessary to get into BTB and CC (Range -3, Suprise Attack -6, TO camo -6). The Ninja can actually focus on MA L2 to inflict more damage.

 Nicorex wrote:
Thanks for all the advice guys.
So yesterday I got two games in. A concern/complaint was brought up that I was being "cheesy". Both of my opponents brought "Japanese Sectorals" with multiple ninjas and one with multiple oniwaban and one with a O-yoroi. The first game I won off of kill points, since neither of us were able to pull off any of the mission cards. I won by 7 points. The next game I got pretty luck because he charged multiple guys right into a big knot of my link team and all the specialists that were bunched up to go after the HVT objective.
Also there was a complaint that one of my mini's was holding a sniper rife but he was actually one of my grenade launcher dudes. I just used the model so I would know which guy was "special" but after the game I was informed that I should have told my opponent what the guy really was. He never once asked what he was though.

Please give my list a look see and tell me if I am being uber beardy.
Now this is the list I was using.

Spoiler:

Neoterran Capitaline Army
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

Group 1 8 0 0
BOLT Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 24)
BOLT Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun, Drop Bears / Pistol, Knife. (25)
BOLT Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun, Drop Bears / Pistol, Knife. (25)
BOLT Boarding Shotgun, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (19)
BOLT Boarding Shotgun, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (19)
SIERRA DRONBOT HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
SIERRA DRONBOT HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
FUSILIER Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (10)

Group 2 8 1 0
AUXILIA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (15)
AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (4)
AUXILIA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (15)
AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (4)
FUSILIER Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18)
FUSILIER (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (12)
FUSILIER Combi Rifle + Light Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 14)
FUSILIER Combi Rifle + Light Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 14)
MACHINIST Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (15)
PALBOT Electric Pulse. (3)
PALBOT Electric Pulse. (3)
TRAUMA-DOC Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (14)
WARCOR (Sixth Sense L1) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (3)

6 SWC | 298 Points

Open with Army 5

As others have said, that list isn't, but maybe they were taking offence to proxying without specifying what is what.

If they were specifically talking about lists, people with multiple ninjas/oniwaban need not throw stones in that glass house.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Nicorex wrote:
Thanks for all the advice guys.
So yesterday I got two games in. A concern/complaint was brought up that I was being "cheesy". Both of my opponents brought "Japanese Sectorals" with multiple ninjas and one with multiple oniwaban and one with a O-yoroi. The first game I won off of kill points, since neither of us were able to pull off any of the mission cards. I won by 7 points. The next game I got pretty luck because he charged multiple guys right into a big knot of my link team and all the specialists that were bunched up to go after the HVT objective.
Also there was a complaint that one of my mini's was holding a sniper rife but he was actually one of my grenade launcher dudes. I just used the model so I would know which guy was "special" but after the game I was informed that I should have told my opponent what the guy really was. He never once asked what he was though.

Please give my list a look see and tell me if I am being uber beardy.
Now this is the list I was using.

Spoiler:

Neoterran Capitaline Army
──────────────────────────────────────────────────

Group 1 8 0 0
BOLT Spitfire / Pistol, Knife. (1.5 | 24)
BOLT Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun, Drop Bears / Pistol, Knife. (25)
BOLT Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun, Drop Bears / Pistol, Knife. (25)
BOLT Boarding Shotgun, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (19)
BOLT Boarding Shotgun, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (19)
SIERRA DRONBOT HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
SIERRA DRONBOT HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25)
FUSILIER Lieutenant Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (10)

Group 2 8 1 0
AUXILIA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (15)
AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (4)
AUXILIA (Forward Observer) Combi Rifle + AUXBOT_1 / Pistol, Knife. (15)
AUXBOT_1 Heavy Flamethrower / Electric Pulse. (4)
FUSILIER Hacker (Hacking Device) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 18)
FUSILIER (Forward Observer, Deployable Repeater) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (12)
FUSILIER Combi Rifle + Light Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 14)
FUSILIER Combi Rifle + Light Grenade Launcher / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 14)
MACHINIST Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (15)
PALBOT Electric Pulse. (3)
PALBOT Electric Pulse. (3)
TRAUMA-DOC Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (14)
WARCOR (Sixth Sense L1) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (3)

6 SWC | 298 Points

Open with Army 5

As others have said, that list isn't, but maybe they were taking offence to proxying without specifying what is what.

If they were specifically talking about lists, people with multiple ninjas/oniwaban need not throw stones in that glass house.

Yeah, no. Ninjas as all camo units pay for that ability. But , even they have to spell out every thing on their profile including weapons when the place the model on the table.

OP, right when you put the model on the table you say what the unit it is, what weapons they carries, equipment they have, and every thing else about the unit including stats. In practice the unit, weapons and anything not standard on the base unit.

 Tristan228 wrote:
Said Ninja still has to be outside the REMs LOF which is impossible regarding the 360° visor.
But if you count all MODs in it doesn't really matter if the remote can see the Ninja or not assuming he's still in the Camouflaged state before spending the order neccessary to get into BTB and CC (Range -3, Suprise Attack -6, TO camo -6). The Ninja can actually focus on MA L2 to inflict more damage.

Do you have a ruling on that from FAQ or other clarification? Because it's at odds with the final bullet point in the wiki.

A fairly complex set of rule interactions here I think
Marker state/Stealth/360 Visors & engagement.

I think Nuggz is referring to the last bullet point in the stealth skill and it has made me curious. I had assumed stealth only applies if you remain out of LoF.
However how are the options open to a model that has been engaged from behind/from out of LoF by a stealthy model any different from the options it would have if that model did not have stealth?

I can't see any.

So it raises the question that, with stealth, can you declare a short move in LoF of a model and provided you end that move in the engaged state only grant it the CC,Dodge,reset, engaged ARO options descibed?

We should take this to the rules section as it may not be of interest to Nicorex

Yep, you're right, there's no need for further rule interpreting here.
If Nicorex is still interested in that topic he can read this thread in the international Infinity Forum.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nicorex, your list is quite good but IMO the Spitfire on the Bolt feels like a waste of SWC. Also I think Bolts are better used in a defensive way. In your lineup you can use the Fusiliers more offensive in a 5 person link team, if your Lt dies who cares? Your bolts will still provide you with five regular orders in LOL

The cheesy complaints seem to be the use of 2 360 full reaction remotes and the fact I have 17 orders. That is what i do not understand. I gave up super heavy armored / special skilled guys to have a deeper order pool. I do not find that cheesy myself.

I do appreciate all the advice though.

Mostly because your opponents have to think outside the box Two TR remotes are powerful, indeed, but there is also more than one way to outmanoeuvre them.

 Nicorex wrote:
The cheesy complaints seem to be the use of 2 360 full reaction remotes and the fact I have 17 orders. That is what i do not understand. I gave up super heavy armored / special skilled guys to have a deeper order pool. I do not find that cheesy myself.

I do appreciate all the advice though.

PanO shoots stuff with high BS and lots of guns. That's sort of their schtick. On the other hand, I don't see anything in there with a visor so you're vulnerable to camo, smoke + MSV2, ODD, so on and so forth. It's not cheesy really.

The deep order pool thing...every point you put into cheerleaders is a point you aren't putting into tougher models. Link teams help make up for the apparent weakness of the cheerleaders but you'll be spending command tokens galore to shift your links if you want to alternate between Fusiliers / Bolts.

It's definitely a hard list but it's not like you're running some of the combos that people often cite as rage-quit-worthy.

 Nicorex wrote:
The cheesy complaints seem to be the use of 2 360 full reaction remotes and the fact I have 17 orders. That is what i do not understand. I gave up super heavy armored / special skilled guys to have a deeper order pool. I do not find that cheesy myself.

I do appreciate all the advice though.

Hopefully they will eventually see there are pros and cons to both large pools of cheap troops and small order pools of quality troops and infinity list writing is partly about finding the right balance between the 2 and then having to find out how to make that work on the table.
Show them the way! Challenge them to run the 2xTR REMS and then demonstrate how, with a well placed Hexa, it can be impossible for the REMS to even hit you.
TO is so OP!!

 Tristan228 wrote:
Mostly because your opponents have to think outside the box Two TR remotes are powerful, indeed, but there is also more than one way to outmanoeuvre them.

Would be greatful for any tips....!

Those things are absolute bastards - only luck I have had against them is with very long range sniper fire and suicide drop troops, both of which are a long way from guaranteed!

Smoke combo is a horrible thing I hate with all my soul, but works.
20- cm Camo/TO shotgun or 80+cm Camo/TO Sniper work quite well too.
Coordinated orders work too, if you are willing to lose one of the guys.

 Pacific wrote:

 Tristan228 wrote:
Mostly because your opponents have to think outside the box Two TR remotes are powerful, indeed, but there is also more than one way to outmanoeuvre them.

Would be greatful for any tips....!

Those things are absolute bastards - only luck I have had against them is with very long range sniper fire and suicide drop troops, both of which are a long way from guaranteed!

Dunno what faction you play. But if you can get any camoed troopers or a decent linked trooper with MSRs than your chances are quite high to kill it with one order. For example a Zero with MSR in cover and outside 32" generates a MOD of BS-9 with surprise shot even BS -12. So bsically the same aldo wrote before Also ODD will work great, making the Reverend Moira pretty effective - also you might get bonuses from linking too.

Another a nice tactic: use any missile launcher while being in cover and outside 32" still gives a BS -6 MOD. With assisted fire your remote generlly shoots with BS 15 against 4x BS 5.