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 Brennonjw wrote:

 conker249 wrote:

 Toofast wrote:

 hanshotfirst wrote:
There was a HH event near where i lived that was right after BAC hit and it was 4 people who had actual armies and 5 people with chinacast stuff and 21 people who had 2-3 BAC and some converted 40k stuff

This is what I dislike about BaC. 30k used to be reserved for really well painted FW armies showcasing a diversity of units and tactics. Now it's turning into little Timmy with his 2 box sets and some rhinos, hastily assembled and maybe primed.

Is this the normal thinking process of 30k players? Sneering at player B for using BaC Starter sets and loving Player A for buying FW instead? Or is it more of having a painted army? Confused on some people sounding "elitist" and others just being happy that are more players.

Personally for me: It's neither. My issue with BaC isn't that it's cheap or "not forge world" but that it brought a lot of the ideals from 40k over to 30k. Since Calth was released, I've seen more and more people telling others that they should go the "This is the single best unit, and you should have 20" approach, instead of the "older" common opinion that people should go fluffy, or lists that are fun/looks cool to them.

I'm glad that there are more 30k players, but I'm not glad that it seems like a lot of these newer players are bringing over the 40k list building ideas of "min-max so you can bring more game-winning cheese" I'm not to glad to see so many newer players rush to, and stick with, pride of the legion for no reason other then "I can use these guys with 40k AND it lets me bring more spartans/typhons/fire raptor equivalent"

Don't have a fully painted army? oh well, neither is mine, let's game. What's that? Your list is a few vet. tactical squads, and 18 quad mortars (stand in for OP unit)? "fun"

Fully agreed OP. 30K should be about brother versus brother in some of the most destructive battles in Imperial history. If your only goal is to bring the cheesiest list with the least amount of "Troops tax" then you have missed the point of the game entirely.

HH seems to have a strong historical element to it. For a time, players focused on fluffy lists that best represent their legions.

Now you're seeing a lot of people just plugging lists full of sicarians and any other maximally optimal units, regardless of the background of the legions. It's started to dilute/eliminate the historical gaming aspect of 30k and cause it to be more reminiscent of 40k. Which seems sad, seeing as people moved to 30k specifically to get away from 40k's woes.

Sadly, I think I may be a part of the problem, as it where. I do try to possibly over-optimize my lists, although that comes in part with the fact that I can't read the fluff on my I-phone and don't have a physical book copy to read off of. Though, I would like to think I'm doing a little better than most, in that I'm playing the game more for rool of cool and the fact that it has much better balance than 40k, and as-so-far has been a lot more fun. Like, yeah I like to bring dreadnaughts, their cool and heavy conversion beamers are always fun, And yes sometimes I will take PotL, but really only as IW so my deepstriking Termies with Perturabo and my Pinning Sniper HB Vets can be troops. But, those things also come with a certain level of negative connotation as my lists end up being less fun for my opponent. I think it comes down to why you want to play, and if you find people telling you to only use the best, you can always beat them with a more fluffy, original list and show them why their wrong! Or, you know, ignore them. either way works

Thank you all for the responses, Makes more sense now that I understand it is not "elitism". Its seems more what I want out of 30k, people playing an army because they want to play "their" legion. Seems like Historicals when done right, right?

I'm not trying to be elitist but when most of the armies you see consist of the same exact models as their core, it's going to get boring. I haven't seen a single BaC set locally that was assembled with any FW parts to make them look like the legion they're supposed to represent. I understand that cost is an issue for some people but it would be nice to see actual legion parts thrown in here and there to break up the monotony of 20 BaC armies. One of the only downsides to 30k was the lack of diversity, not necessarily in playstyles but in models seen on the table. This is one of the main reasons I chose Ad Mech for my 30k army, it's nice to break up the marine vs marine thing and I can still ally in if I want to get my power armor fix. BaC will ensure that nearly everyone is just using marines because it's so much cheaper than doing Ad Mech or solar auxilia. If they do something similar for the other 30k armies in the future I might not have such an issue with it. Considering the success of BaC by most accounts, I'm sure gw will try to capitalize on it as much as possible.

When I saw PotL I thought it was a flavourful way of making an elite army, and given that I prefer to spend lots of effort on a few models over painting more models I thought it'd fit me perfectly.

I certainly didn't expect it to become the cookie cutter choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Accolade wrote:
HH seems to have a strong historical element to it. For a time, players focused on fluffy lists that best represent their legions.

Now you're seeing a lot of people just plugging lists full of sicarians and any other maximally optimal units, regardless of the background of the legions. It's started to dilute/eliminate the historical gaming aspect of 30k and cause it to be more reminiscent of 40k. Which seems sad, seeing as people moved to 30k specifically to get away from 40k's woes.

True words.

 conker249 wrote:
Thank you all for the responses, Makes more sense now that I understand it is not "elitism". Its seems more what I want out of 30k, people playing an army because they want to play "their" legion. Seems like Historicals when done right, right?

Yeah man, spot on!

Oh, and welcome to the beautiful game!

I play 30k for the fluff, but I have no issue with people rocking the BaC as a starter.

I run my Luna Wolves fully fluff. Big tactics squads, drop pods and Reavers to encircle and destroy the command units.

 Toofast wrote:
I'm not trying to be elitist but

But you managed to muddle on through, must've been tough there bud.

It's really seeming like anything to do with 30k must be a spending competition. I've sat down with my BaC box and tools planning to plasticard my way to a IW force. Am I now going to have to deal with grognards looking down at me because I didn't want to spend my money on extra resin bits so my little plastic dudes fit more with their headcanon?

Am I going to have to justify my use of PotL everytime as my force is supposed to be the lads used in the breach assault where the 4th exploit a hole in the wall to go on their murderspree and I'd kinda like to keep the elites slots for dreads as I can't imagine the IW being without a great deal of the great metal buggers.

And to round off this rant - stop saying to people that they should just stop using "it's too expensive" as a reason to avoid getting certain units. we have to much pigeonholing and other stuff going on to also be having a go at people who just can't afford or justify spending on FW.

Speaking of muddled, it seems like we have complaints that powergaming is creeping into 30K on one hand, and complaints about seeing PotL-based armies using the Calth set on the other. I don't see these as related...? The Calth set doesn't exactly give you a powergamey army, PotL or not.

And regarding attitudes in general, if you see players new to 30K "doing it wrong," then take some time and show them the right way...constructively.

 Zaku212 wrote:

 Toofast wrote:
I'm not trying to be elitist but

But you managed to muddle on through, must've been tough there bud.

It's really seeming like anything to do with 30k must be a spending competition. I've sat down with my BaC box and tools planning to plasticard my way to a IW force. Am I now going to have to deal with grognards looking down at me because I didn't want to spend my money on extra resin bits so my little plastic dudes fit more with their headcanon?

Am I going to have to justify my use of PotL everytime as my force is supposed to be the lads used in the breach assault where the 4th exploit a hole in the wall to go on their murderspree and I'd kinda like to keep the elites slots for dreads as I can't imagine the IW being without a great deal of the great metal buggers.

And to round off this rant - stop saying to people that they should just stop using "it's too expensive" as a reason to avoid getting certain units. we have to much pigeonholing and other stuff going on to also be having a go at people who just can't afford or justify spending on FW.

I'm not sure if that included me, but my issue isn't with pride of the legion (in fact, I like PotL if you have a fluffy reason), or being pissy that there's not FW in your army, but the fact that power gaming seems to be coming over more noticably, namely in the fact that I've seen a lot of people building what's basically a 40k list without the master of relics. "Here's my minimum number of troops so I can maximize sicarians, fire raptors, and other "Super strong" units. I agree with you that people whining about not use FW bits or only using calth is dumb.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gorgon wrote:
Speaking of muddled, it seems like we have complaints that powergaming is creeping into 30K on one hand, and complaints about seeing PotL-based armies using the Calth set on the other. I don't see these as related...? The Calth set doesn't exactly give you a powergamey army, PotL or not.

And regarding attitudes in general, if you see players new to 30K "doing it wrong," then take some time and show them the right way...constructively.

the relation I drew that tied in Calth was the fact that it was the "entry point" for a lot of the new people building the PotL lists that are just 40k armies. "pride of the legion with a chain-fist praetor, chaplain, 2 5 or 10 man vets. and then all the big vehicles in lower-then-normal point lists." Seems like it kinda is silly (especially since 95% of all competitive tournaments don't allow 30k, so why bring this kind of list unless your local group is always competative, all the time?)

Along the vein of the three so far

What legion would you consider the following

Praetor with paragon blade
3x15 man tacticals with free ccw, power axe sarge
2 ccw contemptors.
That's the core, so what army fits that theme.

Then
Legion champion
Liby
Praetor, termy armour, paragon blade
10 termies
2x10 vets
3 volkite support squads
Leviathan
2 dual volkite dreads
Doredo
Spartan
Stubborn Legion trait

Basically without giving away the Legion specific units, fluff wise, what legions are these would you say?

World eaters first?
Dark angels second maybe?

 SirDonlad wrote:
World eaters first?
Dark angels second maybe?

Spot on, and no cheese, both heavily themed.

 Formosa wrote:

 SirDonlad wrote:
World eaters first?
Dark angels second maybe?

Spot on, and no cheese, both heavily themed.

...I am entirely surprised i got the first one right. Second one flew right over my head, but sweet!

Only PotL -lists I have seen/heard in Finland are All termies list, like the IW army our TO used in last tournament, which had 2 units of termies, one special termie unit, prospero, 2 comptemptors and 2 droppods of some type.

Lot of players here have buyed Calth box, but about all want to play 30k because it is not 40k, so no formations and it's balanced and way cooler.

WE army I'm building will only have couple FW models, jetbikes. All others are Calth models and converted from 40k models. Partly because I don't have money to buy lots of FW stuff, but mostly because I love converting and sculpting, plus I need more experience in sculpting.

I love the BaC sets. I buy the legion specific upgrades for SoH, all have the Pauldrons, and unique heads. which make the models pop in my opinion. I love transfers, but I use those mainly for vehicles and Generic Dreadnoughts.