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Or are Space Marines with their grav guns still top dog?

Tau codex didn't even change - the only good thing they got going is their overwatch.

DorianGray wrote:
Tau codex didn't even change - the only good thing they got going is their overwatch.

This statement is just false. If this is what you think you clearly don't know what Tau do and what Tau got with their new update

DorianGray wrote:
Or are Space Marines with their grav guns still top dog?

Tau codex didn't even change - the only good thing they got going is their overwatch.

Lots and Lots of new stuff, formations - some broken, some not.

Its a 7.5 Edition Codex

Tau was already a 1.5 Tier army before the update that consistently had a 50% or better win rate, even in the NOVA Open the second place list was majority Tau with some Eldar.

Now if you take that powerful army, that is already almost a tier 1 list, and give them new weapons and formations, they'll be just that much stronger as they didn't need anything more than that.

Tau is now certainly up there in terms of not only power, but also options when building a list.

I would rank them 4th overall assuming building Max cheese behind eldar marines and necrons.

Tau are insane now. With how slow the 40k tournament world is we're still waiting to see how good, but I've seen numerous batreps with them winning or only narrowly losing and this is with people who aren't familiar with them.

Give it a few more months and we'll start seeing more tournament results and we can start dissecting where they stand. Definitely top tier though, but not on top that's Eldar. I would place them ahead of marines personally though and maybe ahead of Necrons.

Indeed, a handful of cool new formations, a VERY flexible Decurion build and the ability to leverage markerlights across multiple units... My first [and only, thus far] game against them was a complete curb-stomp of myself [Ultramarines].

I learned some lessons, of course, but man oh man... giving Ignores cover and +3 BS to 6 units? Wow. Just ka-blamo. I mean, we tied because Maelstrom, but I had 2 assault terminators and a librarian left, at 1850 points. I typically end the game with a great deal more than that, even if I'm getting spanked.

Definitely in the Eldar / Necrons / SM teir. With only one game, I'm not sure where in the "Elite" codices they rank, but certainly a member of the cool-kids crew.

tau players are only top tier in the amount of hate that we get.
(after all, just look at some recent ITC votes, 'RAW? why?' (CFP))
**ducks for cover**

While I do think that the Tau strength is dependent on what rule set you are using (much like marines), they are a very strong dex.

It's probably a toss up between Marines, Eldar, and Tau for strongest codex. Partly this depends on what your definition of "strongest" is.

If by strongest you mean "What is the average power level of the unit choices within the dex?" then no, Tau are not the strongest. I would say it goes Eldar, Tau, Marines (marines have a decent amount of bad units).

If by strongest you mean "What is the strength of the top choices in the dex?" then I don't think so, but I remain less confident. I think it goes Marines, Eldar, Tau but this is the least confident I am about these rankings.

If by strongest you mean "If I go all out and abuse formations and allies, what codex has the strongest army list", then possibly. It's a toss up between Marines/Tau, and then Eldar now.

This is IMO, and I'm not super confident since I don't have much experience with the new Tau formations yet. My main point is that people are coming from different view points from a "strength" perspective.

 Gamgee wrote:
Tau are insane now. With how slow the 40k tournament world is we're still waiting to see how good,

The tournament scene in 40k is basically a glacier compared to the MtG scene which still at times takes over a year to discover the best strategies while worse strategies are considered the best for a long time.

Heck, I recently took a look at the Air Superiority Cadre and came to the conclusion it was actually competitively playable because the points and fire power wasn't that bad. Yes, it's not the best point values, but it's still very reasonable, so it will never be a general list choice but it could find a niche as a result, and we haven't seen anyone even pick it up in a competitive bat rep yet. It's such a different tactic and we haven't seen it at all, that's baffling.

text removed.

Reds8n

Tau is in the top 4. Not equal to Eldar though.

Depends a lot on builds aswell. A rushy Necron list with a lot of Wraiths or a simiiliar list with a million alpha strikes can be a nightmare for Tau. Eldar are just... Eldar.

Tau are in a good spot right now, and designed to punish deathstars and superheavies, who are still very popular.

The don't work quite as well against MSU armies though, and Gladius IS a thing, and as an army revolving around kill power over position holding, decurion is a though game, so it's not like they got no bad match ups.

And there is Eldar.

Overall, Tau are incredibly strong, but the current top dogs are their bad matches, leaving them behind a bit.

Tau and their ability to spam really potent things like Riptides (Riptide Wing can field NINE of the suckers) are very very strong. Like Top 3 strong. I would say they are about equal with Eldar since they can counter nearly everything Eldar can bring. Eldar edge them out as nearly everything in their codex is good or better. The other top army is between Space Marines (so much free stuff) and Necrons (end the game with no lost models).

As already said, Tau is back in the top 4 with Eldar, SM, and Necrons.

 Tinkrr wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Tau are insane now. With how slow the 40k tournament world is we're still waiting to see how good,

The tournament scene in 40k is basically a glacier compared to the MtG scene which still at times takes over a year to discover the best strategies while worse strategies are considered the best for a long time.

Heck, I recently took a look at the Air Superiority Cadre and came to the conclusion it was actually competitively playable because the points and fire power wasn't that bad. Yes, it's not the best point values, but it's still very reasonable, so it will never be a general list choice but it could find a niche as a result, and we haven't seen anyone even pick it up in a competitive bat rep yet. It's such a different tactic and we haven't seen it at all, that's baffling.

Agreed on that. With magic you could expect a few people to have decks designed around the sweet new mechanic out of the new set a week after it drops. A few hours of play with it can give them upwards of 30 games worth of experience to learn where to tinker. Source: been a magic tourney player/occasional DCI judge/occasional TO since mirage block.

With 40k's modeling and painting aspects, 3 hour single games, and the SIGNIFICANTLY smaller playerbase, it takes a LOT longer for the meta to shake around. I do find it hilarious when people get confused as to why the new OP thing isn't winning all over everywhere 5 seconds after the codex drops.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Tau are insane now. With how slow the 40k tournament world is we're still waiting to see how good,

The tournament scene in 40k is basically a glacier compared to the MtG scene which still at times takes over a year to discover the best strategies while worse strategies are considered the best for a long time.

Heck, I recently took a look at the Air Superiority Cadre and came to the conclusion it was actually competitively playable because the points and fire power wasn't that bad. Yes, it's not the best point values, but it's still very reasonable, so it will never be a general list choice but it could find a niche as a result, and we haven't seen anyone even pick it up in a competitive bat rep yet. It's such a different tactic and we haven't seen it at all, that's baffling.

Agreed on that. With magic you could expect a few people to have decks designed around the sweet new mechanic out of the new set a week after it drops. A few hours of play with it can give them upwards of 30 games worth of experience to learn where to tinker. Source: been a magic tourney player/occasional DCI judge/occasional TO since mirage block.

With 40k's modeling and painting aspects, 3 hour single games, and the SIGNIFICANTLY smaller playerbase, it takes a LOT longer for the meta to shake around. I do find it hilarious when people get confused as to why the new OP thing isn't winning all over everywhere 5 seconds after the codex drops.

Hey, me too, well not since Mirage but plenty enough. I remember doing testing with PTQ grinders and we'd have every deck in the meta proxied up and play something like fifty games before swapping out cards in a deck. Guess it was worth it though as a good chunk of those people made it to the Pro Tour. Don't forget that tournaments for Magic also have a lot more players than 40k, the LVO has what 500 in their main event? The Vegas modern masters GP I went to had just shy of 5000. That's not to belittle them by any means just to show scale.

I don't think there is only 1 top tier army. Space Marines, Eldar, Necrons, and Tau are all top tier, but for different reasons.

But yeah, Tau were, and still are, among the top dogs.

Tau were the Top Mid Tier army before the update and now are up there Behind Eldar, Necrons & Space Marines/Imperials so it could be argued that individual Formations and attachments are stronger than others and that goes for all of the new Codexs.

I think Tau is top tier. Taking tau by no means is an instant victory. In fact I will go out and say that it is really easy to lose a game playing Tau wrong. You need a good sense of target priority and table positioning. Without good management in these areas, it doesn't matter how many riptides you have on the table or fancy formations. It is also very easy for inexperienced Tau players to use too many toys. A top tier Tau army comes down to just as much the player as it does the list.

Tinkrr wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Tau are insane now. With how slow the 40k tournament world is we're still waiting to see how good,

Heck, I recently took a look at the Air Superiority Cadre and came to the conclusion it was actually competitively playable because the points and fire power wasn't that bad. Yes, it's not the best point values, but it's still very reasonable, so it will never be a general list choice but it could find a niche as a result, and we haven't seen anyone even pick it up in a competitive bat rep yet. It's such a different tactic and we haven't seen it at all, that's baffling.

This formation is incredibly underrated. The main issue is... 150 for a flyer that isn't top ace. The formation gives them that push they needed. The d3 free markerlights let them fuel themselves for seeker missles.

Flyers first must be able to clear their own airspace; Second, help with ground targets.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Should also note this Tau flyer formation is the same cost or slightly more than the Crimson Death (if that is the name?)... I am considering running that as an allied formation sometime for fun.. I think it would be much move devastating.

well currently at my store we have a tau vs imperial campaign, my store manager had to stack the deck for the imperials for the tau to not have a 32+/0 win rate right now.

granted this is just a campaign and not a tournament and we have a few new imperial players but thats beyond the point. tau are winning at a rate of 4:1 against a variety of armies collectively. thats just.. bananas

We have maybe 2 Tau players that actively play tau (and not just collect), and our win rate is probably 60%

That said, I don't run a Hunter Contingent / riptide wing / multi stormsurges xD

What does your local meta look like with the 60% win rate? Is it Centstar marines or more Dread Mob orks?

I have 1 Tau player that actively plays, but he's hardly won any games, even when he doesn't use Kroot and casual infantry/suit lists.

Akiasura wrote:
What does your local meta look like with the 60% win rate? Is it Centstar marines or more Dread Mob orks?

We cover pretty much the full spectrum. Eldar, Necrons, SM, Nids, Demons, Chaos, BA, GK, Orks, Mechanicus, Dark Eldar... probably missing some.

Win rate is a combination of things. 40k is much a game of rock papers scissors, if you bring rock and your opponent paper.. there is not much to do. There are also variables to rolling mission types. Maelstrom is fun, probably my favorite, but sometimes you pull all the wrong cards and there is no strategy to make up for that.

I have played maybe 12 games myself with my new Tau, trying a variety of lists (to test all the new things!) I have lost to the following:

Maelstrom - Chaos (dogstar, 3 defiliers, 2 maulerfiends, D-Thirster, random other guys).. this was an amazing game and was my first time using the Montka stuff. I lost by 1 point. Slaughter all around, Khorne was pleased.

2x (maelstrom, eternal lwar) White Scars - (MSU grav and scout spam)... Ran Cads, and with dedicated transports and combat squads, has something like 20 objective secured units.. Again a slaughter all around, but lost to objectives. My friend and I have been butting heads for so many games, we have never had a bad game, win or lose. His Scars are tough.

Kill points - Demons (60 cc rending troops, 6 soul grinders, 2 horror summoning engines).. absolutely disgusting and much more difficult than you would think.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
What does your local meta look like with the 60% win rate? Is it Centstar marines or more Dread Mob orks?

We cover pretty much the full spectrum. Eldar, Necrons, SM, Nids, Demons, Chaos, BA, GK, Orks, Mechanicus, Dark Eldar... probably missing some.

Ah okay. I just wanted to ask, since it seems that people rarely mention what level their local meta is at and it adds some context to what their win rate really reflects.
Thank you.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

Win rate is a combination of things. 40k is much a game of rock papers scissors, if you bring rock and your opponent paper.. there is not much to do.

Very much agreed. Skill with the game is important, but unless both people are playing tactical nukes it really comes down to list building.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

There are also variables to rolling mission types. Maelstrom is fun, probably my favorite, but sometimes you pull all the wrong cards and there is no strategy to make up for that.

Yeah, that's my biggest problem with Maelstrom missions personally. Do you guys use the houserule where you can draw new cards if the current ones are impossible?

 Grizzyzz wrote:

I have played maybe 12 games myself with my new Tau, trying a variety of lists (to test all the new things!) I have lost to the following:

Maelstrom - Chaos (dogstar, 3 defiliers, 2 maulerfiends, D-Thirster, random other guys).. this was an amazing game and was my first time using the Montka stuff. I lost by 1 point. Slaughter all around, Khorne was pleased.

Sorry, was this CSM or Daemons, or a combination of both? It's hard to tell from what the lists, though the list seems like a solid saturation list.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

2x (maelstrom, eternal lwar) White Scars - (MSU grav and scout spam)... Ran Cads, and with dedicated transports and combat squads, has something like 20 objective secured units.. Again a slaughter all around, but lost to objectives. My friend and I have been butting heads for so many games, we have never had a bad game, win or lose. His Scars are tough.

Scars are up there for the best list marines have outside of formation. Sounds like a good game. I hate facing grav weapons, but I gotta say I pack a ton into my loyalist lists.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

Kill points - Demons (60 cc rending troops, 6 soul grinders, 2 horror summoning engines).. absolutely disgusting and much more difficult than you would think.

Reading that it does sound tough. I think the only viable CC heavy lists this edition are daemons, necrons, and sw. Daemons have some crazy CC stuff that can be made very tough, or incredibly fast.
The horror summoning is a little hit or miss I find. Either it steam rolls the enemy because they lack anti-infantry weapons or gets rolled because the summoning rate isn't high enough.

I do love recursion. I play pSkarre in WMH just so I can do recursion

Akiasura wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

There are also variables to rolling mission types. Maelstrom is fun, probably my favorite, but sometimes you pull all the wrong cards and there is no strategy to make up for that.

Yeah, that's my biggest problem with Maelstrom missions personally. Do you guys use the houserule where you can draw new cards if the current ones are impossible?

yes, generally speaking, if you draw (kill a flyer, do psychic etc) and there are none, don't have any, etc... we allow redraws. otherwise it just increases that scoring gap.

Akiasura wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

I have played maybe 12 games myself with my new Tau, trying a variety of lists (to test all the new things!) I have lost to the following:

Maelstrom - Chaos (dogstar, 3 defiliers, 2 maulerfiends, D-Thirster, random other guys).. this was an amazing game and was my first time using the Montka stuff. I lost by 1 point. Slaughter all around, Khorne was pleased.

Sorry, was this CSM or Daemons, or a combination of both? It's hard to tell from what the lists, though the list seems like a solid saturation list.

Yeah my apologies if I have some names wrong, I dont' play chaos often. it was full chaos pretty sure! extra stuff included bloodletters. The dogstar was the chaos centaur looking lord with like 12ish dogs or something.. maybe more don't remember XD Oh he also had a Helldrake!

Turn 2 my Retaliation cadre dropped in, and I took out 2 defilers, D-Thirster, helldrake, 2 Bloodletter units. By the end of the game I had more guys left, but he was able to score some nice early points. This was won of those bad draw games. his dog-star did work though, they alone took out a unit or more a turn (multi charge).

Akiasura wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

Kill points - Demons (60 cc rending troops, 6 soul grinders, 2 horror summoning engines).. absolutely disgusting and much more difficult than you would think.

Reading that it does sound tough. I think the only viable CC heavy lists this edition are daemons, necrons, and sw. Daemons have some crazy CC stuff that can be made very tough, or incredibly fast.
The horror summoning is a little hit or miss I find. Either it steam rolls the enemy because they lack anti-infantry weapons or gets rolled because the summoning rate isn't high enough.

What makes this list difficult is target priority. the soul-grinders are deceptively difficult because AV13.. and there are SIX! So you decide to target the grinders, and you have demons in your face charging turn 2. Or you go after demons and the grinders just slowly widdle down your units that can then handle the demons. Meanwhile the horrors are sitting in the back just doing summoning things. I thought I had this in the bag going in, and it was much more difficult then I expected. Definitely want a rematch at some point!

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Tau and their ability to spam really potent things like Riptides (Riptide Wing can field NINE of the suckers) are very very strong. Like Top 3 strong. I would say they are about equal with Eldar since they can counter nearly everything Eldar can bring. Eldar edge them out as nearly everything in their codex is good or better. The other top army is between Space Marines (so much free stuff) and Necrons (end the game with no lost models).

There is a big difference between ranking how good an army is as a whole, and how good an army is with a spam tournament list. No one is going to use 9 riptides in a normal match. Only hyper competitive tournament players would even think of using that. So yeah If you brought 9 riptides or something then Tau may be top dog. But if you look at it in terms of complete army without spam, Tau are definitely beaten by elder whom nearly every single unit in the codex is great and probably Necrons with their 4+ RP and SM using gladius (which is also kind spammy though)

I would say that depending on people not bringing what's best in their codex, and using that as a benchmark of what codex is strong or weak is an iffy comparison. Most people who play 40k now look objectively through their codex, and build lists with what is the best value for their points. Even friendly games now have to be semi-competitive lists (unless you talk it out with your opponent pre-list building phase), because there's such a wide gap between what units/formations are good and what's garbage. Not saying that's how I like the game to be (I would really rather 1850 points of X army to be roughly equivalent to 1850 points of Y army) but that's just how 40k plays now.

notredameguy10 wrote:
Tau are definitely beaten by elder whom nearly every single unit in the codex is great

Eldar have good stuff in the codex. They also have howling banshees, striking scorpions, falcons, Prince Yriel, Illic Nightbringer, foot and storm guardians, etc. Not everything in the eldar codex is amazing and pays its points back... just kinda a rant of mine and not necessarily directed just at your post.

Tau have always been a powerful army on the tabletop. With the release of their new codex, they are most definitely a top-tier army, even with some tournament groups nerfing their Combined Firepower rule.