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2016/01/13 11:16:55
Subject: Re:Swedish Police Accused of Covering Up Sex Crimes at Festival
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Mainly because I'm spending my time asking you for sources. I'm not the one making claims about things in this thread, and you'll note that I actually provided a source when I did.
You didn't source where I said this was the fault of Syrian migrants. You haven't sourced anything I said directly, in fact.
I literally quoted you. How much more direct of a source can I make it?
To quote the guy in charge of the operation (Peter Ågren, if you're wondering who to be angry at):
Det här är en öm punkt, vi vågar ibland inte säga som det är för att vi tror att det spelar Sverigedemokraterna i händerna. Vi får ta på oss det här inom polisen.
Second post, quote of a "Peter Ågren" without indicating where the quote is from. I've seen the same quote in other places, so odds are it's accurate, but you really should indicate where it's from.
It doesn't help that any migrant in Sweden can claim they are 12 and therefore not be able to be detained for crimes committed. Like these guys who claim they're 14 in the left hand photo and 16 in the right hand one (he is actually racing those kids, and the journalists gave him the teddy bear to try to make him look younger):
Third post, link to two images without source, making an unsubstantiated claim. I called you on that
Howard A Treesong wrote: Depending on what sources of news you look at show different proportions of men. Some photos show crowds that are overwhelmingly young men, yet other parts of the media disproportionately only show families and children. There's so much propaganda being used to fit a certain narrative.
The actual statistics suggest that it's 76% men, 15% women and the rest are "children and others". Since children can apparently include 30-year-old men, it'd probably be best to assume it's 85% men.
Da Boss wrote: I saw some numbers (sorry, I can't remember where) that suggested it was roughly a 50/50 split between young men and families.
They're lies.
Fourth post, more allegations without providing a source, and declaring that an unknown source is lies without knowing anything about this nebulous source other than the fact that it supposedly disagreed with your perception of the world.
You do realise that the Swedish government years ago made it illegal to report ethnicity and immigration status statistics in their crime data because so many rapes were being committed by migrants, right? It was something ridiculous like 21 rapes by a migrant compared to 1 rape by a Swedish man and the amount of migrants was much lower back then, too.
Fifth post, still no sourcing on your "factual" claims.
You do realise that the Swedish government years ago made it illegal to report ethnicity and immigration status statistics in their crime data because so many rapes were being committed by migrants, right? It was something ridiculous like 21 rapes by a migrant compared to 1 rape by a Swedish man and the amount of migrants was much lower back then, too.
A statistic that will be easy to back up, I'm sure...
6th post, and a link to a Wikipedia source that doesn't say anything about the supposed illegality of reporting ethnicity and immigration status. It's also exceedingly poor form to link someone to an entire page without specifying where in the page the relevant material can be found (for future reference, it's footnote 18). Otherwise correct, the source Wikipedia lists does say what Wikipedia claims it does.
nullBolt wrote: [
The report also states that Muslim African immigrants have the highest overall rate statistics with a rape average of 23 times the Swedish average.
Still 6th post, wrong. The actual figure in the report (page 99) is 17.5, not 23. Still way higher than comfortable, obviously.
Forty years after the Swedish parliament unanimously decided to change the formerly homogenous Sweden into a multicultural country, violent crime has increased by 300% and rapes by 1,472%. Sweden is now number two on the list of rape countries, surpassed only by Lesotho in Southern Africa.
Keep in mind that in EVERY OTHER WESTERN COUNTRY rape statistics have dropped or stayed steady and you should really start to wonder a bit.
Still 6th post. Your own Wikipedia page should've explained to you why international comparsions on rape statistics is really hard, but that wouldn't fit your narrative, would it? Gatestone Institute simply dismisses the fact that Sweden has what is possibly the widest definition of rape in the world so they can focus on bashing immigrants. They're a joke source, and you should be ashamed for using them as a source at all. You also didn't provide a source on the claim that every other western country has seen reductions in "rape statistics" (without defining what you mean by that).
Further, your source, the Gatestone Institute, cites the oh-so-reputable "Granskning Sverige", who're notorious for such nice things as Holocaust denial.
d-usa wrote: 1. You would do well to ignore Gatestone Institute.
2. Sweden changed the laws to count more things as rape than most other countries, and once something is reported as rape it is forever reported as rape even if the investigation ends up proving that no rape was committed. That info is even in the article you linked.
1. Why? Because you disagree with them? Just because you dislike a fact doesn't make it not true, it just makes you delusional.
2. And? That doesn't account for a 1472% increase in rapes. It would, maybe, double the number of rapes. Almost a fifteen hundred percent increase suggests an epidemic. Nevermind violent crime increasing by 300%.
Still 7th post, and you're again making claims without backing them up. Starting off, the Gatestone Institute page doesn't actually provide a source for it's 1975 figure of 421 rapes. Secondly, you just assume that you're right about the figures without providing any reasoning whatsoever, and flat-out contradicting yourowndamnsources. You've taken it upon yourself to be an expert in the field, because the people who work in the field obviously don't know what they're talking about, do they?
You do realise that a lot of the sexual asaults and rapes in Sweden are committed by "underage migrants" (men who claimed to be 12 when they're quite blatantly full grown adults).
Convictions are meaningless in Sweden. Jesus, look at the thing that started this which is literally the police covering up the sexual assault of minors and letting everyone who did it just LEAVE. The police and the Swedish government actively manipulate and cover up statistics to make the problem not look as bad as what they want.
Also, look up Rotherham. See what the future is.
Here's the Swedish Prime Minister visiting a refugee children's home:
Post 8 and, apart from actually linking the correct source instead of the entire Wikipedia page, you're making unsubstantiated allegations again, and now claiming that the statistics don't matter because they're being manipulated. How, then, do you know that the incidence of rape is higher in immigrants? After all, your own statistics are supposedly manipulated.
Yodhrin wrote: Which is of course hilarious ignorance, not an unusual quality in cases like this. Big incidents like this always skew public opinion, but the reality on the ground whether you're disabled/mentally ill, an immigrant, or a smaller religious group is you're far more likely statistically(per-capita) to be a victim of crime than a perpetrator.
But people robbing the mentally ill, beating the crippled, and abusing brown folk isn't news, much rarer incidents of brown folk abusing white girls or mentally ill folk going mental with a weapon evidently are. At least according to the folk who own the newspapers.
Go look up Rotherham, man.
Post 9, "I can't be bothered backing my arguments up, or even explaining what I think this means".
The following posts are mostly a bunch of thinly veiled attacks on me, with the exception of one valid link to a Danish newspaper that didn't quite agree with your conclusions.
In conclusion, you post sources that "support" you when you think you can, and just post stuff anyway if you can't. You mix in a bunch of ad hominems and accusations of me being misled based on my nationality, and then drop this gem
People are never receptive to opposing viewpoints in a discussion. The goal is to convince everyone else who is reading. AlmightyWalrus is too emotionally invested to change his opinion.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Ad hominem, but you'll note that I'm not blaming that on Germans as a group. You're not making a very good attempt at hiding the fact that you're treating people differently based on their nationality.
Good thing you're not, because I'm not German.
What, exactly, is wrong with treating people differently based on their nationality? Isn't this part of the whole equity deal you kind of people like to chat about?
How is it equity to assume people are a certain way because they're from a certain country? That's completely crazy.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: The article you linked itself points out how the tests are inaccurate and shouldn't ever be used as stand-alone evidence (see below). If the age range is 16-20, then what? You still haven't explained how you can tell a person's "true" age just by looking at a photograph of them.
So when the police ask you to identify someone's age, you just say, "I DONT KNOW MR POLICEMAN I'M NOT PSYCHIC SIR"? Genuinely, your logic is nonsense. But then again, I'm not shocked considering how awful your logic was in the last thread about this sort of thing.
I said it's not completely accurate but that it allows for identification of some sort of age range. Maybe they should have passports or birth certificates?
Another ad hominem. You certainly seem to be a psychic though, seeing as you're apparently capable of deciding someone's age based on a photograph. What if they don't have any documents because they were a tad busy fleeing from being bombed to tiny pieces? Again, what happens if the age range is 16-20?
AlmightyWalrus wrote: And what exactly is the argument you're making? You've just told people to "look it up" and then not bothered to explain WHY. Yes, it's a case of immigrants sexually abusing children. What's your point?
My point is that it's endemic, kiddo. Factual evidence. Hard evidence. True evidence.
If you're arguing that sexual violence is endemic then I'd agree. Interestingly enough, though, it seems to be endemic all over the world.
If it's that bad of a source, it should be incredibly easy to refute with counter-sources that show why it's incorrect.
As mentioned above, they're not disclosing full sources and they're using a group of Holocaust-denying loonies as a reputable "source", while completely ignoring the methodological problems that exist in cross-national comparisons of crime, rape in particular.
Whew, that might be the biggest rant I've ever written.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/13 11:57:49
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2016/01/13 11:56:50
Subject: Swedish Police Accused of Covering Up Sex Crimes at Festival
Is this the level of integrity and intelligence of the European Left?
It is actions like THIS, this sort of dishonesty and cover ups, that feed the populist right. Unbelievable.
Critical sounds on migration issues have been suppressed by the political establishment across Europe for a long time, it's not really a left vs right issue. Even now the consensus on the issue is fading away due to pressing migration problems, the political left is pretty divided.
I feel this is more of a case of political correctness gone way to far by officials who feared any criticism of immigrants would harm their career prospects.
2016/01/13 11:57:52
Subject: Re:Swedish Police Accused of Covering Up Sex Crimes at Festival
Is this the level of integrity and intelligence of the European Left?
It is actions like THIS, this sort of dishonesty and cover ups, that feed the populist right. Unbelievable.
Critical sounds on migration issues have been suppressed by the political establishment across Europe for a long time, it's not really a left vs right issue. Even now the consensus on the issue is fading away due to pressing migration problems, the political left is pretty divided.
I feel this is more of a case of political correctness gone way to far by officials who feared any criticism of immigrants would harm their career prospects.
Agreed, with the caveat that much of this so-called "criticism" of immigration just doesn't hold up. There are legit concerns that get drowned out in the debate, but a lot of it is nonsense.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2016/01/13 12:08:53
Subject: Re:Swedish Police Accused of Covering Up Sex Crimes at Festival
You've not refuted a single one of my sources that I did post, you've just sat there and shouted about how awful they are.
Come on, AlmightyWalrus! Give me citations! Citations, please!
I pointed out the fact that Gatestone is ignoring the difficulties of cross-nation comparisons and even pointed out how three of your own source's citations back me up. I pointed out that they're not providing a source for parts of their claims. How do they intend to reach valid conclusions with a flawed methodology?
I don't have to provide citations to counter claims that you've made without sources, so those claims are out by default.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/13 12:11:56
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2016/01/13 12:15:20
Subject: Re:Swedish Police Accused of Covering Up Sex Crimes at Festival
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I pointed out the fact that Gatestone is ignoring the difficulties of cross-nation comparisons and even pointed out how three of your own source's citations back me up. I pointed out that they're not providing a source for parts of their claims. How do they intend to reach valid conclusions with a flawed methodology?
I don't have to provide citations to counter claims that you've made without sources, so those claims are out by default.
How do you intend to reach valid conclusions with no citations? Do you have any citations that go against what they're saying? Because if you don't have anything that contradicts what they are saying, then they are correct.
You've gotta cite these things, man! Come on, give me citations!
AlmightyWalrus wrote: C.f. the claims you made about being able to tell how old someone is from a picture earlier in the thread (if you can't, then why is the picture there?), the spreading of incorrect statistics (you, again) and the inability to understand basic methodology leading to claims about rape being up almost 1500 % mainly due to immigration (Gatestone Institute and, again, you).
Care to provide sources of your own now, or are you just going to keep being an ass?
I just want to make sure I'm understand you:
You're saying that you can't make a guess as to how old someone is by looking at them?
No, seriously, answer that question. You cannot tell a five year old from an eighty year old? You cannot tell a twelve year old from a thirty year old? You cannot tell a fifteen year old from a twenty five year old?
Because that's the claim you're making here. That's more mind boggling than anything else in this thread.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/13 12:15:49
2016/01/13 12:23:46
Subject: Re:Swedish Police Accused of Covering Up Sex Crimes at Festival
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I pointed out the fact that Gatestone is ignoring the difficulties of cross-nation comparisons and even pointed out how three of your own source's citations back me up. I pointed out that they're not providing a source for parts of their claims. How do they intend to reach valid conclusions with a flawed methodology?
I don't have to provide citations to counter claims that you've made without sources, so those claims are out by default.
How do you intend to reach valid conclusions with no citations? Do you have any citations that go against what they're saying? Because if you don't have anything that contradicts what they are saying, then they are correct
By all means, keep being an ass if you think that's going to convince anyone. I'm sure I don't have to explain how absolutely insane that last sentence is, but I'll link you to Russell's teapot on Wikipedia just in case (and yes, it's meant to apply to religion, but it works on any argument). You'll also note that I'm not saying that Gatestone is wrong because of their lack of citations, I'm saying that they're wrong because of a flaw in their methodology, questionable sources AND a lack of citations.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: C.f. the claims you made about being able to tell how old someone is from a picture earlier in the thread (if you can't, then why is the picture there?), the spreading of incorrect statistics (you, again) and the inability to understand basic methodology leading to claims about rape being up almost 1500 % mainly due to immigration (Gatestone Institute and, again, you).
Care to provide sources of your own now, or are you just going to keep being an ass?
I just want to make sure I'm understand you:
You're saying that you can't make a guess as to how old someone is by looking at them?
No, seriously, answer that question. You cannot tell a five year old from an eighty year old? You cannot tell a twelve year old from a thirty year old? You cannot tell a fifteen year old from a twenty five year old?
Because that's the claim you're making here. That's more mind boggling than anything else in this thread.
I've made no such claims, I've been wanting to know how you can accurately decide whether a person is a child or not just by looking at a picture of said person if the person is close to 18 years old. I've made no claims about five-year olds compared to eight-year olds or a twelve-year old compared to a thirty-year old, that's a strawman.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/13 12:26:38
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2016/01/13 12:26:50
Subject: Swedish Police Accused of Covering Up Sex Crimes at Festival
Last warning before warnings are handed out and the thread is locked. Language NEEDS to be polite. If you're getting frustrated, then stop typing. That's the last warning
I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own...
2016/01/13 13:28:40
Subject: Re:Swedish Police Accused of Covering Up Sex Crimes at Festival
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I pointed out the fact that Gatestone is ignoring the difficulties of cross-nation comparisons and even pointed out how three of your own source's citations back me up. I pointed out that they're not providing a source for parts of their claims. How do they intend to reach valid conclusions with a flawed methodology?
I don't have to provide citations to counter claims that you've made without sources, so those claims are out by default.
How do you intend to reach valid conclusions with no citations? Do you have any citations that go against what they're saying? Because if you don't have anything that contradicts what they are saying, then they are correct.
You've gotta cite these things, man! Come on, give me citations!
AlmightyWalrus wrote: C.f. the claims you made about being able to tell how old someone is from a picture earlier in the thread (if you can't, then why is the picture there?), the spreading of incorrect statistics (you, again) and the inability to understand basic methodology leading to claims about rape being up almost 1500 % mainly due to immigration (Gatestone Institute and, again, you).
Care to provide sources of your own now, or are you just going to keep being an ass?
I just want to make sure I'm understand you:
You're saying that you can't make a guess as to how old someone is by looking at them?
No, seriously, answer that question. You cannot tell a five year old from an eighty year old? You cannot tell a twelve year old from a thirty year old? You cannot tell a fifteen year old from a twenty five year old?
Because that's the claim you're making here. That's more mind boggling than anything else in this thread.
The point was that 16-21 Y/O's are just a tad indistinguishable from each other, which is why (don't know about anywhere else) we have those ID checks for people buying alcohol in the Uk.
A lad I went to high school with was capable of growing a full beard at age 15, and was pushing into 6' territory, another of my friends gets briefly annoyed using public transport as he gets child fares dumped on him (he soon stops complaining )
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/13 12:36:40
Brb learning to play.
2016/01/13 12:47:04
Subject: Re:Swedish Police Accused of Covering Up Sex Crimes at Festival
AlmightyWalrus wrote: By all means, keep being an ass if you think that's going to convince anyone. I'm sure I don't have to explain how absolutely insane that last sentence is, but I'll link you to Russell's teapot on Wikipedia just in case (and yes, it's meant to apply to religion, but it works on any argument). You'll also note that I'm not saying that Gatestone is wrong because of their lack of citations, I'm saying that they're wrong because of a flaw in their methodology, questionable sources AND a lack of citations.
I'm being an arse because you're endless asking for citations. I'd be here for weeks citing every source and claim you're asking for (most of which are easily findable (JUST GOOGLE "ROTHERHAM SEX ABUSE" WHY IS THIS HARD) or within public knowledge. You're also completely unwilling to post any citations yourself. Gatestone is still the best proof I have so far. How about you try to contradict them instead of trying to attack their methodology (which you admit you know nothing about)?
Here's an easily findable bit of proof that would allow you to contradict me: Go find me Swedish crime statistics in 2015 that contain information regarding ethnicity. You won't because the policy changed to stop doing it.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I've made no such claims, I've been wanting to know how you can accurately decide whether a person is a child or not just by looking at a picture of said person if the person is close to 18 years old. I've made no claims about five-year olds compared to eight-year olds or a twelve-year old compared to a thirty-year old, that's a strawman.
Almighty, I don't know if you're joking or not but none of the pictures of the people earlier in the thread look -anything- close to eighteen. These are some grown guys who are taller than a well-fed Swedish PM.
Mozzyfuzzy wrote: The point was that 16-21 Y/O's are just a tad indistinguishable from each other, which is why (don't know about anywhere else) we have those ID checks for people buying alcohol in the Uk.
A lad I went to high school with was capable of growing a full beard at age 15, and was pushing into 6' territory, another of my friends gets briefly annoyed using public transport as he gets child fares dumped on him (he soon stops complaining )
Which is fair enough. My point is that you can get some idea of the age range of a person just by looking at them. Do it like reverse alcohol buying. If they look over eighteen, don't grant them asylum unless they can prove they're under it (using documentation that I'm sure they'll very quickly find when you ask them for burden of proof). Simple!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/13 12:48:24
2016/01/13 13:04:18
Subject: Re:Swedish Police Accused of Covering Up Sex Crimes at Festival
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I've made no such claims, I've been wanting to know how you can accurately decide whether a person is a child or not just by looking at a picture of said person if the person is close to 18 years old. I've made no claims about five-year olds compared to eight-year olds or a twelve-year old compared to a thirty-year old, that's a strawman.
Almighty, I don't know if you're joking or not but none of the pictures of the people earlier in the thread look -anything- close to eighteen. These are some grown guys who are taller than a well-fed Swedish PM.
A prime minister whose height we don't know. And also, I was 6'2 at the age of 17. I rowed with a guy that could grow a full beard and was 6'9 at the age of 15. Kids come in all shapes and sizes, and immediately going "well he looks too tall" is daft.
Besides which, they all (other than possibly the 2nd from the right and the far left (whose face I can't quite make out due to the light falling on it)) look to be younger than me by a good few years, and I'm 21.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I've made no such claims, I've been wanting to know how you can accurately decide whether a person is a child or not just by looking at a picture of said person if the person is close to 18 years old. I've made no claims about five-year olds compared to eight-year olds or a twelve-year old compared to a thirty-year old, that's a strawman.
Almighty, I don't know if you're joking or not but none of the pictures of the people earlier in the thread look -anything- close to eighteen. These are some grown guys who are taller than a well-fed Swedish PM.
A prime minister whose height we don't know. And also, I was 6'2 at the age of 17. I rowed with a guy that could grow a full beard and was 6'9 at the age of 15. Kids come in all shapes and sizes, and immediately going "well he looks too tall" is daft.
Besides which, they all (other than possibly the 2nd from the right and the far left (whose face I can't quite make out due to the light falling on it)) look to be younger than me by a good few years, and I'm 21.
This.
nullBolt wrote: I'm being an arse because you're endless asking for citations. I'd be here for weeks citing every source and claim you're asking for (most of which are easily findable (JUST GOOGLE "ROTHERHAM SEX ABUSE" WHY IS THIS HARD) or within public knowledge.
What is it you want me to do with the knowledge that Rotherham happened? Do you want me to write an opera about it, or are you arguing that it's symptomatic of the police departments in cities with names starting with an "R"? You've just told us to "google Rotherham" without telling us what you want us to do with the information.
nullBolt wrote: You're also completely unwilling to post any citations yourself.
Because I'm not the one claiming that immigrants is the causal effect behind these events? Is it possible that they are? Sure, but your sources wouldn't tell us.
What do you want a citation on, exactly? I'm not making any claims as to whether immigration is correlated to increases in rape statistics or not, I'm pointing out that your "evidence" is inconclusive at best, and outright wrong at worst.
nullBolt wrote: How about you try to contradict them instead of trying to attack their methodology (which you admit you know nothing about)?
Where did I "admit" anything about their methodology? I don't have to contradict them, I just have to point out why their conclusions are faulty. I'm not making the opposite argument to them, I'm pointing out why their argument is rubbish. If that's the best you have, perhaps you should consider trying to find better sources?
nullBolt wrote: Here's an easily findable bit of proof that would allow you to contradict me: Go find me Swedish crime statistics in 2015 that contain information regarding ethnicity. You won't because the policy changed to stop doing it.
What you said was:
nullBolt wrote: You do realise that the Swedish government years ago made it illegal to report ethnicity and immigration status statistics in their crime data because so many rapes were being committed by migrants, right? It was something ridiculous like 21 rapes by a migrant compared to 1 rape by a Swedish man and the amount of migrants was much lower back then, too.
Your argument was that it was made illegal; the absence of said data is not proof that the collecting of such data has been made illegal. I've never argued that the data exists, only that you hadn't backed up the claim that it was made illegal, and you still haven't.
nullBolt wrote: Almighty, I don't know if you're joking or not but none of the pictures of the people earlier in the thread look -anything- close to eighteen. These are some grown guys who are taller than a well-fed Swedish PM.
Which is fair enough. My point is that you can get some idea of the age range of a person just by looking at them. Do it like reverse alcohol buying. If they look over eighteen, don't grant them asylum unless they can prove they're under it (using documentation that I'm sure they'll very quickly find when you ask them for burden of proof). Simple!
How do we decide who "looks over eighteen"? Really?
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2016/01/13 13:49:04
Subject: Re:Swedish Police Accused of Covering Up Sex Crimes at Festival
nullBolt wrote: (using documentation that I'm sure they'll very quickly find when you ask them for burden of proof)
So what you're telling me with this is that you really haven't dealt with many honest to god refugees, and are instead basing most of your understanding off sources that Almighty has already gone to the effort of ripping into. Good to know.
edit: sorry Goliath, accidentally misquoted it so it looked like you thought that haha
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/13 13:50:00
I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own...
2016/01/13 13:50:24
Subject: Swedish Police Accused of Covering Up Sex Crimes at Festival
Goliath wrote: A prime minister whose height we don't know. And also, I was 6'2 at the age of 17. I rowed with a guy that could grow a full beard and was 6'9 at the age of 15. Kids come in all shapes and sizes, and immediately going "well he looks too tall" is daft.
Besides which, they all (other than possibly the 2nd from the right and the far left (whose face I can't quite make out due to the light falling on it)) look to be younger than me by a good few years, and I'm 21.
Goliath, you're from a country where considerable amounts of calories are on offer at all times, as well as having various chemicals in them that prevent all the sorts of things that stunt growth. Comparing your height to that of "child" refugees is going to be very, very different.
But, looking at the picture, I'll give you that about half of them are probably hovering around 18-21, but the other half I'd say are much, much older.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: What is it you want me to do with the knowledge that Rotherham happened? Do you want me to write an opera about it, or are you arguing that it's symptomatic of the police departments in cities with names starting with an "R"? You've just told us to "google Rotherham" without telling us what you want us to do with the information.
As I have stated multiple times (which you have repeatedly ignored): It's a demonstration of how endemic migrants sexually assaulting girls is.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Because I'm not the one claiming that immigrants is the causal effect behind these events? Is it possible that they are? Sure, but your sources wouldn't tell us.
What do you want a citation on, exactly? I'm not making any claims as to whether immigration is correlated to increases in rape statistics or not, I'm pointing out that your "evidence" is inconclusive at best, and outright wrong at worst.
Citation needed on those claims, Almighty.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Where did I "admit" anything about their methodology? I don't have to contradict them, I just have to point out why their conclusions are faulty. I'm not making the opposite argument to them, I'm pointing out why their argument is rubbish. If that's the best you have, perhaps you should consider trying to find better sources?
You stated that you have no idea what their methodology is and therefore cannot repeat their results. Please get your argument straight.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Your argument was that it was made illegal; the absence of said data is not proof that the collecting of such data has been made illegal. I've never argued that the data exists, only that you hadn't backed up the claim that it was made illegal, and you still haven't.
Admittedly it was a poor choice of phrasing, but the point is the same. The Swedish government was unhappy with how the rape statistics turned out (as in, certain ethnic groups committed sexual assaults and rapes at an overbearing rate) so it is not policy to stop taking ethnicity statistics.
Height, musculature, bone structure, weathering of facial features. Four primary indicators of age.
Also, Almighty, it's highly amusing to see how you're acting like you're not caring now after you seemed very interested earlier. As I said a page back:
nullBolt wrote: Funny how your tune changes as soon as it's not about how all men are rapists but how all migrant men are rapists. I guess tarring one group with a brush is fine (a much bigger, diverse group) but the other isn't?
motyak wrote: So what you're telling me with this is that you really haven't dealt with many honest to god refugees, and are instead basing most of your understanding off sources that Almighty has already gone to the effort of ripping into. Good to know.
edit: sorry Goliath, accidentally misquoted it so it looked like you thought that haha
I'm from Liverpool. Everyone is in the gak together there. I know quite a few migrants (was friends with a few guys from Congo / Liberia in my community college), and I know the tricks that are used to exploit the welfare state.
So, yeah, I do have some understanding beyond the statistical, but that is anecdoctal evidence.
2016/01/13 14:18:28
Subject: Re:Swedish Police Accused of Covering Up Sex Crimes at Festival
AlmightyWalrus wrote: What is it you want me to do with the knowledge that Rotherham happened? Do you want me to write an opera about it, or are you arguing that it's symptomatic of the police departments in cities with names starting with an "R"? You've just told us to "google Rotherham" without telling us what you want us to do with the information.
As I have stated multiple times (which you have repeatedly ignored): It's a demonstration of how endemic migrants sexually assaulting girls is.
You're going to need a much more rigorous selection than that to prove that sexually assaulting girls is "endemic" among migrants.
What do you want a citation on, exactly? I'm not making any claims as to whether immigration is correlated to increases in rape statistics or not, I'm pointing out that your "evidence" is inconclusive at best, and outright wrong at worst.
Citation needed on those claims, Almighty.
How am I supposed to cite someone else on what I'm saying? Is there someone who's a greter authority on what I mean than myself? Do you even understand what the word "citation" means?
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Where did I "admit" anything about their methodology? I don't have to contradict them, I just have to point out why their conclusions are faulty. I'm not making the opposite argument to them, I'm pointing out why their argument is rubbish. If that's the best you have, perhaps you should consider trying to find better sources?
You stated that you have no idea what their methodology is and therefore cannot repeat their results. Please get your argument straight.
Where did I say I didn't have an idea of what their methodology was? I said it was flawed, not that I didn't know what it was. You're either lying or misremembering, and I'm honestly not going to give you the benefit of the doubt anymore, so I'm going to ask you to apologize.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Your argument was that it was made illegal; the absence of said data is not proof that the collecting of such data has been made illegal. I've never argued that the data exists, only that you hadn't backed up the claim that it was made illegal, and you still haven't.
Admittedly it was a poor choice of phrasing, but the point is the same. The Swedish government was unhappy with how the rape statistics turned out (as in, certain ethnic groups committed sexual assaults and rapes at an overbearing rate) so it is not policy to stop taking ethnicity statistics.
"A poor choice of phrasing"? You were wrong, and now you're trying to backtrack to save face. You're also attributing motive to someone (in this case the Swedish government) without providing evidence of your claim.
And are you an expert in the field of pediatrics, human morphology or even medicine in general, or are you just some bloke on the internet who's decided he knows better than people who've studied the subjects?
Also, Almighty, it's highly amusing to see how you're acting like you're not caring now after you seemed very interested earlier. As I said a page back:
nullBolt wrote: Funny how your tune changes as soon as it's not about how all men are rapists but how all migrant men are rapists. I guess tarring one group with a brush is fine (a much bigger, diverse group) but the other isn't?
Just where are you getting that from anyway? I'm pretty sure you're going to have a hard time finding evidence that I've ever said that "all men are rapists" outside of a sentence like this explaining that I haven't. But by all means, keep up your ad hominem attacks, I'm sure that's going to be popular after repeated warnings to stop it.
I've never claimed not to care, either, so good luck proving that, while you're at it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/13 14:20:13
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2016/01/13 14:38:35
Subject: Re:Swedish Police Accused of Covering Up Sex Crimes at Festival
AlmightyWalrus wrote: You're going to need a much more rigorous selection than that to prove that sexually assaulting girls is "endemic" among migrants.
If a girl is raped in Sweden, the chance of it being a migrant compared to a Swede is 5:1, despite the migrants making up a much smaller percentage of the population. Germany on New Year's Eve, where hundreds of girls were sexually assaulted and attacked with fireworks by migrants. Rotherham, where children were raped and used as prostitutes by migrants.
How much information do you need before you accept it's endemic? Will any proof be enough for you or will you just carry on saying "citation needed" instead of accepting the facts?
Will it only be when every girl in Sweden has been raped that you will be satisfied, Almighty? Or will it be necessary for it to happen to someone close to you before you wake up and open your eyes?
AlmightyWalrus wrote: How am I supposed to cite someone else on what I'm saying? Is there someone who's a greter authority on what I mean than myself? Do you even understand what the word "citation" means?
Do you even know what the word "citation" means? Because you've been using it frivolously since this thread started.
The reality of it is that you have no facts to back up any of your arguments so you just throw mud at the other side's facts in the hopes that some of it will stick and you'll be able to feel better about it.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Where did I say I didn't have an idea of what their methodology was? I said it was flawed, not that I didn't know what it was. You're either lying or misremembering, and I'm honestly not going to give you the benefit of the doubt anymore, so I'm going to ask you to apologize.
Do you know what their methodology was, then? How do you know they didn't control for any problems? Can you cite their methodology for me?
AlmightyWalrus wrote: "A poor choice of phrasing"? You were wrong, and now you're trying to backtrack to save face. You're also attributing motive to someone (in this case the Swedish government) without providing evidence of your claim.
Getting a bit desperate there, Almighty. Clinging onto whatever lifeline you can possibly have regarding this. What other reasons could the very left-wing pro-immigration Swedish government have for removing ethnicity from statistics? Do tell.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: And are you an expert in the field of pediatrics, human morphology or even medicine in general, or are you just some bloke on the internet who's decided he knows better than people who've studied the subjects?
Are you? Because you've not provided me with anything to directly refute the concept that you can get some idea of a person's age by looking at them.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Just where are you getting that from anyway? I'm pretty sure you're going to have a hard time finding evidence that I've ever said that "all men are rapists" outside of a sentence like this explaining that I haven't. But by all means, keep up your ad hominem attacks, I'm sure that's going to be popular after repeated warnings to stop it.
I've never claimed not to care, either, so good luck proving that, while you're at it.
Your opinion changes from:
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Absolutely, flabbergastingly stupid behaviour by the police if the allegations are true (and seeing as the police are more or less admitting, they probably are).
To whatever your current crazed opinion is after I start to point out that the Swedish police force has a policy of reporting crimes in a certain way to avoid blame being put onto certain ethnic groups.
2016/01/13 15:03:40
Subject: Re:Swedish Police Accused of Covering Up Sex Crimes at Festival
AlmightyWalrus wrote: You're going to need a much more rigorous selection than that to prove that sexually assaulting girls is "endemic" among migrants.
If a girl is raped in Sweden, the chance of it being a migrant compared to a Swede is 5:1, despite the migrants making up a much smaller percentage of the population. Germany on New Year's Eve, where hundreds of girls were sexually assaulted and attacked with fireworks by migrants. Rotherham, where children were raped and used as prostitutes by migrants.
How much information do you need before you accept it's endemic? Will any proof be enough for you or will you just carry on saying "citation needed" instead of accepting the facts?
Will it only be when every girl in Sweden has been raped that you will be satisfied, Almighty? Or will it be necessary for it to happen to someone close to you before you wake up and open your eyes?
See, the thing is, if one claims that rape is endemic you get called out for being an SJW, or Feminazi, but all of a sudden we're all very concerned when it's due to immigrants.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: How am I supposed to cite someone else on what I'm saying? Is there someone who's a greter authority on what I mean than myself? Do you even understand what the word "citation" means?
Do you even know what the word "citation" means? Because you've been using it frivolously since this thread started.
The reality of it is that you have no facts to back up any of your arguments so you just throw mud at the other side's facts in the hopes that some of it will stick and you'll be able to feel better about it.
The argument I'm making is that your arguments are flawed. I'm not commenting pro- or anti-anything other than the fact that your "sources" are awful and half of your statements of "fact" are entirely unsupported. That's not throwing mud, that's how an argument works.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Where did I say I didn't have an idea of what their methodology was? I said it was flawed, not that I didn't know what it was. You're either lying or misremembering, and I'm honestly not going to give you the benefit of the doubt anymore, so I'm going to ask you to apologize.
Do you know what their methodology was, then? How do you know they didn't control for any problems? Can you cite their methodology for me?
Their methodology, as evidenced by the link you used, is to point out the fact that it's nearly impossible to compare such data across nations with any degree of accuracy and then simply dismiss that as a "strange" explanation. They've literally hand-waved it away. They don't even attempt to rebutt it, they just pretend the major flaw in their comparison doesn't exist and run with it.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: "A poor choice of phrasing"? You were wrong, and now you're trying to backtrack to save face. You're also attributing motive to someone (in this case the Swedish government) without providing evidence of your claim.
Getting a bit desperate there, Almighty. Clinging onto whatever lifeline you can possibly have regarding this. What other reasons could the very left-wing pro-immigration Swedish government have for removing ethnicity from statistics? Do tell.
Now you're claiming that the left-wing government was the one which removed ethnicity from the report, and yet in the 2005 report used by Gatestone to support their claim the fact that immigrants from North Africa and their offspring have a higher incidence of crime actually explicitly says that's the case on page 35. From 2006 to 2014 the government was centre-right, so blaming this percieved shift of yours on the left is clearly not correct.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: And are you an expert in the field of pediatrics, human morphology or even medicine in general, or are you just some bloke on the internet who's decided he knows better than people who've studied the subjects?
Are you? Because you've not provided me with anything to directly refute the concept that you can get some idea of a person's age by looking at them.
Mainly because you've yet to support that argument beyond "oh, I look at their face and... stuff". There's nothing to refute.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Just where are you getting that from anyway? I'm pretty sure you're going to have a hard time finding evidence that I've ever said that "all men are rapists" outside of a sentence like this explaining that I haven't. But by all means, keep up your ad hominem attacks, I'm sure that's going to be popular after repeated warnings to stop it.
I've never claimed not to care, either, so good luck proving that, while you're at it.
Your opinion changes from:
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Absolutely, flabbergastingly stupid behaviour by the police if the allegations are true (and seeing as the police are more or less admitting, they probably are).
To whatever your current crazed opinion is after I start to point out that the Swedish police force has a policy of reporting crimes in a certain way to avoid blame being put onto certain ethnic groups.
Have I ever stated that I've changed my opinion from my first post in this thread? I still think it's flabbergastingly stupid behaviour, just like I think it's stupid that there's no current crime statistics in respect to ethnicity, I just don't go around pretending that the absence of data supports my worldview.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2016/01/13 15:11:37
Subject: Re:Swedish Police Accused of Covering Up Sex Crimes at Festival
AlmightyWalrus wrote: See, the thing is, if one claims that rape is endemic you get called out for being an SJW, or Feminazi, but all of a sudden we're all very concerned when it's due to immigrants.
That's because rape isn't endemic except amongst cultures that encourage it (ie the cultures of the migrants currently entering the EU).
Answer the question, though. When does it become endemic, Walrus? When every girl in Sweden has been gangraped half to death?
AlmightyWalrus wrote: The argument I'm making is that your arguments are flawed. I'm not commenting pro- or anti-anything other than the fact that your "sources" are awful and half of your statements of "fact" are entirely unsupported. That's not throwing mud, that's how an argument works.
So you're claiming you're completely partisan?
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Their methodology, as evidenced by the link you used, is to point out the fact that it's nearly impossible to compare such data across nations with any degree of accuracy and then simply dismiss that as a "strange" explanation. They've literally hand-waved it away. They don't even attempt to rebutt it, they just pretend the major flaw in their comparison doesn't exist and run with it.
Probably because a lot of the "explanations" are shared across EU boundaries without the same level of statistics.
As an example, rape is any sort of sexual penetration in Germany but Germany's rape statistics are MUCH lower than Sweden's.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Now you're claiming that the left-wing government was the one which removed ethnicity from the report, and yet in the 2005 report used by Gatestone to support their claim the fact that immigrants from North Africa and their offspring have a higher incidence of crime actually explicitly says that's the case on page 35. From 2006 to 2014 the government was centre-right, so blaming this percieved shift of yours on the left is clearly not correct.
Centre-right for Sweden =/= Centre right for the rest of the world. Centre-right for Sweden is Britain's far, far flying rodent gak leftists.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Mainly because you've yet to support that argument beyond "oh, I look at their face and... stuff". There's nothing to refute.
Again: Are you actually saying you can't tell someone's age by looking at them?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just to add on to what AlmightyWalrus believes the centre-right prime minister to be, the guy is called Fredrik Reinfeldt and he's famous for saying that Sweden should "not belong to the Swedish" and that "the Swedish are a very boring ethnic group".
That's centre-right in Sweden, guys.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/13 15:15:03
2016/01/13 15:29:15
Subject: Swedish Police Accused of Covering Up Sex Crimes at Festival
AlmightyWalrus wrote: See, the thing is, if one claims that rape is endemic you get called out for being an SJW, or Feminazi, but all of a sudden we're all very concerned when it's due to immigrants.
That's because rape isn't endemic except amongst cultures that encourage it (ie the cultures of the migrants currently entering the EU).
Answer the question, though. When does it become endemic, Walrus? When every girl in Sweden has been gangraped half to death?
I'd argue that it's already endemic, but not because of immigration.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: The argument I'm making is that your arguments are flawed. I'm not commenting pro- or anti-anything other than the fact that your "sources" are awful and half of your statements of "fact" are entirely unsupported. That's not throwing mud, that's how an argument works.
So you're claiming you're completely partisan?
I'm claiming that the only thing I've been consistently anti in this thread is you, because your arguments are sloppy.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Their methodology, as evidenced by the link you used, is to point out the fact that it's nearly impossible to compare such data across nations with any degree of accuracy and then simply dismiss that as a "strange" explanation. They've literally hand-waved it away. They don't even attempt to rebutt it, they just pretend the major flaw in their comparison doesn't exist and run with it.
Probably because a lot of the "explanations" are shared across EU boundaries without the same level of statistics.
As an example, rape is any sort of sexual penetration in Germany but Germany's rape statistics are MUCH lower than Sweden's.
In recent years, several revisions to the definition of rape have been made in Swedish law,[3] to now not only include intercourse, but comparable sexual acts initiated against someone passive—incapable of giving consent—because they are in a vulnerable situation, such as a state of fear or unconsciousness.[4]
In other words, you thought that Germany and Sweden were comparable in definition when they were demonstrably not. Are you starting to see why I'm scoffing at the Gatestone methodology yet?
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Now you're claiming that the left-wing government was the one which removed ethnicity from the report, and yet in the 2005 report used by Gatestone to support their claim the fact that immigrants from North Africa and their offspring have a higher incidence of crime actually explicitly says that's the case on page 35. From 2006 to 2014 the government was centre-right, so blaming this percieved shift of yours on the left is clearly not correct.
Centre-right for Sweden =/= Centre right for the rest of the world. Centre-right for Sweden is Britain's far, far flying rodent gak leftists.
You're going to love this: citation needed. On what basis do you place the Swedish Moderate Party at the same place as Britain's "far, far flying rodent gak leftists"? Who constitute Britain's "far, far flying rodent gak leftists"?
Just to add on to what AlmightyWalrus believes the centre-right prime minister to be, the guy is called Fredrik Reinfeldt and he's famous for saying that Sweden should "not belong to the Swedish" and that "the Swedish are a very boring ethnic group".
That's centre-right in Sweden, guys.
Where did he say that Sweden should "not belong to the Swedish" (bear in mind that something "belonging" to someone isn't the same as that person "owning" it), and where did he say that "the Swedish are a very boring ethnic group"? He was arguing along classical liberal lines that an open society is stronger than one that is closed. Hardly left-wing, unless one is to the right of Genghis Khan to start with.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/13 15:35:37
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2016/01/13 15:35:27
Subject: Swedish Police Accused of Covering Up Sex Crimes at Festival
d-usa wrote: Has the first Swedish girl been gang-raped to death?
There was that Swedish mother of two who worked in the refugee camped. She was gang-raped and then left wheelchair bound. There's a bunch of other stories, all equally gruesome, but no deaths just yet (as far as we know).
2016/01/13 15:36:13
Subject: Swedish Police Accused of Covering Up Sex Crimes at Festival
d-usa wrote: Has the first Swedish girl been gang-raped to death?
There was that Swedish mother of two who worked in the refugee camped. She was gang-raped and then left wheelchair bound. There's a bunch of other stories, all equally gruesome, but no deaths just yet (as far as we know).
You know what I'm going to say to this, don't you?
EDIT: Actually, lemme fix that source for you so that someone gets it done.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/13 15:40:13
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
2016/01/13 15:43:27
Subject: Swedish Police Accused of Covering Up Sex Crimes at Festival
In recent years, several revisions to the definition of rape have been made in Swedish law,[3] to now not only include intercourse, but comparable sexual acts initiated against someone passive—incapable of giving consent—because they are in a vulnerable situation, such as a state of fear or unconsciousness.[4]
In other words, you thought that Germany and Sweden were comparable in definition when they were demonstrably not. Are you starting to see why I'm scoffing at the Gatestone methodology yet?
That's literally the same ALL OVER THE WEST, Walrus. If a girl's drunk and you have sex with her (even if you're drunk at the same time), that is counted as rape. It's the same in the UK, the USA, Germany etc etc. If someone is in a vulnerable state and in fear for their lives, that's still rape!
There is very little difference. So why have Sweden's rape statistics shot up when the rest of the world's hasn't?
AlmightyWalrus wrote: You're going to love this: citation needed. On what basis do you place the Swedish Moderate Party at the same place as Britain's "far, far flying rodent gak leftists"? Who constitute Britain's "far, far flying rodent gak leftists"?
God knows, Britain doesn't really have any far-left political parties. Just trust me when I say our centre-right political parties would be Sweden's far, far rights.
Common knowledge doesn't need citing, Walrus.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Yes, I'm saying that it's impossible to tell in certain circumstances.
Probably true, but certain circumstances is not all the time. You acknowledge that the vast majority of the time you will be able to tell?
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Where did he say that Sweden should "not belong to the Swedish" (bear in mind that something "belonging" to someone isn't the same as that person "owning" it), and where did he say that "the Swedish are a very boring ethnic group"? He was arguing along classical liberal lines that an open society is stronger than one that is closed. Hardly left-wing, unless one is to the right of Genghis Khan to start with.
POLITIK. Moderaternas avgående partiledare Fredrik Reinfeldt bröt tystnaden och gjorde inför julaftonen ett nytt vänsterpolitiskt uttalande apropå det kommande nyvalet. Den före detta statsministern hävdar nu att Sveriges gränser är påhittade och att Sverige tillhör de invandrare som kommer hit – inte svenskarna.
Uttalandena gjordes med anledning av det planerade nyvalet nästa år och Reinfeldt bekräftade Mattias Karlssons (SD) uppfattning om att valet i första hand är en omröstning om invandringen.
– Det är ett vägval om vilket land Sverige ska vara, sade Reinfeldt till TV4.
– Är det här ett land som ägs av dem som har bott här i tre eller fyra generationer eller är Sverige vad människor som kommer hit mitt i livet gör det till att vara och utvecklar det till? frågade han sig retoriskt.
– För mig är det självklart att det ska vara det senare och att det är ett starkare och bättre samhälle om det får vara öppet, konstaterade Reinfeldt sedan.
I samband med TV4:s "Nyhetsmorgon" under julaftonens morgon gick han ännu längre och hävdade att Sveriges gränser bara är påhittade.
– Vad är Sverige för land? Ägs det här landet av dem som bott här i fyra generationer eller de som hittat på någon gräns? sade han nedlåtande.
Därefter menade han att svenskarna är ointressanta som folkgrupp och att det istället är invandrarna som skapar det nya Sverige.
– Det är vad de gör av Sverige som är Sverige, hävdade han.
The Moderates departing party leader Fredrik Reinfeldt broke the silence before Christmas Eve, and made a new political statement before the upcoming new election. The former prime minister now claims that Sweden's borders are fictional and that Sweden belongs to the immigrants who come here - not the Swedes.
Reinfeldt confirmed Mattias Karlsson (SD) perception that elections are primarily a vote on immigration.
- It is a choice of what country Sweden should be, Reinfeldt told TV4.
- Is this a country that is owned by those who have lived here for three or four generations or is Sweden what people who come here in mid-life makes it to be? he asked rhetorically.
- For me it is obvious that it should be the latter and that it is a stronger and better society if it may be open, said Reinfeldt.
In connection with TV4's "Nyhetsmorgon" during the Christmas Eve morning he went even further, claiming that Sweden's borders are only imaginary.
- What is Sweden? Is this country owned by those who lived here for four generations or those who invented borders? he said condescending.
Then he said that the Swedes are uninteresting as an ethnic group and that it is instead the immigrants that creates the new Sweden.
- It is what they do in Sweden that is Sweden, he claimed.
Looking at the other page, as d-usa said, the number of rape convictions has dropped since 2005. If there is an epidemic caused by migrants flooding the country, why is the conviction rate going down?
You haven't sourced anything I said directly, in fact.
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