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My first army was Eldar, I got up to 750 points and bought the box set (forgot the name, Dark Angels and Chaos) deciding to convert it all to chaos after reading more and more into their fluff. Stylistically, I ended up liking the Chaos Marines more, and after reading, I really liked the idea of a Chaos Space Marine. I continued to collect and play them in a casual environment and while I always felt like the underdog, it was a lot of fun because it was still new to me. Eventually, people started putting stronger units down and it went from fun to my army starting the game like an Ork who forgot how to believe.

Now recently I got the Lost and Damned book and its been awesome. Bunch of conversion work, baths of infantry and artillery rain, but I started not bringing marines. First list was about half of each, then a little less, a little less...

Now, I run a full R&H list, with an allied Crimson Slaughter detachment (Not even basic codex) to grab a buffed out Divination Sorcerer, a squad of CSM with a melta who don't do anything, and an Upgraded Plasma Chosen squad (with preferred enemy) to run deepstrike defense with my artillery.

Its a sad thing to see all those models on a shelf.

To the main arguments here, CSMs suck, plain and simple. Yeah there are other armies that barely have books and we should be grateful we have one, but its really pathetic. There is a clear bias with the armies and that's a real shame, because not only does Chaos suffer (and really, if anyone should be OP, realistically it should be chaos), but Tyranids, Guard, Sisters... the list goes on.

SirSweetroll wrote:
My first army was Eldar, I got up to 750 points and bought the box set (forgot the name, Dark Angels and Chaos) deciding to convert it all to chaos after reading more and more into their fluff. Stylistically, I ended up liking the Chaos Marines more, and after reading, I really liked the idea of a Chaos Space Marine. I continued to collect and play them in a casual environment and while I always felt like the underdog, it was a lot of fun because it was still new to me. Eventually, people started putting stronger units down and it went from fun to my army starting the game like an Ork who forgot how to believe.

Now recently I got the Lost and Damned book and its been awesome. Bunch of conversion work, baths of infantry and artillery rain, but I started not bringing marines. First list was about half of each, then a little less, a little less...

Now, I run a full R&H list, with an allied Crimson Slaughter detachment (Not even basic codex) to grab a buffed out Divination Sorcerer, a squad of CSM with a melta who don't do anything, and an Upgraded Plasma Chosen squad (with preferred enemy) to run deepstrike defense with my artillery.

Its a sad thing to see all those models on a shelf.

To the main arguments here, CSMs suck, plain and simple. Yeah there are other armies that barely have books and we should be grateful we have one, but its really pathetic. There is a clear bias with the armies and that's a real shame, because not only does Chaos suffer (and really, if anyone should be OP, realistically it should be chaos), but Tyranids, Guard, Sisters... the list goes on.

Its the result of a money-driven game system developing in a circular pattern. Space Marines are the starter army for the most part, because they are fairly good (thinking back to likes of late 4th Ed/5th Ed where I started), durable but not Necron level durable, decent stats, decent damage and an easy to play and build army. This results in them ebing the most populous and popular army. As a result sales shoot up and GW invest more time in their range and rules, so in the leap to 6th Ed codex they become even stronger (White Scar bikes, Iron Hand vehicles, Iron Hand Biker Burning Blade Shield Eternal Chapter Masters, etc) and then they become popular not just amongst newbies just starting but amongst veteran and competitive players. So GW upgrades them again and again and the cycle continues. The same thing can be seen in Eldar and Tau, who suddenly become uber-popular and uber-powerful, so sales shoot up and they become even more powerful. Necrons even moreso.

Tyranids or Chaos, as examples, are less popular. Little 12 year olds start with "Good Guy Superhero Space MArines" and don't want to play bad guy villain CSM, because of the like of comic books and mainstream media. So it becomes less popular so the designers focus less on the models and rules, making them less appealing, so as people move on they buy Space Marines to convert instead, or run C:SM as C:CSM for competitiveness and better fluffiness, or just abandon them altogether. Seeing a drop in sales, they consider it less important to sell their unpopular stuff than try to sell new shiny to the people who already own 3 of every Space Marine unit because they are so popular and powerful. Tyranids similarly have suffered as 4th moved into 5th Ed (and Genestealers consolidate rolling through entire Guard parking lots disappeared), and so became less popular. Then the new codex wasn't so great and the most useful units were ones that most people already had (Gaunts) or converted out of existing kits (Carnifex-Tervigon) and so sales dipped. They Grey Knights with ID melee everywhere and psychic defence rolfstomp them and it got worse. Then they got even less powerful as the move into 6th Ed favoured shooting, sales and popularity dropped even more in favour of Tau and their Overwatch and Riptides, Eldar and their Wraithknights, WS Bikers, etc. Its a continuous circle. Sisters know even more of this, and compounded by high prices for a pair of metal models, so sales are so low they don't even have a codex now.
THe more powerful and popular army is, the more exponentially powerful they will become, resulting in a boost to popularity, then a boost to sales, thus another boost in power to boost popularity and boost sales again. Whereas if an army stops being popular it becomes weaker, thus less popular, less sales, and less powerful as a result. The only saving grace is that mid-point armies like Dark Eldar, Orks, Imperial Guard, most Space Marine variants like BA, DA, SW and GK, Inquisition, Assassins, and I suppose latest armies like Skitarri, Stormtroopers and Mechanicus, will all stay roughly around the same tier for a long while. But expect Chaos, Tyranids and Sisters to get continually weaker, and Space Marines, Eldar, Necrons and Tau to get exponentially stronger over time.

I can say I enjoy playing Chaos which to me is a lot better option that B & M.

 Kraytirous wrote:
@OP: You are completely right. Dreadclaws rock as transports.

They have their uses. It's hard to say they "rock" however. They're something you might take one or two of in certain instances with specific units (that aren't universally useful, particularly when trying to stick close to the background fluff for the various factions). They don't however offer anything near the utility of normal drop pods or something like a Night Scythe.

People say Chaos has no delivery because they'd rather focus on why they can't make a list as powerful as the equivalent in Codex Adeptus Astartes. The reason is simple... This is not Codex Adeptus Astartes.

Or it's because the Chaos Codex just doesn't have anything near the same capabilities.

The debating and arguing is redundant. Those who hate Chaos will never be able to set aside their jealousy to focus on making an effective army with the tools they have

I think people have figured out what works, the problem is that even when you do that, it just doesn't match up to the capabilities of the competition and you're starting from a severely uneven point. It's not a jealousy thing, it's not a "they can't figure it out thing". The playerbase is simply too large for that to be a realistic thing. We have gobs of data points from event & tournament results that show that CSM armies, particularly those heavily built around actual CSM's, rarely perform well at all.

those who love Chaos will have to deal with the cross of being in the minority. That means being ignored and invalidated by logical fallacy.

Those who hate Chaos have three options: play a different army, proxy a different army as Chaos, learn to live with the Chaos codex as it stands.

Why would somebody who hates Chaos bother player them...?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

But the point is that CSM should not be having to rely on a dozen different supplements to be able to play. No army should.
Look at tthe big four, Eldar, Necrons, Space Marines and Tau. They can stand alone so why cant the other factions?

CSM aren't "having to rely on a dozen different supplements to be able to play." You can play just fine with the base book.

CSM might have to reach into supplements to play competitively, but that idea in 40k right now is so silly I can't even.

No, we cannot. We can monobuild with MoN Spawn, Obliterators, Bikers, and a winged DP with Black Mace. Our Heldrakes are good too. So we saddle up 2x10 Cultists at the back. Take a look at any tournament, and if CSMs appear in the top rankings at all, it'll almost always be as 10 Cultists and a winged MoN Daemon Prince with the Black Mace allied detachment to Daemons (or LatD).

Then notice how there's no normal CSMs being taken - only MoN bikers. There are no Chaos Space Marines in the Eye of Terror.

 sfshilo wrote:
CSM suffers from the same thing Dark Angel Players suffer from. They want "THEIR" army to work well. Instead of taking that generic CSM, they want their 100 model thousand son army to work. (Or in the Dark Angel example, ALL TERMINATORS!)

Who cares that CSM have the best MSU spam (IMO)? I want to haz my all raptor nightlords army to beat them Tau.

IA 13 is awesome, also ya'll need to learn what a dirge castor is.

Best MSU spam? Seriously? No, we do not. Gladius Strike Forces and Eldar scatterspam/Warp Spiders are dominating.

IA 13 gives us Fire Raptors, which is a slightly beefier Heldrake, and Sicarans helped. It didn't give us what we needed in the current meta though, which is cheap, reliable delivery. Our rhinos are good though, and the dirge caster is good. Issue is there's nothing to put in them, and we don't get them for free - see the Gladius Strike Force and Filch below for details. I played a SM army with 500 points more than me at 1650 at a tournament last weekend due to those free transports - he had almost 1/3 more points than me.

 Filch wrote:
...due to the being limited to rhinos, I play plague marines in rhinos. I move 12 and another 6 in shot phase or pop smoke. Then the rhino gives first blood. The plague marines disembark. They have to snap fire. Enemy charges me and I snap fire still. I have defensive grenades so no attack bonus for them. We get locked in combat for 2 or more turns.

 Peregrine wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
No codex should have to rely on FW and allies.

No codex should have to rely on vehicles.
No codex should have to rely on troops.
No codex should have to rely on melta weapons.
No codex should have to rely on units from page 67.
No codex should have to rely on units.

Don't invent your own arbitrary rule categories (which have nothing to do with the rules provided by GW) and then complain that an army is broken if it requires rules from the "wrong" category. That's a problem with your category divisions, not the normal rules of the game.

Wanting a codex to stand on its own two power-armoured feet isn't arbitrary.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

But the point is that CSM should not be having to rely on a dozen different supplements to be able to play. No army should.
Look at tthe big four, Eldar, Necrons, Space Marines and Tau. They can stand alone so why cant the other factions?

CSM aren't "having to rely on a dozen different supplements to be able to play." You can play just fine with the base book.

CSM might have to reach into supplements to play competitively, but that idea in 40k right now is so silly I can't even.

No, we cannot. We can monobuild with MoN Spawn, Obliterators, Bikers, and a winged DP with Black Mace. Our Heldrakes are good too. So we saddle up 2x10 Cultists at the back. Take a look at any tournament, and if CSMs appear in the top rankings at all, it'll almost always be as 10 Cultists and a winged MoN Daemon Prince with the Black Mace allied detachment to Daemons (or LatD).

Then notice how there's no normal CSMs being taken - only MoN bikers. There are no Chaos Space Marines in the Eye of Terror.

And such a sad, sad truth this is... Loyalist players still whine endlessly that their Tacticals are the game's worst Troops choice. As a Chaos player who absolutely hates Nurgle, I seriously wish I had a Troops choice like Tacticals for my Tzeentch Marines!

Chaos Marines themselves are easily the single worst models currently in the game. They bring nothing to the table, except making it easier for your opponent to thrash you senseless.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
CSM suffers from the same thing Dark Angel Players suffer from. They want "THEIR" army to work well. Instead of taking that generic CSM, they want their 100 model thousand son army to work. (Or in the Dark Angel example, ALL TERMINATORS!)

Who cares that CSM have the best MSU spam (IMO)? I want to haz my all raptor nightlords army to beat them Tau.

IA 13 is awesome, also ya'll need to learn what a dirge castor is.

Best MSU spam? Seriously? No, we do not. Gladius Strike Forces and Eldar scatterspam/Warp Spiders are dominating.

IA 13 gives us Fire Raptors, which is a slightly beefier Heldrake, and Sicarans helped. It didn't give us what we needed in the current meta though, which is cheap, reliable delivery. Our rhinos are good though, and the dirge caster is good. Issue is there's nothing to put in them, and we don't get them for free - see the Gladius Strike Force and Filch below for details. I played a SM army with 500 points more than me at 1650 at a tournament last weekend due to those free transports - he had almost 1/3 more points than me.

Obvious Troll is bloody obvious!

Chaos Marines on their own are only 'the best' at being everyone else's favourite punching bag;
- Our MSU is terrible.
- Our unique Chaos psychic lores are the game's outright worst by a mile. (and they're barely half a lore to boot!)
- Our shooting phase is better than only Chaos Daemons, which is saying something!
- Our assault units have no viable delivery method within our own codex.
- The only mark of relevance that exists is Nurgle, and occasionally MoK on a Jugger Lord for the AoBF option.

Even in non-competitive games, it's just badly obvious just how far behind the curve Chaos Marines are. We're playing 5th edition's Rhino Rush with units & wargear that's still paying 3rd/4th edition pricing!
Only an would ever accuse Chaos Marines built from just the codex itself as being "good", let alone competitive or (despite Loyalist claims) OP!

 ChazSexington wrote:
Wanting a codex to stand on its own two power-armoured feet isn't arbitrary.

Well, according to Loyalists, it's simply not allowed for Chaos, because... "reasons".

We've been stuck eating the same crusty old poop sandwich since 2007, but apparently all we really need to do is buy Heldrakes + FW and "git gud/L2Plolz!"

To be fair, Tactical Marines are garbage. I rather they functioned like Grey Hunters and be able to take a second Special Weapon, because Heavy/Salvo weapons in a squad that's going to be consistently moving is, well, garbage. I have Devastators and their Centurion counterparts if I want to load up on that. Sure having the option is nice, but the option is terrible.
That's really the only thing regular Vanilla CSM's have on Tactical Marines though. Otherwise, they hide in their free Rhino and unload Plasma Guns and Grav Cannons.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
To be fair, Tactical Marines are garbage. I rather they functioned like Grey Hunters and be able to take a second Special Weapon, because Heavy/Salvo weapons in a squad that's going to be consistently moving is, well, garbage. I have Devastators and their Centurion counterparts if I want to load up on that. Sure having the option is nice, but the option is terrible.
That's really the only thing regular Vanilla CSM's have on Tactical Marines though. Otherwise, they hide in their free Rhino and unload Plasma Guns and Grav Cannons.

Combat Squads makes their Special + Heavy weapon loadouts function though, as the 5 dudes w/Special + matching Combi-weapon can race about in their free Razorback while the 5 grunts w/Heavy weapon sit in the backfield and camp an objective with Obsec.
Plus they get the added bonuses of 'And They Shall Know No Fairness', Chapter Tactics, Combat Tactics, etc... for a whopping 1pt more than a basic Chaos Marine! You starting actually putting any upgrades beyond a single Plasma + Combi-Plasma onto those Chaos Marines, (let alone the fact that those Loyalist dogs can now spam the godly Grav options!), and it's outright laughable how bad they are in comparison.

Sure Tacticals are about as average as average can be, but they're not actual garbage. Not when Chaos Marines exist!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
To be fair, Tactical Marines are garbage. I rather they functioned like Grey Hunters and be able to take a second Special Weapon, because Heavy/Salvo weapons in a squad that's going to be consistently moving is, well, garbage. I have Devastators and their Centurion counterparts if I want to load up on that. Sure having the option is nice, but the option is terrible.
That's really the only thing regular Vanilla CSM's have on Tactical Marines though. Otherwise, they hide in their free Rhino and unload Plasma Guns and Grav Cannons.

You can just take 2 5 man Tactical Squads instead for better MSU spam and 2 Specials for the exact same price. And, if you are playing Salamanders you get an extra Master Crafted weapon because you have an extra Sergeant, who can also get a Combi-weapon. So you ccould actually get 2 specials and 2 combis instead of 1 special, one combi and 1 heavy.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
To be fair, Tactical Marines are garbage. I rather they functioned like Grey Hunters and be able to take a second Special Weapon, because Heavy/Salvo weapons in a squad that's going to be consistently moving is, well, garbage. I have Devastators and their Centurion counterparts if I want to load up on that. Sure having the option is nice, but the option is terrible.
That's really the only thing regular Vanilla CSM's have on Tactical Marines though. Otherwise, they hide in their free Rhino and unload Plasma Guns and Grav Cannons.

While we are Tac Marine wishlisting I think chain swords should be AP5 and Tac Marines should actually include their combat knife in their profile. In most chapters tac marines are the most veteran marines after the veteran company members!

CSM can also run bigger squads, but I think most people consider that to be just more of a bad thing (even if it is a popular option in 30k)!

That's because 30k has a pricing system that makes 2 half-sized squads cost more than a full sized squad by about 50 points before upgrades.

For CSMs you pay the same points for the last 10 guys as you do for the middle 5, and those last 10 don't even unlock an option (special/heavy weapons) like the 5 do!

nareik wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
To be fair, Tactical Marines are garbage. I rather they functioned like Grey Hunters and be able to take a second Special Weapon, because Heavy/Salvo weapons in a squad that's going to be consistently moving is, well, garbage. I have Devastators and their Centurion counterparts if I want to load up on that. Sure having the option is nice, but the option is terrible.
That's really the only thing regular Vanilla CSM's have on Tactical Marines though. Otherwise, they hide in their free Rhino and unload Plasma Guns and Grav Cannons.

While we are Tac Marine wishlisting I think chain swords should be AP5 and Tac Marines should actually include their combat knife in their profile. In most chapters tac marines are the most veteran marines after the veteran company members!

CSM can also run bigger squads, but I think most people consider that to be just more of a bad thing (even if it is a popular option in 30k)!

Please tell me weren't not about to head down the road of claiming that Chaos Marine squads are superior to Tac Squads because of being able to run ccw's... For the love of all that's unholy, let's not open this can of worms!

Experiment 626 wrote:

nareik wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
To be fair, Tactical Marines are garbage. I rather they functioned like Grey Hunters and be able to take a second Special Weapon, because Heavy/Salvo weapons in a squad that's going to be consistently moving is, well, garbage. I have Devastators and their Centurion counterparts if I want to load up on that. Sure having the option is nice, but the option is terrible.
That's really the only thing regular Vanilla CSM's have on Tactical Marines though. Otherwise, they hide in their free Rhino and unload Plasma Guns and Grav Cannons.

While we are Tac Marine wishlisting I think chain swords should be AP5 and Tac Marines should actually include their combat knife in their profile. In most chapters tac marines are the most veteran marines after the veteran company members!

CSM can also run bigger squads, but I think most people consider that to be just more of a bad thing (even if it is a popular option in 30k)!

Please tell me weren't not about to head down the road of claiming that Chaos Marine squads are superior to Tac Squads because of being able to run ccw's... For the love of all that's unholy, let's not open this can of worms!

Not at all! My apologies for giving this impression, no matter how unintended it was! I was just jumping on the tangent of changes to tac marines, as it frustrates me they are fluffed/modelled as having combat knives but they don't get the benefit of them in game. Being forced into imagining them punching things with a bolt pistol having forgotten all their scout training for combat knife melee really Fractures the Narrative.

Chaos Marine squads are superior to Tac Squads because of being able to run ccw's.

OH GOD HE'S CRAZY

Tactical squads are pretty much garbage unless you are running the demi-company formation. I would say CSM is better except that they are too overcosted points wise.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I think you missed the point that it doesn't matter that they're forge world. They could be made by FlugelSchnorp and GobbletyGook LLC. and as long as they're legal for 40k (and your opponent agrees, of course, as with anything), then why does it matter what name is stamped on it?

As for codexes standing alone, my point was that some lists don't even have codexes to begin with and rely exclusively on Forge World rules and models, such as, for example, Solar Auxilia. So no, the idea of codex exclusivity is as outdated as Squats.

Seriously? There's a difference between choosing to play an army that is Forgeworld exclusive, therefore you go in knowing that everything you buy is going t be at the price of platinum bling, and choosing to play one of the base armies - and one of the foundation armies of the game, no less - and then finding out that you have to buy a bunch of ultra-expensive stuff just to make a solid army, not to mention that to play some of your base units you have to shell out so much extra money that people playing other armies don't have to. Especially when, as noted multiple times here, so many of the other base armies get everything they need right in their main book and as regular kits to boot. Forgeworld should be a nice boost or extra bump for the army you choose to play, not the only way to get something necessary to play your army. This is one of the reasons I haven't touched my models in months; when I started playing I made the mistake of playing armies that looked cool and bought Nids and CSM . Now to play those armies with any chance of not just getting blown off the table I either have to have multiple books and premium model kits or ask my opponent to intentionally nerf his or her lists. Whether or not I can afford it, I refuse to play into GW's stupidity on this and buy their ultra-premium toys just to have moderately competitive armies.

I'm really glad to have FW available to draw from for my Chaos armies. It's a huge boost for CSM.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I'm really glad to have FW available to draw from for my Chaos armies. It's a huge boost for CSM.

I'm sorry that you missed my point. If only it were just a nice boost or bump I'd have no issue, but it's not; it's a necessary option for them to be relatively playable and that's not acceptable. not to mention the options still aren't as good as what shows up in other regular codices.

It is acceptable for me... plus I have always loved Forge World.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I would say CSM is better except that they are too overcosted points wise.

In all fairness, wouldn't you say anything is better than everything except that they are too overcosted points wise?

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Cost is a pathetic argument. If you can afford 40k, you can afford Forge World.

But why should I have to? There are armies that have all the necessary options in their Codex and models for them available from GW. If I want AA (beyond the defense line gun) or flyers for my SoB I'll have to ally in another army or spend hard cash on Forgeworld. Sure, I could do it - but it does seem unfair to me that I have to spend much more money to shore up weaknesses than someone who picks up the Eldar/Tau/SM/Necron Codex.

Imperial Armour Aeronautica 30£, Avenger Strike Fighters for 90£ apiece. Armies with plastic GW flyers have the rules in the Codex and pay about 40£ for a kit.

Have to? You don't have to do anything. It's a luxury hobby.

It's a slow luxury hobby, at that! It's not like you can buy a kit, five minutes later you're playing with it, and voila, instant gratification.

Don't try to pull that 'woe is me, I'm a Sisters player, GW hates us' crap, either - I'm a Sisters player. I'm a broke Sisters player who can't buy any models at all at the moment.

We have it easier than some armies, even, like Chaos - at least the Repressor and the Avenger are super-easy conversions from Razorbacks and Dark Talons. We may as well have them plastic from GW anyway!

The fact is this: If you are solvent enough to play Warhammer 40,000, you are solvent enough to play Warhammer 40,000 with Forge World. One month extra saving is not going to kill you, and if you needed that money for other things, you wouldn't be playing 40k in the first place.

This is either 10/10 trolling or this guy is a real dummy.

The difference in price between GWS and forge world is like the difference between a Toyota and a Lexus. The price difference is massive.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I would say CSM is better except that they are too overcosted points wise.

In all fairness, wouldn't you say anything is better than everything except that they are too overcosted points wise?

Currently I only use Berserkers which are really good. They are like gods now.

The difference in price between GWS and forge world is like the difference between a Toyota and a Lexus. The price difference is massive.

This is not true at all. Just look at a kit like the IK .

yea these days forge world and GW arn't that different in price for many things. The main extra cost for FW is shipping.

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I would say CSM is better except that they are too overcosted points wise.

In all fairness, wouldn't you say anything is better than everything except that they are too overcosted points wise?

Currently I only use Berserkers which are really good. They are like gods now.

The difference in price between GWS and forge world is like the difference between a Toyota and a Lexus. The price difference is massive.

This is not true at all. Just look at a kit like the IK .

Uh the imperial knight is a prime example of how i'm right. I will prove that now.

Imperial knight is $140 full retail...I will get an 20% discount so that will come down to $112.......I will not have to pay any taxes and shipping will be 5 bucks. cool. $117.


Let's see how much one of the lower tier knights from forgeworld will cost me. lets go with the QUESTORIS KNIGHT MAGAERA, the cheapest one they have. It's $164 after exchange. I will get no discount. I actually logged into forgeworld so that I could see the tax and shipping fees: $39.71. Pretty insane honestly.


So lets review....

GW: $117
Forgeworld: $203.71


that's a 74% mark up. Honestly, that's probably a higher mark up than the difference between a Toyota Camry and a IS-250, lol.

So basically, you are wrong.

To be fair your paying getting a 20 percent discount out of no wear.

Even without the 20% discount, it's a ~45% markup.

That's still a sizable amount.

GW really should start allowing stores to get FW units directly. If you factored out shipping costs it wouldn't be nearly as bad.

Isn't there like a 20% VAT tax included in the FW price? I had heard you can actually get that refunded by customs or whatever if you travel there and buy it in person. But if you buy it through the webstore even though you're paying the tax markup they aren't actually required to collect tax on the pirchase so they just pocket the difference. It's basically a negative 20% discount. And that's on top of shipping.

The FW Knight is vastly superior in terms of the model. The nice thing about the plastic kit is it's easy to magnetize for different builds.