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Daemons and CSM used to all be rolled into one book so it's not a stretch to ally them together now.

As stated, that's very legion dependent. And meta dependent. A lot of the older metas still frown on things like allies and formations, since they are relatively new and blamed for the unbalanced state of the game.

Akiasura wrote:
As stated, that's very legion dependent. And meta dependent. A lot of the older metas still frown on things like allies and formations, since they are relatively new and blamed for the unbalanced state of the game.

but if we are blaming unbalance on relatively new things then perhaps chaos suffers unbalance because of the relatively new split they had into daemons and marines?

nareik wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
As stated, that's very legion dependent. And meta dependent. A lot of the older metas still frown on things like allies and formations, since they are relatively new and blamed for the unbalanced state of the game.

but if we are blaming unbalance on relatively new things then perhaps chaos suffers unbalance because of the relatively new split they had into daemons and marines?

That's certainly part of it. Chaos has been on a severe downwards trend since the 3.5 dex, which did allow demon summoning. It was an incredibly fluffy option, although it did promote a strong build (siren bomb).

But to be clear, when I said unbalance I was speaking towards the game state, not chaos in particular. I should have been more clear considering the topic of discussion.

Don't worry, you were understood perfectly, I just chose to use the word again but in a different context to show unbalance runs both ways, so creating general rules (like 'no allies') punishes weaker options more than the stronger options which are already strong before adding further synergies.

It's like how WHFB tournaments used to say 'no double rares' when they meant no double steam tanks/abominations/hydras... sure those things were powerful, but what about weaker rares like giants which really needed to be doubled up on to have sufficient saturation to even get into combat.

I really don't like unnecessarily generic and arbitrary house rules against all large grey animals when we all know the elephant in the room. Think of the rhinos!

Well if you think about it in those terms, the traitor legions lost a feth load when they split from the Imperium. Ie, Mechanicum support and resources, loyalty and back up from other Astartes groups and majority of the Imperial Guard/Army. With that in mind it really is Daemons and Chaos that's holding the traitors up to the Loyalists, fluffwise. A lot of their gear is outdated, or developed after their betrayal, such as Centurians or Stormravens for example. In that sense, those Legions should be requiring Daemonic assistance to take loyalists on. Look at which legions have the most power in the setting. Black Legion and Word Bearers, which have Daemonic assistance. The other legions like World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Death Guard and Emperor's Children are all upgraded by their god with enhanced toughness, berserker fury or speed in some form or another. Iron Warriors rely on vehicles but are matched by loyalist who have not only Vindicators, Predators and Land Raiders but also support from Imperial Guard and new designs like Crusader or Hunter/Stalkers. Alpha Legion don't really do upfront assault and Night Lords don't even have a Primarch or Abaddon to lead them so their pretty on-par with Loyalists.

Daemons and Chaos power is what gives Chaos an edge.

nareik wrote:
Don't worry, you were understood perfectly, I just chose to use the word again but in a different context to show unbalance runs both ways, so creating general rules (like 'no allies') punishes weaker options more than the stronger options which are already strong before adding further synergies.

It's like how WHFB tournaments used to say 'no double rares' when they meant no double steam tanks/abominations/hydras... sure those things were powerful, but what about weaker rares like giants which really needed to be doubled up on to have sufficient saturation to even get into combat.

I really don't like unnecessarily generic and arbitrary house rules against all large grey animals when we all know the elephant in the room. Think of the rhinos!

Huh, I don't remember the double rares. I ran multiple hydras for a while, never ran into an issue with it at a tournament. What edition was this?

Allies pretty much benefit every army and push them to crazy levels. There are a few that don't do this, Necrons and Nids mainly, but for a long time most of the competitive armies used allies (DA w/IG for a IG blob, Baron in an Eldar list, Inquisition everywhere). I don't think the game was ever designed with allies in mind, and it really shows.
Even daemons benefit from a few CSM models. Granted, very few, but still. It's not really needed.

Formations are even more out of control. While some are okay, and some problems aren't related to formations (deathstars mainly), most of the power armies have at least 1 formation that make them go from good to great, while those that don't are sitting there collecting dust.

Removal of GMC, Formations, Grav Weapons, D weapons, Invisibility, and Allies outside of few exceptions (some codexes are obvious supplements) does a lot to improve the game. It's not perfect, but its certainly better than where it is now.

Discount dreadclaw = buy a drop pod and turn the fins upside down then stick icons and spikes all over it.

Too bad though it is much more expensive points wise than a normal drop pod.

 Deadshot wrote:
Well if you think about it in those terms, the traitor legions lost a feth load when they split from the Imperium. Ie, Mechanicum support and resources, loyalty and back up from other Astartes groups and majority of the Imperial Guard/Army. With that in mind it really is Daemons and Chaos that's holding the traitors up to the Loyalists, fluffwise. A lot of their gear is outdated, or developed after their betrayal, such as Centurians or Stormravens for example. In that sense, those Legions should be requiring Daemonic assistance to take loyalists on. Look at which legions have the most power in the setting. Black Legion and Word Bearers, which have Daemonic assistance. The other legions like World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Death Guard and Emperor's Children are all upgraded by their god with enhanced toughness, berserker fury or speed in some form or another. Iron Warriors rely on vehicles but are matched by loyalist who have not only Vindicators, Predators and Land Raiders but also support from Imperial Guard and new designs like Crusader or Hunter/Stalkers. Alpha Legion don't really do upfront assault and Night Lords don't even have a Primarch or Abaddon to lead them so their pretty on-par with Loyalists.

Daemons and Chaos power is what gives Chaos an edge.

I don't disagree with your assessment. This is an issue of the way GW chooses to write the codex. The codex is basically written like no Space marines have fallen to Chaos since the heresy or, if they have, they just dropped all of their new fangled equipment, I guess because it's missing the spikes. The second problem with the way the book is written is the assumption that the Chaos forces wouldn't see all the new stuff their counterparts were developing and wouldn't make any upgrades or new equipment of their own or commandeer some after a battle.......

One of the great things about FW now is they have all the Chaos equivalents for the most part.

CSM and daemons naturally go together and actually lots of armies can summons now. From a background pov is perfectly okay for CSM to summons.

Konrax wrote:Just compare possessed to the new Wolfen units then lets continue this discussion.

Yeah, they don't grenades, buts thats okay, you can buy them a grenade launcher and they count as having grenades.
They have AP2 Str+1 LC's..., yeah they really needed this.
That ridiculous Axe that gives +3Str and strike at Init 5 the turn they assault?...hahaha...
And since when does SW do in mutations?, i mean cal me crazy but that thing about the Wulfen curse and the 2 random charts?..., and they get all sweet as feth bonuses...

HoundsofDemos wrote:I think we can divide this into two views.

Those that feel that via allies and forgeworld that Chaos as an over all faction is fine.

and Those that are upset that Codex Chaos Space marine has become Codex Nurgle.

If your a thousand suns, undivided or Slanneesh player I feel so hard for you because your book doesn't work

Thats something that people are missing, there is the Chaos faction, like IoM faction, but the Poster child for Chaos Faction, Chaos Space Marines, are nowhere close to Space Marines, so you basically have like 6 to 8 factions in IoM and apart 3 of them( BA's, IG's and Sistas) the rest works marvelous.

Then you have Chaos faction with 2 books that works (Deamons and KDK, and its really depending on the lists used) and then CSM and his childs are like, some kind of dirty red head that no one wants to come close or touche, even with a 20feet pole..., then you have IA 13 and Vraks that is also highly dependend on the lists and units you use, so it can range from mediocre to awesome.

Dozer Blades wrote:Daemons and CSM used to all be rolled into one book so it's not a stretch to ally them together now.

Yeah but at the time Bloodletters had T4, fearless, Str5 3+ save and could assault the turn they where summoned, BT's where fething Str8 and had 4++ save with their 3+, Deamons where very different then now, and you had somekind of synergie between Marines and Deamons.

At the time i always had at least one unit of letters, and i always was playing either a BT or a Dprince, now?, its been since 4th that i don't use DPrinces or BT's and Letters are only when i need a 80pts unit to fill a gap in my list.

I don't expect Letters to become the murderers they where back then, i know it will not happen, since GW decided that Deamons should be a cheap rip off of Nids without anything cool( for the few cool things that Nids have at least).

But at least give BT's their dignity back with their Str 8?, its the only model in the game that had a high native Str since RT, and for some reason they nerfed it to Str6, why?, because Imperial players where fed up to loose their Chaper Masters and IC's from a Str 8 strike, thats why.

The most Bad Ass and Ripp of all Greater Deamons only has 1 point of Strenght higher then Posseseds and DPrinces, but on the other hand you have LoS that can go all Shaolin style with their staffs and have Str8?...

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

The most Bad Ass and Ripp of all Greater Deamons only has 1 point of Strenght higher then Posseseds and DPrinces, but on the other hand you have LoS that can go all Shaolin style with their staffs and have Str8?...

lmao, exalted for truth ^^

 Deadshot wrote:
Well if you think about it in those terms, the traitor legions lost a feth load when they split from the Imperium. Ie, Mechanicum support and resources, loyalty and back up from other Astartes groups and majority of the Imperial Guard/Army. With that in mind it really is Daemons and Chaos that's holding the traitors up to the Loyalists, fluffwise. A lot of their gear is outdated, or developed after their betrayal, such as Centurians or Stormravens for example. In that sense, those Legions should be requiring Daemonic assistance to take loyalists on. Look at which legions have the most power in the setting. Black Legion and Word Bearers, which have Daemonic assistance. The other legions like World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Death Guard and Emperor's Children are all upgraded by their god with enhanced toughness, berserker fury or speed in some form or another. Iron Warriors rely on vehicles but are matched by loyalist who have not only Vindicators, Predators and Land Raiders but also support from Imperial Guard and new designs like Crusader or Hunter/Stalkers. Alpha Legion don't really do upfront assault and Night Lords don't even have a Primarch or Abaddon to lead them so their pretty on-par with Loyalists.

Daemons and Chaos power is what gives Chaos an edge.

I'm sorry but this just plain wrong, and yet again, highlights the sheer hypocrisy of the Loyalist fan base...

Yes, the Traitor Legions lost their original support bases when they fled to the Eye. But, half the entire ****ing IoM went rogue with them!
We had millions of traitor Imperial Army units and their entire mobile support staff, the Dark Mechanicus who fled Mars, vast parts of entire star systems (including whole Forgeworlds) who packed up and fled as well, etc... All these assets either set-up within the Eye itself, or else scattered across the broken Imperium to form outlying stronghold within wilderness space.
Even within the Eye itself, there are entire Daemon worlds that are chaotic version of Imperial forgeworlds, whole planets of mutants & human renegades. Dark pacts are constantly sworn between the likes of the Dark Mechanicus or Fabius Bile to keep the Traitor Legions and various Chaos warbands well supplied.

This entire idea that Chaos Marines should have no toys of their own because, "lols, you guys left the Imperium" is just BS.

Look at the Iron Warriors daemonworld of Medrengard: the entire planet is pretty much just one massive series of fortress after fortress (each ruled by a Warsmith, who in turn still owes fealty to Purterabo), and these fortresses do nothing but churn out wargear, war machines & new potential Marines every single day!
And that's just ONE daemonworld.

If anything, Chaos should have bucketloads more unique and weird warp-fueled toys than Imperials, because the Imperium has stagnated and regressed for nearly 10,000 years
But nope, instead we have Imperials who are constantly "discovering" new (but totally old and we had it all along!) tech, on top of constantly stealing almost every single unique rule & toys that used to define Chaos. (Ironclads, Centurions, Grav, Librarian Conclaves, Skyhammer DS + Charge, now Wulfen being better Possessed)

And instead, when Chaos players rightly point out how spoiled Imperials have become, all we get are snide comments about how we have Daemons (which are literally down to about 3-5 viable choices now), and Khornekin (which is simply the Blood Tithe table and Hounds), and told off that we have all the tools we need.

Chaos players have a damn good reason to be eternally peeved, as we've been reduced to comedic Saturday morning cartoon villain for over a decade now. And guaranteed, the 'new' rules & formations that are coming in the CotW campaign book are going to do nothing to help out the major issues Daemons now have. (especially poor Tzeentch)

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Well if you think about it in those terms, the traitor legions lost a feth load when they split from the Imperium. Ie, Mechanicum support and resources, loyalty and back up from other Astartes groups and majority of the Imperial Guard/Army. With that in mind it really is Daemons and Chaos that's holding the traitors up to the Loyalists, fluffwise. A lot of their gear is outdated, or developed after their betrayal, such as Centurians or Stormravens for example. In that sense, those Legions should be requiring Daemonic assistance to take loyalists on. Look at which legions have the most power in the setting. Black Legion and Word Bearers, which have Daemonic assistance. The other legions like World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Death Guard and Emperor's Children are all upgraded by their god with enhanced toughness, berserker fury or speed in some form or another. Iron Warriors rely on vehicles but are matched by loyalist who have not only Vindicators, Predators and Land Raiders but also support from Imperial Guard and new designs like Crusader or Hunter/Stalkers. Alpha Legion don't really do upfront assault and Night Lords don't even have a Primarch or Abaddon to lead them so their pretty on-par with Loyalists.

Daemons and Chaos power is what gives Chaos an edge.

I'm sorry but this just plain wrong, and yet again, highlights the sheer hypocrisy of the Loyalist fan base...

Yes, the Traitor Legions lost their original support bases when they fled to the Eye. But, half the entire ****ing IoM went rogue with them!
We had millions of traitor Imperial Army units and their entire mobile support staff, the Dark Mechanicus who fled Mars, vast parts of entire star systems (including whole Forgeworlds) who packed up and fled as well, etc... All these assets either set-up within the Eye itself, or else scattered across the broken Imperium to form outlying stronghold within wilderness space.
Even within the Eye itself, there are entire Daemon worlds that are chaotic version of Imperial forgeworlds, whole planets of mutants & human renegades. Dark pacts are constantly sworn between the likes of the Dark Mechanicus or Fabius Bile to keep the Traitor Legions and various Chaos warbands well supplied.

This entire idea that Chaos Marines should have no toys of their own because, "lols, you guys left the Imperium" is just BS.

Look at the Iron Warriors daemonworld of Medrengard: the entire planet is pretty much just one massive series of fortress after fortress (each ruled by a Warsmith, who in turn still owes fealty to Purterabo), and these fortresses do nothing but churn out wargear, war machines & new potential Marines every single day!
And that's just ONE daemonworld.

If anything, Chaos should have bucketloads more unique and weird warp-fueled toys than Imperials, because the Imperium has stagnated and regressed for nearly 10,000 years
But nope, instead we have Imperials who are constantly "discovering" new (but totally old and we had it all along!) tech, on top of constantly stealing almost every single unique rule & toys that used to define Chaos. (Ironclads, Centurions, Grav, Librarian Conclaves, Skyhammer DS + Charge, now Wulfen being better Possessed)

And instead, when Chaos players rightly point out how spoiled Imperials have become, all we get are snide comments about how we have Daemons (which are literally down to about 3-5 viable choices now), and Khornekin (which is simply the Blood Tithe table and Hounds), and told off that we have all the tools we need.

Chaos players have a damn good reason to be eternally peeved, as we've been reduced to comedic Saturday morning cartoon villain for over a decade now. And guaranteed, the 'new' rules & formations that are coming in the CotW campaign book are going to do nothing to help out the major issues Daemons now have. (especially poor Tzeentch)

Except, y'know, I have a Chaos army (that can fit into CSM, BL, CS and KDK all at the same time), the fact that humans that turned with the legions are all dead because they have a lifespan of 80 years and are used as meatshields and sacrifices, the Dark Mechanicum don't have access to STCs or Forge World resources, and no matter how much they raid they cannot match the industrial output of a billion worlds all churning out soldiers. Plus, what you are actually building are dinobots, which are Daemons. And the fact the Imperium are REGRESSING, not REGRESSED. They are losing stuff all the time, but they are still able to repair stuff. Chaos Legions never had Razorbacks or Stormravens. Then you have the whiners who say "I want to play Chaos Legions!" But then whine about not having X new gear, which the Legions didn't have and scream "But renegades all the time!"
Also, Daemons ARE CHAOS' NICHE THING. Whether or not they are "viable" is a subjective term created by an increasingly competitive meta that just "has to win." All units are viable when used correctly, against the right enemy (except Mechanicus who suck balls). Just because you or others mathhammer to death everything to get the "optimal, take most universally useful list" doesn't make units useless. You say "KDK just gives us Bloodhounds" but that's bs too. You also get Bloodcrushers, Bloodthirsters (3 of them), Letters, Heralds, character versions, and Soul Grinders without dipping into your allies. Bloodhounds migtht be the best of them, but they are not the only things you get out of KDK.

Also, Tzeentch sucks and should stay in the ground along with Slaanesh, Blood for the Blood God

 Deadshot wrote:
Also, Tzeentch sucks and should stay in the ground along with Slaanesh, Blood for the Blood God

I couldn't think of a better way to top such a post, either.

Sigh.

You also seem a bit lost on some issues. Of course the portion of the imperial army that turned renegade during the Heresy should be dead by now (and I say "should" because things work differently in the Eye), but Imperial Guard regiments are constantly turning renegade, all the time. It's even stated in the fluff that entire platoons of imperial guardsmen going rogue are much more common than actual space marines doing so. The Dark Mechanicum not having access to STCs or "Forge World resources" is quite a bland statement, since at this stage the Dark Mechanicum has built its own Forge Worlds inside the Eye, and they've had 10.000 years to endlessly experiment, research old technologies and develop new nasty toys. Actually Chaos Space Marines should have access to way nastier and more destructive gear than Loyalists, even if also more unstable and dangerous. The only new toys CSM got in the last 15 years of game development were the Heldrake and the Dinobots; only the Dinobots are stated to be an actual "creation", and even then it seems to be a thing from the Iron Warriors alone, not the Dark Mechanicum.

For all its unending potential, CSM have received virtually nothing since the 3.5 codex, with the exception of Heldrakes in 6th edition, an overpowered and poisoned gift that shone like a diamond in the mud at the time of its release, and turned 6th edition Chaos into an almost monobuild codex (it was either Heldrake spam or going full Nurgle since the other marks suck). Then 7th edition came along and the Heldrake was rightfully nerfed. The Dinobots would have been incredible in 5th edition, the edition the 6th ed. CSM codex was written for, but arrived at a time when the tables had brutally turned for vehicles in general. As a whole, the current CSM codex is basically a codex from two-three editions ago.

Meanwhile, Loyalist Marines keep getting new shiny toys and new shiny models one edition after another. I think CSM players have earned the right to, at least, call this unfair.

 Deadshot wrote:
Except, y'know, I have a Chaos army (that can fit into CSM, BL, CS and KDK all at the same time), the fact that humans that turned with the legions are all dead because they have a lifespan of 80 years and are used as meatshields and sacrifices, the Dark Mechanicum don't have access to STCs or Forge World resources, and no matter how much they raid they cannot match the industrial output of a billion worlds all churning out soldiers. Plus, what you are actually building are dinobots, which are Daemons. And the fact the Imperium are REGRESSING, not REGRESSED. They are losing stuff all the time, but they are still able to repair stuff. Chaos Legions never had Razorbacks or Stormravens. Then you have the whiners who say "I want to play Chaos Legions!" But then whine about not having X new gear, which the Legions didn't have and scream "But renegades all the time!"
Also, Daemons ARE CHAOS' NICHE THING. Whether or not they are "viable" is a subjective term created by an increasingly competitive meta that just "has to win." All units are viable when used correctly, against the right enemy (except Mechanicus who suck balls). Just because you or others mathhammer to death everything to get the "optimal, take most universally useful list" doesn't make units useless. You say "KDK just gives us Bloodhounds" but that's bs too. You also get Bloodcrushers, Bloodthirsters (3 of them), Letters, Heralds, character versions, and Soul Grinders without dipping into your allies. Bloodhounds migtht be the best of them, but they are not the only things you get out of KDK.

Also, Tzeentch sucks and should stay in the ground along with Slaanesh, Blood for the Blood God

And no Marines have fallen to Chaos since the Heresy, right? Or the ones that have just said "huh, what's this thing I'm holding? Oh I shouldn't take this to the Eye with me, it's not spiky enough." Not to mention forgeworlds have fallen to Chaos, y'know where they manufacture this stuff, but I'm sure when they fell all of the stuff there just up and disappeared or was eaten by the forces of Chaos. Not to mention, CSM fight against the new fangled tech all the time and I guess they've decided it's better to lose to it then to adapt at all. We don't need exactly what SM get in regards to vehicles, but some dark, twisted similar version and what CSM get should be comparable to what's in C:SM for the same point value. And unless Chaos goes all to one book, it doesn't matter if Daemons are the "niche" thing, they are not in the CSM book, and that book should be able to stand by itself.

"Then you have the whiners who say "I want to play Chaos Legions!" But then whine about not having X new gear, which the Legions didn't have and scream "But renegades all the time!"

This !!!

 Dozer Blades wrote:
"Then you have the whiners who say "I want to play Chaos Legions!" But then whine about not having X new gear, which the Legions didn't have and scream "But renegades all the time!"

This !!!

Which is why there should be separate lists for Renegades and Legions

 Korinov wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Also, Tzeentch sucks and should stay in the ground along with Slaanesh, Blood for the Blood God

I couldn't think of a better way to top such a post, either.

Sigh.

You also seem a bit lost on some issues. Of course the portion of the imperial army that turned renegade during the Heresy should be dead by now (and I say "should" because things work differently in the Eye), but Imperial Guard regiments are constantly turning renegade, all the time. It's even stated in the fluff that entire platoons of imperial guardsmen going rogue are much more common than actual space marines doing so. The Dark Mechanicum not having access to STCs or "Forge World resources" is quite a bland statement, since at this stage the Dark Mechanicum has built its own Forge Worlds inside the Eye, and they've had 10.000 years to endlessly experiment, research old technologies and develop new nasty toys. Actually Chaos Space Marines should have access to way nastier and more destructive gear than Loyalists, even if also more unstable and dangerous. The only new toys CSM got in the last 15 years of game development were the Heldrake and the Dinobots; only the Dinobots are stated to be an actual "creation", and even then it seems to be a thing from the Iron Warriors alone, not the Dark Mechanicum.

For all its unending potential, CSM have received virtually nothing since the 3.5 codex, with the exception of Heldrakes in 6th edition, an overpowered and poisoned gift that shone like a diamond in the mud at the time of its release, and turned 6th edition Chaos into an almost monobuild codex (it was either Heldrake spam or going full Nurgle since the other marks suck). Then 7th edition came along and the Heldrake was rightfully nerfed. The Dinobots would have been incredible in 5th edition, the edition the 6th ed. CSM codex was written for, but arrived at a time when the tables had brutally turned for vehicles in general. As a whole, the current CSM codex is basically a codex from two-three editions ago.

Meanwhile, Loyalist Marines keep getting new shiny toys and new shiny models one edition after another. I think CSM players have earned the right to, at least, call this unfair.

Of course you can call this unfair. But some CSM players take it a step further and keep bashing Loyalist players, like we can control what GW does with our army

 Sersi wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Chaos has all the tools needed to dominate melee and its nothing new.

Okay...so we want to do it easier, better, cheaper, pick two. You know like all the loyalists do, without crutches like FW or allies.

If by "all the loyalists" you mean Thunderwolf Superfriends, sure. You try dominating someone in melee with Black Templars and then tell me how awesome and great the loyalist melee options are.

 Deadshot wrote:
Well if you think about it in those terms, the traitor legions lost a feth load when they split from the Imperium. Ie, Mechanicum support and resources, loyalty and back up from other Astartes groups and majority of the Imperial Guard/Army. With that in mind it really is Daemons and Chaos that's holding the traitors up to the Loyalists, fluffwise. A lot of their gear is outdated, or developed after their betrayal, such as Centurians or Stormravens for example. In that sense, those Legions should be requiring Daemonic assistance to take loyalists on. Look at which legions have the most power in the setting. Black Legion and Word Bearers, which have Daemonic assistance. The other legions like World Eaters, Thousand Sons, Death Guard and Emperor's Children are all upgraded by their god with enhanced toughness, berserker fury or speed in some form or another. Iron Warriors rely on vehicles but are matched by loyalist who have not only Vindicators, Predators and Land Raiders but also support from Imperial Guard and new designs like Crusader or Hunter/Stalkers. Alpha Legion don't really do upfront assault and Night Lords don't even have a Primarch or Abaddon to lead them so their pretty on-par with Loyalists.

Daemons and Chaos power is what gives Chaos an edge.

Yeah, I can see why loyalists would be better equipped. It's too bad this game doesn't have any kind of balancing mechanism to account for this. If only there were some way of assigning a higher value to units with better equipment so that they couldn't be taken in the same quantities as lesser units. If only... oh well!

 Deadshot wrote:
Then you have the whiners who say "I want to play Chaos Legions!" But then whine about not having X new gear, which the Legions didn't have and scream "But renegades all the time!"

I want to play Chaos legions. I don't want any new gear. I want OLD gear. Shifting the focus from the legions to random renegade warbands was the worst thing that ever happened to CSM. I liked CSM when they were Heresy-era badasses. The legions had character. Now they're just faceless mooks for the goodguys to kill.

So we get the worst of both worlds. No modern equipment because they only have Heresy-era tech (which for some reason seems to = modern tech minus the good stuff plus autocannons), but no veteran abilities because they're all recently turned renegades. But that's ok. The badguys don't need to make sense - just shoot them!

I hate renegades too. It is in my mind a screw over by Jervis Johnson supported by Phil Kelly. It's all about the legions and their fractured warbands. Thankfully there are other designers and Khorne is making a new splash. A smeg like Kelly does not have the necessary grey matter required to write good rules for Khorne. The new Bloodletters are a travesty.

Don't let the Kelly fan-boys hear you!

Those bastards !!! T3 1A Bloodletters... :(

nareik wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
As stated, that's very legion dependent. And meta dependent. A lot of the older metas still frown on things like allies and formations, since they are relatively new and blamed for the unbalanced state of the game.

but if we are blaming unbalance on relatively new things then perhaps chaos suffers unbalance because of the relatively new split they had into daemons and marines?

New? It was like 8 years and two codices ago in the 4th edition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Sersi wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Chaos has all the tools needed to dominate melee and its nothing new.

Okay...so we want to do it easier, better, cheaper, pick two. You know like all the loyalists do, without crutches like FW or allies.

If by "all the loyalists" you mean Thunderwolf Superfriends, sure. You try dominating someone in melee with Black Templars and then tell me how awesome and great the loyalist melee options are.

Nope. I play Black Templars to brother! They might be worse that White Scars and Ultramarines, but come on. CSM don't even have a Landraider Crusader, or any assault vehicles really. Or Ironclade Dreadnoughts in drop pods, or Gladius, or........I could gone on for all day. Now I'll give you the Black Tide isn't easy mode but its not the only play templars. Try doing something other than melee with CSM and watch as you get shot off the board.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Homeskillet wrote:

 Korinov wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
How is that so? I have had really good experience with these units. I can post up a list.

I can't wait for other one of those CSM lists of yours that so clearly prove the CSM codex is not that bad.

The Codex is bad, but that's not to say that there aren't ways to make some synergistic combos and to make lists that will win. I'm surprised this thread hasn't blown the servers with salted motherboards from all the tears of those who think it's unplayable. Like Dozer Blades, I play a CSM list that is quite competitive. Not LVO/Adepticon Championships competitive, but at any lesser event it would do just fine when played well. Too many people want a point-click, "I win" army. Go play Eldar if that's what you want, it's super easy; been there, done that.

I love how so many of the "your codex is fine - just L2P" arguments inevitably always accuse us of simply wanting an OP, 'I-Win' button codex like smEldar...

Here's a shocking concept: not Everyone wants to be shoehorned into playing Nurgle all the time just to stand a chance at even having a close game with actual Chaos Space Marines!

I just want to be able to field a Tzeentch army that doesn't get laughed off the table by even unoptimised Guard or Blood Angels for once...
I want to have options for once that allow me to field my army based off of Tzeentch's affinity for burning everything in sight. (seriously, why no Heavy + Hand flamers for us?)
I'd love to have a reason to take my Possessed & Warptalons as part of an actual CSM army, instead of them only being viable when taken as rejects within a Codex: Daemons army.

Most of all, I just want to see Chaos for once be treated with the same love & attention that every other MEQ army gets, instead of us continuously being gakked on with our identity forever being 'Marines -10'.
If Loyalists can get Chapter Tactics, then why can't we have similar fluffy rules for our iconic Undivided Legions/infamous Renegades? Where are our new toys? Why do Loyalists keep getting significantly better versions of our unique units?

But apparently, wanting to simply be treated as being equal to all the other Marine books automatically makes us a bunch of WaaC's TFG's.

I already said I acknowledge the Codex isn't good. However, that doesn't mean people want to hear all the internet uber-Generals complain. Work with what you have, get creative, and practice to become a better player. You want to play Tzeentch? Get creative and come up with some combos that play off that. My Alpha Legion isn't "shoehorned into playing Nurgle". I don't have a single marked unit in my list. I wanted to make a competitive list that fit within my vision for my Alpha Legion, and I did; the units synergize well and I play it well, and therefore I win more than I lose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:
The hostility probably came about due to his generalizations about people who disagree with him.

Nah, my generalizations were about people who complain without actually putting forth the effort to be better players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Battlesong wrote:
Basically as a CSM player, I ask for a level of parity. No, in a game like this there is no way to have perfect parity and I wouldn't want that anyway, but all of the codices should be able to at least compete on their own against other codices without having to add any other books. The CSM codex cannot stand on its own against a good portion of the other armies that are out there and that's the crux of the issue.

With help from Forgeworld, I feel like it can at least hang out in the shallower end of the big kids pool, lol.

I'm afraid it can't do that, since it drowned in a rainwater puddle.

I don't see how taking forge world makes you a better player, or suggesting that the csm codex is bad makes you a worse one.

The codex is what it is. Allies help, FW helps, sure. I don't think anyone is going to deny any of that.

But the csm codex is bad. I own a lot of armies and it's one of the worst armies I have on the table despite is being my favorite and best looking. Most of its options are just worst marine options outside of a few gems (spawn, bikes, demon allies).

I don't see how effort can be put forth to make the csm any better, or its players better. Unless you want a repeat of the mutilator thread, or people chiming in that warp talons are working as intended.

Well duh, of course. Haven't you noticed the large showing of CSM in tournaments where they use Alpha Legion and then supplement the Warp Talons and Mutilators?

OR you can actually look at the big picture instead of your CAAC locals.

BA sure are spoiled. Being part of IoM sure has worked out for them. BA: a list where warp talons and mutilators are fearsome opponents.