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The upfront cost is.

"You can run competitive armies out of this single Eldar codex."

Compared to.

"You can run competitive armies out of this Chaos Marine Codex, and this Expansion Codex, and this Daemon Codex, and this Forgeworld online only book, and this additional Forgeworld online only Expansion book."

 Dozer Blades wrote:
CSM is competitive with allies and Forgeworld. I recently went 3-0 at a local RTT not too long ago. Like I've said make due with all the tools you have available. Forgeworld has become much more mainstream so it's not an issue for many of us.

A) That wasn't the question. The question was, Is the CSM book (including black legion and Crimson Slaughter supplements) playable on its own without forgeworld units or Daemon Allies? Yes or no?

B) While it's fine for you and others who can use forgeworld, what about those who can't? Simply saying "buy 90% of your units from forgeworld" doesn't work if ALL forgeworld is banned.

C) If you are taking Daemon Allies, why not just take more Daemons and less csm and you'd have a stronger list, to the point where you're running pure Daemons (or Be'lakor and 10 cultists because you can't self ally)? There's virtually nothing in csm that strengthens Daemons, to the point where having any CSM just means diluting your list.

 Drasius wrote:

A) That wasn't the question. The question was, Is the CSM book (including black legion and Crimson Slaughter supplements) playable on its own without forgeworld units or Daemon Allies? Yes or no?

Definitely Yes.

It's playable in a casual meta, which is what pretty much all of the battle reports and army lists I've seen or been linked to suggest.

The second the game starts getting competitive, the army becomes mostly daemon, FW, or people just grab another army entirely like Eldar or SoB.

That seems to be the trend. I'd love to see a game where a CSM force goes up against a competitive list and wins but that just doesn't seem to be the case.

Unit to unit comparisons show that the CSM codex, outside of a few units which still aren't as good as the other codexes best stuff, is lagging behind the newer codexes by quite a ways. It's hard to argue that its anything close to a level playing field with anything more than "Well, I said so!".

Was Dark Angels competitive before their new codex ?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Was Dark Angels competitive before their new codex ?

No. I can't say I heard or saw a single DA army before January 2013, and even after that they're codex was lackluster, especially after Space Marines got their update later that year, Grey Knights and Wolves the following year and Blood Angels and Space Marines again.

DA had a brief moment when their dex released. They also had a moment I'm 6th where they were taken as allies for an Ig bubble involving their special character. I believe this was one of the first abuses of the allies matrix and people weren't thrilled about it, despite it not being too unfluffy.

Usually DA is seen as marines - 1 like csm. BA and SW are usually seen as marines +1 although I'm not saying either is the case currently.

Currently I think DA are back to ally status.

 welshhoppo wrote:
The upfront cost is.

"You can run competitive armies out of this single Eldar codex."

Compared to.

"You can run competitive armies out of this Chaos Marine Codex, and this Expansion Codex, and this Daemon Codex, and this Forgeworld online only book, and this additional Forgeworld online only Expansion book."

didn't Eldar have to pay twice for a codex though?

 koooaei wrote:

 Drasius wrote:

A) That wasn't the question. The question was, Is the CSM book (including black legion and Crimson Slaughter supplements) playable on its own without forgeworld units or Daemon Allies? Yes or no?

Definitely Yes.

Definitely not, as you haven't shown anything outside CAAC games where the results were still close. Then there's a matter of them just not showing up at tournaments for a reason.

So what. You can still play and win with pure csm against other pure codexes. It's just harder.

 koooaei wrote:
So what. You can still play and win with pure csm against other pure codexes. It's just harder.

If it makes you feel any better I played the first set of games in my club's kill team campaign last night. My first game was myself (Alpha Legion CSM) vs another person, also playing Alpha Legion CSM

I won that game, and also my second game against Orks. The other CSM player lost his second game against Harlies.

So now my CSM are both joint first (alongside another player who won two games with his Ultramarines), and the other CSM player is joint last (along with Orks, who lost both their games).

I guess that means that using this vast dataset, CSM are somewhere in the middle?

Well against orks, csm, csm, harlies I would imagine csm have to land somewhere in the middle

 koooaei wrote:
So what. You can still play and win with pure csm against other pure codexes. It's just harder.

Oh yeah, so long as the math skews in your favor heavily. Unfortunately, the other 66% of the time the math will be average or skewing in the opponent's favor.

Is it REALLY hard to accept that the codex is poorly written and not worth the paper it is printed on? The CSM codex has some of the most rewrites in the Proposed Rules subforum for a reason. Nobody wants an easy win; they want a codex that can fight evenly with the others and has no junk units. If you were to look at the internal balance of Necron, Eldar, and Space Marines codices you'll see that there's VERY few units not worth taking (Eldar codex has Storm Guardians and Wraithlords, and some say Vypers. The Necron codex has C'Tan and Monoliths. The Space Marines has Terminator variants and Land Raiders).

Every codex has units not worth taking. For example terminators are crap now. There are solid units in the CSM units - level 3 sorcerer on bike - oblits - plague zombies - heldrakes - a lot of the special characters - black mace prince. Personally I think Khorne has really come on strong lately with the new KDK.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
a lot of the special characters

You're joking, right?

I use Kharn a lot - he shreds SHW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nurgle Spawn are rock solid too.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
So what. You can still play and win with pure csm against other pure codexes. It's just harder.

Oh yeah, so long as the math skews in your favor heavily. Unfortunately, the other 66% of the time the math will be average or skewing in the opponent's favor.

Is it REALLY hard to accept that the codex is poorly written and not worth the paper it is printed on? The CSM codex has some of the most rewrites in the Proposed Rules subforum for a reason. Nobody wants an easy win; they want a codex that can fight evenly with the others and has no junk units. If you were to look at the internal balance of Necron, Eldar, and Space Marines codices you'll see that there's VERY few units not worth taking (Eldar codex has Storm Guardians and Wraithlords, and some say Vypers. The Necron codex has C'Tan and Monoliths. The Space Marines has Terminator variants and Land Raiders).

It's not so much that the CSM codex is horribly written...

The book was/is clearly still a mostly 5th edition codex. If it came out before 6th dropped, it would have played a lot better than it ever did from day 1.
Instead, it's always felt like 6th was pushed ahead, and thus, instead of holding back on the CSM codex and reworking it to properly fit into the new game system, GW decided to just forge ahead, and forced a few hastily bolted on rules to shoehorn a 5th edition book into the test best for 6th.
There's not much any writer could do when you're basically told to just 'slap on some extra bitz and who cares!'


Most of all, GW has left our model line to rot for over 10-15+ years when the book initially released.
Thanks to the Chapterhouse ruling, GW had already implemented the strict policy of not releasing any rules for models they don't/won't make. Our biggest issue that is our model kits are still stuck firmly in 3rd/4th edition as if we're still playing the same game that we did in the early 2000's!

Kelly had no ability to add in more options to our armoury, and that's our biggest downfall... While everyone else is able to load up on Grav guns, Scatter lasers, HYMP's, etc..., we're stuck with Autocannons and Plasma guns because that's the only thing available within our current model line up!
Likewise, we don't have any actual delivery systems, because unlike Loyalists, we don't have any model/s for things like a Chaos Drop Pod or 'Assault' class Rhino variant, let alone *any* potential Land Raider variant.

Instead, the model department gave us Dinobots, which while cool and finally begins the long process of differentiating us from those Loyalist scum, ended up with 5th ed scaled rules because our book was never designed around 6th edition like the later Tau/Daemon/Eldar books were. (and let's face it, that Forgefiend would have been nasty in 5th!)


We can keep going around in circles all day long, but the problem with Chaos Marines is quite simple:
1. The army is still shoehorned into playing the defunct 'Rhino Rush' infantry assaults of 3rd/4th edition.

2. The model line is absolutely ancient and lacks any form of modern weaponry.

The only way we can play a purely CSM list nowadays is to beg opponents to build an equally retro list and play down to our level. Otherwise, enjoy Codex: Nurgle + FW & Daemon friends.
Too bad if you're part of the other 90%+ of the Chaos fanbase who don't want to play exclusively Nurgle or superfriends.

Oh gosh we do have viable delivery systems... it is not drop pods or LR variants.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Filch wrote:
I wasted my money yet again. If I wanted to win, I should have bought eldar net list or necron decurion, or SM gladius, or tau tide wing.

Chaos won TSHFT with "renegades, chaos knight and a smattering of tzeentch daemons. All zombies and Thudd guns with rapiers for the renegades".

Don't you have a bunch of Chaos Knights and Zombies already? Save yourself some money.

Yeah because its logical that EVERYONE wants to play Zombies and Knights...

Dozer Blades wrote:CSM is competitive with allies and Forgeworld. I recently went 3-0 at a local RTT not too long ago. Like I've said make due with all the tools you have available. Forgeworld has become much more mainstream so it's not an issue for many of us.

But like we said a few times, not everywhere FW is welcome, and even in some places where they tolerate FW, you get a nasty look when you play a FW unit, even though its not that powerfull.

Dozer Blades wrote:Was Dark Angels competitive before their new codex ?

Bad example, since DA's are basically CSM...

Dozer Blades wrote:I use Kharn a lot - he shreds SHW.

.

For once i agree with you, still don't get why he lost his 2+ save from back then and EW and got down from 4W to 3...

Dozer Blades wrote:Every codex has units not worth taking. For example terminators are crap now. There are solid units in the CSM units - level 3 sorcerer on bike - oblits - plague zombies - heldrakes - a lot of the special characters - black mace prince. Personally I think Khorne has really come on strong lately with the new KDK.

There is a difference when a codex with 30 units as 5 bad ones, and a codex where they have 35 units but they have 13 bad ones...

And once again you give us the units that Works, but that people doesn't want as a CSM.

I play World Eaters( wich i will recap is not KDK, as it is stated in the Codex), should i play Sorcerors and Zombies because those are good units in your opinion?

What about the guy who wants to play Iron Warriors?, what good will zombies do for him?

Thats the problem, you quote 4 units that works in the whole codex on a competitive level, and thats whats wrong with this codex, it should be the other way around.

If the only lists/instance of a working and winning competitive CSM list you can give me as no CSM, and all revolve around Sorcerors, SHW, zombies and FW artillery units, then it is proof that the codex doesn't work on a competitive level without the NEED( not the option but need) of using outsiders, and thats what the topic is about.

Darn it barely works on a fluff/casual level.

KDK works because of BftBG and gak loads of Hounds, in some regards its exatcly the same BftBG=Sorceror, Hounds=Zombies...

I don't ever remember Kharn being 4W EW. For 160 points he gets the job done. Smashfecker clocks in at 250 points with all the toys so yeah Kharn is a great bargain for what he does.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I dont ever rememner Kharn being 4W EW. For 160 points he gets the job done. Smashfecker clocks in at 250 points with all the toys so yeah Kharn is a great bargain for what he does.

Kharn dies to a round of Krak Missiles EASILY. That's not a bargain.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I dont ever rememner Kharn being 4W EW. For 160 points he gets the job done. Smashfecker clocks in at 250 points with all the toys so yeah Kharn is a great bargain for what he does.

Kharn dies to a round of Krak Missiles EASILY. That's not a bargain.

Who ever puts Kharn by himself against a 'round' of krak missiles?

Exactly !

A big issue is that half the book is terrible and half the gods are really bad.

Lords are decent with certain builds but it's narrow
Sorcerers are good
Demon Princes again need a very specific build and pretty much has to be nurgle.
Warpsmiths are terrible over costed
Dark apostles are meh and at least 15 points to expensive.

Chaos Space Marines are terrible. There tactical squads with no grav weapons. Marks and Icons can make them better but they quickly become very expensive
Cultists are good for sitting on an objective and being a tarpit, that's pretty much it.

Chosen are over costed
Possessed are crappy
Chaos terminators are good for one thing, Suicide combi bombs. Great way to treat your vets.
Hellbrutes are meh as most walkers are
Mutilators are meh
Berzerkers are over costed and become more so with chain axes
Thousand Sons are horribly over costed
Plague Marines are good
Noise Marines are hamstrung due to the salvo rule

Rhinos are good
Chaos Bikes are good
Spawn are good
Raptors are meh
Warp Talons may be the worst unit in the game
Heldrake is still good

Havocs are meh
Obliterators are good but pretty much need a mark of nurgle
The defiler is horrible over costed
the Dino bots are pretty good
Land raiders are over costed.

All in All unless you want to play Nurgle your pretty much screwed at a competitive level. If you want to play Khorne at least you have another book, but Tzeentch and Slaanesh. Every power armor body you take in this codex is hurting you.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I don't ever remember Kharn being 4W EW. For 160 points he gets the job done. Smashfecker clocks in at 250 points with all the toys so yeah Kharn is a great bargain for what he does.

Before 4th Ed codex Kharn was.

4Wounds, 6Attacks, +D3 on the assault, Fnp 4+, 2+/5++, EW, could Run+Assault, Furious Charge was +1Str and Init at the time.

He was 180pts at the time, could only be taken in an army with at least one unit marked to Khorne.

Him in a unit of fully geared Chosen of Khorne in a Khorne dedicated Land Raider was the incarnation of Rape-Train, and there was no brakes on it...

To be fair though, back then, you could charge from one combat into another. That alone made any melee unit about a billion times better than today, and it rewarded you for taking off any brakes.

Inb4 mutilators and warp talons are good.

please tell that is sarcasm

HoundsofDemos wrote:
please tell that is sarcasm

It's either sarcasm or trolling....

Don't bring up the holy grail again, it will only bring tears.

We had a good delivery system for deepstiking as well with the marker and summon system. And my lovely armour and invulnerable ignoring daemon Prince......

But yeah. Kharn used to be bonkers, but then you were completely restricted in the Book of Khorne then, so no other marks at all for you.